amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-05 PRETORIA 1 E F COETZEE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54307&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200705pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, which language would you prefer to use? MR COETZEE Afrikaans. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objection to the taking of the oath? E F COETZEE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR NORTIER Mr Coetzee, your application is contained in this bundle and that is also your formal amnesty application. The facts of the incident are on page 2 to page 5 of this application, is that correct? And the political objectives are contained in Annexure B, pages 13 to 20. Is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR NORTIER I think we should immediately go to the fact of the particular incident. During 1980 you were the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch in the Orange Free State, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR NORTIER And you were station in Bloemfontein. MR COETZEE That's correct. MR NORTIER According to your application you say that you were then a Colonel. You've heard the evidence of Mr Prinsloo, where he said that you were a Lieutenant-Colonel at that stage, do you want to comment? MR COETZEE It might be the case, usually we were just addressed as - whether you were Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel, you were addressed as a Colonel. MR NORTIER Mr Prinsloo and Mr de Bruin who are co-applicants in this application, both served under your command. MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER Take it from there please. MR COETZEE "The Security Branch was responsible for the gathering of intelligence regarding ANC/SACP alliance activities in Lesotho and informers were used for this purpose. All information was conveyed to the Security Headquarters, Pretoria for checking and possible verification. During this period the deceased, Mr Chris Hani, was in Lesotho, he had fled to Lesotho. Informers constantly reported about his activities and it became clear that he was the pivot in the ANC/SACP activities." ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You heard what Mr Prinsloo testified, Mr Coetzee, do you confirm what he said as far as you are concerned? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON He testified that you called him and told him that a plan had to be made and he interpreted that to mean that you were telling him to eliminate Mr Hani. MR COETZEE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I got the impression that he testified that you said that you had got that order from Headquarters. MR COETZEE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you that order? MR COETZEE Chairperson, he eventually became General Viktor, but at that stage he was a Brigadier or a Colonel Viktor. CHAIRPERSON What was his name? MR COETZEE Gen Viktor, but at the time he was a Colonel or a Brigadier, but he was my senior and of course he was a Managing Member for Security Branch Headquarters. CHAIRPERSON Now what did that order entail? MR COETZEE As far as I can remember, Gen Viktor told me relating to the activities of Mr Hani, that a plan had to be made with this man because he was causing a lot of trouble in the Republic and he was in Lesotho, where we had no hold on him and he then asked me whether we could possibly make a plan and whether I had anybody that I could use who perhaps had the expertise or the ability to do it and I said yes, I can find out from Hendrik Prinsloo whether he could do anything about the matter. CHAIRPERSON Is that how you were asked, "Get somebody to make a plan with Mr Hani"? MR COETZEE Correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON What did that mean? MR COETZEE Well I inferred from that that as a result of Mr Hani's activities, Gen Viktor or Head Office or whoever, somebody in Head Office wanted a plan to be made with Mr Hani to eliminate him, to kill him. CHAIRPERSON Why do you make such an inference? Why did you come to this conclusion? MR COETZEE Well it was by virtue of our discussion. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't he just tell you directly, "Get somebody to kill the man" or "Eliminate the man"? MR COETZEE Well I don't know, that was the way we used to talk in those days. Security people used to talk in those terms. CHAIRPERSON Yes ja, we know, we see that each an every day, this code language and cryptic communications. I wish we could just understand a little bit more about it. In any event you say that you interpreted that to mean elimination and you then contacted Mr Prinsloo in that regard. MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he made the preparations. MR COETZEE Yes, he made the preparations and reported back to me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's what I wanted to ask, did he inform you? MR COETZEE Yes, he informed me as to what was going to be done. CHAIRPERSON Did you agree with that? MR COETZEE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON He also said that you told him that he should contact Mr Viktor regarding this matter. MR COETZEE Yes, I'm going to refer to him as Col Viktor, that was the information or the order that we should go to Viktor in Pretoria to report back to him, and that is what he did. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? MR COETZEE And he then came back to me and reported to me that Col Viktor had told him that a plan must be made with Hani, and I then told him he should go to Mr de Bruin. Mr de Bruin was the handler of an informer who reported about Hani. I knew that because all the reports from Lesotho had to go via myself, so I knew that he had an informer who was reporting about Hani. MR NORTIER Could I just hear from you, was it considered at all to arrest Hani and bring him to court by lawful means? MR COETZEE Yes, attempts were made to try and lure him by means of informers to come back to the RSA, to the Republic, but these attempts were not successful. MR NORTIER So you say that pressure was exerted on you, that's on page 4 at the top, you say that you were pressurised into making a plan to cause him to stop his activities. Can you perhaps just give us more information as to where this pressure came from? MR COETZEE The pressure came from Security Headquarters where all the reports were processed and then disseminated throughout the whole Republic, and as Mr Prinsloo also testified, National Intelligence, Military Intelligence, ourselves and all the Security Branches along the border and even away from the border, gave reports regarding Mr Hani's activities and we felt that it was time to do something because these activities were being stepped up and the threat was actually escalating. Now there was no way to negotiate with Mr Hani ...(intervention) MR NORTIER If I can just interrupt you there for a moment. After this incident or after it came to your attention that the attack had been unsuccessful, did you report back on this matter to Brigadier or Gen Viktor? MR COETZEE Yes, I reported it to Viktor. MR NORTIER Alright. The informer, Mr Ramatolo, was at that stage in custody, is that correct? And you also say in your application that bail had been arranged for him. Could you please just elaborate, who was responsible for arranging bail for the informer? MR COETZEE Yes, Ramatolo was in custody, he'd been seriously injured, he was in hospital under police guard and we realised that if the matter came before a Lesotho court, it would be a great embarrassment for the government and if he revealed anything about this operation, it would be a big problem for the government and we also realised that he was in danger of serving a long term of imprisonment if he was convicted on the charge on which he was arraigned. And the third reason was, we felt that we had a moral duty to make some plan with the informer to actually get him out of Lesotho, to indemnify him against these things, these possible things which I've just outlined. MR NORTIER If I can just interrupt you. Who actually paid the bail money, who provided the bail money? MR COETZEE This was done by Security Branch Headquarters. I can't remember whether the authorisation was given that it be paid by my secret fund or whether the amount was paid directly by Head Office. MR NORTIER Head Office, did they approve the payment of this amount? Did they know for whom this amount was to be used and what this person had done? MR COETZEE Yes. MR NORTIER You then contacted the informer at some point, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, we arranged a meeting and the informer was discharged from hospital and he appeared in court. After his bail had been paid, I think it was at his second appearance in court bail was paid and I, by means of W/O de Bruin, made an arrangement for a rendezvous with this informer, since Security Headquarters had given me the order that we should bring the man to Pretoria where he should be used and employed as an askari. MR NORTIER It states that during this meeting a discussion was held with the informer, that there may be a possible embarrassment for the South African Government and that it might be more advisable for him not to attend the hearing. MR COETZEE I put it to him and he agreed to this voluntarily, but he also stated that there were a number of things that he had to finish or conclude in Lesotho and that afterwards he would return to the RSA, as we did. This indeed took place. I did not see him again. He was taken to Pretoria where he was employed at Vlakplaas, as far as I know. I can also state that he came through the river every time and not via the border post, because he was still out on bail. MR NORTIER And with regard to the objectives, the objectives that you dealt with, is it correct that it is embodied in Annexure B to your application? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR NORTIER And do you request that Annexure B be included with your application? MR COETZEE Yes. MR NORTIER You also state in Annexure B that there was a submission made by Gen van der Merwe, do you also request that that submission made by Gen van der Merwe, be incorporated with your application? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER The general background to amnesty applications which is Exhibit A before this Committee, have you had sight of this document? MR COETZEE Yes, I have. MR NORTIER Do you also request that this document be incorporated with your application? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR NORTIER Mr Coetzee, this particular deed which you committed, was it for your own personal gain? MR COETZEE No, definitely not. MR NORTIER Did you commit this deed due to any feelings of malice or vengeance towards the intended victim? MR COETZEE No. MR NORTIER Do you then apply for amnesty today for the following possible offences, namely attempted murder of Chris Hani? MR COETZEE Yes. MR NORTIER Attempted murder of an unknown person? MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER Conspiracy to murder Chris Hani? MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER Conspiracy to murder an unknown person? MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER Intentional damage of property? MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER Conspiracy to commit intentional damage of property? MR COETZEE Correct. MR NORTIER You also apply for any offences with regard to the Explosives Act? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER Defeating the ends of justice? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER Conspiracy to commit defeating the ends of justice? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER Any other offence which may emanate from the facts pertaining to this case? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER Any delictual liability which may emanate from the facts? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR NORTIER That is the evidence-in-chief of the applicant, Mr Coetzee. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NORTIER MS VAN DER WALT I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Coetzee, now from the evidence that we've heard so far, I understand that if there were any question of money to be paid to an informer, you would be the person in control, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes that is correct, Chairperson, the monthly claims which were instated for informers would have had to be approved by me and sent through to Head Office and then it would be paid out to the particular informer. MR RICHARD Do you recall any arrangements to pay money to Mr Ramatolo? MR COETZEE No, I do not. MR RICHARD Do you recall any monies ever being paid to him? MR COETZEE Yes. Let me just rectify that, I think he was paid on a monthly basis. He received those monies, but pertaining to this particular incident I do not know what compensation he received, if any, because he was out of my hands, he was transferred. MR RICHARD When you say monthly remuneration, what would that entail, how much and ...? MR COETZEE Well it's difficult for me to say after 20 years exactly what he was paid every month, but he was indeed paid every month because he was a registered informer. MR RICHARD Now when did you first become aware of Mr Ramatolo's existence? MR COETZEE As a person I never knew him, I simply knew him as a number. The only time that I had a meeting with him was on the day when we met him at the banks of the Caledon and a discussion was held with him regarding the possibility of his defection to the RSA. MR MALAN Mr Richard, is there anything in dispute of the evidence of Mr Coetzee? And if not so, won't you just put the version to him where you have a version which you would want him to comment on, please. MR RICHARD Was there any arrangement for him, or reason for him to expect to be paid for the murder of Chris Hani? MR COETZEE Not as far as I know. MR RICHARD Is it possible that anyone might have promised him money? MR COETZEE Yes, that is a possibility, but I do not know about it. MR RICHARD Could a promise have been made without your authority? MR COETZEE As I've stated, it is possible but I have no knowledge of it. MR RICHARD Now do you know of any conspiracy to murder Mr Hani, apart from the bomb, during the period that you were in control? MR COETZEE No, I cannot recall anything such as that during my period of tenure. MR RICHARD Now you heard what was said earlier when I put various propositions regarding the idea to commit the assassination with a pistol while Mr Hani was walking or running in and around Maseru or Lesotho. Do you know anything of that? MR COETZEE No I don't know about it, but it is possible, because I'm sure that attempts were made to conduct the operation in another way. I believe that there may be something like that. MR RICHARD But it wouldn't have required your specific authority? MR COETZEE No, as I've stated the entire matter emanated from Head Office. I could not take something like that upon myself. MR RICHARD Did you play any role in the choice of Mr Ramatolo as the person to do the assassination? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Why wouldn't you pay a person under those circumstances? MR COETZEE I beg your pardon, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why wouldn't you have paid the man if you had asked him to commit murder? MR COETZEE As I have stated, he was paid a monthly fee for information that he provided, but with regard to the incident itself, I don't know anything about his payment or whether or not he was paid because he was handed over by Mr de Bruin, Mr de Bruin took him to Pretoria. I don't know what happened at that stage, afterwards. CHAIRPERSON If he were to have been paid, where would the money have come from? MR COETZEE Security Head Office. CHAIRPERSON Head Office, not from your coffers? MR COETZEE No, not from our branch. MS CAMBANIS Nothing, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS ADV STEENKAMP Nothing thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR COETZEE Thank you, Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRINSLOO Chairperson, I call Mr de Bruin.