amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-27 JOHANNESBURG 2 ERNEST LEKOTO PULE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54285&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200627jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. During the short adjournment that we have just had, we have learnt that there is an application from Mr Pule at the TRC offices and I think in the circumstances, although we don't have it before us, it would be practical and wise to proceed with the matter as regards to Mr Pule, as an applicant. We will obviously have to resort to the actual application before making a final decision. As you know, one of the requirements for the granting of amnesty is that the application itself, complies with the requirements of the Act, namely that it was submitted timeously, filled in correctly, etc. So we would have to have recourse to that before a final decision would be made, but it would be practical to hear him now. With regard to Mr Sibanyoni, it has also been established that there is an application, but also a decision refusing the application on the grounds of, in chambers, on the grounds of no full disclosure. The application of Mr Sibanyoni relates to the exact same incidents as that of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Pule. After having discussed the matter with Mr Nyawuza, the applicants' Attorney, Mr Mapoma and Ms Vilakazi, we have decided that in the circumstances, it would also be practical for us at this stage, to hear the evidence of Mr Sibanyoni. Then we would have to make enquiries regarding that decision and see what can be done after that, but we as a Panel don't have any power or jurisdiction or authority to set aside decisions here, we would have to, if it is going to result in some sort of gross injustice regarding Mr Sibanyoni, refer the matter to the Amnesty Committee as such and try to resolve the matter if it falls to be resolved. I think if we can proceed on that basis then. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, I am going to start with Mr Pule, with the evidence of Mr Pule. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule, what are your full names? MR PULE My full name is Ernest, second name is Lekoto. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just spell the second name or just say it again? MR PULE Lekoto. Pule. MR NYAWUZA Mr Chairperson, Mr Pule, would give testimony in Tswana. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Tswana is channel 4. Mr Pule, can you hear me now? MR PULE I hear you Chairperson. ERNEST LEKOTO PULE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyawuza? EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. Mr Pule, where are you presently resident? MR PULE I am staying at Delville in Germiston. MR NYAWUZA Is it correct that you applied for amnesty for an incident that occurred on the 31st of July 1990, at Braklaagte? MR PULE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA At the time of this incident, what were your political affiliation? MR PULE I was a member of the African National Congress, Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA What capacity were you in? MR PULE I was a member of the ANC and again a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR NYAWUZA On the 31st of July 1990, an incident occurred at Braklaagte. Can you briefly tell us what happened and how you got to do that? MR PULE In 1988 and up to 1990, in Bophuthatswana, there was violence at that particular time. CHAIRPERSON Do you mean political violence? MR PULE That is correct. It is because people of Braklaagte were not prepared to be incorporated into Bophuthatswana. Mangope's government wanted to force those people to be amalgamated in his government during that time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule, could you just enlighten me, whereabouts is Braklaagte? MR PULE From Zeerust to Botswana, to Botswana's border, you pass through Braklaagte. It is about 24 kilometres from Zeerust on your way to Botswana. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NYAWUZA (microphone not on) MR PULE We, as members of Umkhonto weSizwe, we were observing the situation in Bophuthatswana then. At that time, I was in Botswana and I was one of the Commanders of MK. I sent Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Sibanyoni to go and observe the situation there. It was the beginning of July when I sent them to do reconnaissance, and then again as to whether it would take again the location of the South African Defence Force and the South African Police, as to whether where do they stay, or their camps. CHAIRPERSON So, it was only a question of looking at the South African Defence Force and South African Police, not the Bophuthatswana Police? MR PULE It was to make reconnaissance for all Security Forces, because both the Bophuthatswana Police and the South African Police and the South African Defence Force, would be involved. They were going to reconnoitre the movements of all Security Forces members there. MR NYAWUZA So is it correct that the reconnaissance was made, Mr Pule? MR PULE That is correct Chairperson, they were done. MR NYAWUZA And then after the report back from you, what subsequently happened? MR PULE After they returned in Botswana, we sat down and they gave me a report about their reconnaissance, then as to whether what kind of firearms would be needed in the operation. When they left, I was with them, we were five in number. ADV SANDI Maybe before you get there, you should tell us what report was given back to you? MR PULE The report included that the Security Forces used to patrol in the village to verify that people are not lingering around or are involved in mass action activities because people were fighting back with stones. The two gentlemen I sent, came back with a report that other than the patrols which were made by Security Forces, the members of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force had a camp in Braklaagte. That is the camp which we planned to attack. MR NYAWUZA So you earlier on referred to arms, what kind of arms were you going to use in attacking this camp? MR PULE We had AK47's, Bazooka's and handgrenades. MR NYAWUZA How many? How many Bazooka's, how many AK47's? MR PULE We had two Bazooka's. Each and everyone had an AK47 and two to three grenades, each. MR NYAWUZA How did you get into South Africa, because you referred us that you were in Botswana, how did you get into South Africa? MR PULE Before, other than making observations about the whereabouts of the camp of the BDF, they engaged other people to help us through the border of Bophuthatswana. We crossed the fence, because they knew where we were going, and then again we went to those people who were assisting us, to give us accommodation, so that the following day we would be able to prepare the attack itself. MR NYAWUZA So Mr Pule, in essence you are saying you infiltrated South Africa on the 30th of July 1990, is that so? MR PULE That is correct Chairperson, we crossed the border on the 30th, in the evening. MR NYAWUZA And the 31st of July 1990, what happened? MR PULE On the 31st, we hoped that we would get transport from one of them who was working inside, that would be the transport we would be using in the evening when we will be attacking. In the afternoon we realised that the person was not coming, and therefore we were going to be late. Because of that reason, I sent Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Tait and the other person whom I don't know where he is, to go and look for transport. They were supposed to look for any kind of transport, even if it meant hijacking. Even if they were to look, they would seek a lift from somebody and hijack his car, that would be in order. After they hijacked a car, they came to us and picked us up where we were hiding. We took our arms and we went to that particular location in Braklaagte. MR NYAWUZA How far were you from Braklaagte, because I hear you say you went to a particular location, how far were you from Braklaagte, your hiding place? MR PULE I estimate approximately 20 to 30 kilometres, because it was not far from the border of Botswana and we were going towards Zeerust. That is where Braklaagte is. It takes time to get there. MR NYAWUZA Mr Mkhwanazi and Tait, who we today know as Sibanyoni, came to pick you up and what happened? MR PULE After they picked us up, we took our arms and then we went to Braklaagte. When we arrived at Braklaagte, we saw the camp, that is the camp that we were supposed to attack. Whilst we were preparing to disembark ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Pule, this camp, was it Police or Defence Force? MR PULE Then we thought it was used either, or at times by police or at times by the soldiers. MR NYAWUZA In what way were you going to attack this camp, were you going to bring this camp down or were you going to walk into this camp, use whatever ammunition you had, in what way? MR PULE The intention was to go there and attack with the AK47's and Bazooka's and the handgrenades. When we came nearer to the camp, we were disturbed by two vans which were coming from the front. When we saw those vans, we instructed the driver that he should not stop because we wanted to stop near the gate, he should pass a little, so that we would be able to watch the movement of those two vans. After they passed, we realised that those cars belonged to the camp. They passed us. We went a little bit further down, about 100 meters. One car, of the two cars, returned before it entered the camp, and then followed us. At that time, because we were ready to shoot, we decided that if they were going to stop us, we were going to shoot at them. Unfortunately they did not stop at the back, they stopped at the right hand side, about 20 metres on the right hand side. MR NYAWUZA What kind of a van was this, is this a huge van or the usual police vans that you see, the small ones? MR PULE If I remember well, it is a Ford or a Mazda. It was a bakkie, that is a 1 Tonner. Unfortunately they did not stop at the back as we thought, so they came on the right hand side, therefore we disembarked, being ready with our arms. Immediately we started attacking them before they started attacking us, because we were ready, then we started shooting. MR NYAWUZA Did you shoot indiscriminately, or you aimed at a specific person? Did you shoot indiscriminately at the van, or did you aim specifically at a particular person? MR PULE It was at night, so you will not be able to verify to shoot a particular person. We just gathered that any person that is within that van, is our enemy, therefore we attacked indiscriminately. Because the car was not, it was near us, we did not use Bazooka's, we used the AK47's. MR NYAWUZA At what time of the night was this attack undertaken? CHAIRPERSON The question was at approximately what time of the night did this happen? MR PULE Approximately half past eleven, to twelve o'clock, at night. MR NYAWUZA This police van, were you able to see that it was a police van, what gave you the indication that this was a police van, was it marked or it had a particular colour that you could attach to the Police Service at the time, or the SANDF or the Bophuthatswana Police? MR PULE We saw it clearly, we were able to identify that it was a police van, even though it was at night, because it had some, it was the same as the cars which were used by the Bophuthatswana Police at that time. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, you testified that you disembarked from your motor vehicle and then fired at this police van. What subsequently happened, did this people fire back at you, you fired at them, and what happened? MR PULE The way we disembarked and started shooting, there was no way where they would be able to retaliate or return fire, so no one had a chance to return fire from that van. So therefore, there was no gunshots from that van because our fire power was strong. MR NYAWUZA What happened after the shooting? MR PULE I took a decision as a Commander that we should retreat from that area immediately, because we did not know at the camp, are they ready or not, as they heard gunfire from the shooting. MR NYAWUZA Your retreat, tell us about your retreat? MR PULE We retreated not with the road we used, we went further down on the other side of the camp, so that they would not be able to make a counter attack. Then we returned to the road we used, but on the other direction. MR NYAWUZA And then what happened? MR PULE After we returned, we went around Motswedi, we went near the border fence, we disembarked from the car, we left everything, the keys and everything we found in that car, and we left it there. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, do you regard the incident that happened on the 31st of July 1990, at Braklaagte, as an incident that is politically motivated? MR PULE Yes, it is true that it is related to political activities, as I have stated earlier that Mangope was pressurising and the South African government was pressurising that Braklaagte's community would be amalgamated to Botswana. MR NYAWUZA Do you feel that the incident that occurred on that particular day, had an effect on what subsequently happened to Bophuthatswana? MR PULE Please repeat your question. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, your testimony is that you attacked the police officers who were based in Braklaagte because they were insisting that Braklaagte should be incorporated into Bophuthatswana and some sections of the community were against that. Was Braklaagte subsequently incorporated into Bophuthatswana or not? MR PULE In terms of my recollection, that was not possible, because other than the attack, the Braklaagte community were fighting and challenging the incorporation to Bophuthatswana. MR NYAWUZA So you believe your attack on this thing, had an effect on Braklaagte not being incorporated, is that so? MR PULE I believe that strongly Chairperson, because the Braklaagte community were strengthened, because they realised that they were not alone in challenging the Bophuthatswana government in their denial to be incorporated into Bophuthatswana. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, were you financially reimbursed for this particular action that you took on that particular day? MR PULE As members of the ANC and as members of MK, we were fighting without any benefit, because we knew that we were fighting on behalf of all South African citizens, in Bophuthatswana, in Venda, in Transkei. We did not hope to be reimbursed later. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, what is your present occupation, are you still with the ANC, or are you somewhere else now? MR PULE I am still a member of the ANC, although I am no more active, because I am a member of the South African Defence Force. MR NYAWUZA Will I be correct if I say on your coming back to the country, you were incorporated into the present SANDF? MR PULE When we returned, we who were members of MK, we were integrated with the South African Defence Force and Bophuthatswana Defence Force and Transkei, and Venda Defence Forces. MR NYAWUZA Mr Pule, is that your evidence as regards the incident that happened on the 31st of July 1990? MR PULE Yes, but I wanted to say something to the relatives of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule, I don't mean to interrupt, but before you get to that, if we can just get some evidence. Did you learn whether people were killed or injured as a result of the attack on that motor vehicle? MR PULE Yes, I learnt that after, we read in the newspapers and listened to the newspapers, so that we would be able to be briefed about what happened. CHAIRPERSON As far as you know, what were the casualties? MR PULE As we knew that during the Mangope and apartheid government's reign, we would received a sifted information, because if people were affected, they would put a propaganda that three people were affected, not ten, or nine. We would read the newspapers saying that we learnt that so many people had died, but we knew that it was not true. We would get the real information later. CHAIRPERSON What information did you finally end up having, what do you believe happened, as you sit here now, what do you believe the casualties were as a result of that attack which you have just described? MR PULE I know very well that four people died and two people were injured. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pule, you said you wanted to say something. MR PULE I wanted to say to the relatives of the victims, I am saying sorry about what happened, because you lost your loved ones during that operation. I request them to understand that we were in a situation of war. We were not fighting so that we would be able to benefit money wise, but we were fighting so that we would achieve political goals, because we were fighting for the whole nation. People who divided us, like Mangope, Matanzima and other Bantustans leaders, were the people who were responsible for the loss of your loved ones, because they created this conflict which has made us to come here and attack that camp and in other attacks which happened. It happened because members of the Umkhonto weSizwe were obliged to enter in that war and the Mangope and his colleagues were responsible and they are now living in luxury. They are in positions, they created the situation where people were killed and others were injured, so I am asking for the relatives of the deceased and the victims to forgive us, because we were not doing this to please anybody. It is, we have liberation today because of the efforts from us and others who have lost their lives. I request them to understand that we are sorry for what we did. That is all Chairperson. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, that will be the evidence of Mr Ernest Pule. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Ms Vilakazi, do you have any questions you would like to put to Mr Pule? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VILAKAZI Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I do have a few questions for the sake of clarification. Mr Pule, when you went to attack the army base, how many were you? MR PULE We were five in number. MS VILAKAZI And can you name those people? CHAIRPERSON I think it is the three before us now, the other two people? MR PULE We knew others only with Mkululi, that is a code name, we don't know his real name. Then the other one we last saw him in exile. He did not work with us for a long time, he only came to help us for this particular attack. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what his name was? MR PULE His code name is Mandla. MS VILAKAZI At the time when you were around the Zeerust, Braklaagte area, where were you accommodated? MR PULE I did not understand the question, can you repeat that? CHAIRPERSON The question was when you were in the Braklaagte area, in other words on the night of the 30th of July, where were you accommodated? MR PULE We were at Gobani, which is near Motswedi. MS VILAKAZI From your testimony it appears that you were not involved in the hijacking of the car, is that correct? MR PULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ms Vilakazi, if I might just briefly intervene. Did you know or did you learn from the people who were involved in the hijacking, whether anyone was killed or injured at that incident? MR PULE I know that during the hijack there was no one who was injured, he was intimidated, then he allowed that the car would be taken. MS VILAKAZI Do you perhaps have information as to how many people were involved in the hijacking? And if so, who are they? MR PULE I sent my two co-applicants, that is Mr Sibanyoni, Mkhwanazi and Mandla who is not here, whom I last saw in exile in Botswana. MS VILAKAZI After the attack on the van that you attacked, did you leave anything on that van, in the form of arms or ammunition? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean in the vehicle they were driving in? MS VILAKAZI Yes, no, the vehicle that they had attacked. CHAIRPERSON Did they leave any weapons there? The question was did you leave any weapon at the place where you carried out the attack? MR PULE We did not leave anything at that police van, we were attacking them. What happened is that in any situation of war, anything can happen. At times you try to shoot and the firearm would jam. Our driver then had his firearm next to the door, so that when he opens the door, he would be able to take his firearm. He disembarked, then he was instructed to go back and to stay in the car, so that after we finished attacking, when he came back to the car, he was not aware that his firearm fell on the ground. He realised later, after we had left the scene, that he has left his firearm on the scene. It was not possible to go back to go and fetch the firearm. CHAIRPERSON That was an AK47? MR PULE That is correct Chairperson, it is an AK47 and a Bazooka's rocket. MS VILAKAZI Any handgrenades that were left there? Were there any handgrenades left there? MR PULE I don't remember as to whether anyone of us left any handgrenade there, but it is possible that they were left behind. I remember about the firearm and the Bazooka rocket. MS VILAKAZI That will be all, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Vilakazi. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you would like to put? MR MAPOMA None Chairperson, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA No re-examination, that would be the application. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON I will just ask Judge Motata if he has any questions? JUDGE MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, any questions? ADV SANDI No questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just one question from myself Mr Pule, was this Special Ops operation? MR PULE No. CHAIRPERSON When you completed the operation and went back to Botswana, did you report it to the person who you usually reported to there? MR PULE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who did you report to in Botswana? MR PULE When we arrived in Botswana, our Commander there was Aboobaker Ismail. But at that particular moment, when we returned to Botswana, he was not there. We reported, we informed him later. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions arising, Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA No Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Ms Vilakazi? MS VILAKAZI No questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VILAKAZI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Pule, that concludes your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, I wish to lead the testimony of Mr Aaron Mkhwanazi at this stage.