amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-27 JOHANNESBURG 2 SANDILE BIRMINGHAM GARANE AM5474/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54284&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200627jh.htm CHAIRPERSON May I ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record? MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. The name is Vuka Mohlaba, I am appearing for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mohlaba. MR MAPOMA I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAPOMA Chairperson, before we commence, the issue regarding the victims in this matter is as follows: the Investigative Unit have been trying to locate victims in this matter, but all in vain. In fact the report that has been prepared by the Evidence Analyst is as follows "... all the efforts to locate the victims, have been unsuccessful, however the IFP have been notified as an interested party and has met with the community regarding the incident or search for the possible victims. Advertisements for the victims via radio station for one month prior to the hearing, has been made. I have been in contact with the IFP regarding the applications since mid-June and they are well aware of the hearing." I may add Chairperson, to say that we have also spoken to Mr Abram Mzizi, who is an IFP leader in this area to try to get his assistance in this matter. He himself has reported to us that he cannot be able to find the victims in this matter, but the victims are said to have been members of what was called the Toaster Gang. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. It would seem that reasonable steps have been taken to establish the whereabouts of the victims and that there has just been no success at all. MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think in the circumstances, we should proceed with the application. MR MAPOMA As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba, will you be leading the evidence of the applicant? MR MOHLABA That is correct Chairperson, and he elects to give his testimony in Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. SANDILE BIRMINGHAM GARANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba? EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Garane, you are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty for an offence of killing somebody, is that correct? MR GARANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I see it is murder and attempted murder, is that correct? MR GARANE That is correct. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. Do you know the person who was killed, and the one who you attempted to kill? MR GARANE No, I don't know their names. MR MOHLABA And you are applying for amnesty on the basis that these offences were committed with a political objective. Did you belong to a political organisation during this period, that is during 1993, the period September and October? MR GARANE That is correct. MR MOHLABA Which organisation? MR GARANE The ANC. MR MOHLABA What was your position there, were you a member of MK, were you - can you just explain, what was your position there? MR GARANE My position, or let me say in 1990 we established the SDU's in our section resulting from the violence that we were facing. Our section is just in front of the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed Mr Garane, whereabouts was this? Which place? MR GARANE Sangwane Section in Tembisa. As I have indicated, Sangwane Section is next to the hostel and there was violence in Tembisa. There was a need for us to establish SDU's, and as a member of the ANC, we had a meeting in our section, after which the SDU's were formed, which SDU's, I became a member of. On the day of the establishment of the SDU's, the question was raised as to what we were going to use to defend ourselves, because the people were armed. It was suggested that money be raised and each household contributed some money, which were to be used in purchasing arms and ammunition towards the protection of the community. In the process the violence continued, so that in 1993 we were deployed at the shops at Sangwane Section. It was roundabout seven o'clock in the evening, just before closure, and we heard gunshots at the taxi rank, next to the shops. Myself and my companion, Vusi Mavuso saw some people running towards the shops. CHAIRPERSON Who was with you? MR GARANE Siphiwe Mavuso. CHAIRPERSON You heard shots and you ran towards them? MR GARANE We heard gunshots and we saw a group of people coming towards us at the shop. CHAIRPERSON How big a group? MR GARANE It was not a big group, but it was a mixture of males and females, they were coming towards us, apparently fleeing. As we were trying to establish what was happening, we saw two boys coming towards our direction and we took different positions. Siphiwe took his own position and I did so as well. They fired a shot, two shots towards us, and I hid behind a post, the kind of posts that are used for advertisements. CHAIRPERSON When you say boys, what do you mean, "umfanzu", young men or ... MR GARANE They were a little bit matured, I am not talking about young boys. CHAIRPERSON You are talking about young men? MR GARANE Yes. That is correct. They fired two shots at us, and I responded with two shots. One of them ran away and fell, and the other one ran away and Siphiwe ran after the other one, and I was still hiding behind this lamp post, waiting for this one, the one who had just fallen down. Siphiwe came back without having apprehended the one who was fleeing. We took the firearm from the one who was laying down and we fled. We went to report at our Headquarters where our Commander was, Mzwakhe Radebe. We reported to him what transpired at the shops, and he said he knows that now that such a thing had happened, the people from the hostel might come and launch an attack. We withdrew other units from where we had deployed them, to be stationed in that strategic point. That is where we deployed these members, waiting for this apparent attack, because one of these two people had fled, and we feared that he might go and report to his own people and we waited for them there. They didn't come. CHAIRPERSON Mr Garane, this person that you reported to, what was his name, Mr Radebe, what was his first name? MR GARANE Mzwakhe. CHAIRPERSON What was he, I mean what position did he hold in that area? MR GARANE He was the Overall Commander as the SDU's. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba? Sorry, just one question before you move on. This person that fell after you shot him and the one from whom you took the firearm, when you went up to where he was laying and took the firearm, was he still alive or don't you know, or did he appear to be dead? MR GARANE I didn't get to him, the one person who got to him was Siphiwe, because he was coming back after running after the one who was fleeing. CHAIRPERSON Was he laying there still, just not moving? MR GARANE Yes, he was just laying there. CHAIRPERSON And I presume that is the person who you apply for amnesty in respect of murder, he must have died? MR GARANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the attempted murder, obviously is the one you shot at, but ran away? But you don't know whether you hit the other one or not? MR GARANE I cannot say whether he got shot or not. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. What did you do with the firearm which you took, which was taken from the person who was laying down? MR GARANE Procedurally within the SDU's, we had to take such a firearm to our Overall Commander, Mzwakhe. MR MOHLABA Do you know what happened to it ultimately after you took it to Mzwakhe? MR GARANE I cannot say what happened to the firearm thereafter. MR MOHLABA Were you ever arrested for having shot at these persons? MR GARANE No. MR MOHLABA Evidence-in-chief, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mohlaba. Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just a few Chairperson. Have you ever been a member of Umkhonto weSizwe? MR GARANE Correct. MR MAPOMA Where did you train, inside or outside the country? MR GARANE Inside the country. MR MAPOMA When did you undergo your training? MR GARANE In 1987. ADV SANDI Where was that inside the country? MR GARANE We trained underground at the Katlehong cemetery at night. CHAIRPERSON By meaning you trained underground, I take it you didn't go into the graves and train, you trained on top of the ground, but secretly? MR GARANE Yes, on the graves, not under the graves. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba? Mr Mapoma? MR MOHLABA Thank you Mr Chairperson, I don't have any further questions. MR MAPOMA No further questions, Chairperson, that is it. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON No re-examination, Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA None, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? JUDGE MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Adv Sandi, any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? ADV SANDI Yes, just by way of clarifying something. Do you know if this incident was perhaps covered in a newspaper article or any form of media? MR GARANE I am not quite certain. ADV SANDI Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Did you at any stage learn that the person who was laying down after you shot him, in fact died? MR GARANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON How did you get that knowledge? MR GARANE We learnt from people as they were talking, you see, we would not tell these people what we did the previous day, because we were fearing arrest, but we heard from people, yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mohlaba, any questions arising out of questions put by the Panel? MR MOHLABA None, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA None Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Garane, thank you, that concludes your evidence. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA That will be the evidence for the applicant, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I have no further evidence, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, would you like to make submissions? MR MOHLABA I have no address, Chairperson. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Other than that you are asking for amnesty? MR MOHLABA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No, no address, Chairperson. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON As you know, it is the policy that we hand down written decisions in this matter. One will be done as soon as possible and our decision will be known when we hand down the written decision, but it will be in the near future. Thank you very much. Do you want a short adjournment now, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, I would appreciate that. CHAIRPERSON You can find out what has happened with regard to Mkhwanazi and others. MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will take a short adjournment, just to find out what has happened about Messrs Pule and Sibanyoni's application. Mr Mapoma, if you would just let us know when you are ready, we will recommence then. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS