amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-06-26 JISS CENTRE, PRETORIA 1 BHEKIZIZWE CHRISTOPHER MDLALOSE 5202/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54271&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200626jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. I apologise for the late start this morning. We had a few problems relating to one of the matters which took some time to try to resolve, which were unable to be resolved, so I apologise for any inconvenience. Before we start I would just like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Judge John Motata, he is an Acting Judge attached to the Transvaal Provincial Division of the High Court and a Member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Advocate Nsiki Sandi, also a Member of the Amnesty Committee and he comes from East London and I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Provincial division of the court. Mr Mapoma, which matter are we starting with? I have a whole pile here. MR MAPOMA Thanks Chairperson, I'm calling the matter of Bhekizizwe Mdlalose, application number 5202/97. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. I'd at this stage just request the legal representatives just to kindly place themselves on record? MS CAMBANIS May it please the Committee, I am Ms Cambanis, initial C, appearing on behalf of the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Cambanis. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Leader of Evidence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis, your client will be giving evidence I take it? MS CAMBANIS He will be giving evidence in English. CHAIRPERSON In English, thank you. BHEKIZIZWE CHRISTOPHER MDLALOSE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MR MAPOMA Excuse me Chairperson, before the testimony starts, I propose, Chairperson, for the record to make this announcement in this matter concerning the victim. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, we note that the applicant applies for a number of incidents, some of whom do not have a gross violation of human rights but there is an incident where there is one person, Constable T P Magalimele who was injured as a result of the attack which took place on the 23rd October 1987. The investigative unit, Chairperson, have tried their level best to get hold of this person I've just mentioned but unfortunately in vain. According to the records he was originally from the Free State. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAPOMA Now we have as a result instructed the media office of the TRC to issue a radio announcement for the victim to be located. As a result on the 21st June - I mean, firstly on the 7th June, the Nkwekwesi Radio, the CDC satellite broadcast, the Ukosi Radio of SABC, the Igwalagwala Radio made an announcement which requested the whereabouts of this person and then on the 21st June this radio announcement was again repeated. This has all been in vain, Chairperson, there is no response from the victim. In the circumstances, Chairperson, it is my submission that the Commission have done what could be reasonably done in the circumstances to notify the victim and I ask the Committee then to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in the circumstances, Mr Mapoma, it does seem that all reasonable steps have been taken to procure the victims presence without success. I think we can proceed with the matter. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, as appears from page 2 of the bundle at paragraph 9(a)(i), this applicant in fact applies for three incidents. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS In the notice that he received, reference was only made to the incident on the 9th January 1978 in which a police officer was injured but it is our request that this Committee consider all three incidents and the matter be finalised. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you'll probably find and I don't know specifically what the reason was but you'll probably find that that was the only one in which there was a personal injury and therefore it was the only one that strictly speaking in accordance - according to the provisions of the Act required a hearing but it would be more convenient, certainly from our point of view, to deal with all of them and we can give it in - deal with it in one decision than set the decisions. EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you. I'll proceed to lead the applicant. Mr Mdlalose, you are the applicant in this matter and you have completed an application form on the prescribed form which appears at page 1 to page 7 of the bundle in front of you. If you look at page 6 of that bundle, is that your signature at the bottom of that page? MR MDLALOSE Yes, it's my signature. MS CAMBANIS And across the page at page 7, it was attested to on the 27th April 1997, is that correct? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And do you confirm the contents of your written application? MR MDLALOSE Yes I do. MS CAMBANIS Is it further correct that a letter dated 4th April 2000 was forwarded to you by the TRC and I show you a copy of that letter. MR MDLALOSE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, that letter is not in the bundle but the response ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, I see that reference is made to it on page 8 in the response, your letter dated 4th April. MS CAMBANIS And is it correct that we consulted you and I consulted on the matter and responded to it and that those responses are contained in the letter dated 23rd May 2000, addressed to the TRC and that that appears at page 8 and 9 of the bundle? MR MDLALOSE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And do you confirm that the contents of page 8 and 9 is also correct? MR MDLALOSE Yes I do confirm. MS CAMBANIS Now Mr Mdlalose you say at page 1 of your application that you apply in your capacity as a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And you can assume that you underwent military training, is that correct? MR MDLALOSE Yes. MS CAMBANIS Where did you undergo military training? MR MDLALOSE I did my training inside South Africa in Swaziland before I left the country in 1977. MS CAMBANIS Both inside the country and outside the country? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And in your military training were you trained in the use of explosives? MR MDLALOSE Yes, I was trained in the use of explosives. MS CAMBANIS Did you also receive so-called political training? MR MDLALOSE Yes I did. MS CAMBANIS And could you tell the Committee, as part of the political training were you schooled in what the policies of the ANC were concerning so-called legitimate targets. MR MDLALOSE The policy was that we should at all costs try to minimise the loss of life. MS CAMBANIS So the incident - if I could take you to the incident in November 1977, you will see at page 2, that was an explosion that took place on the railway line between Dunswart and Apex. If you could just briefly tell the Committee about that incident, what you know about it? MR MDLALOSE The railway line between Dunswart and Apex, we set a mine there or sabotage the train. It was a form of economic sabotage. MS CAMBANIS And you say "we" who was we? Was there anyone with you? MR MDLALOSE Yes there was another gentleman I was working with. MS CAMBANIS And what is his name? MR MDLALOSE The name is Norman Ngwenya. CHAIRPERSON What was that surname again, Mr Mdlalose? MR MDLALOSE Norman Ngwenya. MS CAMBANIS And his name appears at page 8, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mdlalose. Sorry, Ms Cambanis. You said you put the bomb to sabotage a train. What was your intention? Was your intention to derail the train or did you - was it a mine that you could control the time of the detonation? MR MDLALOSE No, immediately the train passes then it triggers off the mechanism then the bombs went off. MS CAMBANIS And that is the incident in which there was no injuries or death? MR MDLALOSE I don't know whether there was any injury because I just left the mine and then left, what happened thereafter I don't know. CHAIRPERSON You didn't hear of any consequence of placing the mine. MR MDLALOSE No, what I read in the newspaper was that a train was derailed, a railway line was sabotaged, later on. MS CAMBANIS Mr Mdlalose, on page 11 of the bundle are the incidents reported from the Harms Commission and it refers to this incident in November 1997 and as we've gone through it there was no injuries or deaths in this incident as it appears from the Harms Commission information? MR MDLALOSE Yes I can see that here. MS CAMBANIS And then if we could move onto the incident in December 1977, the Benoni Station car park. Briefly again, could you just tell the Committee what the event involved? MR MDLALOSE November 1977 we planted a bomb in a car park in Benoni. This bomb was not intended for the car park but unfortunately, the place we intended to plant it at, by then there were full of people moving around there so we had to divert it to this railway car park station which was run by the Railway Police. CHAIRPERSON When you say "we"? MR MDLALOSE Together with Norman Ngwenya. MS CAMBANIS Mr Mdlalose and then as you say at page 8, Mr Ngwenya was arrested and convicted for both these incidents during 1979, is that correct? MR MDLALOSE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And then the last ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, Ms Cambanis? What was the effect of the bomb going off in the car park? MR MDLALOSE Pardon? CHAIRPERSON What was the effect of the bomb going off in the car park? MR MDLALOSE I don't know how many cars were affected. CHAIRPERSON But you also, as far you're concerned you didn't hear of any injuries? MR MDLALOSE No, no injuries at all. CHAIRPERSON Was this at night time or during the day, what was the situation? MR MDLALOSE It was during the day. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mdlalose, I'm not sure if you've already said, what was the idea behind diverting it to the car park? What had happened? MR MDLALOSE There was a filling station just nearby which was supposed to be our target but in seeing that there were a lot of people during that time we had to shift it to the railway line into the railway car park station. CHAIRPERSON So did you consider that the railway station, the car park was a legitimate target? MR MDLALOSE Yes it was because it was owned by the Railway Police. CHAIRPERSON So it wasn't just a public car park? MR MDLALOSE No, it was not to my knowledge. CHAIRPERSON It was the Railway Police had parked their vehicles? MR MDLALOSE No, to my knowledge it was not. CHAIRPERSON Sorry? MR MDLALOSE It belonged to the Railway personnel. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, Mr Mdlalose, what the Chairperson is asking you, whose cars were parked. It belonged to the Railways, was that considered a legitimate target? MS CAMBANIS And who used the car park facilities? MR MDLALOSE The Railway Police. MS CAMBANIS Then the third incident is January 1978 again at Dunswart Railway Station. Please tell the Committee what happened on that occasion? What was the plan first of all? MR MDLALOSE The plan was that we should - we were supposed to go together with the other guys, Ngwenya included, to plant this bomb, the bomb that we're having. MS CAMBANIS Before you proceed, it was Norman Ngwenya and who else on this incident? MR MDLALOSE The three other guys included in this incident. Wellington Pumisa, Linda Mulihome and Hamilton Hlohane. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, that appears at page 9 of the bundle. So please proceed? There was this group of five of you that proceeded to Dunswart and what happened then? MR MDLALOSE Yes, on our way to the said target we were confronted by these Railway Police and by then the bomb was trying to go off any time, I mean the time that we've set it. He asked us what we had - I mean there was no time to answer him so I pointed a gun and I shot him. MS CAMBANIS If you can just explain to the Committee what you're saying is at the time you were confronted by the police person you already had an explosive device detonated to go off at a certain time? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What was your delay, your time delay? MR MDLALOSE I can't remember well but it could have been about 30 minutes. MS CAMBANIS And do you know now, Mr Mdlalose, that this policeman suffered injuries as a result of the gunshot? MR MDLALOSE Yes I know it. MS CAMBANIS Mr Mdlalose, the explosives that were used, where did you obtain the explosives from for all three of these incidents? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Cambanis, before he answers that, sorry to keep intervening. What happened with your mine then? You've now got a mine that's set to go off. The policeman came and you shot him. What did you do with the mine? MR MDLALOSE I did activate it on our way when we were going back to our place. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Sorry Ms Cambanis. CHAIRPERSON The explosives used in these three incidents, do you recall where they were obtained from? MR MDLALOSE Yes I recall. We used to obtain them from Swaziland or in our DLBs - dead letter boxes. MS CAMBANIS So obviously the dead letter boxes were here in South Africa. MR MDLALOSE Being in South Africa. MS CAMBANIS So either you got them in South Africa from dead letter boxes or they were obtained from Swaziland? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you part of Special Operations or not? MR MDLALOSE No I was not. MS CAMBANIS Now Mr Mdlalose, at page 5 of the bundle, you refer to the fact that the overall commander of the machinery - sorry, under which machinery did you actually fall? MR MDLALOSE It was the Transvaal machinery. MS CAMBANIS And you state at page 5 that the overall commander of the machinery was Mr Sipiwe Nyanda, is that correct? MR MDLALOSE That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And we've showed, included in the bundle is the application of General Nyanda at page - I beg your pardon, page 13 onwards, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I was personally involved in that application so I'm aware of it. MS CAMBANIS And the incident at Dunswart is listed by General Nyanda at page 24, item 14 of the bundle. Is that correct? MR MDLALOSE Yes that is correct. MS CAMBANIS And then Mr Mdlalose, did you receive any payment or any material advantage for any of these operations? MR MDLALOSE No. MS CAMBANIS Is there anything further you wish to add and tell the Committee? MR MDLALOSE There's nothing else I wish to tell the Committee. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chairperson, that concludes the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Cambanis. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Judge Motata, do you have any questions? JUDGE MOTATA I've got none Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, do you have any questions? ADV SANDI No questions Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mdlalose, thank you very much, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicant has complied with Sections A in submitting the application in it's required form together with further disclosures. From the application of General Nyanda together with the submissions submitted by the ANC it is clear that all the acts for which he applies are acts associated with a political objective as set out by the ANC. The overall commander has taken responsibility in his applications as I've already said and finally, in terms of Section 20(c), this applicant has come forward and disclosed all relevant facts including the names of all persons who were involved, the modus operandi and everything that he knows about the application. In the circumstances I submit that this Committee shall give him amnesty in terms of Section 20. As the Committee pleases. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Cambanis. Ms Cambanis, we hand down written decisions which decision I'm sure would be handed down in the near future so in that respect we reserve the decision that should be in the very near future. MS CAMBANIS May we be excused, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Certainly. Thank you very much for your assistance. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, at this stage I would call the application of Yende and Phikwane but I don't see Mr Mbandazayo at this point. I wonder if the Committee cannot adjourn just for five minutes? CHAIRPERSON We'll take a five minute adjournment and then reconvene when you're ready and you can call us as soon as you're ready. MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Just let me get the bundle, it's Yende and Phikwane. I have that here, thank you very much. We'll take a short five minute adjournment before we start of the next application which would be that of Messrs Yende and Phikwane. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS