amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-27 JOHANNESBURG 2 JACOB MOLEKOA MAPONYANE AM2843/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54282&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200627jh.htm JACOB MOLEKOA MAPONYANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba? EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Maponyane, were you present when the robbery and the murder and attempted murder as explained by your co-applicants? MR MAPONYANE I was present, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Can you starting with the robbery, can you explain the role played by yourself? MR MAPONYANE I came with an information that I gave to my co-applicants that guns would be found at a particular place. We left and robbed at no 4 Otto Street, Illovo, at that particular house, and I was armed with a knife. When we entered, we instructed them to lay down. Mr Ngwenya led us in the operation. Then Mr le Krish volunteered to show us where the safes are, where guns are put. He went there, then he informed us that he is not able to find the keys. Then Mrs le Krish told us that she would go and ask the domestic worker to give them the keys. When they went upstairs, I went with them. We were shown the keys, they were given to Mr Ngwenya and then the small safe was opened, unlocked. She pointed out where a .38 was, on top of the wardrobe. After that I was given a .38 and .44 to take down because we, there was one person who was armed downstairs. That is when I went downstairs to hand over the gun. When I arrived downstairs, I found Muzi. I don't know as to whether he was going towards the door, then I returned upstairs to go and fetch other guns which we were looking for. When I returned on the stairs, I heard a gunshot outside. Then I returned downstairs, then I produced the firearm and shot with that gun several times. I am not able to recall how many times did I shoot. After that, I found an opportunity to escape. I ran away, I jumped the fence, I heard Muzi calling me near the bushes. We waited for others and then we discovered that Johnny was not there. Whilst we were trying to catch a taxi, Johnny complained about his car, that it will leave some trace, and therefore I decided that I would not slip my cousin in that situation, not knowing what happened to him. The three of us decided that we should return to fetch the car and look for Johnny, maybe he was injured. On our way back to the house, the police car approached. It passed through and pressed us towards a drive way, immediately thereafter they opened the door. I did not wait for a moment, I started shooting. Then they returned fire, I had the chance to escape, then I did. I met my co-applicants the following day in the township. I was the last time to arrive at that particular place having the .38. That is all Chairperson. MR MOHLABA How did you know that there were some firearms in that particular address? MR MAPONYANE One day together with my friends, we went to that particular house, we broke in, we found a .38 there, together with empty bags. At that particular house again, my mother was working at no 4 and my stepfather was working at the flats there. One day when I was at that particular flat, I saw le Krish's family carrying gun bags - that they have guns or firearms at that particular place. MR MOHLABA Evidence-in-chief, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA When you were leaving, running away from the house, how did you, what exit did you take? --- I went through the door, then I went through Wanderers' fence towards the golf club. MR MAPOMA That is the door through which you entered? MR MAPONYANE That is correct Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Where were your colleagues then? MR MAPONYANE Johnny and Elvis were there together with Mfanafuthi. The one, I did not know as to whether he was Muzi. MR MAPOMA When you went away, you left together, your an away together? MR MAPONYANE No Chairperson, we did not go together, at the same time. We followed each other. MR MAPOMA Yes, almost at the same time, that is what I am saying, you followed each other, leaving all of you at the same time? MR MAPONYANE I am not able to recall Chairperson, but what I recall is that the person I met at the golf course, is Muzi. After some time Mfanafuthi came together with Elvis. I did not see Johnny, as to whether where was he at that particular time. MR MAPOMA Thank you, no further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA None, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to ask? JUDGE MOTATA Yes, just relating to - you also made a confession? MR MAPONYANE That is correct Chairperson, I was assaulted and then I underwent operations. JUDGE MOTATA And you were accused 2 in court? MR MAPONYANE That is correct. JUDGE MOTATA Your confession on page 83 says that you heard from Johnny that there is a house with two safes, I will read it to you, it is in Afrikaans. INTERPRETER We have a problem with Afrikaans. "... I heard from Johnny that there was a house with two safes ..." (transcriber's own interpretation - no Afrikaans interpreters) CHAIRPERSON Perhaps, if you could read it in English, I think, because they have a difficulty ... JUDGE MOTATA Yes, I heard from Johnny that there was a house with two safes and if I listen to your evidence-in-chief, you said that you told your colleagues about this house? MR MAPONYANE In my confession, I am not able to recall because I was assaulted, agreeing to whatever was said to me. I agreed so that they should stop the assault. What is in the confession statement, is a lie. The truth is what I am saying today, that I am the one responsible for informing my colleagues about that particular house, I am the only one who knows Illovo better than anyone among us. JUDGE MOTATA You further say in your confession, that would be line 29, page 83, that is when you got there you said "we want jewellery and money". MR MAPONYANE As I have already stated that I was trying to protect myself and that they should stop assaulting me, that is what I told the Brixton police officers. I agreed to what had been said to me by them. JUDGE MOTATA They said you said when you arrived there, "we want jewellery and money", is that you were told by the police? MR MAPONYANE That has been said by the police. JUDGE MOTATA On page 84, line 30, were you told by the police again that you searched the safe for money and you found no money? MR MAPONYANE I was programmed by the police, I was assaulted and again I was confused in what I was saying. I did not know what to do during the assault. JUDGE MOTATA And again they told you to say that "I took the video machine"? MR MAPONYANE It is possible that it is so Chairperson, that I was instructed by them, because I am not able to recall. JUDGE MOTATA What was in this confession which you told them, if you say this is possible, because you are adamant in respect of the jewellery and money, you were told to say so in your confession by the police, but with this one, you are not certain? MR MAPONYANE All things which are in that confession, is a lie, because I was assaulted and I was confused. I agreed to anything which was said to me. What I am saying today, is the truth. JUDGE MOTATA That you parked the vehicle you had gone there with, amongst other houses, could that be a lie and you walked by foot to this house? Could that be a lie? MR MAPONYANE That is correct Chairperson, it may be a lie because we parked the car at Hard Rock Cafe parking area. JUDGE MOTATA That you jumped the wall and the door was open and you walked in softly? MR MAPONYANE It is true Chairperson, when we entered, we jumped the fence. JUDGE MOTATA And that the door was open as well? MR MAPONYANE That is true Chairperson, the door was open. JUDGE MOTATA And you walked softly into the house? MR MAPONYANE I am not able to remember Chairperson, there are dogs, immediately you enter, the dogs would bark. JUDGE MOTATA When you entered the house, who walked in first amongst the five of you? MR MAPONYANE Mfanafuthi Ngwenya entered first. He was followed by Muzi and followed by Johnny, I was the fourth. JUDGE MOTATA So that you couldn't have been told by the police, could you? MR MAPONYANE I am the one who was arrested first among my co-applicants. JUDGE MOTATA Then the police told you that you must say that Mfanafuthi is the one who walked in first, when you were the first to be arrested? MR MAPONYANE No Chairperson, I was the one who stated that fact. JUDGE MOTATA Because in the confession it says "... we said Mfanafuthi must walk in front, the reason therefore is that he carried a firearm". MR MAPONYANE Yes, it is possible that it is stated that way, because they observed that he was the one who was armed. JUDGE MOTATA Who observed that he was armed, because I am talking about your confession? MR MAPONYANE I was the one who knew that I was armed, and then again Mfanafuthi was armed. JUDGE MOTATA And you said the video you threw away? That you were told by the police as well? MR MAPONYANE That is correct Chairperson, I was told by the police. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, any questions? ADV SANDI Just one aspect Chair. Tell us about this other occasion you went to this house, when was that? MR MAPONYANE I don't remember Chairperson, it is somewhere in the beginning of 1991 or the end of 1990, I don't remember well. CHAIRPERSON You see there is mention in the judgement that the house was broken into about six months before you went in there with your co-applicants? Would that be about right? MR MAPONYANE It is possible Chairperson. ADV SANDI Who did you go with? MR MAPONYANE It was, I was with Tlhompo. It was the two of us. ADV SANDI What did you steal there? MR MAPONYANE We stole money and a firearm. ADV SANDI What did you do with that money and the firearm? MR MAPONYANE I sold the firearm. ADV SANDI Who had given you orders to do that? MR MAPONYANE It was not in accordance with instructions, it is because I did not have money to pay for school expenses, I went there to steal because I saw them taking a journey. ADV SANDI Okay. Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Why did you sell the firearm when your community so drastically needed firearms to protect itself? MR MAPONYANE It was not during that particular situation where the community needed it. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying it was all peaceful in Alexandra six months before you broke into the house in October? MR MAPONYANE Yes, there was calm during that time, because early 1991, we were able to enter the hostel and participate in various activities. CHAIRPERSON Any questions arising, Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA No thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. That concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA That will conclude the evidence for the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I am not calling any further evidence, except Chairperson, to point out that I have the details of the parents of the deceased person, that is Stephen Oosthuizen. The parents are Mr Nick Oosthuizen and Mrs Sylvia Vetter and c/o their daughter, Mrs Linda ...(indistinct). The address is 213 Hutchinton, 122 Harper Avenue, Benoni. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MAPOMA That is all Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any submissions to make Mr Mohlaba, or would you prefer to take the lunch adjournment now, I see it is ten past one? MR MOHLABA Please Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will take the lunch adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I will have a brief address only in respect of the proof of political motive. Chairperson, the applicants have indicated that they formed a structure themselves, which was not in line with the normal SDU's, that is the formation thereof, where mostly the SDU's will be formed by the ANC from its inception and guided by the ANC, the MK cadres. This was a particular one which obviously had the objective of defending the community against an identified enemy, and subsequent to that there is evidence that they were in contact with the ANC offices who did not tell them or instruct them to resist from conducting themselves as they did. We further heard that they requested that certain cadres should come and reside within their area, and their request was subsequently honoured. So Chairperson, I will submit that these people were not disowned by the ANC, they were doing exactly what the ANC wanted to see happening. Therefore they fall within the ambit. With respect to the element of disclosure, certainly Chairperson, there have been information which was given when they made their applications, which information was not accurate, and now they appear before the Committee and gave the true facts, that is portrayed the scenario as it unfolded without denying that they participated in the act of murder and attempted murder. Chairperson, that will be, I will submit that the element of disclosure is the, should be viewed at the moment when they sit before the Committee and what they disclose. The fact that they disassociated with their earlier statement, that is they did not want to stand by that previous statement, I submit that should not be construed as a ploy to try to hide certain things. I submit that the explanation given with regard to their earlier statement, is a plausible one and should be accepted by the Committee. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mohlaba. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I will leave it to the Committee, I am not arguing. NO ARGUMENT BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will be handing down a written decision in due course, which we hope to be as soon as possible and we accordingly reserve our decision in this matter. Mr Mohlaba, thank you for your assistance in this matter. Mr Mapoma, thank you. Which matter will we be hearing now? MR MAPOMA At this stage Chairperson, I am calling Aaron Mkhwanazi, AM7015/97.