amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-06 PRETORIA 2 WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54314&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200706pr.htm WYBRAND ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE As it pleases you, Chairperson. Mr du Toit, your application is contained in the second bundle which was provided, but if we look at the paginated pages of my bundle, it's from page 71 as far as page 112, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE You confirm the entire content of this application as it is contained here and also the correctness thereof. MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE The specific part which is important for this application is contained in pages 108 and 109 of this bundle, is that correct? MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE I will just take you through that very quickly. At this point in time you on various occasions had adjusted these types of watches to act as switches, electronic switches, is that correct? MR DU TOIT That's correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And the utilisation of these electric switches was for the purposes of enabling bomb operators like here, to train the people who were operating in that field and various ancillary functions relating to explosives. MR DU TOIT Correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE You had absolutely nothing to do with the planning and anything prior to this operation, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE After this operation you were told by Dirk Coetzee that he had used some of these mechanisms in an operation in Swaziland, which is this operation currently before the Committee, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE You then saw this operation as a political operation, you decided not to do anything about this and kept your knowledge to yourself, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE And in the last paragraph on page 109 of the application, you say that you were not aware that these switches were used in an offence way at that stage, is that correct? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE The fact that you didn't talk about this is as a result of the fact that you regarded this operation as one which fell within the ambit of a political act or action by the Security Police against the ANC abroad. MR DU TOIT That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS MAKHUBELE None. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr du Toit, did you know what these watches were to be used for? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. As I said earlier, the watches were normally used for training purposes for bomb disposal operatives. CHAIRPERSON No I know, but were you aware that the watches in this case were to be used to blow up a house in which people could be killed? MR DU TOIT No, I had no recollection that anybody came to fetch it from me for that kind of purpose. CHAIRPERSON But generally speaking, did you know that such a watch could be used or was used for these kinds of operations? MR DU TOIT I didn't know about specific operations. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I'm not talking about specific operations. MR DU TOIT I was aware that such a mechanism could be used for such a purpose. CHAIRPERSON And you associated yourself with that purpose? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you realised that people could be killed? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you reconciled yourself with that possibility? MR DU TOIT Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And also that buildings could be damaged? MR DU TOIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe, what is your client asking for amnesty for? MR VAN DER MERWE Chairperson, I'm of the view that he was not involved in the conspiracy itself, but that my client was an accessory after the fact to the crimes for which the other applicants are asking for amnesty and that by virtue of the fact that he became aware ex post facto of the fact that these mechanisms had been used and that as a police officer he did nothing further to reveal this offence or crime. So that would be being an accessory after the fact. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON Sorry. He prepared a mechanism which he knew was to be used for the purposes of blowing up something, in which people could be killed and he associated himself with that. MR VAN DER MERWE Chairperson, I will leave it in the hands of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any contradictory or opposing argument on that? MR VAN DER MERWE There's a slight semantic difference, I don't think it's really important ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON If it's not romantic, that's fine. MR VAN DER MERWE My client's instructions are that at the point when, or at the stage when he made these things it was for a bona fide utilisation, namely for the training of bomb and bomb explosives and bomb disposal ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR VAN DER MERWE For the simple reason that he was aware after this incident of the fact that these watches had been used for offensive purposes outside the borders of the country, in which people were killed and there was damage to property and he did nothing about that. As a police officer he had knowledge of that. Obstructing the course of justice, perhaps being an accessory after the fact. ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR VAN DER MERWE ... in that he committed an omissio, he did nothing. CHAIRPERSON Are we not pushing it a bit too far when you say accessory after the fact? An accessory after the fact is in my view, a person who does something positive to associate himself with an act. MR VAN DER MERWE Yes, Chairperson, now we're going to lapse into a very legal technical discussion, but the act of being an accessory after the fact can also be constituted by an omissio. There are other duties which a policeman has when he becomes aware of an offence or a crime, so there was a duty on Mr du Toit to actually make known this offence. When he became aware of it he didn't do that and by his omission he helped other people who had committed an offence, to evade justice. CHAIRPERSON I hear what you say. MR VAN DER MERWE I may just add perhaps at this stage, for the Committee's benefit, Mr du Toit drafted this application by himself, without legal assistance. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I'm asking you as a legal representative to help me. What deeds or what offences should we think of an consider in terms of your client's application? MR VAN DER MERWE I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other whether it's defeating the ends of justice or being an accessory, but somewhere between the two one will find the truth and of course then delictual liability as well. CHAIRPERSON But if he gets amnesty, then he gets it for the delictual liability as well. Thank you, you may be excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are there any applicants? MS VAN DER WALT No, no further witnesses or applicants from my side. MR VAN DER MERWE None, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO No evidence. MS MAKHUBELE I will only call Mrs Hlubi, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Hlubi, which language would you prefer to use? MS HLUBI I prefer to use English, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Are you comfortable with English? