amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-03 MESSINA 1 MZONDELELE EUTHLID NONDULA AM727597 LANDMINE EXPLOSIONS AND DEATH OF MEMBERS OF DE NYSSCHEN AND VAN ECK FAMILIES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54300&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200703me.htm MR KOOPEDI He will testify in English, Chairperson. MZONDELELE EUTHLID NONDULA: (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. The application of Mr Nondula appears on page 23 of the bundle. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Nondula, I'm showing to you page 23 of the bundle of documents. There is an application form there. Is this your application form? MR NONDULA Yes, it is. MR KOOPEDI And I'm also showing you page 28 of the same bundle of documents, there is a signature under which the word "deponent" is written, is that your signature? MR NONDULA Yes, it is. MR KOOPEDI Now Mr Nondula, were you a member of a political organisation at any stage? MR NONDULA Yes, I was. MR KOOPEDI Which political organisation? MR NONDULA The African National Congress. MR KOOPEDI When did you join the African National Congress? MR NONDULA In 1982. MR KOOPEDI Where did you join the African National Congress? MR NONDULA In Lesotho. MR KOOPEDI Did you belong to the military wing of the African National Congress? MR NONDULA Yes, I was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI Did you receive any military training and if you did, briefly tell this Honourable Committee what military training did you receive and where did you receive it? MR NONDULA The first basic training was in Angola, a six month course and from there was in then East Germany and then the other I did was in Tanzania, Commander's course. MR KOOPEDI Now after you were trained, did you have an opportunity to be infiltrated into the country? MR NONDULA yes. MR KOOPEDI And when was this? When were you infiltrated into the country and perhaps if you could be very broad about that. Tell this Honourable Committee whether you belonged to any unit then and if so, how many of you were in that unit. MR NONDULA That was in 1985 when we were first infiltrated, being a unit of twelve. MR KOOPEDI Do you recall the month? MR NONDULA November, I think it's November 1985. What actually transpired is, we were first briefed by our fellow Commander as to the nature of the operation that we were going to undertake, which in this case was landmines. The briefing went thus: politically speaking the Soutpansberg area was regarded, now let me say in military terms, the farming community in this area was regarded as the first echelon of defence in the sense that the population there was actually sponsored or even encouraged by the Government to maintain that area as being the trained personnel, therefore in this sense, legitimate targets in the view of MK and the African National Congress. They were trained as Commandos to safeguard the border area and thus our order was then given to operate in the area. MR KOOPEDI Now I need you to get to your infiltration. Did you belong to any unit? MR NONDULA Yes, as I've said, we were a unit of twelve. MR KOOPEDI Now who was the Commander of this unit? Because as you would have it there were people commanding this unit, who was the Commander of this unit? MR NONDULA Okay. The frontal Commander was Mancheck, unfortunately I don't have his real name at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Nondula, could you spell that? MR NONDULA M-A ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Can you try to spell it? MR NONDULA M-A-N-C-H-E-K. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, if I may be of assistance, Mancheck has been spelled with a C-K at the end in a number of amnesty applications. Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Maybe while you are there, you said you were briefed, who briefed you? MR NONDULA It was Mancheck himself who briefed us. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. MR NONDULA And thereafter we were transported to along the borders of Zimbabwe, just across the Limpopo, by the other side of Limpopo river where we stayed and slept overnight. It was then decided that the unit must be divided into two, meaning six/six, each person carrying a landmine and a rifle and other ...(indistinct) The two units now, had to have different Commanders. On the other unit in which I was in, it was ...(indistinct), he was the Commander. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what was his name? MR NONDULA Agrippa. CHAIRPERSON Agrippa? MR NONDULA Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was that a code name? MR NONDULA Yes and the other unit then was commanded by Chilies. CHAIRPERSON Chilies? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NONDULA Then we slept over this side of the river for preparing ourselves for now the actual crossing of the border, which we did the following day at night, I would say around 9, past 9 somewhere there. Then we went - we travelled deeper into the South, because the instructions were: "In the area in which you operate, there are patrols, security patrols." The order then was to lay these mine fields in the roads that are actually used for patrolling the area. The following day we travelled almost the whole night ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry. When you say you travelled, was that on foot? MR NONDULA Yes, on foot yes, we walked, I'll say, ...(indistinct) We slept because we could not operate during the day so we had to ...(indistinct) ourselves somewhere under bushes until it was dusk, then we began walking, moving now towards the border area, the border fence and on instruction, it's unfortunate at this stage I cannot remember the actual spots were certain landmines were laid, but then on instruction of an order, we would dig and then we placed the mine field and then we carry on. The idea being that they should not be too clustered in case of detection. CHAIRPERSON So when you say on instruction you would dig and lay the landmine, in your unit, would you be the person giving the instruction? MR NONDULA That was Agrippa. CHAIRPERSON Oh, sorry, Agrippa? MR NONDULA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Agrippa. MR NONDULA Yes and also him, because he was, together with Chilies, the person who initially undertook reconnaissance in the area and I think I should add here that he was, Agrippa in this sense, he was almost familiar with the area itself because of reconnaissance that he had already undertaken. So we laid these mine fields, all six of them and on the third day, we spent two nights inside, then on the third night we crossed over to Zimbabwe, that must have been on a Wednesday. CHAIRPERSON Now when you say you laid the six mines, were these on different roads or all on the same road, but at different places? MR NONDULA Not on the same road, different roads that actually lead to the main patrol route along the fence and the last one was actually put there on that patrol route, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes and these mines that you laid, could you describe them? I know very little about mines, I don't know if they come in different sizes, if some are stronger than others. If you could just briefly describe the type of mines which you laid. MR NONDULA It must have been the weight of more or less 6 kgs, brown of a ...(indistinct) casing, with - now the substance I am not very sure now whether it was meant to be ...(indistinct) mines, it should have been filled up with TNT, I think so. CHAIRPERSON If you could just indicate with your hands about the size of the mine. MR NONDULA It must have been this size. CHAIRPERSON You're indicating about 25 cm, I suppose, just less than a foot. Would that be round? MR NONDULA Ja, it's round and brown. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. You've mentioned that your frontal Commander was Mancheck, but now who would have been the Commander, the actual Commander for this unit, the entire unit of twelve people before you were actually split into two? MR NONDULA He was the one. MR KOOPEDI Who, Mancheck? MR NONDULA Mancheck ja, because all the briefings we got from him, logistical arrangements and that kind of thing. MR KOOPEDI Okay. MR NONDULA Chairperson, that is the evidence of the first applicant then. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Who's going to start? Mr Wagener, are you ready to - if you have any questions to ask you may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Prior to this incident, what training did you receive in military weapons? MR NONDULA The kind of training we received is the normal basic training, rifles, artillery, marching drill, we used to call it topography at that stage. Okay then it was intelligence, counter-intelligence. MR WAGENER Did you receive any training whatsoever in explosives? MR NONDULA Yes, engineering, we actually did it, that's it ...(indistinct) MR WAGENER What was the nature of this training? MR NONDULA The nature of the training? MR WAGENER In explosives. MR NONDULA In explosives? MR WAGENER Yes. MR NONDULA You're actually taught to use explosives for sabotage purposes, like normal training any other soldier would get, if I got the question correctly. CHAIRPERSON Was this training, this engineering, where did you receive that, Angola or East Germany? MR NONDULA In Angola and East Germany, it's an over ...(indistinct) training. MR WAGENER During the course of this training, did you ever handle landmines as such? MR NONDULA Yes, we did. MR WAGENER Did you lie to the criminal court when you testified that you had received no prior training in landmines? MR NONDULA I must have lied. MR WAGENER Are you asking for amnesty for lying to the Court? MR NONDULA I'm asking for amnesty, yes I would say for lying, if I did lie at that stage and also for the fact that the act itself says: "Let's reconciliate" and I am now on that road. MR WAGENER Can you show me where in your written application do you ask for amnesty for lying to the Court? MR NONDULA No, I don't know that. MR WAGENER Sorry? MR NONDULA I'm not aware about it. MR WAGENER Before you entered the Republic of South Africa on this specific mission, what were your exact instructions? Can you please tell us? MR NONDULA The exact instructions were to lay landmines along the patrol routes in this vicinity. MR WAGENER Were you not supposed to first enter our country merely for purposes of reconnaissance and draw up maps where the military patrols were and then report back to your military headquarters in Zambia? MR NONDULA That part did not include this unit at that stage. The people who were doing reconnaissance, as I said, were Agrippa and Chilies, they were the people who did all that and they reported back. MR WAGENER When was that reconnaissance done? MR NONDULA In 1985, I'm not sure now the actual months, it must be somewhere September or August, somewhere there, because reconnaissance is something that carries on, it's a continuous thing. MR WAGENER Are you personally aware of what you're saying now? Are you personally aware of this prior reconnaissance? MR NONDULA Am I aware of? MR WAGENER This prior reconnaissance of the other terrorists? MR NONDULA I am aware ... MR WAGENER Sorry, sorry, sorry, who was that speaking now? Who was that speaking to you next to you? MR NONDULA My comrade. MR WAGENER What did he say? What did you friend say? MR NONDULA I didn't hear him, I was answering you. CHAIRPERSON Please, when a witness is giving evidence, if he could not be spoken to. Sorry, the question that you asked Mr Wagener, was were you aware of the reconnaissance mentioned by you done by Agrippa and Chilies, at what stage are you talking about? At the time it was done or when? MR WAGENER Ja, before the group of twelve left for South Africa. MR KOOPEDI And Chairperson, excuse me, if I may just interpose. I believe the reaction that we got here, stems from the fact that my Learned Friend is referring to people as terrorists and from where I come from and from where these applicants come from, that's an insult Chairperson and if my Learned Friend would refrain from such references, I do not think we will have bursts. Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think Mr Wagener, if you can just respect that. MR WAGENER Were you present in Zambia or Zimbabwe, or wherever, when these two friends of your reported back about their reconnaissance? MR NONDULA The briefing that we were given was from the fact that an information has been gathered as to the military activities within the area and the persons therefore who were going to be our Commanders were in the know, so it was made known to us that they are capable, they know the area, they will be able to lead us to the area, so in that sense, yes. MR WAGENER Did they show you any maps perhaps, that they drew up where the roads were supposed - or the roads where the mines were to be laid? MR NONDULA Yes. MR WAGENER And were those the roads where the mines were in fact laid on your mission? MR NONDULA I may not necessarily be accurate on that information, but to the best of my knowledge we did manage to plant them where we were supposed to plant them. MR WAGENER ; Will it surprise you to know that you and your friends planted a landmine that eventually killed the family of my client, that you planted that on a farm where no military vehicle or no military patrol has ever been before this incident? MR NONDULA As I've said earlier, no knowledge in as far as I am concerned, was actually targeted towards a particular family or particular person, the operation in total was to the best of my knowledge, a military operation in a military area. MR WAGENER Well, I put it to you that you planted a mine on a farm on a road where there's never ever been a military vehicle whatsoever prior to this incident, what do you say about that? MR NONDULA All I would say about that is in as far as I was concerned at that stage, people who were in the vicinity, were regarded as military personnel and I can assure you, patrols in the area by military vehicles were there. As to whether at that particular point in time it was not, that does not concern me at this stage, it didn't concern me even then. MR WAGENER I want to come back. Can you deny that this landmine was laid on a farm where there's never been any military patrols? It was a holiday farm. MR NONDULA I know nothing about a holiday farm, all I know is the area in itself is a military area, that's all I can answer to that question, Sir. MR WAGENER Why do you say that? MR NONDULA I was in the area myself, I did see patrols at some point. I did see patrols of military vehicles in the area and the debriefing, as I've said earlier, was and I believed in that also, was that the first echelon of defence was composed of the Commandos who were along the border areas of South Africa, not necessarily in Messina, but of South Africa and that is the job that they did. MR WAGENER This farmer on whose farm you planted the specific mine that killed my client's family, was he a member of the Commandos? MR NONDULA I would believe so. MR WAGENER Well, I put it to you he was not. MR NONDULA I didn't know. MR WAGENER He was not even resident on that farm. MR NONDULA I didn't know even that. MR WAGENER He merely occasionally visited this farm, can you deny that? MR NONDULA I don't know about it. MR WAGENER Well, if you can accept what I've just said, that this was a person staying in another part of our country and this is merely his holiday farm, he's not a member of the Commandos, there's no military patrols whatsoever on his farm, on what basis do you say this farm is part of a military zone? MR NONDULA On the basis that this is Soutpansberg Military area and according to my briefing which I believed completely, that personnel in this area were actually military personnel and it is only on that basis that I acted with a clear conscience, if I may say so. MR WAGENER Mr Nondula, have you see the statistics of this terror campaign of yours? Have you see the results, the end results? MR NONDULA As you may know, I was physically, I was illusionally involved when the trial went on, I saw everything that was - I was supposed to have seen as evidence and photographical evidence and as verbal evidence given in a Court. MR WAGENER Can you deny that 25 people were killed in this landmine campaign, although you were not involved in all the incidents, 25 people were killed, of whom 24 were civilians? MR NONDULA I cannot deny. MR WAGENER So you killed only one our of 25 military personnel. MR NONDULA That must have been the case then. I cannot deny those statistics. MR WAGENER And the 24 people killed, were they legitimate targets, according to your organisation, the ANC? MR NONDULA What was regarded as a legitimate target at that stage, was the personnel in this area that I believed to be military personnel, that was legitimate. MR WAGENER Yes. And then you went on and you laid a mine on a farm where there's never been any military personnel and is that how you and your unit thought, how you were going to attack the military opponents? MR NONDULA Sir, it's quite regrettable that in a situation of intensity of conflict, that blood had to be shed, tears had to flow and in many, many cases, this is not only the only case, that some people do become victims, the innocent ones. MR SIBANYONI I'm sorry Mr Wagener, can I try to get some clarity here? It doesn't appear very clear whether you were targeting specific roads to lay these landmines, or were you targeting a certain area, a zone, within which you were going to - you had instructions to lay the landmines, what was the debriefing? MR NONDULA The briefing Sir was the area in which we were going to operate is actually peopled with military personnel and thus to make our presence felt, we had to target the roads along the border where the military personnel travelled. MR SIBANYONI Was this area indicated in terms of the distance? How long from the border itself, or what was the description? MR NONDULA The discretion at some point rested also with the Commander because we were briefed clearly that we should at least not be more than 10 kilometres from the border at least and in that case 10 kilometres from the border, it meant we had to be in the country and come back as soon as possible, before we could be vulnerable ourselves. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Wagener. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Wagener, if I could just ask, while we're on this point. It's a long border between Zimbabwe and South Africa. Could you give us a closer description of where you actually crossed? Do you know this area at all, Mr Nondula, now as you sit here? Do you know, in relation to let's say Messina, where was it? Was it towards the Kruger Park side, or was it towards the Botswana side, or how far from Messina more or less, that your unit, Agrippa's unit operated? MR NONDULA Yes. Mr Chairperson, I am sorry, at this stage I will not be able to furnish you with the cases of the matter because I'm not very familiar with the terrain itself. It was my first time to be inside South Africa, through this area, travelling at night, but from the map that we were given, the area was divided into two and I would simply say that from our point of view we were on the western side of the area, then the other unit was on the eastern side of the area, so I cannot really say to you if you move this direction then you'll see this place, in this kind of situation. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN Mr Wagener, may I just clarify something here? Mr Nondula you described these roads as patrol roads. MR NONDULA Yes, Ma'am. ADV BOSMAN Can you sort of perhaps just clarify in relation to other roads, were they sort of like farm roads? Were they secondary roads? Were they primary roads, or isn't it possible for you to indicate? MR NONDULA Yes, I can, Ma'am. The one identical road is the one that stretches along the border fence itself. Now you also have the adjoining ones. That means now as they patrol, they have to go around the area itself, so those are the roads I am talking about. ADV BOSMAN So it would most probably be sort of a tertiary road? You'd have your main road, which is probably a tarred road and this is a - is it a dirt road along the border? MR NONDULA It's all dirt roads, Ma'am. ADV BOSMAN And you didn't plant anything on that road, but you planted it on the tertiary roads coming out of that road? MR NONDULA We planted one on that main road, before we crossed. ADV BOSMAN Okay. MR NONDULA That was the last one that we planted, but we went inside and moving along these secondary roads leading towards the main road, that's where we planted our landmines. ADV BOSMAN Alright. Thank you. Thank you Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Mr Nondula, to that very last response of yours, I put it to you that you are lying. The mine that killed my client's family, was not on a road as you have just explained and he will lead evidence to that effect and I will hand up photographs showing this road, so I put it to you, you are lying. MR NONDULA You may say so, but ...(end of tape) transpired what happened. MR WAGENER Yes. MR NONDULA Ja. MR WAGENER You followed the gist of my submission that I put to you just now. MR NONDULA I followed it properly. MR WAGENER You understand what I'm saying? MR NONDULA I do understand you. MR WAGENER That we will present evidence showing that you're lying on this aspect. MR NONDULA As far as I am concerned at this stage, Sir, that is exactly what happened. MR WAGENER Did you have to climb through fences to get to the area where you laid this mine? MR NONDULA We did. MR WAGENER Yes. MR NONDULA Yes, we did. MR WAGENER Game fence? MR NONDULA Yes, that was during the day and what happened is at some point we were the first group in fact that went in. They were able to move out earlier and early in that morning, we heard an explosion and it was a normal response that we may be in trouble, so we had to shift our position during the course of the day, we had to climb some fences and that happened on our way back, that is where we put the mines on the road moving back to the border. MR WAGENER I put it to you Mr Nondula, that the mine that killed my client's family was put on a small game road, if I may call it that, on a farm totally enclosed by game fence with no access by the public, no access by the military. It was a private farm enclosed by game fence, what do you say about that? MR NONDULA Sir, as I've said earlier, I rather should put it clearly, in my knowledge then I didn't have a Mr De Nysschen that I knew, that I wanted to kill. All that happened is I undertook instructions, I took instructions as they were given to me and executed them to the fullest. MR WAGENER In a question put to you by the Chairman, you said or you mentioned something about a map given to you. Can you please tell us what this map was all about? MR NONDULA The map was actually the lay-out of how the roads from the border fence leading inside, how they looked like, just like a sketch. MR WAGENER Right. MR NONDULA That's all. MR WAGENER Did it show all the roads where the mines were to be laid? MR NONDULA Let me ...(indistinct) all the roads, it showed the area and the roads that you would expect to see when you come into the area and then where we could put them. MR WAGENER ; Was it your instructions, in other words, that the mines should be laid on the roads as specified on this map? MR NONDULA Exactly Sir. MR WAGENER Those were your instructions? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Did you follow those instructions? MR NONDULA I did. MR WAGENER Was it, in other words on this map, shown that you should plant the mines on Mr De Nysschen's farm, which was totally enclosed by game fence, is that what you're saying? MR NONDULA No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Wagener's wanting to know, Mr Nondula, this map, did it have the points marked on the map with a cross or something else, where the mines should be placed? Here you are with six mines. Here's the map of the area that you must go, there are six points marked on the map. You must go to those points and lay the mines. MR NONDULA Not necessarily and the maps, they showed only the lay-out of the area and the possible roads that the mines could be laid in. CHAIRPERSON So it didn't have the points where the mines ... MR NONDULA Not necessarily the points on the map, so the discretion at that stage had to be that of the Commander, the ...(indistinct) Commander at that stage. MR WAGENER You've mentioned it earlier that the policy or the general instructions of your movement, was that the mines should be laid on roads patrolled by the military, right? MR NONDULA Exactly. MR WAGENER So, when laying these mines, you ignored these instructions. MR NONDULA How? MR WAGENER Well, I've said that a number of times now. You laid a mine on a road where there's never been a military vehicle before. How did that come about? MR NONDULA I cannot at this stage testify to the fact that there was no military vehicle that ever passed that area or not, I cannot at this stage, because I did not do the reconnaissance myself and specifically the instructions that were given to us, those are the instructions that we followed. MR WAGENER Your group of six, your two friends sitting next to you, were they part of that group? MR NONDULA Not at all. MR WAGENER Were they part of the other group? MR NONDULA Yes. MR WAGENER Now this Agrippa that you referred to, what is he real name? MR NONDULA I don't know his real name. MR WAGENER I put it to you that you're lying, you know his real name. What is his real name? Tell us. MR NONDULA I do not know his real name, Sir. MR WAGENER What happened to him? MR NONDULA He passed away. He was shot. MR WAGENER When? MR NONDULA 1987, 86. MR WAGENER May I ask your friend to stop helping you give evidence, or else I'm going to request that he sit in another chair. CHAIRPERSON Please, when the witness is giving evidence, he mustn't be assisted in any way. MR WAGENER Mr Nondula, are you proud about what you did here? MR NONDULA I am. MR WAGENER As a soldier? MR NONDULA As a soldier, yes I am. MR WAGENER For killing innocent women and children, you're proud of that? MR NONDULA I am. MR WAGENER Is that how you were trained by your organisation, to do acts like this, commit acts like this? MR NONDULA No. MR WAGENER So why are you proud? MR NONDULA I've said earlier, in a situation of conflict, it is quite regrettable that innocent lives should be lost. That one is regrettable. I do regret that, but I cannot run away from the fact that I was acting out of a pure political conscience as a soldier, that one I cannot run away from. MR WAGENER But you were acting outside your instructions. MR NONDULA I was not. MR WAGENER Well I will bring evidence showing that. MR NONDULA And I still believe I was not, in that case I would have agreed with you from the beginning, but I was not. MR WAGENER What was the purpose that you wanted to achieve by killing these innocent women and children? MR NONDULA The purpose was, as I've said earlier, a purely military objective. MR WAGENER Yes, but we all know this is not a military target, we know that as a fact. MR NONDULA ; You have established that fact, I think so. MR WAGENER Yes. MR NONDULA Then the fact that the civilian lives had to be lost, as I've said earlier, is quite regrettable. MR WAGENER So my question was, what did you want to achieve by killing these innocent people? MR NONDULA What we wanted to achieve was first and foremost to open up this area for ...(indistinct) operations because there was no way for us to go and operate in the area, unless we actually made our presence felt and then we could find our passage through to other areas where we wanted to operate. MR WAGENER Sorry, but I don't understand this answer. How do you open up an area by killing women and children? I don't understand this. MR NONDULA The women and children that were killed were not part and parcel of the overall objective of MK. MR WAGENER Right. So this act of yours was not aimed towards the overall objective of MK? MR NONDULA So this act of mine was not aimed at those innocent people, it was part and parcel of the overall strategy of MK. MR WAGENER And what was that? MR NONDULA As I've said earlier Sir, to open up the area, so that we could be able to operate and reach other places where we thought or deemed it necessary for us. MR WAGENER Mr Nondula, we're going in circles now. Now we're back to my question when I asked you: "How would you achieve this opening up by killing women and children?" How would this opening up be achieved by that? MR NONDULA At this stage if I've not yet answered you, then I don't know what else answer could I give to you. MR WAGENER Sorry, you haven't answered me at all. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think we are going around in circles now. Perhaps this can be a question for argument. MR WAGENER Did you receive a medal for this murder? MR NONDULA At this stage I have only one medal, ...(indistinct) medal, I was given by the SANDF. MR WAGENER Did you receive a certificate or a commendation for this murder? MR NONDULA Nothing at all. MR WAGENER I read in a newspaper you did, you received some order, or I'm not sure what it is, from Mr Mandela in Soweto on the 16th of December, I think 1992, what was that that you received? MR NONDULA Sir on the 16th of December 1992, I was in East London. MR WAGENER Or 1993, I'm not sure, but I read something like that. MR NONDULA In 1993, you are mistaken Sir, if I may say so. MR WAGENER Did you receive an award from Mr Mandela at any stage? MR NONDULA As I've said nothing, I would have mentioned it. Nothing. MR WAGENER Sorry, I thought - then I'm mistaken. Did any of your colleagues? MR NONDULA I think they'll have to answer for themselves Sir. MR WAGENER Do you know? MR NONDULA They'll answer for themselves, Sir. MR WAGENER Do you know? MR NONDULA I do. MR WAGENER Did they? MR NONDULA I know one. MR WAGENER Who? MR NONDULA My comrade Mncube. MR WAGENER What did he receive? MR NONDULA A medal. MR WAGENER I'm not sure - I'm referring to an award received from Mr Mandela. I was under the impression it was you, now you say it wasn't you. I'm asking you was it your colleagues next to you? CHAIRPERSON He said it was Mr Mncube got an award. MR NONDULA Yes. MR WAGENER Oh, I see. Was this not for the incident where ...(intervention) MR NONDULA I may not know anything about it, the only thing I know is that he did receive something from the President himself. MR WAGENER The ANC says in its submission to the Truth Commission, Mr Chairman I said I think it's page 327 of the bundle, I have the full document before me. They refer to this campaign of using landmines and they said that the decision for this operation was made at military head quarters. Do you have any knowledge of this? That the decision to embark upon this landmine campaign, was taken by your military head quarters. Do you have any knowledge thereof? MR NONDULA For me, Sir, that is logical enough, that any military decisions that were taken at that stage, had to be approved by the High Command. MR WAGENER Yes and who would be the High Command? MR NONDULA The High Command would be everybody who then was in the position to influence the policies and strategies that must be followed within the military organisation, meaning MK. MR WAGENER Would that include your army Commander of the time, Mr Joe Modise? MR NONDULA Definitely Sir. MR WAGENER Would that include the Commissars, including Mr Steve Tshwete? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER ; Would that include the Chief of Operations of the time, Lambert Moloi? Would that include the Chief of Military Intelligence, Ronnie Kasrils? MR NONDULA Yes, indeed Sir. MR WAGENER Thank you. Would it also include your National Executive Committee? MR NONDULA As I said, any person may have a direct influence in terms of strategies and policies to be followed within the military organisation. MR WAGENER ; Was this landmine campaign a new concept at the time in waging the arms struggle? MR NONDULA In this sense, ja, it was because I do not recall any landmine operation prior to that incident. MR WAGENER So what you say is an idea of this kind would have been discussed at and approved by, as the ANC says, by their military head quarters, that we now know. MR NONDULA Yes. MR WAGENER And what about the Higher Structures, like the NEC? MR NONDULA I may not necessarily, but I can only think that where those authorities have to be informed, they would definitely be informed. MR WAGENER I read to you from a document stemming from the ANC setting out the tasks of the military head quarters "Amongst others military head quarters shall direct the military struggle subject to plans approved by the PMC." What was the PMC? MR NONDULA The Political Military Council. MR WAGENER And the NWC, what was that? MR NONDULA The National Working Committee. MR WAGENER And the NEC? MR NONDULA The National Executive Committee. MR WAGENER So would you expect a campaign like this, the landmine campaign, to have been approved by these bodies that I've now mentioned? MR NONDULA Yes. MR WAGENER Now tell me Mr Nondula, how does it come that you sit here today before us without your Commanders? MR NONDULA I am the person who asked for amnesty and I am sitting here as that person who wishes to say: "Yes, it is me who did this and here are the reasons that this happened." MR WAGENER What I'm asking is, it seems to me that you're a mere footsoldier, or you were a mere footsoldier in this operation. MR NONDULA Yes, I was. MR WAGENER Now where are all your Commanders? CHAIRPERSON He said he's applied, he ... MR WAGENER Isn't the reason ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How can you expect him to answer that? MR WAGENER Well I'm going to put it to you, isn't the reason that you were acting outside your instructions when laying this specific landmine, isn't that the obvious reason? And I'm going to argue that, so I want to put it to you now. MR NONDULA I deny what you are saying. Whatever I did, was under specific instructions and I obeyed those orders as a footsoldier, as you're saying, I obeyed those orders and I carried them out. MR WAGENER Did you inform your erstwhile Commanders that you were going to apply for amnesty for this act? MR NONDULA I did not. MR WAGENER Did you not? MR NONDULA No. MR WAGENER Not at all? MR NONDULA Not at all. MR WAGENER Wasn't that the obvious thing to do? MR NONDULA What was obvious for me to do was to appear in front of this Committee and to state my case because everybody had to go and testify, who so thought, or yes, that he had something to tell this Committee. MR WAGENER May I ask you this, you told us that you were a group of twelve initially. MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Under the leadership of a man called Mancheck. MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Is he the same person that I've seen called as Manchecker, I've seen that name also in some of your ANC literature, is that the same person? MR NONDULA I know Mancheck, I may not necessarily be aware as to the correct pronunciation, but I know Mancheck, it could be the one. MR WAGENER Yes. And then you divided into two groups of six? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And the one leader was Agrippa? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And the other one was Chilies, or something like that? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Now what happened to Mancheck? MR NONDULA Mancheck passed away. MR WAGENER No, but prior to this, during this operation, what happened to Mancheck when the two groups divided? MR NONDULA Oh, I see. No he was left behind either in Bulawayo or Harare, I'm not sure where he was exactly. MR WAGENER I see. He didn't cross the border at all? MR NONDULA No, no, he did not. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, can you spare me a moment? CHAIRPERSON Certainly Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman, those will be my questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Mr Nondula? MR DE BEER Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE BEER Mr Nondula, you said that when you crossed the border, you saw some patrols. Were they military patrols, I assume? MR NONDULA Yes, they were, Sir. MR DE BEER On your patrols, did you see, while you were walking did you see any civilians? MR NONDULA Not where I was. MR DE BEER No civilians. Did you see at any stage within eye contact of the main road or the roads that were leading, the side roads, were you at any stage taking into account the traffic that passed on these roads? Could you have witnessed these vehicles? MR NONDULA The vehicle that actually we saw was on the second night, but it was at night and if I'm not mistaken it was in fact a military car because they were patrolling that area since they had observed some footprints, that's the car we saw. MR DE BEER Excuse me, did they - who observed any footprints? MR NONDULA The soldiers because remember in that area there was already now a follow-up being done by the military personnel in the area and they might have seen our footprints and I can testify truly now and say they did see some footprints and they were making a follow-up on that because I think twice we would see them, either going this direction or we see them going that direction, but we had to hide ourselves in most cases and there were also dogs. We could see them, the trucks and everything there. MR DE BEER Trucks and everything, but you just said that it was only cars, you say only one military car. MR NONDULA We did see dogs, I mean dogs, I did see dogs. MR DE BEER Is it now dogs, or is it cars as well, cars and dogs? MR NONDULA The boots we saw, the car we saw. CHAIRPERSON When you talk about a car, can you describe the vehicle? MR NONDULA It was a jeep type but it was at night, I couldn't really say what colour etc. MR DE BEER If you say dogs, were these dogs on the vehicle, or ...? MR NONDULA No, no, they were on the ground. MR DE BEER Were they walking on their own, was it stray dogs, was it police dogs, was it military dogs? MR NONDULA They were track dogs. MR DE BEER So who was with these dogs? MR NONDULA The military personnel that was patrolling the area. MR DE BEER So you saw a military car then. MR NONDULA Yes. MR DE BEER A Jeep-like car? MR NONDULA A Jeep-like car, yes. MR DE BEER And you saw military personnel with dogs. MR NONDULA With dogs, yes. MR DE BEER How many personnel? MR NONDULA I couldn't figure that out because what happened is we were behind a bush hiding ourselves and they were passing by, so from the distance where we were, we could hear the sound of the boots moving in that direction and what we did was to follow behind them because there was no way they were going to come back and look from where they have already checked, so that's where now we could clearly identify some dog prints, foot prints and the boots etc. MR DE BEER And these were the only people or vehicles that you saw? MR NONDULA That we saw, yes, that's right. MR DE BEER Okay. On what road, more or less, was this? Was it the main road, or was it a secondary road? MR NONDULA It would be one of the secondary roads, yes. MR DE BEER But you at no time saw any civilians around the area? MR NONDULA No. CHAIRPERSON So Mr Nondula, from the time that you crossed the river into the country until the time you left, which you said was on the third night, you only saw one vehicle? MR NONDULA Ja it was - the patrol vehicle we saw was on the first night before we crossed, because we wanted to confirm the security system and then when we crossed the second day, as I've said, we just slept, we did not operate. We operated the following night and by that time there was already, our situation was already risky, I'd say, in the sense that this other unit had already planted whilst we had done nothing, so the whole area now was being searched. That's where this whole situation ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Mr De Beer. MR DE BEER Thank you Mr Chairman. On your brief, before you undertook this mission, when you were briefed with regard to the terrain and the population, whether it was a military area, or military zone as you refer to, were you informed at any stage that this area contained any civilians, that there were civilian families living there, or farming there or that the road that you referred to was being used by both military and ...? MR NONDULA Yes, firstly there is a farming community whose then purpose is to safeguard the area. It therefore suggests that those people did have their wives and children must have gone to school or doing whatever chore they were supposed to do around the area, that is a fact. MR DE BEER So am I correct in understanding that before you undertook this operation that you had this knowledge, is that correct? MR NONDULA That's correct, Sir. MR DE BEER Mr Nondula would you agree with me that in planting a landmine, the landmine doesn't ask questions whether the next person who drives over it is going to be a military vehicle or a civilian vehicle, so will I be correct in saying that from the start there was a possibility that if you planted the landmine in that area, that civilians, as you said, farmers with their wives and children, would drive over these landmines, will that be correct? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR DE BEER If you say that you do not target civilian people, would you not say that in planting those landmines and by knowing or having had the knowledge that those landmines could actually kill civilians, that you were actually - that you actually - sorry, just a moment. CHAIRPERSON You can speak Afrikaans if you want to and they can interpret. MR DE BEER Mr Chairperson, sorry, I just lost my line of thought there for a moment. If you can give me just a minute. So, let me rephrase my question. In having that knowledge that the landmine could either explode on the military vehicle or a civilian vehicle, would it not be contrary to the policy at that stage, or to you orders not to engage civilian targets? MR NONDULA Sir, the objective, as I've said, was purely a military objective, to achieve military gains. Now, in a situation where a civilian bumps over a mine, as I've said earlier, that would be a regrettable scenario, as it has actually transpired. It's quite regrettable in the sense that they were not actually aimed at and I may also add that for me at some point, I did say if a person would take his family in an area where there is potential conflict, military conflict, that person is not actually, if I may use the word really at this stage, responsible enough, because he should have removed the family in the area where there is potential military action. MR DE BEER You say conflict and that there was potential military action. MR NONDULA Potential military conflict. Now what I'm talking about is, along the borders in an area that's been earmarked as a military area, military "gebied", in my view and I was convinced that that was the scenery, that was the case, that personnel in that area are purely military personnel. I knew that there was a system that was used in border protection of the Commandos who were regarded as the first echelon, or they composed the first echelon of defence and what was my duty? Per orders I had to be in that area and lay mines in the area I believed that the military personnel will be affected by those actions. MR DE BEER In an area where there are both civilians and military people, you've just said that there were farmers, would you know which farmers were in the Commando system and which farmers were not? MR NONDULA No, not at all. MR DE BEER So you knew that there were farmers there and there were military personnel which travelled along the road, is that correct? MR NONDULA I knew that the farmers in that area belonged to that system of Commandos for the protection of the border areas in South Africa, that's what I knew and I was made to know. MR DE BEER How did you know that? MR NONDULA As I've said, the briefing itself strictly explained that to us that the farming community are regarded from now henceforth as the first echelon of defence. They are trained soldiers, fulfilling other duties to the Government, by being in the farming business and it is only on that score that my conscience became clear in my undertakings. MR DE BEER So are you trying to say that the farmers in the area were the Commandos and were in the Commando system and actually a threat to your military operations in that area? MR NONDULA Exactly, Sir. MR DE BEER Why would you think that the farmers in the area would go into having a Commando system? MR NONDULA The system of securing the borders of our country at that time was and I believed, based on the Commando system, together with the regular personnel, for information as to other military activities happening in the area, either to report them or to act upon them, according to their instructions. MR DE BEER Why would it be necessary for them to protect the borders at that stage as civilians and to enter into a Commando unit or ...? MR NONDULA It was their obligation to do that, to protect the borders, to protect the properties. MR DE BEER Could it not also be that in order to protect their wives and their children? MR NONDULA Exactly. MR DE BEER Against what? MR NONDULA Against what they saw as terrorism. MR DE BEER Or could it have been that it was against any attacks from any MK units crossing the border? MR NONDULA Exactly Sir. MR DE BEER Will that be the same as a terrorist attack or not? MR NONDULA That is security work. If you'd hamper or - how can I put it? If you would decide that you are going to be the ear and the eye of the then existing Government, I would have regarded you as my enemy proper. MR DE BEER If there was a threat to your home and your wife and your children, would you not also have engaged in a self-protection unit idea in order to protect not only yourself, but your neighbours as well? MR NONDULA That is true, that would be my obligation but now the line must be drawn here, if I may add, I was fighting a system I believed to be rotten. I was fighting a system I believed to be inhumane, from at the ground of a person who at that stage had no claim to citizenship, to human dignity and whoever then stood to enforce that miscarriage of justice, I was obliged to act upon, whoever he was. MR DE BEER Even if it means killing women and children on a farm that has never been used for military purposes in any way whatsoever? MR NONDULA No, Sir, no. MR DE BEER If you could just give me a minute, Mr Chairman. No further questions at this stage, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr De Beer. Do you have any questions you'd like to put, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Yes, I do Chairperson, very few questions. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Now Mr Nondula, were you at any stage a member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC? MR NONDULA Not at all. MR KOOPEDI Were you at any stage a member of Military Headquarters? MR NONDULA Not at all Sir. MR KOOPEDI The PMC, Political Military Council? MR NONDULA Not at all, Sir. MR KOOPEDI The National Working Committee? MR NONDULA Not at all, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Were you at any stage given minutes of their meetings? MR NONDULA Not at all, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Did you ever attend any of their meetings, that is perhaps prior to you undertaking this mission? MR NONDULA Not at all, Sir. MR KOOPEDI And finally, when you were in the country, that is when you were sent in to do this operation, you personally, did you have a discretion as to where a landmine could be placed? MR NONDULA The discretion, as I've said earlier, lay with the Commander of the unit, himself. MR KOOPEDI Now in any of these mines, is there a stage where you were given an opportunity to decide where to put any of these mines? MR NONDULA Not at all Sir. MR KOOPEDI Now, is it your evidence that with the unit you were with where all mines were planted, this was per instructions of your immediate Commander and not your own initiative? MR NONDULA Correct, Sir. MR KOOPEDI No further questions, thanks Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to put? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Nondula, according to your evidence, if I understand correctly, you never observed any civilians in the area? MR NONDULA No, not at all. ADV BOSMAN If you had observed civilians, would it have made any difference to what you did? MR NONDULA I doubt it because I took the instructions as they came. If then the discretion of the Commander at that time would have been otherwise, I would have followed those instructions. ADV BOSMAN Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, any questions you'd like to put? MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nondula, I see there was a trial where this thing was fully canvassed. Was it possible to identify you with specific instances where these landmines either killed people or injured people? MR NONDULA Can you come again Sir, I can't follow your question. MR SIBANYONI As you are sitting there, do you know, do you have any knowledge as to which people were injured or killed by the landmines which your unit planted? MR NONDULA Yes, the first time I heard about it was in the news. It must have been, ja it was on the 15th of December 1985 and then a follow-up was made through the newspapers that we bought and then prior to the trial itself and during the trial, then I came to see some of those who actually were injured or were affected by my actions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I think what Mr Sibanyoni's asking is do you know whether the mines that your unit, where you were actually involved in the actual laying of the mines, who the victims were of the mines laid by you. In other words do you know whether you laid the mine which the vehicle containing the van Eck's for instance was driving, or the vehicle containing the De Nysschen's was driving in? MR NONDULA If I follow the question correctly Mr Chairperson, the mines that I was made to identify at some point. I was able to say: "Yes, I remember this occasion and that occasion", but I cannot now with definite assurance say: "Yes, I remember all those areas." MR SIBANYONI Were the co-applicants sitting next to you belonging to the other unit? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI None, thanks Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER On this last question of Mr Sibanyoni, do you concede that you were convicted in respect of the mine that killed the De Nysschen and Van Eck families? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And that was done on the basis of a confession made by you prior to the trial? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And also on the basis of certain points that you pointed out to the investigating officers? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And although you didn't testify in the criminal case, you were convicted on strength of that? MR NONDULA Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGTENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer? MR DE BEER No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you Mr Nondula. That completes your testimony, you may stand down now. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. That constitutes the evidence in as far as the application of applicant Nondula is concerned. I would like to call the next applicant, Chairperson. I will be guided by you in terms of the breaks we are to have, I realise we are behind times. CHAIRPERSON I think we should have a very short break. Five minutes. Not five minutes meaning thirty-five minutes. Just a five minute break to give the interpreters time to let their throats rest for a while and perhaps have a drink of water or something. We'll just take a very short adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS