amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-06-28 JOHANNESBURG 3 PATRICK NHLANHLA RADEBE AM5894/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54293&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200628jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, Mr Sandi does not have his bundle here, it is in the room I think. Thank you, we will now commence with the hearing of Mr P.N.M. Radebe. At this stage, I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record. MS MAKHUBELE I am Advocate T.A.N. Makhubele from the Pretoria Bar, representing the applicant, Patrick Radebe. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR NYAWUZA I am O.P. Nyawuza from Johannesburg, representing P.G. Motaung, Christina Ntabiseng and Ntauleng's mother. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson, Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Ms Makhubele, you are going to be calling the applicant? MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Mr Chair, yes, I will lead the applicant. PATRICK NHLANHLA RADEBE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Makhubele. EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Thank you. Mr Radebe, you are also known as Modibedi, that is your other surname? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I see from the application form, Ms Makhubele, that he actually uses the name Modibedi as his surname? Which is the correct one to use, Radebe or Modibedi? MR RADEBE We can use Radebe, because I used to use the Modibedi surname, I now use Radebe. CHAIRPERSON It is not a question of what name you are using, we want to know what your legal, correct name is. MR RADEBE Radebe, Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA So in other words we should call you Mr Nhlanhla Patrick Radebe? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I noticed it has been pointed out to me, in your trial the name used was Modibedi? Was that an alias or just an assumed name by yourself? MR RADEBE That is correct Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Makhubele? MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Mr Chair. How old are you? MR RADEBE I am 29 years old. MS MAKHUBELE You reside at Sebokeng in the Vaal, Vereeniging area? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Radebe, if you could speak a little bit louder, because there are people sitting in the audience who would want to hear what you are saying. MR RADEBE Yes Chair. MS MAKHUBELE You are before this Committee for an incident which occurred on the 15th of October 1998 at Sebokeng, an incident for which you were ultimately convicted by the Court where you kidnapped and assaulted some people, is this correct? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, he also applies for, I see, robbery? Is that right, and public violence? Page 2 of the Bundle? MS MAKHUBELE You were ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, is that correct, is he also applying for robbery and public violence? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Mr Chair. This incident occurred on the 15th of October 1998, can you tell ... CHAIRPERSON No, no, is it not 1988? MS MAKHUBELE 1988 yes. CHAIRPERSON You said 1998? MS MAKHUBELE I am sorry Chairperson. Can you tell this Committee whether at that time, you were a member of any political organisation and if so, your capacity in that organisation? MR RADEBE I was a member of COSAS and the ANC Youth League. MS MAKHUBELE Did you have any position there? MR RADEBE No, I was just an ordinary member. MS MAKHUBELE Can you describe the political situation, anything like unrest, violence at that time and the parties involved, or the people you were fighting against? MR RADEBE I will explain it this way. We had many informers in our area, other comrades also acted as informers against others. They were taking information from the organisation, to the Special Branch police. As members of the organisation, we decided that we have to deal with such people, we have to discipline them. MS MAKHUBELE Who were the people identified as informers? MR RADEBE Those were the people who turned against the comrades in court, and they became State witnesses in court. MS MAKHUBELE Anyone in particular? MR RADEBE One of them was Ntabiseng, Baseka and Ntauleng. MS MAKHUBELE Who else? MR RADEBE I do not remember the others, but there were many. MS MAKHUBELE With reference to the incident for which you are before this Committee, are these the victims, the people you have mentioned? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE You mentioned Ntabiseng, Ntauleng and Baseka, there are three? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE How were you to deal with them? MR RADEBE We were to discipline them, that will depend on the type of discipline that we decide to ... MS MAKHUBELE Can you tell us what happened to them on the specific day, the 15th of October 1988? MR RADEBE On the 15th of October 1988, in Zone 14 in Sebokeng, we went to fetch them using a furniture van, we were taking them to Soweto, we were going to attend a night vigil of our comrades but unfortunately we could not reach the destination. MS MAKHUBELE Did these three people stay in one house? MR RADEBE No. MS MAKHUBELE Can you tell us how you took the first one, Ntabiseng from her home? MR RADEBE We fetched Ntauleng first, but she did not open for us. MS MAKHUBELE What did you do to her house or home? MR RADEBE They shouted and said they would call the police and we broke a few windows and we retreated. MS MAKHUBELE Before you proceed, you keep on saying we, with whom were you when you did these things? MR RADEBE We were eight in number. MS MAKHUBELE Can you specify names? MR RADEBE It was Terrence Mkwehli, Struggle Mokoena. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Terrence Mkwehli? MS MAKHUBELE Yes? MR RADEBE Struggle Mokoena, Josias Motlung, Vusi Motaung, Goodwill Masimola and Benni Jekelha. MS MAKHUBELE Are these the people who were your co-accused in the trial? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE So you did not manage to take Ntauleng our of her house, but you caused damage to her home? MR RADEBE That is correct. ADV SANDI What was the purpose of causing this damage to her home? MR RADEBE I did not see the person who actually broke the windows, I only saw the broken windows, while they were shouting that they will call the police. ADV SANDI Thank you. MS MAKHUBELE Then you left, to whose home? CHAIRPERSON Sorry could you repeat your question please, your microphone was not on. MS MAKHUBELE After Ntauleng's home, which house did you proceed to? MR RADEBE We went to fetch Baseka. MS MAKHUBELE What happened there? MR RADEBE We knocked, pretending to be policemen and he opened the door. He was taken out by Terrence. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you proceed ... INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you talk about going and fetching Baseka, are you talking about Baseka George Motaung? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS MAKHUBELE What was your role at his home? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, was the microphone on? MS MAKHUBELE What was your role at Baseka's home? MR RADEBE Because we were many, I was not able to enter the house, but he was taken out by the other comrades. MS MAKHUBELE Did you see if any force was used on him? MR RADEBE I saw them dragging him outside, and they took him to the car. That is the only thing that I saw. MS MAKHUBELE And then, what happened next? MR RADEBE He managed to escape, we ran after him but we could not catch him. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, were you people in your sound and sober senses? I am just wondering how one man is being dragged out of his house by eight people, just manage to escape and none of you can catch him? MR RADEBE He was fighting while we were trying to force him into the van, that is how he managed to escape and we tried to run after him, but we could not manage to catch him. MS MAKHUBELE Proceed, where did you go to next? MR RADEBE We went to his neighbour, that is where Christina Mfolo stays. MS MAKHUBELE What happened there? MR RADEBE We knocked, pretending to be the police, and they opened the door. I don't know who dragged her from the bedroom, I only saw her in the kitchen. She was dragged out and taken to the car. She was forced into the car, in the front seat, and then we left to Soweto as we planned. CHAIRPERSON Sorry before you proceed, Ms Makhubele, what was her name, you say Motiso Mfolo? MR RADEBE Christina Mfolo. CHAIRPERSON Christina Mfolo, is that the same as Christina Ntabiseng? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Did you do any specific thing to her or at her home? MR RADEBE No, we did not do anything. MS MAKHUBELE I am referring to yourself, did you hold her, drag her, or did the knocking at her home? MR RADEBE No. The person who dragged her to the outside, was Struggle, I did nothing. MS MAKHUBELE Who was driving the vehicle? MR RADEBE That is Struggle Mokoena. MS MAKHUBELE Was she assaulted in any manner? MR RADEBE She was seated in the front seat, I was at the back of the van, so I did not see her being assaulted. MS MAKHUBELE You mentioned that you did not get to where you were going ultimately, what happened? MR RADEBE Somewhere in Soweto, I think that was around Dube, we were confronted by the police, but we did not stop and they chased us and they shot at us. We ran away, so I don't know what happened thereafter. MS MAKHUBELE When the police shot at you, the only person amongst the three victims was Ntabiseng? MR RADEBE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE You have heard during consultation when I informed you that Baseka has made a statement where he states that he was actually put in the truck and he was assaulted, he only escaped at the point where the police - where you met the police, what do you say? MR RADEBE That is not the truth. MS MAKHUBELE Is it possible like the situation of Ntabiseng, like you say he was seated on the front, that Baseka was also in the front and as such, you did not see him being assaulted? MR RADEBE No, the last time that I saw him was when he ran away and we could not manage to catch him. MS MAKHUBELE What were you going to do to Ntabiseng in Soweto? MR RADEBE That would depend on the discipline that we had decided then. MS MAKHUBELE What would you like to say to the people you kidnapped on that night, Ntauleng where you damaged the window panes at her home as well as George, who managed to escape and Ntabiseng who you ultimately took along to Soweto? MR RADEBE I would ask them to forgive me for what I did to them, but I did that under what was happening then. That is all I can say to them. MS MAKHUBELE How many, or rather, what was your sentence at the trial for this incident? MR RADEBE I was sentenced to seven years imprisonment. MS MAKHUBELE How many did you serve? MR RADEBE Two years and some few months, I don't remember the months. MS MAKHUBELE Evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Just before I ask Mr Nyawuza. If you turn to page 2 of the documents, it says here he is applying for amnesty for public violence, what does the public violence relate to? MR RADEBE When I refer to public violence it is because we were charged for this in court. CHAIRPERSON Does that relate to the incident that took place at the house where the windows were broken? MR RADEBE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And it says kidnapping, okay, you have told us about that, assault, okay, you have told us about that, and then robbery, what, you haven't said anything about robbery to us yet? MR RADEBE It is because it was alleged that we robbed that car from the owner. CHAIRPERSON Which car? MR RADEBE That is the furniture van that we used to travel to Soweto. CHAIRPERSON It was alleged, what do you mean by that? Are you saying that you didn't do it, or what? MR RADEBE We took it by force from the owner. CHAIRPERSON What sort of vehicle was it? MR RADEBE It was a furniture van without a canopy at the back. CHAIRPERSON And who was the owner? MR RADEBE I don't know the owner. CHAIRPERSON Did you take it by force? MR RADEBE He was packing at a certain house in Zone 14. We took the keys from him and we took the van. CHAIRPERSON What did you do to the owner? MR RADEBE We did nothing to the owner. CHAIRPERSON What was the political motive in hijacking the van? MR RADEBE We took that van because it belonged to the whites, and we did not want to see the white's vehicles in the township. CHAIRPERSON Was the driver or the owner who you took the keys from, a white person? MR RADEBE No, the driver was a black person. CHAIRPERSON So, what was the name of the furniture company from whom it was stolen, who owned the van? MR RADEBE I do not remember the name of the furniture shop. CHAIRPERSON So how did you know that it belonged to the whites when you took it from a person who was not white? MR RADEBE We asked him about the car, because it was written that it belonged to a furniture company. CHAIRPERSON So you are saying the only reason you took the vehicle was because you thought it belonged to a white person? MR RADEBE Yes, it belonged to a white person. CHAIRPERSON That is the only reason why you took it? MR RADEBE It is because we wanted to use it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, precisely, wanting to use it for your own purposes? Mr Nyawuza? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Committee Members. I would wish to put it on record that the victims, they advised me not to oppose amnesty. They feel it was, everything was done within the political turmoil that was prevalent at that time, but they would wish that I get a few answers from the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, how many vans were used on this particular day, there were eight of you? MR RADEBE We used one van. MR NYAWUZA Isn't it correct that there were two vans involved, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE That is not true. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, my instructions are that Baseka was in the van that did not have a canopy and Ntabiseng was in the other van, in front, what is your comment on that? MR RADEBE I would only agree that Ntabiseng was in the van that I was travelling with, I don't know about the other van. CHAIRPERSON In the van which you were in, were all your seven comrades with you? MR RADEBE Yes, all of us were in that van. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, do you know a guy by the name of Sixteen? MR RADEBE Yes, I know the name. MR NYAWUZA Will I be correct Mr Radebe if I say Sixteen was present on this particular day? MR RADEBE He was not amongst us. MR NYAWUZA Are you in essence Mr Radebe saying there was some other independent group or why are you saying he was not amongst you, are you saying he was not there? MR RADEBE He was not amongst the people I was with. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, during your evidence-in-chief it emerges as if you did not have anything to do with the breaking or the getting into the house, tell me what you in particular did on this particular day, did you throw a stone, did you stab somebody, did you drag any person, what is it that you in particular, did on that particular day? MR RADEBE My role was to identify those people we were going to fetch, there was nothing else that I did. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, let's now go back. You get into Ntauleng's yard and the occupants of the house do not open for you, how were you going to identify Ntauleng? MR RADEBE If they had opened the door, I would enter and identify Ntauleng. MR NYAWUZA And Mr Radebe, the occupants of the house do not open, the window panes are broken, are you saying you did not take a part in that? MR RADEBE No, I did not take part. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, are you saying to this Committee today that you were not as agitated as your other comrades were, who went to an extent of breaking the window panes? MR RADEBE I was agitated, but I did not allow my emotions to control me to that extent of breaking the windows. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, the window panes are broken at Ntauleng's house, you now go to Baseka's house. As the person who was supposed to identify Baseka, will I be correct to say that you were in front? MR RADEBE I was not in front. He was dragged by the people who were in front. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, I haven't arrived yet at the dragging. You are from Ntauleng's house, you are now going to Baseka's home. The people that you are with, Mr Radebe, don't forget, do not know Baseka, you have to identify Baseka. Invariably you've got to be in front to be able to say "this is the guy that you are looking for"? Further, you stated that you knocked at the door, and then are you still saying that you were not in front, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE I was not the only person who knew Ntauleng and Baseka, there was another guy also who knew them. MR NYAWUZA But your evidence today is that you were the person who was supposed to, you didn't tell us about the other guy who was supposed to identify these people, why not? MR RADEBE I was only referring to my role. MR NYAWUZA Okay, tell us then who identified Baseka, is it you or the other guy? MR RADEBE That was the other guy. MR NYAWUZA And where were you during that identification period? MR RADEBE I was outside. MR NYAWUZA Are you saying you never set foot inside Baseka's house? MR RADEBE No, I did not. MR NYAWUZA The assault, didn't you assault Baseka? MR RADEBE No, I did not. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, my instructions are that you stabbed Baseka, what is your comment on that? MR RADEBE No, it is not true. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, whilst on Baseka, you have this van, Baseka is dragged out of the house, invariably I believe he was also dragged from the yard into the van, can you tell us what ultimately, you are standing outside, you know, you are observing everything that is happening because according to your testimony you are not taking part in the assaulting, in the beating of Baseka, so I am inclined to believe that you were observing everything that happened. Baseka is dragged from the house, Baseka is taken to the van, what subsequently happened? Was he ultimately put into the back of the van or, you know, take us through that? MR RADEBE Yes, it is true, he was dragged to the van, that happened very quickly. He managed to escape from that van. MR NYAWUZA When did he manage to escape, Mr Radebe? Did he manage to escape after you had also found Ntabiseng and put her in front, when did he escape? MR RADEBE He was left with three people, while other people were at Ntabiseng's place. That is how he managed to escape. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, there is eight of you, and a few is a relative term, what do you mean when you say when there were a few people, were there four people guarding Mr Motaung, Baseka or were there two people or were there six, what is a few? MR RADEBE If I am not mistaken, three people. MR NYAWUZA Are you saying the other five people went to Ntabiseng's place of residence, is that so? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Were you amongst the people that went to Ntabiseng's place? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA Were you able to get - a follow up on that question, there is five of you, can you tell us the name of the people that you were with, that entered into Ntabiseng's place? MR RADEBE I was with Terrence, Struggle, Josias and Vusi Motaung. MR NYAWUZA So these were the five people that entered Ntabiseng's place of residence, is that so? MR RADEBE Before we entered at Ntabiseng's place, that is when they shouted and we ran away. MR NYAWUZA Who shouted and what were they shouting about? MR RADEBE Those three people who were with him, they were shouting that he is escaping. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, on Baseka, I put it to you that my instructions are that Baseka was stabbed, assaulted, doused with petrol and made to lay at the back of that van, what is your comment? MR RADEBE No, I don't know that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Nyawuza, were any of you armed with a knife? MR RADEBE No, we were not thugs, we did not have knifes. CHAIRPERSON Were any of you armed with a firearm? MR RADEBE No, we were not armed. CHAIRPERSON You see, why I ask is if I look at Mr Baseka George Motaung's statement on page 16, he says and I don't know if you can make a comment on it "... they smashed window panes and I opened the door and they started assaulting me by kicking, beating by a gun butt and being stabbed by a knife at the back." And then he says they drove, he talks about going along the Golden Highway until Johannesburg and he said he couldn't even walk, he tried to walk later, an fell. MR RADEBE No, I don't know this. CHAIRPERSON Do you dispute that? MR RADEBE Yes. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, has your legal representative told you what you need to do here to get amnesty? MR RADEBE Yes, she told me. MR NYAWUZA Do you know that full disclosure is one of the requirements? MR RADEBE Yes. MR NYAWUZA Okay. I believe that after some of your comrades shouted and said Baseka is running away, you were part and parcel of the people that tried to chase after Baseka, is that right? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA And you couldn't catch up with him, is that so? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA And how many people did you assault at Baseka's home, did you assault Baseka alone or were there other people that were assaulted? MR RADEBE Only Baseka was dragged out of the house. CHAIRPERSON Sorry were window panes broken at his house like he says in the statement? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, my instructions are that window panes were broken at Baseka's house, his younger brother was attacked, his father was attacked, in fact his younger brother known as Rangwani had to undergo surgery because of the beating that he got on that particular day. What is your comment on that? MR RADEBE I know nothing about that. MR NYAWUZA The said Rangwani, I have requested that he avail himself today, I hope he is here, to confirm that he was assaulted on that particular day and he had to undergo surgery. Baseka's father was hacked above the right eye and he sustained an open wound? Your comment, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE That is the first time that I learn about that, today. JUDGE MOTATA: Mr Nyawuza, if I may just interrupt there, Mr Radebe have regard to page 13 of the documents. You mentioned that you were with Vusi and Vusi mentions that you were in his company, do you see that? Look at paragraph 2 - "... we were about five, namely myself, Patrick Modibedi, Struggle who was the driver, Terrence and Chauke." Do you see that? MR RADEBE Yes, I do see. JUDGE MOTATA And further down he says, that would now be the fourth paragraph "... we started at Ntauleng's place and we smashed the window panes, and they did not open the door and we proceeded to Ntabiseng and we got hold of her and we also got Baseka, who later escaped while on our way to Soweto." So the impression I get from the statement that is made, is that he did not escape whilst you were getting into Ntabiseng's place, he was in that van, and he escaped en route to Soweto? MR RADEBE No, that is not true. JUDGE MOTATA You may proceed, Mr Nyawuza. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, I am going to revert back to the question that were asked by the Chairperson, were you in your sober senses on that particular day? MR RADEBE Yes. MR NYAWUZA Okay, Mr Radebe, let's now go to the last person to whose house you went, that is Ntabiseng. You run after Baseka, you cannot get hold of Baseka, you come back, what happened? MR RADEBE Then we went to Ntabiseng's place. MR NYAWUZA Got into the yard, did you break that door, did you break the windows, what happened? MR RADEBE We knocked at the door and they opened the door. MR NYAWUZA Who opened the door, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE I do not remember, because all of us entered. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, the door is a very small entrance that one can use, you cannot be eight of you going in at the same time. There's got to be one or two people going in at the same time? When did you get into the house, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE I was the fourth person to enter. MR NYAWUZA And by the time that you entered, where was Ntabiseng? MR RADEBE I think she was in the dining-room because they were dragging her into the kitchen. MR NYAWUZA And you were not playing any part in the dragging and assaulting, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE I also dragged her, but that is when we were outside. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, do you remember me asking you about Sixteen? MR RADEBE Yes, I do remember. MR NYAWUZA Are you aware that I don't know Sixteen, I have never seen him? MR RADEBE Yes. MR NYAWUZA And I was told about Sixteen by Ntabiseng. My instructions, Mr Radebe is that Ntabiseng's uncle opened the door for you, Ntabiseng hid under the ward rove and you looked for her for some time, you couldn't find her, on your way when you were about to leave the house, Sixteen went into the bedroom, looked under the ward rove and said "here is this bitch, she is hiding", what is your comment on that, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE No, Sixteen was not with us. CHAIRPERSON Sixteen, where do you know him from? MR RADEBE I knew him in 1986 while we were in detention. CHAIRPERSON Is he one of your comrades, was he a member of COSAS and the Youth League and that sort of thing? MR RADEBE He was just a thug. CHAIRPERSON A thug? So he wasn't one of your group, is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE Yes, I would say so. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Radebe, here are three people, Baseka, Ntabiseng and Ntauleng's mother, they were victims of an assault on a particular day when the house, Mrs - Ntauleng's mother's house was attacked, Baseka was beaten, stabbed, Ntabiseng was beaten and they come before the Truth Commission, they say "okay, we are aware that at the time there was this mishap, there was this problem between us and the comrades which we vigorously tried to address with them, that we did not testify against our own comrade of our own free volition, we were made to testify against him. We will come to the TRC Committee and say we forgive Mr Radebe, because we know he was acting within the prevalence of this violence at the time", they are seated here, they want to hear you tell the truth. Do you still think that if they feel you are not telling the truth, are they going to forgive you, are they going to say they are no longer opposing amnesty, Mr Radebe? MR RADEBE Well, I don't think so. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, what is it that you stand to lose if you tell the truth because my instructions and what you are saying here, contradicts each other a lot? CHAIRPERSON You might as well add that the Panel aren't bound by the fact that a victim does not oppose an application, we've got to take a look at the criteria before we make a decision. MR RADEBE May you please repeat that question again? MR NYAWUZA My question is, you - people were victimised on a particular day, they come to the Committee they are saying "we don't have anything against you being granted amnesty", but they are seated there and they feel that you are not telling the truth, you are not talking about the stabbing, about the assault, in actual fact, on this particular day you were an angel, your duty was only to point out "this is the person who testified against us", are you saying, are they going to feel the same after you have given testimony after I cross-examined you, are they still going to say they would have wanted you to get amnesty for this? MR RADEBE What I am saying here today is what happened that day. MR NYAWUZA You said there was only one van involved, is that so? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR NYAWUZA My instructions are that there were two vans involved, the van that was in front had Ntabiseng in it, and the van that was behind the one that Ntabiseng in it, had Baseka, what is your comment on that? MR RADEBE I only know of one van. MR NYAWUZA And Mr Radebe, my instructions are that after you had got hold of Ntabiseng, both vans left Everton using the side that goes to, I don't know whether you call it Chinatown, but they are saying ...(indistinct) in their African language, that is the route that was used. It is on that route that the car that Ntabiseng, managed to go through and the one behind, was spotted by the police officers, and they suspected something and in fact, Baseka was told not to do anything, and he jumped when he saw the hippo. All of you guys who were in that motor vehicle, escaped, but unfortunately, apparently one of you was arrested, my instructions are not clear as to who was arrested at the time. Are you, what is your comment on that? MR RADEBE Yes, it is true that one person was arrested, but that happened in Soweto. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, Mr Motaung was part and parcel of you on that particular day, is that so? MR RADEBE Are you referring to Vusi Motaung? MR NYAWUZA Yes, Mr Radebe. MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR NYAWUZA And we now, we have his affidavit, we have a statement, sorry, a statement by himself saying that Baseka escaped on your way to Soweto, so are you trying to tell us that your presence at Baseka was your way to Soweto? MR RADEBE That is what I said before, maybe he was unable to explain it clearly here in his statement. CHAIRPERSON Can you think of any reason Mr Radebe, why Mr Baseka should make a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Investigator saying that he was stabbed, the windows at his house were broken, that he was beaten with the butt of a gun, that he had to receive hospital treatment after the incident, because of the injuries he sustained, can you think of any reason why he should come up with that version, which is entirely disputed by you even after you have been sentenced in respect of this incident and something that happened, that is in the past, can you think of any reason why he should be making up this version against you at this stage? You have already served your sentence, you are already out of prison for serving it? MR RADEBE It is the first time that I learnt about this, because he never said this, even in court during our trial. I don't know the reason why he is saying this today. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nyawuza? MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, did Ntabiseng testify against your in your trial? MR RADEBE Yes, she did. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, why would four people, Mr Vusi Motaung included, lie about your participation in this thing, in this, in what happened on this day? MR RADEBE I don't know the reason. It can also happen that he has forgotten what has happened on that day. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, would he forget that at some stage you were on your way to Soweto with Baseka, I mean you went out to get these people and you found them, you know, it is something that one glorifies, "we have undertaken our duty fairly well", and I wouldn't forget if I was Mr Motaung, Vusi Motaung. What makes you think that he would forget such a thing? MR RADEBE Maybe he has made a mistaken when he was writing the statement, he must have forgotten some important issues. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, to wrap up your evidence, did you assault anybody on this particular day? MR RADEBE No, I did not assault anybody. MR NYAWUZA Did you break any window on this particular day? MR RADEBE No, I did not break any window. MR NYAWUZA Will I be correct to say that you were the saint who didn't do a thing on this day? MR RADEBE I was not a saint on that day, because these people were supposed to be taken to Soweto, maybe I would have taken part in Soweto, if we had managed to arrive. MR NYAWUZA What is it that you intended doing to these people when you reached Soweto? MR RADEBE I have explained before that they were going to be disciplined, but that would depend on the type of discipline that would be meted against them. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Radebe, why take them to Soweto for that purpose, weren't you all from Sebokeng area? MR RADEBE We were taking them to Soweto because there was a night vigil there. CHAIRPERSON I just want to get this straight, you and the people that you were with, planned to go to Soweto to attend a night vigil, but you also, because you wanted to discipline these other people who had testified against one of your friends in a court case, you took them with you to Soweto, just because you were going to Soweto to attend the night vigil, is that the reason or was it necessary for them also to be disciplined by people who were in Soweto, that is what I am trying to find out? MR RADEBE No, it is because we were also going to the night vigil in Soweto. CHAIRPERSON Now these people that you were with, these other seven people, whose names you mentioned, were they members of COSAS and the Youth League, all of them? MR RADEBE Yes. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, do you know a guy by the name of Dog? MR RADEBE Dog is my nickname. MR NYAWUZA Okay, Dog was your nickname? Where were you seated in the van that was going towards Soweto, were you seated in the back or in the front? MR RADEBE I was seated at the back. MR NYAWUZA Mr Radebe, why are my instructions that you were seated in front with Ntabiseng? MR RADEBE I was seated at the back. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, this is the furniture van with the flat back? So you were exposed to the elements outside? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct Chair. MR NYAWUZA I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. Mr Radebe, I just want before I proceed, to get this clear from you, are you aware at all that even if you were a member of a political organisation and even if the victims do not oppose your application for amnesty, as long as you do not tell the truth in this hearing, you do not qualify for and you will not get amnesty, are you aware of that? MR RADEBE Yes, I do know. MR MAPOMA Okay. Let's start here. Is it your evidence that during 1988, you were a member of the ANC Youth League? MR RADEBE Correct Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Were you a card carrying member of the ANC Youth League then? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Are you sure? MR RADEBE I was a member, because at that time, political organisations were banned, I was not a card carrying member. MR MAPOMA Then why did you lie and say that you were a card carrying member of the ANC Youth League in 1988? MR RADEBE It is because we, all the time we were guided by the ANC. MR MAPOMA I thought during 1988 the youth were organised in South Africa, following the policies of the ANC, were members of the South African Youth Congress? I thought so, am I wrong? MR RADEBE I have stated earlier that I was a member of COSAS when I was a student. Then later I became a member of the ANC Youth League. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mapoma, just to intervene, to get it on record, at that time you would have been almost 17 years of age, is that correct, at the time of the incident? I see from your form, your birthday was the 1st of November 1971 and this happened during October 1988, just before your 17th birthday, is that correct? MR RADEBE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. I put it to you that during 1988 the ANC Youth League was not operating in South Africa, inside the country? What is your comment? MR RADEBE Perhaps I did not understand because I said that I was a member of COSAS, then I thought at the same time that I was a member of the ANC Youth League. As I was a young person at that time, I thought that I was a member of the ANC Youth League. MR MAPOMA Let's leave that point. Now, when you went to Baseka's home, were you in one group, all of you? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA And do I understand that that very same proceeded as that group, to Ntabiseng's home? Is that correct? MR RADEBE I said three people remained with Baseka, and the five of us went to Ntabiseng's place. They were neighbours, that is Baseka and Ntabiseng. MR MAPOMA At what stage did Baseka escape? MR RADEBE He escaped while we went to Ntabiseng's place. CHAIRPERSON I thought earlier in your evidence, and just correct me if I am mistaken, didn't you say that Baseka escaped as they were trying to push him into the vehicle, because you will recall I asked you whether you people were in your sound and sober senses when Baseka escaped as there were eight of you, he managed to escape and run away successfully from the eight of you and you said he escaped when he was being pushed into the vehicle. That is what you said earlier? What is the position? JUDGE MOTATA Actually before you respond, I have a note that he was fighting, while you were forcing him into the vehicle? CHAIRPERSON What is the position, did he escape while being forced into the vehicle or did he escape whilst he was being restrained near his house, when the other five of you went to the next door house, to get Ntabiseng, what is the position? MR RADEBE Yes, he was fighting back, because he was trying to disembark from the van. He was on the back of the van, and he was fighting, so I don't know whether when he escaped he was in the van or he was out of the van. I am not sure of that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA So is it your evidence now that when he escaped, you were not there in the group? MR RADEBE Yes, I was not with the group that was left with him. JUDGE MOTATA Mr Mapoma, just for me to interpose briefly, where was this van parked when Baseka was taken out of the house into the van, where was it parked in relation to the house of Baseka? MR RADEBE It was in front of the house. MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. When he escaped, that is Baseka, as you say, had you already gained access into Ntabiseng's home? MR RADEBE No, we were still knocking. MR MAPOMA And you saw him run away while you were still knocking at Ntabiseng's home, is that what you are saying? MR RADEBE Those people who were left with him shouted and said that he was escaping, and then we saw him escaping. MR MAPOMA So when Ntabiseng was taken out of his house, out of her house, Baseka had already run away, is that your evidence? MR RADEBE That is correct. MR MAPOMA And at that time, the members of your group, where were they, those who were left with Baseka, at Baseka's place, where were they now when you were gathered outside with Ntabiseng? MR RADEBE They had already joined us at Ntabiseng's place. MR MAPOMA So is it your evidence that at the time when Ntabiseng was taken out of the house, there was nobody at Baseka's place? MR RADEBE No, I don't remember that. MR MAPOMA I am asking this question because Ntabiseng in her evidence, I mean in her statement says that whilst she was - I just want to read it for you, on page 20 of the Bundle, paragraph 4, the last line she says "... before I got into the car, I saw another group at Baseka's house and I don't know what happened to him." MR RADEBE I don't know that, because there was no fence between the two houses, that is Ntabiseng's place and Baseka's place. MR MAPOMA What is it that you don't know? MR RADEBE I do not understand your question. MR MAPOMA Your answer is that you don't know, the question was this is what Ntabiseng says, what do you say to the statement of Ntabiseng, is it correct or incorrect? MR RADEBE I am saying there was no other group at Baseka's place. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Ms MAKHUBELE? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Yes, Honourable Chairperson. Do you know if any of your co-accused at the trial, Vusi ...(indistinct) Motaung in particular, has applied for amnesty? MR RADEBE Well, I don't know. MS MAKHUBELE There is no indication from the records, the Bundle, but can you tell us if you recall from the trial how many charges or counts of assault you were charged with, by saying how many people testified at the trial that you assaulted them, or were assaulted? MR RADEBE I only remember Ntabiseng, that was on assault. MS MAKHUBELE That is all? MR RADEBE That is all, yes. MS MAKHUBELE I have no further re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Judge Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant? JUDGE MOTATA Just clarification, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Radebe, have regard to page 8 which is the typed version of your statement, contained on page 9, look at the seventh paragraph. You say there - "... we were five comrades, that is myself, Vusi, Terrence, Chauke and Struggle", and in your evidence you said that you were eight, oral evidence? Do you recall the precise number, or are you taking the number of the persons charged which would appear on page 28 of the Bundle? MR RADEBE I do not remember other people, but I take this number from the number of people I was charged with. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but then why did you in your statement say there were five of you and then you mention their names, you can see for yourself, it is there? Is that just an oversight? JUDGE MOTATA Because when you gave evidence, you even mentioned Mgwedi, you remembered precisely the people there, but in your statement Mgwedi does not appear? MR RADEBE I think it is a typing mistake here. JUDGE MOTATA Let's have regard to the written statement then. It commences on page 9 and if you go to page 10, that would be the third paragraph "... we were about five comrades, that is myself, Vusi, Terrence, Chauke and Struggle ..." So it is a correct typing because it accords with the written version? MR RADEBE I did not write the statement, I think the person who was writing the statement for me, made a mistake. JUDGE MOTATA Is this not your handwriting, you asked somebody to write for you? MR RADEBE It was written by the Investigating Officer who came to me. JUDGE MOTATA What standard did you reach at school? MR RADEBE Standard 5. JUDGE MOTATA If you have regard to the statement by Baseka, I will find it shortly. MR NYAWUZA It is on page 16 of the Bundle. CHAIRPERSON Page 16? JUDGE MOTATA He says in the second paragraph "... in 1988 after testifying against one comrade, Ace Motaung, I do not remember the date, when a group of comrades arrived with four car and a truck of furniture, it was about eleven o'clock", how many cars were you using on that particular day or vehicles, to put it much better? MR RADEBE We used one car. JUDGE MOTATA And again I asked you this earlier, do you still disagree with Vusi when he says that would be on page 13, that Baseka escaped whilst you were on your way to Soweto because that is the person that you remember also in your statement, mentioning that Vusi was present when this incident occurred? MR RADEBE When Vusi was writing his statement, I was present. That is when the Investigating Officer was visiting us, it can be a mistake by the Investigating Officer. JUDGE MOTATA He also mentions five people, those are the people that you mention in your statement, that would be the second paragraph on page 13? MR RADEBE That is why I say it may be a typing machine because he was just asked to confirm or deny what I had already stated in my statement. JUDGE MOTATA Are you suggesting that these statements were taken when both of you were in the presence of each other? MR RADEBE Yes, I was present when we went to Vusi's work place. JUDGE MOTATA Now just lastly, on page 8 again, and I would refer you to paragraph 4 "... we started at Ntauleng's place and we smashed the window panes and could not succeed as they did not open ...", when you refer to "we smashed", who are you referring to because the impression that I am gaining is that you participated in the smashing of the window panes? MR RADEBE The reason why I say we smashed the windows is because we were many there, so I did not see who actually smashed the windows. JUDGE MOTATA You were eight according to your oral evidence, that is not a large group, was it? You were eight according to yourself? You are not talking of a more, or were there other people whom you cannot recall? MR RADEBE No, it is not so. JUDGE MOTATA So you mean the seven obscured your view or obstructed your view to see who actually smashed the window panes? MR RADEBE The only thing that I remember is that when these windows were smashed was at the time when we were leaving and the people were noisy, so I did not recognise who actually did it. JUDGE MOTATA So if I understood your evidence, oral evidence, it is that you were one of the two that had to point out these people, would I be right? MR RADEBE Yes. JUDGE MOTATA And if that happens, obviously you must be in front, because you must point out these people? MR RADEBE Yes, that is correct. JUDGE MOTATA And at these other places where the door was kicked and that kind of thing, did you see who did that, because you say you did nothing? MR RADEBE Like I said, the person who was leading the group when they went to Baseka's place was Struggle because he was the person who knew Baseka. JUDGE MOTATA Did he kick the door, was it Struggle who kicked the door? MR RADEBE No, we knocked pretending as policemen, but we knocked forcefully. JUDGE MOTATA Did you knock, you personally now, forcefully? MR RADEBE Yes, I was knocking at the other door. JUDGE MOTATA Now let's get the picture now, because when you say the other door, which door are you referring to? Didn't you people use one door where you knocked and gained entry? MR RADEBE We knocked as police, the other people were knocking at the door, others knocking at the windows, but they opened only one door, that is the kitchen door. JUDGE MOTATA Which door now, we know there is a front door and a kitchen door if I know the typical township house, which door did you use, the front door or the kitchen door? MR RADEBE We used the back door, that is the kitchen door. JUDGE MOTATA No, I don't mean entry, I mean the knocking, because you said others were knocking somewhere and you knocked at the kitchen door. MR RADEBE There is a door in the front, and the other one at the side. As we knocked at the front door, we also moved around to the other door. JUDGE MOTATA All of you? MR RADEBE We were not at one door at the same time. JUDGE MOTATA How many were at the kitchen door where you knocked? MR RADEBE I knocked at the dining-room door, but they opened the kitchen door at the back, that is the door which we used to get inside. JUDGE MOTATA How many were you who knocked in the front, on the front door? MR RADEBE We were two. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Judge Motata. Mr Sandi, do you have any questions? ADV SANDI Yes, just one question for clarification for me. You say Sixteen was a thug? Why was he in detention then, what had he been detained for? MR RADEBE He robbed the bakery. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Radebe who and how, who made the decision and how was the decision made to go and kidnap Ntabiseng Mfolo and Baseka and to go to the other house of Ntauleng? MR RADEBE Terrence Mkwehli was in the local structures, and he informed us about the decision that was taken at the meeting. CHAIRPERSON A meeting of what? MR RADEBE That was the COSAS meeting, because we were all students. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms Makhubele, do you have any questions arising out of questions that had been put by Members of the Panel? MS MAKHUBELE Nothing Honourable Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, any questions arising? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NYAWUZA Yes, only one question. Mr Radebe, on your answer, your answer to Adv Sandi's question as to what was Sixteen arrested for, you said for the robbery of a bakery, was he the only person arrested or was he arrested with other people? MR RADEBE He was, I don't know the other people who were arrested with him, but we were detained, because we were comrades. MR NYAWUZA Was he also detained under the same Section as yourself? MR RADEBE We were not in the same cell, but we were at the same prison, but he was detained for robbing the bakery. MR NYAWUZA Wasn't he detained under Section 29 as yourself? MR RADEBE No, I don't remember so. MR NYAWUZA No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYAWUZA CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, any questions arising? MR MAPOMA None Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Radebe, that concludes your testimony, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Makhubele, are you going to be calling any further witnesses? MS MAKHUBELE None Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyawuza, do you intend to call any witnesses? MR NYAWUZA No, I am not going to call any witnesses, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, are you going to be calling any witnesses? MR MAPOMA No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you want, I see it is after one o'clock now, do you want to finish this matter now or do you want to address after lunch? Do you want to make submissions? MS MAKHUBELE I suggest we do so now Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, right. Thank you Ms Makhubele, if you can make your submissions please. MS MAKHUBELE IN ARGUMENT Honourable Chair and Committee Members, I just want to highlight because it appears at the end of the day that this would have an impact on whether he has disclosed or not, but I just wish to point out some differences in the statement of Baseka and Ntabiseng. When we look at the statement of Baseka, he says that he doesn't know what happened to Ntabiseng after he escaped, but on the same breath, it appears he was in a bakkie and Ntabiseng was also in a bakkie. ... CHAIRPERSON But it was clearly put that there were two vehicles? MS MAKHUBELE Yes, I am coming to that Honourable Chair. In his statement he mentions that there were four cars and a truck and I would imagine that when he says a bakkie, he is referring to the truck. CHAIRPERSON No, not necessarily. If there were two, we don't know the type of the other one, we know the one was a flat back truck? MS MAKHUBELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON My, yes, it could be. It needn't be, but it could be. MS MAKHUBELE Yes, but unfortunately we don't have his testimony where one would have had an opportunity to clarify the issues like this, Honourable Chair. If Ntabiseng says that she, after she was forced in a bakkie, she doesn't know what happened to this Baseka, but Baseka says that he last saw Ntabiseng, he doesn't know what happened to Ntabiseng after he escaped. One would then imagine that at the place where he escaped, he was with Ntabiseng? CHAIRPERSON No, it was from Mr Nyawuza, he put it that the two vehicles were leaving Chinatown, passed Chinatown and the one went ahead and the police came and the people escaped near Everton, where Baseka escaped and the other one got through to near Dube? It wasn't the two vehicles at the same place, that was what was put by, although I know it is not evidence, but I mean what you are saying is wrong in accordance with what was put by Mr Nyawuza. MS MAKHUBELE Honourable Chair, what I am saying, I have taken from the statement, from his written statement, not the version put by Mr Nyawuza, I am taking it from the statement that he says "I do not know what happened to Ntabiseng after I escaped" which would mean that until he escaped, he could see or was with Ntabiseng in one car. CHAIRPERSON Not necessarily, yes, it might be. MS MAKHUBELE Might be, thank you Mr Chairman. Another thing is the version which has been put to the applicant that at Baseka's house or home, people were assaulted, his brother, his father, but unfortunately like I said before, his version differs with the applicant's and there is no way where one can test the version, because it is not even in his written statement. There is nothing in his written statement to suggest that any other person but himself, was assaulted at his place. I know and understand and appreciate that it is not a criminal trial, but then this would at the end of the day impact on whether he has disclosed everything that happened on the day in question, because we do not even know from the Bundle whether he was charged with one assault or how many assaults Honourable Chair. My submission is that the applicant has made a full disclosure and which in my opinion would be the only disputed requirement, and as such, that he should be granted amnesty. Thank you Honourable Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Makhubele. Mr Nyawuza, do you wish to make any submissions? MR NYAWUZA IN ARGUMENT Only three lines. Honourable Chair and Honourable Committee Members, our submission is that there hasn't been full disclosure, first in that a person who was arrested and served the same sentence with the applicant before this Committee, testified that, made a statement to the effect that the motor vehicle they were in, was going towards Soweto and that is disputed by the applicant. There has just been so many contradictions and a lot has not been said by him. The evidence is on record. We submit that he should not be given amnesty. That is all that I can say on behalf of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Nyawuza. Mr Mapoma, do you wish to make any submissions? MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT Just a few Chairperson. On the question, on the issue which is quite disturbing Chairperson, that one of full disclosure. The applicant gives an impression that he did not participate in the acts of assault, the smashing of the windows and the explanation that he has given as to why he did not participate, is that he did not want his emotions to overrun him. That gives an impression Chairperson, that those who did those things, were just overrun by emotions, otherwise that was not the plan. That infers that he disassociates himself, he dissociates himself with those assaults as it is. One other thing, that is interestingly noteworthy in his evidence is that of all the persons who were forming that group, the actual persons who identified themselves as the actual perpetrators are Terrence and Struggle. Those two, they are the only two whom he has mentioned, and they are not alive. CHAIRPERSON They are the only two that are dead now, as well, yes. MR MAPOMA Pardon Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON I say they are deceased now? MR MAPOMA Yes. Chairperson, it is my submission that that counts heavily against him as a credible person, as a credible witness to give, to make full disclosure before the Committee. That is all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any reply Ms Makhubele? MS MAKHUBELE None Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. We will hand down a written decision in this matter, as is our policy. Accordingly we reserve our decision, I would like to thank the legal representatives, Ms Makhubele for your assistance, Mr Nyawuza for yours, and Mr Mapoma for yours. Thank you. We will now take the lunch adjournment and then you can let us know when you are ready to - have you got another matter to go on with today? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, the matter I would be calling after lunch is that of Buhali. CHAIRPERSON Buhali and Dube? MR MAPOMA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will now take the lunch adjournment, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS