amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-27 JOHANNESBURG 2 AARON MKHAWANAZI AM7015/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54283&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200627jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, we will now commence with the hearing of the amnesty application of Mr Aaron Mkhwanazi. At this stage I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson and the Committee Members, my name is O.P. Nyawuza, I am representing Mr Mkhwanazi in this application, thank you. MS VILAKAZI Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Commissioners. I am L.E. Vilakazi, representing the victims in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Vilakazi. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Nyawuza, are you going to be commencing with the leading of the applicant? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I will, but before that Chairperson, I wish to address the issue of the gentlemen that the Committee sees sitting with us at this table. MR NYAWUZA They are implicated persons in this application. The gentleman, the third from me, the one who stood up, is referred to as Tait in the applicant's affidavit and the gentleman at the far right, is referred to as Ernest Pule, a Commander at that time. My instructions, Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members are that all these gentlemen did apply for amnesty for this particular matter, and I have in my possession a letter from the TRC that confirmed acknowledgement of receipt of the application form by Tait, but the gentleman on the far right, Mr Ernest Pule did not receive any confirmation relating thereto. CHAIRPERSON Have you got that letter? MR NYAWUZA Yes, I have it. CHAIRPERSON If we can just see it Mr Nyawuza. Thank you. Sorry, Mr Nyawuza, Tait, is Tait and Mr George Koloi Sibanyoni the same person? MR NYAWUZA Yes, that is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You confirm that Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you know anything about this aspect? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, unfortunately it is only now that I hear of it, I have not had an opportunity now to check with Cape Town what the position is. I don't know, I would need some time Chairperson, to communicate with the Head Office in Cape Town. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, Mr Pule, has anybody made any enquiries to the TRC relating to both Mr Sibanyoni's and Mr Pule's application? Sorry, are you Mr Pule, or is that a pseudonym, is that your real name? Have you made any enquiries at all regarding your application, I just want to find out because Mr Mapoma, as he says, will have to make enquiries, so we just need some information? MR PULE I didn't make any enquiries specifically, because we had spoken to the lawyer in Pretoria who had confirmed that we would be called very soon. We were then given notices that we would be appearing as from yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Yes, as implicated people, but not applicants? Have you got your notices? MR PULE Yes, I have my notices. CHAIRPERSON I am sure they will be for the implicated persons, won't they Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, they are not as applicants as such. Mr Pule, can you recall more or less when you applied, was it at the same time as Mr Sibanyoni? I see Mr Sibanyoni applied at least before May 1997, because this letter acknowledging receipt is dated the 28th of May 1997? MR NYAWUZA Chairperson, if I may come in to clarify that. In actual fact Mr Sibanyoni's application form was given to Mr Pule to submit to both the applications were submitted on the same day and further to that, Mr Pule was the one who is the first person to make a statement relating to this application. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule, when you say you submitted the application with Mr Sibanyoni, together with Mr Sibanyoni's, how did you do it, did you post it or did you go into one of the TRC offices and hand it per manu, by hand? MR PULE We did our applications sir, through Paula McBride who was then supposed to be representing us, and she is the one who had submitted our applications through to Cape Town. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Sibanyoni and Mr Pule, their applications relate to the same, are they the same as Mr Mkhwanazi's or is it other incidents as well? MR NYAWUZA That is so. Their applications relate to this application, in actual fact, they are amazed as well, that they were not called as co-applicants, but as implicated people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I am sure Mr Mapoma is as amazed as they are and as we are? What do you want to do now, Mr Mapoma, you will obviously have to look into this? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, I will propose that this matter stand down, so that I can communicate with the Cape Town office to find out what the position is. Alternatively in the meantime while the enquiries are still taking place, I will call the other matter to proceed with, whilst the enquiries are taking place, and then thereafter this matter will once again be reinstated. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because - if it is, depending, there probably wouldn't be, if it is exactly the same incident, the necessity for any further investigation, would there? MR MAPOMA No, no, all that would be necessary Chairperson, is just to find out whether it cannot be confirmed. CHAIRPERSON To get numbers, we've got one number and then just to, I think the main thing is really with regard to Mr Pule's application, because at least here we have a number. MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I wonder if you couldn't make a photocopy or arrange for a photocopy of this letter to be made and then you can quote this number and I am sure that Mr Pule's number should be very close to that number, seeing they were submitted together. MR MAPOMA Yes, it must. CHAIRPERSON I do know from the Attorney mentioned by Mr Pule, that quite a number of applications were forwarded by them. I am sure something should be able to be found. Maybe it was just a glitch, I cannot explain why it is not before us, I just cannot begin to explain why not. Unfortunately Ms Vilakazi and Mr Nyawuza, we will have to stand this down for a while, while Mr Mapoma gets in touch or sets the machinery in motion to communicate with our Cape Town office and we hope this can be sorted out as soon as possible. MR NYAWUZA We don't have a problem, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mapoma, what do you want to do now, do you want to stand this matter down for a while and go on with the other, or do you want us to take a short adjournment, what do you want to happen now? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, I would propose that I stand this matter down and then in the meantime whilst the TRC staff are ... CHAIRPERSON Then we carry on with the next one. Yes. We will stand this matter down and in the meantime while enquiries are being made, we will proceed with the other application. I apologise for the inconvenience caused by this delay. MR MAPOMA Unfortunately Chairperson, the legal representative, oh, is here, is Garane. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we will now then proceed with the application of Mr Sandile Garane, that is application no 5474.