amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-28 JOHANNESBURG 3 LAZARUS KHAZAMULA MTHETHWA AM6601/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54292&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200628jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will now commence with the hearing of Mr L.K. Mthethwa, application number 6601/97. I would at this stage request the legal representatives to place themselves on record. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, my name is Brian Koopedi, I appear before you on behalf of the applicant, Mr Mthethwa. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. MR MAPOMA I am Zuko Mapoma, the leader of evidence, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, you can call your applicant. MR KOOPEDI Just a second Chairperson, he seems to be having a problem with his headset. CHAIRPERSON Here comes the Technician. Mr Mapoma, will you be looking after the interests of the victims in this matter? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, indeed. In fact I consulted with them, they are here, and I may at this point Chairperson, place it on record, that they have indicated that they are not opposed to the application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi, I take it you will be calling the applicant. MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so Chairperson, we are ready to proceed, he is also ready to be sworn in, he will be testifying in Zulu, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. LAZARUS KHAZAMULA MTHETHWA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Koopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthethwa, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI I am referring you to page 1 of the bundle of documents before this Honourable Committee, is this your application form? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI On page 10 of the same bundle of documents is a signature appearing at the bottom of the page, is that your signature? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that this application revolves or is an application for amnesty for the killing of one Alec Mashaba during September 1986? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI At this time, were you a member of any political organisation? MR MTHETHWA That is correct. MR KOOPEDI What political organisation were you a member of? MR MTHETHWA Tembisa Youth Congress. MR KOOPEDI Did you have a leader at the Tembisa Youth Congress, did you have anyone who was your senior or your Commander in the Youth Congress? MR MTHETHWA Yes, there was Peter Chauke. MR KOOPEDI Would you take this Committee through the events that obtained on this day, where were you before Mr Mashaba was killed? MR MTHETHWA I was at home, Peter Chauke came with many comrades, they told me that they were coming from Welamlambo Section. Peter told me that there was a person who was killing the comrades and he was working, this person was also working with the police, whose name was Percy and then he was actually ordering me to go and look for this gentleman. I didn't have a problem, because he was my Commander. We proceeded to the place. Peter stopped us on the way, next to a certain place where they had just been grass and shrubs, and then he told us to apply then the "roet", the black substance, the black substance, that we should apply it on our faces. After that he led us to the house. We got into the house, we went into the bedroom, we found the victim, we took him by force, all of us, and we were many there, and we found him asleep. He couldn't resist because we were so many. We overpowered him. We pulled him out of the house and we saw a woman following us, and I think that lady is here today, I think she is the mother to the deceased. But we didn't listen to her, we took him to Welamlambo Section and the comrades from Welamlambo took him to a certain forum and he was accused, after that he was killed. I was also involved in the whole process and I witnessed the whole incident. MR KOOPEDI Now, what ... JUDGE MOTATA Just before you do Mr Koopedi, what do you mean that you were involved in this whole process after you reached Welamlambo Section? MR MTHETHWA When he was being questioned, I was involved, I was in the house with Peter Chauke and all the other comrades, the house was full of comrades. I was there during the questioning, because this was not our case, we didn't have much jurisdiction, we didn't have jurisdiction to voice our own opinions, because this was not our case. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean it wasn't your case, Mr Mthethwa? MR MTHETHWA The comrades who came with Peter Chauke and Peter Chauke told me to go and assist the comrades from Welamlambo. I was taking orders from the Commander, I would do as he told me. He told us not to say anything, not to contribute because this was not our case. CHAIRPERSON It was the case of the comrades from another Section or another area? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand, thank you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. After the case you said, that was held, that is after he was charged and he was then killed, what active role did you take, did you participate in, what active role did you do? MR MTHETHWA I was never involved in anything thereafter. MR KOOPEDI But you however associate yourself with everything that was being done there, the case, the killing? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI What happened after he was killed? MR MTHETHWA We were arrested with the other comrades. I was granted bail after that, I realised the trouble that I was involved in and I decided to leave the country. MR KOOPEDI Where did you go to when you ran away? MR MTHETHWA I left for Mozambique and I joined Umkhonto weSizwe there. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now, have you, did you ever apply for indemnity for this matter? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct, I applied for indemnity after I came back to South Africa. MR KOOPEDI Were you granted this indemnity? MR MTHETHWA No, I never received a response because just after that, the TRC came into being and we were told to apply. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just one question Mr Koopedi, just for the record, it is apparent from the documents, the manner in which the deceased was killed, was this by the so-called necklacing method where he was burnt? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct, he was brutally burnt in a necklacing style. MR KOOPEDI Did you receive any personal gain, any material personal gain for having involved yourself in this killing? MR MTHETHWA No, not at all. We were not working for any company, this was all politically motivated, so there were no benefits. MR KOOPEDI And what political motivation would you say you people had to have killed Alex Mashaba? MR MTHETHWA I am associating myself with politics, because this person was a police informer and he was actually an obstacle in our struggle and he was also involved in killing comrades, and we wouldn't achieve our goals as politicians in South Africa. MR KOOPEDI And you actually were told that he, that is the deceased, was this informer and the person who kills comrades. You did not have any personal proof of knowledge of that, is that correct? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct, we didn't have any tangible proof, but we were told by Peter Chauke that this person was working with the police and he was involved in the killing of comrades, but myself, personally, I didn't have proof. MR KOOPEDI Have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, have you fully disclosed all the relevant facts related to this killing? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct because I came here voluntarily, I decided to apply for amnesty, I am the one who is prepared to tell the truth, because I want the people to know the truth. MR KOOPEDI Now finally, is there anything you would wish to add to your testimony? CHAIRPERSON We are not getting any translation. We didn't receive any translation of that, I wonder if you could repeat what you have said, Mr Mthethwa? MR MTHETHWA At the moment we are in good terms with the victim's family. We are a very big family with them, and because of what happened, no one knew what was happening actually. I also want to apologise to them, because all this happened because of the political violence and the situation was very tense. At the moment, I do wish that such things should not happen again in the whole South Africa, thank you. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that is the evidence of the applicant, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Just a few Chairperson. Where was Peter Chauke residing at the time? MR MTHETHWA Peter Chauke was residing at Baxa Section, in my Section. MR MAPOMA Why do you say this case was a case of the comrades from another area, was he not from that area? MR MTHETHWA No, Peter Chauke was residing at Baxa Section, and he was my leader and there were also a comrade from Baxa Section, but on that particular day, he came with the comrades from Welalambo Section. That is why I said that this case was not for us, but I was just asked by Peter Chauke to assist and I couldn't say no. CHAIRPERSON Would it be correct, would I be correct if I say that the comrades from the other Section, Welalambo Section, wanted to get hold of the deceased who was in your area, and Chauke's area, but they couldn't do it themselves because of the protocol that existed, they had to go through the leader of the area in which the deceased was, which wasn't their area? MR MTHETHWA The rule was you wouldn't go to a particular Section without going via the leader of that particular Section. CHAIRPERSON And that is why Chauke got involved in it? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. re-examination? MR KOOPEDI No re-examination, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? JUDGE MOTATA Just for clarification, when you state in your application that you are an MK member, you are not referring to the time when you belonged to the Tembisa Youth Congress, you are telling us about your status now or where you belong now? CHAIRPERSON Page 1, paragraph 7? MR MTHETHWA I think I made a mistake, but I thought I was saying, I think it is a mistake here, maybe they wanted to say I was belonging to a political organisation, so I wrote ANC or MK JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, no further questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sandi, any questions that you would like to ask? ADV SANDI Yes, I do Chairperson, just one or two. Before this incident, did you know the deceased at all? MR MTHETHWA Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI What did you know of him? MR MTHETHWA We used to go to school together, we used to go to school together at Savanna Section. ADV SANDI Did you personally believe that the deceased was an informer as it was being alleged by these comrades? MR MTHETHWA When you are in a group, it is very difficult to be independent in your thinking and beliefs, because there is also excitement and reality is blocked and you eventually become angry and thinking about this person that was being within the other people, that he is a sell-out, so all I can say is that anger overcame the independent thinking and beliefs, and therefore the situation was not as normal. ADV SANDI Were you angry? MR MTHETHWA Everyone in the group was very angry, we were ululating, we were doing everything. ADV SANDI What exactly was being alleged about the deceased, who was he alleged to have killed? MR MTHETHWA First of all he was labelled as an informer, secondly it was alleged that he had killed a certain comrades from Welamlambo Section, whose name was Sonnyboy. Those were the allegations. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthethwa, the Tembisa Youth Congress, was that aligned to the ANC? MR MTHETHWA Yes, they would associate themselves with the ANC because most of the time they would bring the reports from the UDF. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel? MR KOOPEDI None, thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthethwa, thank you, that concludes your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, there will be no further evidence, that concludes this case. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, any evidence from your side? MR MAPOMA No evidence Chairperson, except to point out that Mrs Betty Mashaba is the mother to the deceased person, and she is present at this hearing, she said she just wanted to be recognised as a victim in this matter. There is no other evidence that she can tender on the merits of the matter. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson, I have a very brief submission. Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members, it is my submission that the applicant before you has complied with the requirements of the Act for the granting of amnesty. My submission is that this applicant acted on the orders of his superior, Mr Chauke. It was explained to this applicant that the deceased was an informer and also a killer. However, my submission is that even if this explanation was not given to him, but by virtue of having his superior ordering him to accompany them to go and assist the comrades from Welamlambo Section to capture the de ceased, my submission is that the applicant would have gone in any event, even if he was not afforded this application. Finally, it is my submission that this applicant has given full disclosure on the basis of the facts, that were available to me, and my submission is that he has given full disclosure. He was not compelled to have applied for amnesty in this instance, but he did it on his own. Clearly there isn't any evidence that shows that there was any material gain that he obtained. Thank you Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA Would the application, because he was removed from his house, also include either abduction or kidnapping? MR KOOPEDI That could be so, I believe it would include abduction or it would be any other crime that would flow from having killed this person, but yes, it would include the abduction, because as he stated in his evidence, the deceased did not wilfully accompany them, he was forced out of his bed, and the applicant says he was part of the group that dragged or pulled the deceased out of his bed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Mapoma, do you wish to make any submissions? MR MAPOMA No submission Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. A written decision will be handed down in this matter as soon as possible, and the decision is accordingly reserved. Mr Koopedi, thank you for your assistance in this matter, Mr Mapoma, thank you. Thank you Mr Mthethwa, that concludes your hearing, a decision will be handed down in the near future. Mr Mapoma, are we ready to proceed with the next matter, or do you want to have an adjournment? MR MAPOMA We are ready to proceed Chairperson, I would like to call Patrick Nhlanhla Modibedi Radebe. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, may we be, may I be temporarily excused? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly, thank you Mr Koopedi.