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objection to the taking of the oath? VALERIE HLUBI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Mrs Hlubi, you stay in Swaziland, which part of Swaziland to be exact? MS HLUBI I stay in Manzini. MS MAKHUBELE Your address? MS HLUBI You mean my residential address? MS MAKHUBELE Physical, yes. MS HLUBI I stay in Manzini, Extension 1, Zakele, Mazibuko Street, Plot 122. CHAIRPERSON In 1980 your house was damaged? MS HLUBI Pardon? CHAIRPERSON Your house was damaged during 1980. MS HLUBI Yes, it was on the 4th of June 1980. CHAIRPERSON By virtue of a bomb exploding. MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON We are told that a house in that area was used as a transit house for members of the military wing of the African National Congress, and applicants now who were members of the Security Forces at the time of South Africa, indicate that a bomb was planted at that house that they regarded as a transit house, have you got any comments about that? MS HLUBI What I know about this house is that it is just next to my house. My house is in plot 122 and the house that was occupied by these ANC men was in plot number 123. CHAIRPERSON What colour was your house painted? MS HLUBI My house was painted white. CHAIRPERSON And the house that you refer to as a transit house, what colour was that? MS HLUBI You mean the one next to me? It was painted cream/white. CHAIRPERSON And the other side of you? MS HLUBI Which one now? CHAIRPERSON 121. MS HLUBI 124. CHAIRPERSON You were 122? MS HLUBI Yes, 122. CHAIRPERSON And 123 was a cream/white house. MS HLUBI Yes, cream/white house. CHAIRPERSON 121? MS HLUBI 121 is my neighbour. CHAIRPERSON What colour house was that? MS HLUBI I cannot recall the colour. CHAIRPERSON Was that perhaps also all white? You can't say? MS HLUBI Ja, I can't say. CHAIRPERSON Anyway you say your house was damaged. MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain or describe the damage of your house? MS HLUBI Okay, I was not there when it was damaged because I was working in Babane, my mother was staying in the house with the little boy of about five years. So when I was at work in the morning at about 8 o'clock, I received a call that I must rush home, something has happened. Then I had to ask for permission. I rushed home. When I reached home I discovered that my house was blown out. There was no roof and the walls were greatly damaged. There were big cracks and inside the house there was no furniture. Curtains were blown out. The house was just in ruins. There was nothing that could be valuable found in there. CHAIRPERSON And did anybody die in your house? MS HLUBI In my house nobody died, my mother was safe and the boy got out safe. CHAIRPERSON And did anything happen to the cream/white house? MS HLUBI So when I got there they told me one person died in the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON In that house? MS HLUBI No, in the cream/white house where the ANC people used to stay. Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the condition of that house, how did that look? How did the damage look there, if there was any? MS HLUBI Well it was also blown out and the other side of the house which was just next to mine was blown out, down. The walls were down. CHAIRPERSON And in your case the walls weren't down? MS HLUBI No, the walls were not down. The roof was out, it was blown out, the whole of it. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, it seems to me - are you saying that there was more damage to the cream/white house than to your house? MS HLUBI There was a lot of damage even in my house because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, I accept that, but if you take the two houses together, which was more damaged? MS HLUBI Both of them. CHAIRPERSON The one you say had the roof ...(intervention) MS HLUBI Yes, the cream/white one was also blown out. CHAIRPERSON And its walls were down, some of its walls were down? MS HLUBI Yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON And in the cream/white house, were the windows broken? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the curtains blown out? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And in your house your curtains were blown out, your windows were broken and the roof blown out? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON What with the walls? MS HLUBI The walls were cracked. CHAIRPERSON Cracked? MS HLUBI They had big cracks, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Carry on. MS MAKHUBELE Were there any other damages to neighbouring properties, or was it just your own? MS HLUBI The other side which was on plot 121, the doors were damaged and the windows also. MS MAKHUBELE Anything else? Plot 124, for example. MS HLUBI I'm not very sure about plot 124. What I knew is that in the morning when they opened the doors they found the head and the arm in front of the door, of the victim that was staying in number 123. MS MAKHUBELE The body was found in plot 124? MS HLUBI Yes, the arm and the head and the remains were inside the house, 123. MS MAKHUBELE Were you housing any activists? Were there any political organisation from South Africa? MS HLUBI In my house? MS MAKHUBELE Yes. MS HLUBI No, there wasn't. MS MAKHUBELE How far are these houses from each other? MS HLUBI Mine and the cream one? MS MAKHUBELE Yes. MS HLUBI They are about 10 metres away. MS MAKHUBELE Have you repaired the damage to your house? MS HLUBI Yes, I repaired it. I had to contact my government and plead with them for a loan, then they gave me the loan and then I started to repair it. CHAIRPERSON What did it cost you? MS HLUBI Pardon? CHAIRPERSON What did it cost you to repair the house? MS HLUBI It cost me about 33 000. CHAIRPERSON What? MS HLUBI Rands. CHAIRPERSON Rand. MS HLUBI Yes, at that time. MS MAKHUBELE What's your comment to the applicants' application for amnesty for this incident? MS HLUBI Personally I've no right to stop them from applying for amnesty, but what I would like the TRC to do for me, I would like to see justice done in this matter. MS MAKHUBELE In which sense? Save for yourself, what would you like? MS HLUBI As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to - like as I said before, I tried to look for, or to ask for some compensation. I wrote to some organisations and I failed, nothing came out. What I would like the TRC to do for me is to give some kind of compensation. CHAIRPERSON You have a passport? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which country do you carry a passport for? MS HLUBI I have a passport for Swaziland. CHAIRPERSON And you're a Swaziland citizen? MS HLUBI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Anything more? MS MAKHUBELE That's the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE MR VICTOR I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VICTOR MR VAN DER MERWE No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP WITNESS EXCUSED MS MAKHUBELE I have no further witnesses. ADV STEENKAMP No further witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. We don't need any arguments from anyone. We'll reserve judgment and deliver it as soon as possible. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS