amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-03 MESSINA 1 JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI AM 6046/97 LANDMINE EXPLOSIONS AND DEATH OF MEMBERS OF DE NYSSCHEN AND VAN ECK FAMILIES https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54301&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200703me.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the next applicant will be Mr Jabulani Sydney Mbuli. He's ready to be sworn in Chairperson. JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI (affirmed states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Mbuli I'm showing to you an application form. Chairperson that's on page 29 of the bundle of documents. Is this your application form? MR MBULI Yes. MR KOOPEDI And on page 34 of the said bundle, there's a signature appearing just above the word "Deponent", would this be your signature? MR MBULI Yes, it's mine. MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter that involves the landmines in the Messina area? MR MBULI That is so. MR KOOPEDI Now, at any stage were you a member of a political organisation? MR MBULI Yes, I was a member of the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI When and where did you join the ANC? MR MBULI I joined the ANC in 1981 in Swaziland. MR KOOPEDI Did you receive any military training? MR MBULI I did receive my military training in Angola and the Soviet Union and Tanzania. MR KOOPEDI Now, you've heard the evidence of your co-applicant Mr Nondula, who says that you were part or you belonged to the unit together, do you confirm this? MR MBULI Yes, it's true. MR KOOPEDI Now he also went on to say that upon infiltration, this unit was broken into two groups, one led by Chilies and one led by Agrippa, can you confirm this? MR MBULI Yes, the unit was divided and I belonged to Chilies' group. MR KOOPEDI Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did from the time you crossed the border into the country, into South Africa? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Mbuli, do you know what Chilies' real name was? MR MBULI No, that was the nom de guerre, Chilies, I don't know his real name. CHAIRPERSON You've never learned it, even now as you sit now you don't know it. MR MBULI No. CHAIRPERSON And is he still alive, do you know? MR MBULI No, he died. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. I had asked you to briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did, part of this unit did from the time your crossed into the country, South Africa. MR MBULI Ja, as a unit of twelve we were assigned a mission, as my comrade has already mentioned what was the mission and we decided no, we have to divide because the unit was too big. The other unit will be under - the other six will be under Chilies and the other six will be under Agrippa. Then we stayed a night before because it was late, in Zimbabwe, then we crossed the following day, it was a Monday, if I recall. Then the whole night we planted the landmines in the area shown on our maps, then the following morning, the early hours of the morning which will be around five, then we crossed back to Zimbabwe because we were given strict orders. That mission should be a fast mission. You go and come back and it's what we did. MR KOOPEDI Now how many mines, landmines did your group plant? MR MBULI We planted six landmines. MR KOOPEDI And these are the mines that took you the greater part of the night to plant. MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Immediately thereafter, you say in the early hours of the morning, you went back to Zimbabwe. MR MBULI Ja, we went back to Zimbabwe. MR KOOPEDI Would I then be correct to say that you were inside the country, carried your operation only for that night, one night? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Now in the process of planting these landmines, were you in a position to decide where a landmine should be planted, you personally? MR MBULI No, not personally but the Commander decided that no, we'll plant the mine here and we'll have to do that, it was an order. MR KOOPEDI Now, in as far as you know, which of your landmines exploded, do you know? MR MBULI No, I won't know. MR KOOPEDI Would you know which victims were injured or killed by the landmines that were planted by your group? MR MBULI I won't say that no, mentioning the name that no, it's this person who was, who detonated our mine, but I know that the mines in that area were detonated. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief for this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Sir, your written application has been referred to you by your lawyer, pages 29 to 35, correct, of the bundle, that's your application. MR MBULI Can you repeat it again? MR WAGENER Is this your application, page 29 to 35 of the bundle? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And you took the oath when signing this document that this is the truth. MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Do you still say so? MR MBULI Yes, I'm still saying that. MR WAGENER For which incidents do you apply for amnesty? MR MBULI I applied for the mines exploded in that area which the bigger unit was operating. MR WAGENER The which unit, sorry? CHAIRPERSON He said the bigger unit was operating, in other words are you saying that you apply for amnesty in respect of the mines laid by the twelve of you? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER But the way I understand your evidence, you were not involved in some of the incidents, your smaller group. MR MBULI They were not involved? MR WAGENER Your group. MR MBULI Yes. MR WAGENER Was not involved in all these incidents, why do you apply then for amnesty for all those incidents, I'm not sure? MR MBULI I don't understand you Sir, when you say my unit was not involved because we are a bigger unit. MR WAGENER Were you involved? MR MBULI Yes, I was involved. MR WAGENER In the landmine that killed the family of my client Mr van Eck? MR MBULI Yes, I was involved as a bigger unit. MR WAGENER Were you yourself involved? MR MBULI Yes, I was involved. MR WAGENER In this landmine that killed the family of my client? CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Wagener's asking is, were you personally, yourself, physically, personally involved in the planting of the landmine that killed members of the van Eck family, yourself personally? MR MBULI Sir, I will say as a member of the unit I was involved. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what Mr Wagener's asking is, do you know whether you were personally involved in the actual laying of that specific actual mine that blew up the van Eck family? MR MBULI I won't know because we operated in a very big area. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener. MR SIBANYONI Can I come in here? The unit consisting of twelve members, did it have a name? MR MBULI No. MR SIBANYONI These two units consisting of six members each, did they have names? MR MBULI No. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Why I'm asking you this, if you have a look at page 31 of the bundle, in the middle of the page you say that the victims of your actions were, you refer to a van der Eck family, I assume you wish to refer to the van Eck family and you refer to a labourer, Mr Ndlovu, those were the victims of your actions. Correct? MR MBULI Yes, Sir, in "expantiating" on this one, as I've earlier mentioned that no, as a unit, the thing which I came with this name, it was because of Mr van der Eck appeared on the TV, that no he wants to see the people who were involved in the laying of the mines. I didn't know that no, Mr van der Eck, in which area where we were operating this thing, he stays. No on that background, that's why I included Mr van der Eck. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Wagener's getting at, you've in your application form at page 30, you've singled out the van Eck family and Mr Ndlovu. We know that besides those people, the van Ecks and Mr Ndlovu, there were other victims from the same campaign of laying landmines, for instance the De Nysschen family. Why did you just mention these two names and not all the victims of all the explosions? MR MBULI I know of this name from the newspapers which came out after, on the funeral, when Mr van der Eck was addressing the funeral, when he was out of the hospital, I started knowing and Mr Ndlovu's name, I also took it from there that also he was a victim. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Will you accept that Mr Nondula, the previous applicant, he was convicted for the two incidents that you, in your written application, seem to apply for amnesty? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER But now you say that is wrong. MR MBULI No, I'm not saying that is wrong, we were a unit. Mr Nondula, my comrade, he was arrested, I was not arrested. MR WAGENER But were you part of the same six? MR MBULI Of the same twelve. MR WAGENER But not the same six? MR MBULI Not the same six. MR WAGENER So you were not involved in the two incidents that you refer to on page 31, or am I mistaken? MR MBULI I mean what Nondula he has applied and what he appeared this thing in Court for because he was shown the areas where this thing he operated, I mean it's according to the evidence which Nondula gave. Me, I applied on the basis of people who got killed in the area because of the mines I laid. MR WAGENER Were you in the same smaller unit? CHAIRPERSON He said he wasn't the same as Nondula. MR WAGENER Yes. Were you in the same smaller unit as Mr Mncube? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER He's not applying for these incidents that you refer to on page 31. MR MBULI I don't know, Sir. MR WAGENER Because he was not involved. MR MBULI I don't know, that he will answer himself. MR WAGENER When your unit of twelve, when you were briefed in Zimbabwe, I take it, by whom were you briefed? MR MBULI We were briefed by Mancheck. MR WAGENER Is that Julius Maliba? MR MBULI I don't know that name. MR WAGENER Was he the chairman of the Zimbabwe Regional Politico Military Committee, Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck? is that the person we refer to? MR MBULI If they say he's Julius Maliba, alias Mancheck, that's him. MR WAGENER Chairman, I'm reading from the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ANC submissions. MR WAGENER The May submission, page 54 on the Zimbabwe structure. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Page 54, I'll just write that down. Thank you. MR WAGENER That's right. What did he say? What were you supposed to do on this mission? MR MBULI When he brief us, he told us of that area, those areas next to the border line, Soutpansberg specifically, as the military area. That the community around there, it's organised into Commando structures, the rural Commando structures and our mission is to lay mines and the mines we had were the ...(indistinct) mines. We took the order and we simply did that. MR WAGENER Where were you supposed to lay the mines? MR MBULI On the patrol roads. MR WAGENER Only the patrol roads? MR MBULI Pardon? MR WAGENER Only patrol roads? MR MBULI Yes, the patrol roads. MR WAGENER So, if your colleague, Mr Nondula, and his unit laid mines not patrolled by the military, were they not following the orders? MR MBULI Can you repeat that Sir? MR WAGENER I asked you, you said your orders were to lay mines on the roads patrolled by the military, okay? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Now I ask you, so if the other unit of Mr Nondula laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders? MR MBULI Nondula, he didn't say that this thing ...(intervention) MR WAGENER I'm asking you, I'm asking you now. MR MBULI No, I won't answer for Nondula. If you ask me about my unit, I think that will be okay. MR WAGENER Yes. Yes. MR MBULI Us, we laid mines in the patrol roads used by the military. MR WAGENER Well, I'm asking you if the other sub-unit laid mines not on roads used by the military, were they acting outside the orders given to the big unit? That's my question. MR MBULI Nondula said they laid mines in the patrol roads, Sir. MR WAGENER Yes, but I'm asking you and you're not answering my question. If evidence will show that they planted mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside the orders of this Mancheck? MR MBULI That will be difficult for me to answer for somebody else. MR WAGENER But you were present when the orders were given to the twelve of you. MR MBULI Yes. MR WAGENER Well then you can answer the question. It shouldn't be difficult. It's a simple question. MR MBULI Okay, I'll simply say this, Sir. When we were given order, they said the area, it's organised into rural Commandos. Everybody who's there is attached to this structure. MR WAGENER Are you serious with that answer? MR MBULI Yes, I'm serious. MR WAGENER So the black labourers on the farms, were they also part of the structure? MR MBULI I'll say sorry Sir for the labourer who was a victim of our actions. MR WAGENER But were they a target as well, these labourers? Were they targets of yours? MR MBULI No, we were not specifically aiming at certain individuals, we were only attacking. We laid the mines to the patrol road. If the labourer he drove on top of this thing when he was driving through the patrol road, that's why I'm saying, I'm sorry for that. MR WAGENER But we've now had a long debate and you still haven't answered my question. MR MBULI Sir, what's your question? MR WAGENER For the fourth time, the question is, you were present when Mancheck gave instructions. MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER And you told us that the instructions were that mines should be laid on roads used by the military. MR MBULI Yes. MR WAGENER Now the question is, if the other sub-unit, group of six, laid mines on roads not used by the military, were they acting outside these orders given by Mancheck? That's the question. MR MBULI I think I've answered that one, Sir. MR WAGENER No you haven't. MR MBULI No, I've answered that one. MR WAGENER Was it a yes or a no? You haven't answered the question, Sir. MR MBULI I've answered it. MR WAGENER Well, repeat your answer please. CHAIRPERSON We don't need to, we've heard what he's said Mr Wagener, perhaps you can carry on asking, but we don't need to have it repeated, we've got it written down here. MR WAGENER Chairman, maybe I'm then a stupid lawyer, but I didn't hear what he said as being an answer to my question. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't in a yes or no form. MR WAGENER Well it was no answer at all to the question put. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well you can use that in argument, we don't have to have him repeating what he's just said. MR WAGENER When you returned to Zimbabwe immediately after this operation, to whom did you report back? MR MBULI We reported back to Mancheck Sir. MR WAGENER Where was that? MR MBULI That was in Bulawayo. MR WAGENER Was that where this structure, the Regional Politico Military Committee as seated? MR MBULI No, they came to see us. MR WAGENER Who came to see you? MR MBULI Mancheck. MR WAGENER And who else? MR MBULI No, it's Mancheck. MR WAGENER Sorry, I thought you said "they", that's why I'm asking the question. MR MBULI Oh maybe it's my mistake, it's the one who came to see us. MR WAGENER Were you present when a report-back was made to him? MR MBULI Yes, I was present. MR WAGENER What was reported back? MR MBULI I mean everything was on the news Sir, the only thing was to thank us for the mission well done. MR WAGENER But isn't it correct that some of these mines only exploded weeks later? MR MBULI Ja, but the first mines. MR WAGENER Yes. So you referred to, I think there were four incidents about on the 26th and the 27th of November, I think there were about four incidents. You refer to those? MR MBULI Ja, the first mines which exploded. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what were those dates, Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Chairman, I have it that the first two incidents took place on 26th November and another three took place the next day, the 27th. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mbuli, approximately what date did you lay those mines, taking into account that the first one was set off on the 26th of November? MR MBULI Ja it was on - the first mines exploded on the 26th. CHAIRPERSON Yes and then now, how long before that were they actually laid? MR MBULI Pardon? CHAIRPERSON How long before that were they actually laid on the road? MR MBULI They were laid in the evening. CHAIRPERSON Of the? MR MBULI Of the 26th. CHAIRPERSON Okay, so it was the same night? Okay, thank you. MR WAGENER The other group of six, did they report back in Zimbabwe the same time as your group of six? MR MBULI No, they followed later. MR WAGENER How much later? MR MBULI I don't remember. It should be after a week or so after we had arrived. MR WAGENER Were they in the country for about a week? MR MBULI Sorry? MR WAGENER Were they in the country for about a week, laying their mines? MR MBULI They were in the country I think for two days, then they went to Zimbabwe, then there was another walking involved in Zimbabwe. MR WAGENER The two groups of six each, did they enter the country on the same day together? MR MBULI Yes we entered together. MR WAGENER The same day? MR MBULI Yes. MR WAGENER Now we know that two of these mines exploded only on the 12th of December, the one and the other on the 15th of December 85, we know that. That is approximately two weeks after they were laid, will you accept that? CHAIRPERSON Even up to three weeks, the 15th to the 26th of November is closer to three weeks. MR WAGENER Ja. Ja, even up to three weeks, will you accept that? MR MBULI Yes, Sir, I will. MR WAGENER So, if I understand you correctly, these mines were lying there underground for more than two weeks before they were detonated by a vehicle going over them. MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER Does that mean that the road was not used by a vehicle for the same period, about two weeks? How would you comment on that? MR MBULI Ja in that one Sir, I will say maybe the detonation unit of the Government then, failed to discover those mines. MR WAGENER Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think what Mr Wagener's asking you, the fact that a mine was only detonated - sorry was this mine unintentionally detonated, the one on the 15th? MR WAGENER Well that is the one that killed the van Eck family. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it wasn't done by the ... MR WAGENER No, no. CHAIRPERSON It was unintentionally detonated. The fact that a mine was unintentionally detonated three weeks after it was laid, does that mean necessarily that that road was not used by a vehicle for three weeks? In other words between the time the mine was laid and the mine went off three weeks later, it meant that another vehicle didn't use that road in that period? MR WAGENER Ja, I will say that Sir. MR MBULI It means it was not used until the other car detonated it. MR WAGENER And you also said a minute or so ago, that these specific mines, in other words mines that detonated 12 and 15 December, they were not found by the explosives or the mine searching personnel of the Defence Force. Are you aware that they were looking for these mines on the roads in that area? MR MBULI Ja because I mean it's an obvious case. They will be looking for mines. MR WAGENER Ja. Now why do you think were they unable to locate these mines not on a much earlier date? MR MBULI I wouldn't know, Sir. MR WAGENER Isn't it obvious that they were not searching on these specific roads? MR MBULI I may have a different answer for that one. MR WAGENER Well? MR MBULI It's true, they were not searching on these specific roads. MR WAGENER Yes. MR MBULI Well, I can say they've passed it when they checked, they didn't notice it. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, I'm not sure, I see it's half-past four nearly, I'm not sure what you intend doing this afternoon. CHAIRPERSON We'd like to do as much as possible. MR WAGENER Okay, can we continue? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WAGENER Will you accept, Mr Mbuli, that this landmine campaign was a total failure? MR MBULI It was a total failure on what, Sir? MR WAGENER Well, the intended targets were not hit. It's a known fact that 90% plus of the victims were civilians, innocent civilians. MR MBULI I mean it's my first time to see those statistics from you Sir, of that no, there were 24 people, civilians, who died and one in the Security Forces. MR WAGENER Ja. Do you dispute that? MR MBULI I mean, it's what I'm saying that no, it's for the first time Sir to hear those statistics. MR WAGENER Well, will you accept that your President Mr Tambo, became concerned that this campaign, to a large extent, only targeted innocent civilians and therefore he called it off? MR MBULI What I know that no, the late President, Oliver Tambo, he did mention that no, this landmine campaign must stop, the majority becomes civilians, I mean that was the - I will say that was the news from the newspaper, that was the bulletin from the newspapers, that was the only information - that was the only source of information ...(indistinct). Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER For what it's worth, Mr Chairman, I'm reading from page 327 of your bundle, in the left-hand column, the fourth paragraph. In other words, the high echelon, or the Command Structure of the ANC realised that the targets intended to be hit, were not hit, namely the military, during the course of your - operations like yours. MR MBULI But in our operation, what I know, that I successfully operated in that particular area. An order which I was given, I fulfilled them. MR WAGENER Yes. No I accept that what you say is you followed orders, I accept that, but that your mission was a failure in terms of ANC policy and general instructions. MR MBULI Is that a question? MR WAGENER Yes, that was what I put to you, do you want to comment? MR MBULI That the ANC said it was a failure? MR WAGENER Ja. Anyway, if you don't want to - your unit of six, MR MBULI Yes, Sir? MR WAGENER Were they involved in prior reconnaissance before planting the landmines? MR MBULI Chilies was involved. MR WAGENER How do you know that? MR MBULI Ja, because he left us and he went for reconnaissance. MR WAGENER When? MR MBULI It should be around August/September somewhere there of 1985. MR WAGENER And were you in possession of a map when you - of a map specifying the locations of where bombs, mines had to be planted? MR MBULI Yes, Sir. MR WAGENER What happened to this map? MR MBULI The map? MR WAGENER Ja. MR MBULI It has to be returned back to ...(intervention) MR WAGENER Did you see the map? MR MBULI Ja, when everything was planned, it was planned, when we were briefed, we were briefed on the basis of that map that no, we'll operate in this area. MR WAGENER And the other group of six, did they also have a map? MR MBULI Yes. MR WAGENER Do you know that or are you speculating? MR MBULI No we are a same group, when we were briefed we were briefed together. MR WAGENER Ja. MR MBULI Yes. CHAIRPERSON But when you went on the actual mission, when you crossed over into the country and split into two groups, did you still have a map? MR MBULI No. MR WAGENER So were you supposed to enter the country and find the exact roads by night without a map and to know then where to plant the mines? Is that your evidence? MR MBULI No we are saying that Chilies as the person who was on the reconnaissance, he's the one who went fro reconnaissance, he knows the area, we relied on his knowledge of the area. MR WAGENER And was it the same with the other group of six with their leader, apparently Agrippa? MR MBULI Agrippa. MR WAGENER Was it the same there? MR MBULI I think it was the same. MR WAGENER Who gave the overall instruction for your operation? MR MBULI It was Mancheck, Sir. MR WAGENER Wasn't it the National Executive Committee of the ANC? MR MBULI I mean this thing, as you earlier mentioned that what role Mancheck was in that Zimbabwe Front, he's the one who gives us the instructions. MR WAGENER But didn't this instruction come from ...(intervention) MR MBULI Automatically ...(intervention) MR WAGENER Sorry. Sorry, you were saying? MR MBULI That simply means Mancheck gets his orders from the higher echelon. MR WAGENER What is the higher echelon in your book? MR MBULI That will be the National Executive Committee. MR WAGENER So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for this landmine campaign? MR MBULI Pardon, Sir? MR WAGENER So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for the landmine campaign, is that your evidence? MR MBULI Ja because us, we were given orders as the footsoldiers. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether the National Executive Committee gave orders to Mancheck, or are you assuming it? Do you have personal knowledge where Mancheck got his orders from? MR MBULI I'm assuming that he got it from the National Executive Committee. MR WAGENER But on page 33 of the bundle, you state as a fact, if you want to have a look it's there with your lawyer, you state as a fact, that's the way I read your application at least, that the order or approval came from the National Executive Committee. Do you see that there? MR MBULI Yes, Sir, I see it. MR WAGENER Is that your firm belief that that's how it happened? MR MBULI Ja, because any order to a footsoldier, it must come from the National Executive Committee of the ANC, yes. MR WAGENER Before you embarked on this operation, were you at any stage told that your operation had the blessing of the National Executive Committee? MR MBULI Before? MR WAGENER Ja, before you embarked, before you came to South Africa on this operation, were you told: "You needn't worry, the National Executive Committee had authorised or approved your mission", or is this merely an assumption? MR MBULI I mean as a footsoldier Sir, I only receive orders, I don't question orders, because I take it for granted that the orders come from the higher ...(indistinct), yes Sir. MR WAGENER Had you at any stage after this operation met the Chief of your army, Mr Joe Modise? Have you met him personally? After this operation? MR MBULI After this operation? MR WAGENER Yes. MR MBULI No, Sir. MR WAGENER Never? MR MBULI No. MR WAGENER Did any other senior member of your Command Structure, apart from this Mancheck, discuss this operation with you afterwards? MR MBULI No Sir. MR WAGENER Till today? MR MBULI No. MR WAGENER Is that the position? Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, any questions you'd like to put to Mr Mbuli? MR DE BEER No questions from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-exam thanks, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman, any questions you'd like to put? ADV BOSMAN No thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI No questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbuli thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI And in fact Chairperson, that will conclude all the evidence to be tendered in respect of Mr Mbuli's application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. I think if we can try to finish the evidence of the applicants today, it would ... MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Mthetheleli Zephania Mncube, he is ready to be sworn in.