amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-03 MESSINA 1 MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE AM5829/97 MATTER REMOVED FROM THE ROLL https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54302&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200703me.htm MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE (affirmed states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Mncube, I'm showing to you page 12 of the bundle of documents which has an application form. Is this your application form? MR MNCUBE Yes, Sir, it is mine. MR KOOPEDI And at the end of that application which is at page 17 at the bottom, just above the word "Deponent", is that your signature? MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI I'm showing you now page 19 of the bundle of documents. This page 19 is a letter that goes up to page 22. Was this letter done by you, written by you? MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI And do you confirm the contents thereof? MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR KOOPEDI Now at the time in question, that is the time when these landmines were laid, were you a member of any political organisation? MR MNCUBE I was a member of the African National Congress and its military wing, uMkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI Did you receive any military training? MR MNCUBE I did receive military training in Angola and East Germany. MR KOOPEDI When did you join this ANC? MR MNCUBE I joined the ANC since 1979. MR KOOPEDI Where did you join is? MR MNCUBE While I was still inside the country, I joined the underground structures, then I left the country in 1980. MR KOOPEDI And went where? MR MNCUBE I went to Swaziland, Mozambique and to Angola. MR KOOPEDI Now you've heard the evidence of your two co-applicants which is to the effect that you belonged to a unit of 12. Would you want to confirm that? MR MNCUBE Yes, I would like to confirm that. MR KOOPEDI Further evidence was given to the effect that upon infiltration, this group of twelve was split into two groups, the one group being commanded by Agrippa, the other group being commanded by Chilies. Can you confirm any of this? MR MNCUBE That's true. MR KOOPEDI And the group to which you belonged, who commanded it? MR MNCUBE It was commanded by Chilies. MR KOOPEDI Now would you briefly tell this Committee what your group did immediately upon entering South Africa, until you withdrew? What did you do? MR MNCUBE Well, our group had six landmines and they were all under the command of Chilies, as the person who was giving us instructions as to where we're going to lay the landmines, the area that he will point that the landmine must be laid, then we'll do so without questioning that. The area where these mines were planted, as my other colleagues have just said, it was an area which was said is a military area, Soutpansberg military area and they said there's a lot of military activity there. MR KOOPEDI Now these six mines, were they all planted? MR MNCUBE All six mines were planted. MR KOOPEDI After planting the six mines, what did your group do? MR MNCUBE Then we withdraw back to Zimbabwe. MR KOOPEDI At some stage you were arrested and in the Messina area, when was this? When were you arrested? MR MNCUBE Well I was arrested after the first mine incident, that was now in 1986 in December. MR KOOPEDI That would mean almost a year after the group of twelve ...(end of tape) I take it you had also, coming again as you did for the first time, illegally into the country? MR MNCUBE Ja. MR KOOPEDI Now were you alone when you came in at this stage? MR MNCUBE We were five when we came in for the second time and this time our Commander was Agrippa. We were tasked to come in and lay landmines more or less in the same area, more or less. I can't - because I'm not very familiar with the area but they were more or less in the same area, to lay landmines. MR KOOPEDI Now do you remember, can you recall the exact date, the date on which you came into the country? MR MNCUBE If I remember correctly, I think it was December 25, 1986 or it could be 24, somewhere there. MR KOOPEDI Now did you lay any landmines? MR MNCUBE Well we didn't lay any landmines. MR KOOPEDI Did you carry out any operation? MR MNCUBE The main thing was to come in and lay the landmines and we were told that we need to go at least about 20 to 30 kilometres inside the country before we can start laying the landmines and Agrippa, as the person who knew the area, was the one who was going to lead us to these areas. So unfortunately after we were inside the country, a farmer spotted us in one of the places where we were hiding and this farmer started shooting at us. Well, I'll call him a farmer today, but then we felt that he's one of the Commandos who was shooting at us, but at Court it transpired that he was a farmer. Well, he was far from us when he started shooting, then we withdrew from that area where that shooting took place, then after an hour or two, then the military personnel with their helicopters were in the area now looking for us, that's when our shoot-out started between us and the military. At the end of the day, three of my colleagues were killed in that shoot-out and I was captured in the evening, around six, though the first shoot-out started in the morning around five. The other, I learned later when I appeared in Court, he was also killed. MR KOOPEDI So in fact four of your colleagues were killed? MR MNCUBE Ja, were killed during the shoot-out. MR KOOPEDI Okay. MR MNCUBE Then after I was arrested by the military, by the soldiers, they handed me to the Special Branch, then the Special Branch, they started beating me, kicking me, then they used my shoelaces to tie my hands at my back and they put me in one of their vehicles with the corpses. They transported me to an area where they off-loaded me from the back of the bakkie. They put me into another bakkie. Well, they were speaking in Afrikaans most of the time. Somewhere they stopped, they came at the back of the bakkie, then I was blindfolded all the time. The other person there he said to the other one: "No, let's take him through to some other place to kill him", then I knew that was going to happen, it's then when I started to loosen myself and I don't know what to say, fortunately or unfortunately, but I think it was fortunate for me that there was an AK47 at the back of a bakkie which was wrapped in a canvass. Then I took out that AK47 and I fired shots to both people who were transporting me and I escaped. A couple of days later, because I could not get some water and I was hungry, I think it was nine days later when I came across a young girl. I asked some water from that person, the she said: "Okay, wait here", then she went inside the farm. Then she didn't come with water. Later I realised that actually the farmer himself phoned the police and I was picked up by the police and they took me to Messina police station, then at the end of the day I appeared in Court. MR KOOPEDI Other than this girl from whom you asked water, did you meet with any person? MR MNCUBE No. MR KOOPEDI During the time, that is after having escaped from the two police personnel that were with you? MR MNCUBE I didn't meet anyone then. MR KOOPEDI And this girl, what did she look like? Did she look like a military person, did she look like an ordinary person, what did she look like? MR MNCUBE Well to me she looked like an innocent person, I do not think that somehow was trained maybe to look after suspicious people, but after I asked her some water, I realised then that I think this girl was trained to look after suspicious persons and to report to the farmer, so I take it that that girl was part of their security systems, or something. MR KOOPEDI Now let's retreat a bit and go back to the landmines that were laid by your group of six. MR SIBANYONI Maybe, before that Mr Koopedi, I'm sorry, was this girl black or white? MR MNCUBE It was a black lady. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Were you talking about girl, what, five years old? MR MNCUBE I think she was around, I'm not sure really, but to me she looked like she was 16, 15, 16 or 17. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Let's go back to the mines that were laid by your group of six. Do you have any personal knowledge as to which mine detonated when and which mine killed or injured whom? MR MNCUBE I had no knowledge up until I appeared in Court and I was told that some of the landmines were detonated by the De Nysschen family, van Eck family, I think somebody, a truck driver or something, a black person also, but really then I didn't know which mine we laid as a group of six, killed who. MR KOOPEDI But however, is it correct to say that you take responsibility or you take yourself to be part of he group of twelve that laid the twelve landmines? MR MNCUBE Ja, since we operated more or less in the same area and there's - my other colleague said earlier on that we were briefed together as a big group, though at the end of the day we separated and I cannot say for sure what the other six group, what they did that other side, but the other group, my group where I was involved, I know for sure that this is what we did. CHAIRPERSON Were you found not guilty of the murder of the van Eck family? MR MNCUBE I was not found guilty. CHAIRPERSON Not found guilty, yes. MR KOOPEDI And I believe he was not charged with that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you charged with the murder of the van Eck family? MR MNCUBE No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, no further evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER On this last question, Mr Mncube, you were in fact charged for all the landmines, if I reach the charge sheet in my bundle, from page 36 onwards, you were charged. CHAIRPERSON Yes it seems like both accused were charged with all the same offences right up to number 41. MR WAGENER That's right, but you were acquitted on a number of these charges. MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR WAGENER And you were convicted - and the charges that you were convicted on are those incidents referred to on page 20 when you were asked for further particulars. "What do you apply for amnesty for?" and there you stated the incidents that you applied for and those were the incidents where you were convicted, so you only ask for amnesty for those incidents, that's the way I read your application. MR MNCUBE Ja, that is including the landmines where I was involved. MR WAGENER Yes, but those were ones where you were convicted in a criminal Court. MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR WAGENER And those are the incidents that you set out on page 20 of the bundle. MR MNCUBE That's correct. MR WAGENER And that does not include, the way I understand the situation, you're not asking for amnesty for any of the landmines laid by the other group of six. MR MNCUBE Ja, the other group of six, I'm not asking amnesty for that because they acted independently under their own Commander. MR WAGENER Yes. MR MNCUBE Right and we have our own Commander this side. MR WAGENER Right. MR MNCUBE So that's why even at the end of the day the Court did not find me guilty of what happened on the other side, but found me guilty of what happened with the other six where I was involved. MR WAGENER Yes. No I wanted to clear a possible misunderstanding that you are only asking for amnesty for the incidents where you group of six, where that group was involved and not where the group of six of Mr Nondula was involved, you're not asking for that, that's the way I read your application. MR MNCUBE Because I was not involved with that. MR WAGENER Who were the members, who were the other members of your group of six? MR MNCUBE It was myself and Mbuli. The other four, I think they are late by now. CHAIRPERSON We know of Chilies and who else? MR MNCUBE I can't even remember their names. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember what Chilies' real name was? MR MNCUBE No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And Agrippa? Agrippa, do you know what his name was? MR MNCUBE No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Who were the other members of the group of Agrippa apart from Mr Nondula? MR MNCUBE You mean the group that I was involved with? CHAIRPERSON The other group. We know that Agrippa was the Commander. We know that Mr Nondula was a member, do you know who the other four people were in the other group? MR MNCUBE No, I can't remember. I can't remember their names. MR WAGENER Do you know their MK names? MR MNCUBE I'm not sure if Terrence was in their group or in our group. He was in our group, ja. CHAIRPERSON Terrence? MR MNCUBE Ja, it's an MK name, that one. MR WAGENER Okay, I'll accept that you can't remember. Prior to this operation, did you group of twelve receive any training in landmines and how you should go about placing them or setting them? MR MNCUBE Yes, Sir, we did some ...(indistinct) before we came in the country. MR WAGENER What was the nature of this training? MR MNCUBE Sorry? MR WAGENER What was the nature of this training? MR MNCUBE I will say it was just a refresher training because we have done it before in Angola, we have done it Shemenye, it was just a refresher course so that people can refresh themselves as to how to plant mine, to time the mines, how quick to dig, things like that. MR WAGENER You testified in a criminal Court that you had no specific experience or training in the usage of landmines, was that a lie? MR MNCUBE You mean in Court? MR WAGENER Yes in Court. Yes, in the Criminal Court. MR MNCUBE Ja, that time it was a different situation then. MR WAGENER So you lied in Court? MR MNCUBE Yes, I lied then because it was not about TRC, it was another Court under apartheid regime, so one was - I mean I had no choice but to try to protect myself wherever possible. MR WAGENER So would you say that this group of twelve, the larger group, they were trained operatives in explosives and specifically landmines? You were a trained group of operatives when it came to landmines specifically? MR MNCUBE Well I would say so, yes. MR WAGENER Or was it a case that only a few of the twelve were , if I may refer to it as explosive experts and the others merely accompanied and carried the weaponry and so on. MR MNCUBE I'm not sure if I will say there were some experts but as far as I'm concerned, I will say all of us were experts, that's why we were tasked with that mission, because we were experts in laying the landmines. MR WAGENER As you sit here today, Mr Mncube, how do you feel about this landmine operation? MR MNCUBE how do I feel about the landmine operations? MR WAGENER Yes, or campaign. MR MNCUBE The campaign? MR WAGENER Yes. MR MNCUBE Well for me I would say it was a well done job, as far as I'm concerned. I don't know other people how do they look at it because we carried out the order and the order was accomplished as we were ordered. MR WAGENER But we know that the real military targets were not primarily hit, but civilian targets were hit. We know that today. Do you still say it was a job well done? MR MNCUBE I still stand by that, yes, it was a job well done because the area that we were told to go and work is the area that was designated by our Commanders. MR WAGENER Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr de Beer, any questions? MR DE BEER Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE BEER I would just like to add, if you would have known that your landmine is going to kill a civilian, would you still have planted that landmine at that specific spot, or road or field? MR MNCUBE Well, if I'd known earlier on that we was going to kill civilians, I don't think we would have carried out that kind of operation, but we went there with a clear mind that we were attacking a military target. MR DE BEER Even if you did not achieve that military target and you killed far more civilians than military personnel, do you still feel that you achieved your military objective? MR MNCUBE Well it's not for me really to say - okay let me put it this way. As you said our late President, Oliver Tambo, at the end of the day was not happy about the land campaign, it was for them to make that kind of a decision up there but we on the ground, I still believe that it was a well done job, though civilians died and if we knew that we were attacking civilians, we wouldn't have done that, we would not hurt civilians purposely. MR DE BEER You said that - or there were some questions raised with regard to the landmine campaign in general and I believe that the command structure at that stage, the NEC, informed you that they were not satisfied that enough reconnaissance was carried out in the event of more civilians being killed than military personnel, so would you say that they were actually not being truthful when they said that this mission was a failure? MR MNCUBE Come again. MR DE BEER When you command structure said that they had their doubts of the effectiveness of this operation in planting these landmines, would you say that they were not being truthful in saying that this mission as such was a failure. MR MNCUBE Well I would believe that it was a failure because later landmine operations ceased to take place. MR DE BEER One last question, are you proud that you actually achieved your objectives in planting the landmines, or are you still proud that you actually killed women and children and other civilians in the act of planting landmines? MR MNCUBE If I can put it this way, I have no regrets at all for things that I did in good faith. I don't know if I answer your question. MR DE BEER No more questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER CHAIRPERSON Any questions Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI None, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman, any questions? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI No questions from me Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mncube, thank you, that concludes your testimony. WITNESS EXCUSED MR KOOPEDI And Chairperson, that will in fact conclude all the evidence we intend to tender in respect of Mr Mncube and I should go on to say that concludes the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Wagener, what is the situation? Are you going to be calling any witnesses? MR WAGENER Chairman, yes. CHAIRPERSON To testify or to make a statement? MR WAGENER My client wishes to testify. My estimation thereof is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes. CHAIRPERSON And Mr de Beer? MR DE BEER As far as I know and as far as I have discussed with my client, he's not going to testify, but I would like, Mr Chairperson, to take into account that I will discuss this matter with him this evening and in the event that he will be willing to come through and testify, I would just like the Commission to take that into account, that time span. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Wagener, do you want to continue now? MR WAGENER Chairman, I'm not sure what your programme looks like tomorrow. I'm slightly in your hands. I would prefer to commence tomorrow morning, even if it is somewhat earlier than today, but we are in your hands. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well I sincerely hope it would be somewhat earlier than today, seeing we only started after lunch. It would seem in any even that we won't be finishing this matter tomorrow because there's have to be argument as well and Mr de Beer might - but would it be possible to start at 9 o'clock in the morning because we'd like to finish. We have another matter on the roll which we would like to get on straight away after that and hopefully, if we don't finish it, make large inroads into that. Yes, I think then if we could start at half past eight then, if - that would be good. I'd then just like to say that we'll adjourn now to continue with the hearing at half past eight in the morning and when we will be commencing with the evidence of the witness to be called by Mr Wagener and I'd just like to apologise to the people who stayed later than they expected, but we started late, we just wanted to get as far as possible in this matter. Thank you. We'll now adjourn until half past eight tomorrow. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS