amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-07 PRETORIA 3 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK AM0066/96 OPERATION DELTA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54315&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200707pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning. For the purposes of the record, I'm Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves for the same reason and thereafter the various legal representatives. MR MALAN Wynand Malan. ADV SIGODI Adv Sigodi. ADV STEENKAMP Andre Steenkamp, I'm the Evidence Leader. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS Crystal Cambanis, representing the Naidoo family. MR ROSSOUW Fanie Rossouw, Mr Chairman, from the firm Rooth and Wessels Attorneys, representing Mr Bosch. MR HUGO Schalk Hugo, Mr Chairman, I'm acting on behalf of Mr E A de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Are you first? MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I believe that Mr de Kock will testify first. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr E A de Kock. EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, you're the applicant in this matter, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And your application appears on page 18 to page 27 of the bundle which has been given to you. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And you confirm the contents as true and correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO You're also asking the Honourable Committee to take note of the fact that you have also submitted a further document to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in respect of the general background, the political motivation and that you ask that to be incorporated in this application. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO You're also requesting the Committee to take cognisance of a further document drafted on your behalf and submitted, in which you dealt with Vlakplaas, the origins of Vlakplaas and the political motivations behind Vlakplaas, etcetera. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And you're asking that that be incorporated in your application as well. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Then to turn to the incident itself, you refer to a meeting which you had with Mr Chris Kentane ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Where will we find that? MR HUGO Chairperson, it is on page 19 of the bundle, first paragraph. Could you just tell us how it happened that you met him and who introduced Mr Kentane to you? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, Mr Kentane was introduced to me as a former member of the Rhodesian Selous Scouts and amongst the black members he was the most highly decorated member of the Selous Scouts. He was unemployed at that stage. He'd previously worked at the Water Board in Johannesburg and he was introduced to me by a former Rhodesian. At that stage - if I say "we", I'm referring to our unit, we were looking for people would could move around in neighbouring States and who knew the areas and he actually satisfied all those requirements. MR HUGO Did you meet him and have a discussion with him? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Where did the discussion take place? MR DE KOCK At Morula Sun. MR HUGO And then what arose from this discussion? MR DE KOCK What arose was a report which I submitted to Gen Joubert, who at that stage was second in command of Security Police at Headquarters. Arising from documentation and reports from Security Headquarters in which the request was made that the Security Branch members should try to neutralise members of the ANC. The word "neutralise" was used in the context of whether it be done by means of recruitment or death and that all attempts should be made to stop ANC members, where possible, outside the borders of the country. Such a report was drafted and Mr Kentane's particulars were reflected and the report was approved, initially for six months, that the operation would run for six months as they say, and after further reports from our side it could have been extended. I checked Kentane's bona fides with Maj Ron Daly and he confirmed that the person was as he was said to be. MR HUGO Now what did this report entail? Firstly, about the function and the orders of Mr Kentane. MR DE KOCK I referred to the documentation and the circulars that were sent to us, amongst others C1 Unit, with the order to neutralise or to stop the ANC outside the borders of the country and I also gave his own detail and why he would be particularly suited to this task, because he'd already worked in those areas when he was a member of the Selous Scouts and had acted against AZAPO and AZANO. CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, what was your aim in appointing this man, what was he meant to do? MR DE KOCK He had to move across the border and he had to infiltrate ANC or PAC structures for us and the method he was supposed to use to - he had to befriend people that he met on the ground, these PAC/ANC people and thereafter he had to try to attack high profile targets, as high a profile as possible. To attack and to kill them, either by shooting them or by using explosives. MR HUGO If I understand your evidence correctly, this order was contained in the submission, the written submission which you made to Gen Joubert. MR DE KOCK That's correct. MR HUGO And he approved that? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Did you specifically indicate to Gen Joubert in which neighbouring countries the operation was to be launched? MR DE KOCK Yes, we mentioned that the man would move in the Botswana area and also in Zambia, specifically those two countries. He had previously worked in those countries when he had been fighting AZAPO and AZANO for the Selous Scouts. We didn't want him to work in Zimbabwe as a result of the fact that he could have been identified. MR HUGO If you say the operation was approved, was there any logistical support given to Mr Kentane after the approval of the operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, apart from the fact that he got a monthly salary he was also given a secret fund car or vehicle which was not traceable back to us. We also provided him with weapons and ammunition and explosives of Russian origin, also not traceable back to the Police or to the SAP. MR HUGO Could I just ask you, the weapons and ammunition given to him, these were illegal weapons and ammunition? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And these weapons and ammunition had been stored at Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK That's correct. The Technical Department prepared a vehicle for us, it was a bakkie, it had concealed panels in which these limpet mines, explosives and weapons etcetera, were to be concealed. MR HUGO Now after the logistic support was provided, what did he do with it? MR DE KOCK The weapons and explosives were concealed at Vlakplaas and Mr Kentane was accompanied to Kopfontein gate on each occasion. That's on the Botswana border. I know I went with him a couple of times so that he didn't have problems in transit, for instance at a roadblock. And he always contacted us when he arrived back, so we could welcome him back at Kopfontein gate and accompany him back. His orders were to establish caches on the other side, in other words Botswana or Zambia, with the objective - the planning was to recruit more of these agents later, but also that he would not return with these weapons and explosives. That was the idea. MR HUGO Now did he report back to you at certain times? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. He also had two telephone numbers. In Mr Bosch's office there were two telephones connected to tape recorders so that he could phone from wherever he was. Both these numbers were unlisted and only agents knew these numbers. In this way he could keep us informed of his movements. MR HUGO Were you his handler at all times or did you appoint somebody else at some stage? MR DE KOCK No, I delegated to Mr Bosch right from the start. As far as the handling was concerned, he had the necessary background and Mr Bosch then reported back to me. MR HUGO In your application you say that his service rendering was bad, it was disappointing but he did report to you about two incidents at some stage, two incidents which had taken place. What were these? MR DE KOCK In the one case, on the road between Plumtree and some other place he was travelling with a member of the ANC, he got a lift from this person because his own car was not operating, and he later shot dead this person with a .25 pistol. We tried to identify this person by means of the photograph album, but we weren't successful. According to Mr Kentane this member of the ANC at that stage was in possession of a Tokarev pistol and he didn't succeed in whipping it out in time, so Mr Kentane succeeded in shooting him. In a second ...(intervention) MR HUGO I beg your pardon, just on this point. Could you through your enquiries, determine whether there had been such an incident and whether there was any truth in his version? MR DE KOCK There had been a report in one of the Botswana dailies regarding a person who had been found and the person had been shot, and the facts in the newspaper corresponded reasonably with what Mr Kentane had told us, but we couldn't identify the person as an ANC member. MR HUGO Can you give us a time, more-or-less, when this incident took place? MR DE KOCK Unfortunately I can't give you a month or a date. MR HUGO Not even whether it was in the '80s or the mid-'80s? MR DE KOCK It was in the late '80s. MR HUGO That was the first incident and then the second incident which he reported to you, what was that? MR DE KOCK He reported in that case that he had made contact in Lusaka with a group, a group known as the Kabalalas, the Kabalalas were apparently something similar to - it was some kind of a reference or a community of people who were engaged in robberies and various criminal acts such as housebreaking etcetera, and that these persons were available to assist him in attacks and so on, attacks on ANC targets. He also mentioned that he had contact with certain people in Lusaka. He didn't refer specifically to members of the ANC, but he did say that there was a group of between four and five people who had one evening gone to a farm outside Lusaka, I think it was 25 kilometres outside Lusaka, where they did attack an ANC house and that they had shot dead an Indian man there. The first report which Mr Bosch and I got about this was when there was a report in one of the English newspapers about such an attack on a farm outside Lusaka. Mr Kentane upon his arrival back in the Republic, which followed shortly after this attack, I think two or three days, reported to us and gave us the detail. I'm not sure, but I don't think Mr Kentane had read the newspaper at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Was it a South African newspaper? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was. MR HUGO And the stage at which this report appeared, would that have fitted in with Mr Kentane's version? Were you convinced that this was a true, a bona fide operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was in the period during which Mr Kentane had been in Zambia and Lusaka and I also made certain enquiries at the Police Intelligence section, whether they knew anything about this and they didn't. I think I still spoke to Brig Alf Oosthuizen. I also enquired from the CCB, from Col Joe Verster. I made a personal enquiry. I drove to Speskop to find out whether they had agents and whether they had carried out the operation and he became very upset about this. He said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, before you continue, why did you regard it necessary to check this out? MR DE KOCK I wanted to be sure in my own mind whether it was our own agent who had committed this act. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any reason to doubt this? Did you have any reason to think that he would lie to you? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I just wanted to make sure for my own purposes, in my own mind, that this was not an overlap of agents, a kind of a double-cross by which agents try to benefit themselves because the operation was financially remunerated, and that's why I went to Verster to enquire and he became very upset to hear that we had an agent there, because he said that Zambia and Lusaka in particular, were their field, their section, that was Defence Force area. This enquiry was merely to get clarity in my own mind as to whether it could have been our own agent. MR HUGO When Mr Kentane reported to you about this operation that between four and five people had gone to the farm and had killed this man, did you see this as in accordance with the order and the instruction which you had given him? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Was Mr Kentane remunerated in any way for this operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, he was. MR HUGO How did it work, the remuneration? MR DE KOCK It was a claim which was instituted referring to the details given by Mr Kentane, as well as an annexure of the newspaper report, plus there was a short report from myself to say that I had made enquiries in intelligence circles and that there was no other person aware of this shooting. MR HUGO Can you remember how much he was paid? MR DE KOCK No, I can't. MR HUGO Now the approval for this money, the remuneration and the disbursement, was it submitted to Gen Joubert? MR DE KOCK I don't know, I'm not sure, I would probably have made this submission to my own senior Commander. CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, I read on page 20 that according to Kentane, he had a .25 pistol which he had used. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That's what he told you? MR DE KOCK That was found on the person which he'd shot on the road between Plumtree and Gaborone. CHAIRPERSON You see it's not very clear, was it only in that case which he had a .25 calibre? MR DE KOCK The weapons which we gave him to establish caches in Zambia and Botswana, contained a variety of things like Makarov pistols, there were AK47s, these were combat rifles, and he was also given an automatic .22 rifle, which is a fully automatic rifle, plus handgrenades, plastic explosives and limpet mines. CHAIRPERSON Please tell us, what did he actually tell you? When he came back, what did he actually tell you about the attack on the house with all these robbers and so on, what did he actually tell you? MR DE KOCK During the enquiries we made from him he didn't go into specific detail, it was relatively wide. We were interested in the fact that they were in fact members of the ANC, the people who were killed. We didn't ask for a description of the house. What I do know is that they used the bakkie to drive to that house, his vehicle, and also that there was an Indian man who had been killed. That's all I know. Because we also only put in a claim for one person killed. He didn't mention more people who were killed. MR HUGO Could you please try to give us a time when this operation took place, more-or-less. MR DE KOCK I unfortunately can't do that. It would have been the day of Mr Naidoo's death. CHAIRPERSON How do you know it was a Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that the person whom Kentane had referred to, was a Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK Then newspaper at the time gave a name and that was the name which had been given. CHAIRPERSON Alright, let us accept that, but is that the only reason why you say today that it was a Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK Yes, that was the name. I also later made enquiries about a person by that name and that was the person given as killed. Mr Kentane didn't say that it was Naidoo, he just said that they attacked a farm, a house and that an Indian man had been killed. CHAIRPERSON And what he told you and what appeared in the newspaper you regarded as the same incident? MR DE KOCK Yes, it happened in exactly the same period of time and during the time that he was there. MR HUGO Did Mr Kentane after this operation, make any reference to the fact that some of the people who had been involved in the operation with him had been arrested and were in detention and were to be prosecuted? MR DE KOCK No. MR HUGO You've noticed from the documents that there's reference made to a Tex who later died, did he mention anything about a Mr Tex or that he later died? MR DE KOCK No, he only said that there were four to five people who had gone to the farm. MR HUGO In your application you also say that later on you started having doubts about Mr Kentane's bona fides and that you thought that he might be a double-agent. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. Yes, I could not exclude that possibility as a result of later events. MR HUGO And he was then transferred to Swaziland. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And he was arrested there. Please tell us what happened, what gave rise to this and what happened afterwards. MR DE KOCK In Swaziland, because we had quite a free access to Swaziland and we could move around freely, we could monitor him on a very frequent basis, almost a daily basis. So it was a question of having a much easier way in which one could check up his reports and verify them, and within a week he was arrested there and - I'm trying to think of the name of the area, anyway he was arrested, he had a Makarov magazine in-between the seats of his car. It was found at a roadblock by the Swazi Police. They searched his car, they found the magazine and they arrested him and detained him for that. The pistol and the silencer and the other ammunition, that was not found, that was in a concealed panel and later I got the vehicle branch of Ermelo to investigate the car and to remove the pistol and magazines. Mr Kentane was to get bail, we arranged for that. It was also done through the Ermelo Security Branch and we then brought him back across the border and his bail was declared forfeited. CHAIRPERSON How did you or your people manage to get bail for him? MR DE KOCK I contacted the Ermelo Security Police and they had contact with the Swazi Police and that's how it worked, through that channel. I didn't myself have contact to those members of the Force. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what would have happened, surely there must have been a Magistrate who was presiding, how could you arrange it for him to get bail? MR DE KOCK I think one must look at what the Swazi Police said to the Magistrate regarding Mr Kentane, because the vehicle in which he'd been found was a vehicle given to us by the Port Elizabeth Security Branch and which had previously belonged to Prof Peter Vale(?) The liaison between the Swazi Police and the Magistrate, I can't comment on that, I can only testify on what I arranged with the Ermelo Security Police. Mr Kentane, we were able to get him out on that basis. CHAIRPERSON Please continue. MR HUGO In respect of the vehicle of Prof Peter Vale, is was a stolen car which the Security Police stole from Prof Peter Vale, in Port Elizabeth? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO You knew that? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO What was your understanding as to how or why it had been stolen from Peter Vale? CHAIRPERSON Dr Peter Vale knew himself as well? MR DE KOCK Yes, he just couldn't say who had done it, but it later it appeared who it actually was. Please repeat. MR HUGO You knew it was a stolen car and that the Security Police had stolen it? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO Why had the Security Police acted in this way? MR DE KOCK As far as the Port Elizabeth Security Branch is concerned it was because they were regarded as leftists, left-wing people and the idea was to cause them as much damage and harm and financial harm as possible. We got several vehicles from them in this way. Some of these cars I later gave to the CCB. MR HUGO Is it correct that you understood that this was part of the Security Police' actions aimed at disrupting the liberal elements as part of the struggle and that's why you as a policeman didn't think it necessary to report it? MR DE KOCK No, it was a fairly common practice to steal the opposition's equipment and to use it against them. MR HUGO And then you mention the possibility that you could have dropped weaponry by means of parachutes, this was pure speculation, it never actually materialised? MR DE KOCK That's correct. If Mr Kentane - Mr Kentane's order from me was to find out whether we couldn't get the leaders of this group in Lusaka closer to the border at Katima Molilu, so that I could cross the border and contact them and have discussions with them so that we could direct them and use them against the ANC in Lusaka. That was one of the thoughts that came up. As Mr Kentane said, they had enough weapons but the didn't have ammunition and I would have attempted to drop the ammunition, or in some other way get it to them. MR HUGO But the fact of the matter is this was mere speculation and it never materialised? MR DE KOCK No, it didn't. MR HUGO Now in the documents there's a reference to statements of the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Pik Botha, were you aware of any such statements by Pik Botha after this incident? MR DE KOCK No, he made so many statements and now he says he never was in the National Party, so I can't take that any further. MR HUGO The fact of the matter is that you didn't report to Mr Pik Botha in respect of what happened here, there was never such a direct contact between the two of you? MR DE KOCK No. MR HUGO Did you report to Gen Joubert? MR DE KOCK No, I would have reported it to Brig Schoon, because the claim that had to be paid out would have had to go through him for approval and then also to the Head of Security, Chief of Security for endorsement, so I would have reported it to him but I have no independent recollection of that. MR HUGO Is it correct that the channel of command was based on the fact that Brig Schoon, in turn, would then go to higher officer and it would depend on whether they took it further to the politicians or not? MR DE KOCK Yes, because it was also an allocated operation with a specific reference. MR HUGO And then as far as the political motivation is concerned, very briefly, why did you give this order to Mr Kentane and what did you seek to achieve? MR DE KOCK Chair, these were actions against the ANC and the PAC, we wanted to try and stop the enemy wherever we found them here or abroad and the general attitude was that almost the whole of Africa was our operational area and it was on that basis that I launched this action. MR HUGO And you're asking for amnesty for murder on Mr Naidoo and the murder which took place in Botswana. Do you have any doubt in your mind that you order and the operation of Mr Kentane, did in fact - or let me limit it to Mr Naidoo, that that in fact gave rise to that and that's how it happened? MR DE KOCK Yes, that's why I'm applying for amnesty, otherwise it would have been easier for me to deny it. MR HUGO And do you have any doubt that the information which Mr Kentane gave you in respect of the person who had been killed in Botswana, that that was not true but false? MR DE KOCK No. MR HUGO You're also requesting amnesty for the illegal possession firearms to which you referred? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And you're also asking for amnesty for the possession of stolen goods, namely the vehicle of Prof Peter Vale? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And amnesty in respect of any delicts which might have been committed in the process and which is covered by the evidence which you've given? MR DE KOCK That's correct. Mr Kentane had also been given a false passport and ID book, so I also ask for amnesty for that. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, I just for a moment want to focus on the role which Mr Bosch as handler, was meant to play, Mr Bosch as handler of Mr Kentane, and I want to ask you whether you would agree with this. Mr Bosch says that as handler he actually fulfilled three basic functions, the first was to give logistical support to Mr Kentane. MR DE KOCK That's correct. MR ROSSOUW And that would include the vehicle, the bakkie in other words, which was technically prepared with false panels etcetera. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And he also says that - you also mention in your statement that Mr Kentane also had to start a business and use that as a cover to make contact with people abroad. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch also tells me that he remembers that certain motor spares were bought at Fleischman's at some stage, for Mr Kentane as part of his business, to take out of the country as products, to export them. MR DE KOCK Yes, he also had invoice books and order books and everything that went with such a business. MR ROSSOUW And Mr Bosch as his handler, would have had to arrange for all of these things as part of logistical support? MR DE KOCK Correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you could also included in this the provision of armaments, weaponry and explosives? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch says that the approval which came from Headquarters had a special approval number, it was an S number. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And all purchases and disbursements and payment of salary would have been done using this S reference number. MR DE KOCK Yes, it was an approved operation. MR ROSSOUW And the second function which he was supposed to fulfil was to give administrative support such as doing all the paper work for lodging a claim, the payment of salaries etcetera, and also the writing of reports. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch will say that he reported to you after reports or messages were received on the tape recorders in his office and this would sometimes, not always, be contained in the report. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And he would say that the last function which he fulfilled as a handler, was to give moral support to this person because this person was a single operative in a foreign country. MR DE KOCK Correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW In your view, could there have been any other functions which a handler had to fulfil? MR DE KOCK No, that includes everything. MR ROSSOUW Mr de Kock, then Mr Bosch says that the way in which he understood Mr Kentane's orders to operate in a foreign country was that the capacity or ability was given to him to identify people, in that he went with Mr Bosch to look through the terrorist photograph album and he had to memorise people's faces and he would then have to attempt to identify them in the other countries. MR DE KOCK Correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW He will also say that support was given to him by means of weapons and ammunition, but the carrying out of that and whom he targeted etcetera, was in Kentane's exclusive discretion. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. As I said he had to look at the highest possible profile ANC or PAC member which he could target. I can only mention that we had very good, very clear aerial photographs of the whole of Lusaka, so we could show him street names and everything, where the homes and facilities etcetera, were, to be able to give him some direction from our side. MR ROSSOUW Yes, but the point is he was never given an order to eliminate a specific person at a specific place. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. The information which we generated through the intelligence channels, we filtered through, we screened it or filtered it so that Mr Kentane could not identify the sources and then we gave him the information which we could, to point him as closely as possible in the direction of the target. But we left it to him to - based on his capacity, to move and to get away and to escape etcetera, to fulfil that function. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch also says that his recollection is, and do you agree with this, that Mr Kentane received R2 000 for the people that he killed? MR DE KOCK I won't dispute that, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And Mr Bosch will also say that he agrees with you that Mr Kentane did not mention Mr Naidoo's name, it was the connection between the report, the newspaper report and the information which Mr Kentane gave of an Indian man which led you to that conclusion. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And then at the stage when he was transferred to Swaziland, Mr Bosch says that he was no longer Mr Kentane's handler, he says he thinks it was Mr Piet Botha. MR DE KOCK It is possible, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And Mr Bosch will also say that he didn't know that the vehicle which was stolen from Prof Peter Vale actually came from Prof Peter Vale, he only knew that it was a Professor whose car had been stolen. Then regarding the contact which Mr Kentane was instructed to keep with Vlakplaas, Mr Bosch says that the telephones were in his office and that the initial arrangement was that Kentane had to phone him once a week, but that he phoned at irregular hours and he didn't keep to that arrangement. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. One of Mr Kentane's complaints, well a complaint and an explanation was that when he wanted to phone from public phone booths, that the phone booths were either out of order or totally destroyed and he struggled to actually get through to us. MR ROSSOUW And then he was supposed to return to Vlakplaas once a month, I suppose to then also draw his salary? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW But he didn't always follow the channels by leaving a message and that you then, or Mr Bosch then drove to meet him at the Kopfontein border post. In some cases what he did was he just turned up. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, it did happen. Obviously such an operator works in a very unconventional way and there can be no rigid guidelines. MR ROSSOUW Mr de Kock, Mr Bosch's actions and his handling of this person was at all times under your command and supervision. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, and I also take responsibility for that. MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Sorry, did I hear right that Mr Kentane did not even say the name Naidoo to you, that was just a conclusion that you drew? CHAIRPERSON ... that he testified. He drew the conclusion from the newspaper report. MS CAMBANIS And in summary, you have absolutely no proof to present to this Committee that Mr Kentane was in fact talking of Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK Please repeat the question. MS CAMBANIS There is nothing that you can place before this Committee, to prove that Mr Kentane murdered Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, physically I can't give any proof. MS CAMBANIS And it is possible that Mr Kentane read the same reports and took credit for a false operation? Claimed for a false ... MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in my view I can't say it's impossible but I'd say it's improbable because I did enquire from other intelligence services and I did a verification where possible, not with the view to corroborate his salary or his remuneration, but simply to find out was it our agent or not, because one wanted to have as much control as possible. MS CAMBANIS Did you know, Sir, that during the same incident it was not only Mr Naidoo that was killed at that location, but another member of ANC, Mr Moss Mtunge? MR DE KOCK I did see in the documents. MS CAMBANIS But Mr Kentane never mentioned that he had killed two people? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, how the attack took place, whether they divided up into two groups or two and one of three, I don't quite know how it exactly happened. MS CAMBANIS Yes, but he only mentioned that a person, a member of the ANC had been killed, according to you. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS And I think you've given evidence that he was paid per murder. MR DE KOCK Well Chairperson, there was an official scale of remuneration for arrest or killing of terrorists, it was a document which was classified as Secret and Confidential and this was at Headquarters and people were remunerated according to this. MS CAMBANIS Yes, but it was per head so to speak. MR DE KOCK That's correct. MS CAMBANIS And the fact that two members of the ANC had been killed in that incident would mean that he would be able to be paid double. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I suppose you can take it like that, but I went on the information which Mr Kentane gave and also what was said in the newspaper report. MS CAMBANIS And can you think of any reason why he would only take half his remuneration? MR DE KOCK I don't know if he knew the other person had been killed. CHAIRPERSON But if he was there he must have known. According to the evidence in the documents the bodies of two people were placed in a bath full of water after they had been shot dead. MR DE KOCK Yes, I can only tell you what I knew. CHAIRPERSON So he must have known if he was there. I'm not asking you why he didn't mention it, I'm simply saying he must have known if he was there. He must have known that two people were killed. MR DE KOCK One must assume that he must have known, yes. MS CAMBANIS Now given your operation, you would have had a general idea of what was happening in Lusaka of that period. If someone had have been arrested for the murder of Mr Naidoo ... MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I didn't have any such detail. I didn't pick it up from the information or intelligence sources and I didn't pick it up from the press either. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kentane was not your only operative in Lusaka, surely. MR DE KOCK No, I believe that Military Intelligence, the CCB and National Intelligence all had sources there, the SAP as well. MS CAMBANIS And shortly after the murder of Mr Naidoo, a Mr Tex was charged and arrested in Lusaka, for the murder of Mr Naidoo. MR DE KOCK I saw that in these documents. MS CAMBANIS And it was publicised at the time. I'm putting that to you, Mr de Kock. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I was not aware of these reports, but I can't say that it didn't happen. MS CAMBANIS And what you're telling this Committee is that with all your informants and all your intelligence, that never came through to Vlakplaas or to any ... to you knowledge, that someone else had been charged with the murder of Mr Naidoo, who was not your operative? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I never became aware of such detail. MS CAMBANIS And as you've said, you communicated with the CCB people and other State departments and no-one told you, "But hang on a minute, someone else had been arrested, not your operative"? Or not a South African operative. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, nobody told me that. As I've said, I also couldn't pick it up from the press reports. I'm sure I would have mentioned it. It would have been for me a further corroboration in respect of the fact that there had been such an attack and the circumstances surrounding it. MS CAMBANIS Do you know this Mr Naidoo who was murdered in this incident? Did you know him? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the photograph album contains about eight thousand photographs and names, so I wouldn't have known everybody. MS CAMBANIS These are the photograph albums that were shown to the operative, Mr Kentane? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Eight thousand photographs? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. Many of the photographs had been cancelled because the people had died and others had been neutralised by means of recruitment etcetera, although their faces were never cancelled because then people would have known that they were sources. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, is it your evidence that in 19 - sorry, when was Mr Kentane - when did you meet him first? MR DE KOCK If I remember correctly it was in 1989. MS CAMBANIS He only began working for the State in 1989? MR DE KOCK Excuse me, I just want to get a pair of headphones. MR HUGO Mr Chairman, we're just having a problem to hear, can we just get one of these earpieces, or whatever they're called. MR DE KOCK Okay, if you can try again. MS CAMBANIS Thank you very much. You met him in 1989, as far as you remember? MR DE KOCK That's correct. MS CAMBANIS And to your knowledge that is when you recruited him for this type of work, in 1989? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, that's correct. MS CAMBANIS And you say the training he received was the going through of these albums containing eight thousand photographs? MR DE KOCK Yes Chairperson, the photo albums were shown to him and as far as possible we worked on memorisation of these photographs. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall what month you actually met him? MR DE KOCK Chairperson no, unfortunately not. CHAIRPERSON Was it early in the year or later in the year or in the middle of the year? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I tried to work it out this morning and I tried to link it to a season and I can't even do that. CHAIRPERSON For how long were you his handler before you sent him outside the country? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I think it was between a month and six weeks. MR MALAN Just before you proceed, Ms Cambanis. Mr de Kock, am I understanding your evidence correctly, that you're saying that Military Intelligence, National Intelligence, CCB, SAP, all had their own agents there? MR DE KOCK That's correct. MR MALAN And I also understand you to say that some of those members had already been recruited and then continued to operate as PAC or ANC members abroad. MR DE KOCK I will accept that some of those people did in fact have such agents there, I personally didn't have such an agent. MR MALAN Because you said that some of the photographs in the album represented people who had already been recruited, but their photographs were not cancelled because that would actually expose them to risk. MR DE KOCK That's right. I'm also referring to, for instance the askaris who worked for us, they were not cancelled in the photograph album so that that could not be a clue to people. MR MALAN So then my question is aimed at this, isn't it incredibly irresponsible to send a person in who can eliminate or take out your other informants etcetera, as if he has the total discretion as to whom to kill? MR DE KOCK It can be seen in that way, yes, but in our case I didn't see it as quite so irresponsible, you try and contact and liaise with other Intelligence Services to cancel out any overlap or problem, so that you don't eliminate their agents. In other words, what I mean by eliminate is kill and in this case Mr Kentane succeeded to kill members of the ANC. MR MALAN Ja, well we're not sure about that yet, because we only have his word and yours, or his word to you. But I just want to get back to the whole principle. If you sent Kentane in and some of the other agents from, say Military Intelligence or CCB, go in and they eliminate him or take him out because they saw him moving around the ANC circles, how would you feel about that? MR DE KOCK Obviously that is seen as an operational loss, it can happen. MR MALAN So you were quite satisfied to kill each other's agents or place each other's agents at such risk? MR DE KOCK That's how it seems today, but it didn't appear to be like that at the time. But it's possible that agents could be killed in that way. MR MALAN Thank you. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, what I'm trying to understand is how Mr Kentane was prepared for this. Eight thousand photographs, is it your evidence that those photographs were all either bona fide members of ANC or double-agents? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, it was the ANC and PAC terrorists, that was the photograph album and only members of the movement appeared in that album. CHAIRPERSON No, but you've just told us that certain photographs were not cancelled or taken out because people were operators of the ANC or PAC who were turned or had been turned, were still left in that photograph album as members of the ANC or PAC. MR DE KOCK That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And if you sent out an operative of yours to commit murder, he would go there and he could have thought that certain people were targets, whilst they actually weren't. MR DE KOCK Yes, at Vlakplaas he moved around freely amongst our askaris, so he wouldn't have killed any of them ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He couldn't, Mr de Kock, because they were not in Botswana. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We are talking about the people who were there, send somebody and say "Look, these people, the people that you saw in the photograph album, those are the people who are members of the ANC or the PAC". The understanding is that if he sees them there, then he must kill them. MR DE KOCK Chairperson yes, it would have been left to his discretion and that's also my order to him, that he should have gone for people with a highest possible profile. CHAIRPERSON Please just tell me something, these photographs in the album, those eight thousand faces in the photograph album, was Mr Mandela's photograph in that book? MR DE KOCK No, he was in prison. CHAIRPERSON So how did you ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The Interpreter could not understand the speaker. CHAIRPERSON How did you distinguish between those people and high profile people? MR DE KOCK Depending on the status lists that were updated quite regularly, one could for instance say "look A is currently in Lusaka and he is the Head of Ordinance or whatever and B is in Lusaka and he is Chief of Transport", for instance, and you would then act accordingly. I can just also add that some of those photographs were taken when some of these people were 18 or 19 years old and they'd already been in exile for a period of 20 years. So it does not necessarily mean that he would immediately identify the person just from the photograph. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the purpose of showing him the photograph album was to help him to identify these people. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, but I must say it was a high risk operation. CHAIRPERSON No I can understand that, it was a high risk operation for many people. What I'm trying to find out is this, the ordinary ANC member, if such a person's photograph was in the album - or was such a person in the album? MR DE KOCK Are you talking about the person who died in Lusaka? CHAIRPERSON No, no, any person. Any ordinary ANC member, would such a member's photograph have been in one of those albums? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, if those photographs were available as they were obtained from our neighbouring countries and Security Branch members, when people went outside the country, they went to these people's homes to try and get photographs. CHAIRPERSON So ordinary members of the ANC in other countries, were also targeted? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then I don't understand your evidence, because your order, as I understand your evidence is, or your order to Kentane was to infiltrate and make friends with the members of the ANC and kill the high profile people. That is what your evidence was. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So why - why I'm asking this question is to try and find out how Kentane would have known who was high profile and who wasn't? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, as the people on the ground liaised with each other and socialised with each other, it would have been left to Mr Kentane to identify the leaders of the movement and then where it was within his capabilities, bearing in mind his ability to escape and not to be caught, then to carry out the task. CHAIRPERSON Was he told how to identify these people? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, to give you the scenario, if he for instance met somebody in a pub or in a bar and it later appeared - and he befriended this person and it later appeared that this person was a member of one of the liberation organisations and this person referred him to his leadership, then it would be left to Mr Kentane to decide. He could make use of several methods, he didn't have to just shoot a person point blank. He could for instance plant explosives or put a limpet mine underneath his car. He was a highly trained member and he already had that kind of experience. CHAIRPERSON So who was actually Kentane's targets? MR DE KOCK Members of the ANC and the PAC, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But that's something different from high profile members. MR DE KOCK Well a person, normally in this kind of job, you try and reach the heads or the chiefs of an organisation or the most senior people in an organisation. I can for instance refer you to the numerous attempts to try and eliminate Mr Hani. CHAIRPERSON Alright. The whole world knew that Mr Mandela was the big ringleader in the ANC, is that not true? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He was not a target because he was in prison, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Not as far as I know, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No I mean as far as you and Kentane was concerned. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, he had already been neutralised, if a person can look at it like that. CHAIRPERSON So he was no threat? He was no threat to the South African Government, he was in the government's prison. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What about a person who was a member of the ANC, who was not a threat to the South African Government? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, at the time, in those days any member of the ANC or PAC was regarded as a threat, an enemy of the State and that's why they were banned, also when you were a member of the SACP. CHAIRPERSON Yes but why were they not a target for killing? MR DE KOCK Is that now Mr Mandela? CHAIRPERSON No, Mandela is in prison, I'm talking about an ordinary ANC member who is not part of the leadership structure. Would he have been regarded as a target? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON By Kentane, that is. MR DE KOCK Yes, these people were actively directed or aimed against the Republic and they were not favourably disposed to the government and they formed support structures and support lines for attacks into the country. CHAIRPERSON So such a person must also be killed? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, the ANC was our enemy. CHAIRPERSON Then I don't understand. According to the reasoning of the South African Government at the time, the UDF was just another name for the ANC. Do you remember that? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, it was regarded as the internal wing of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON And numerous people were put in prison without trial. MR DE KOCK Correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Why were they not eliminated or killed? MR DE KOCK I had no orders to kill anybody in the UDF. If I had such an order, I probably would have carried it out. CHAIRPERSON You see, Mr de Kock, what worries me, or what gives me some trouble here is that there are certain requirements laid down by the Act, that have to be complied with and we as a Panel have to bear that in mind, and on the basis that we assume, and I'm not saying we do so, but on the basis that we assume that the person that Kentane killed, had been Mr Naidoo and the deceased in this application, that Mr Naidoo and the deceased in this application are the same people, if we assume that, then on what basis was he a target? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, because he was a member of the African National Congress and as such he was aimed against the Government of South Africa and our stability which we tried to maintain in the country. CHAIRPERSON Simply because he was a member of the ANC? MR DE KOCK Well if you were a member of the ANC, then you were the enemy. For us it was a very simple thing, just like SWAPO ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But your order to Kentane was "Kill the high profile people in the ANC". MR DE KOCK Chairperson, well that would have been the best scenario ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, his modus operandi, as I understand your evidence, must have been "befriend ANC members on the ground so that you can infiltrate and thereby get to the high profile people in the organisation" and in that way he could kill the high profile people. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that would have been one of the possibilities. If it was necessary for him to kill an ordinary member of the ANC, then that would also have suited us. As I said, if one can do it in terms of rank, it's better to kill a Brigadier than a Constable on the ground, in this type of war. So you would point him to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And if you get the Constable, it's also fine? MR DE KOCK Yes, it's also fine. We lost many, many Constables on the ground during this period. The ANC and the PAC took no prisoners, policemen were shot without further consideration, in the townships. It was a filthy war and the one in the shadows was even filthier. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand your evidence correctly then, that you say that the death of this person, Mr Naidoo, was justified in terms of law, simply because he was a member of the ANC? MR DE KOCK I wouldn't say according to law, but I would say according to the circumstances reigning at the time. CHAIRPERSON The Act says so. I referred you to certain provisions in the Act which we have to make sure have been complied with. Now I just want to understand your application properly. If we assume that this person who was killed was the same person, then according to your evidence you're saying that his death was justified purely because he was an enemy of South Africa at the time, simply because he was a member of the ANC? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, the ANC was a hostile enemy organisation and it committed acts of terror within the Republic. CHAIRPERSON Did you know at that stage that he was a member of the ANC? MR DE KOCK I didn't know all eight thousand faces or people, but if Mr Kentane attacked a person then it would have been a member of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's the next question I want to get to. Was this person's photograph in the album? MR DE KOCK I don't know if ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Didn't you check it out, didn't you check whether there was such an Indian man, Mr Naidoo? MR DE KOCK I don't know, I don't have an independent recollection of that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me, do you remember - let us say it was Mr Naidoo who was killed by Mr Kentane, and it is the same person, the deceased in this application, if those two are one and the same, would that have been the only Mr Naidoo killed outside the borders of our country, as a result of ANC operations? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it's the only one that I'm aware of who was attacked by Vlakplaas, according to our operator. I didn't kill any other Naidoo's as far as I know. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Mr de Kock, you confirmed that the brief to Mr Kentane was to assassinate or murder leadership of the ANC. MR DE KOCK Well amongst other things, Chairperson, if we could kill ordinary members, then it was alright, it was aimed at the ANC and the PAC. MS CAMBANIS And you said in response to a question, that Mr Kentane would have to identify the leaders, it would be up to Mr Kentane to identify the leadership. MR DE KOCK Not only the leadership, also ANC and PAC members. And the identification would have taken place or would have been facilitated by people whom he'd befriend, maybe people who lived next door to ANC members in places like Gaborone and Lusaka, or by means of the people themselves. So in other words, he uses his own initiative and gathering of intelligence on the ground as he moves around. MS CAMBANIS Is it your evidence that in 1989, the State was not aware of the who the ANC leadership was? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, they did know. The leadership situation however was not discussed right down to the ground on a one to one basis, it was just ...(indistinct) generally. MS CAMBANIS Did the photographs of the ANC leadership not appear in those photograph albums? MR DE KOCK There was some of the ANC leaders who had their photographs in the album, but some of these photographs were taken when these people were 18 or 20 years old. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, where are these albums now? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I don't know. Mine as far as I know, I handed in at Headquarters. Every Security Branch had one and I think at Vlakplaas we had six or seven. I think Head Office should still have some of these albums, because along with each photograph album and under each photograph there was a number and the number you can then compare with an index list which accompanies the photograph album, which then gives the person's name and MK name or other descriptions. MS CAMBANIS So it was not possible to tell Mr Kentane from the photograph albums, who is the leadership of the ANC or PAC? MR DE KOCK Well in certain instances you might have been able to do that. What you had to look at is, what is your capacity to absorb it, to absorb so much detail and to memorise it. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, may we take the adjournment at this time? CHAIRPERSON Have you still got long to go, Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS ...(inaudible) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS (Cont) Thank you, Chairperson. Mr de Kock, what was Operation Delta? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it was the name given to this operation, as a reference. In other words, you wouldn't for instance say "Kentane has crossed the border", you would say "The Delta guy" or "The Delta has crossed the border", something like that. That was the reference given by Headquarters for this operation. MS CAMBANIS So Delta only applies to Mr Kentane? MR DE KOCK That's right. MS CAMBANIS Is Mr Kentane a South African citizen? MR DE KOCK He was when we recruited him, but as far as I know he was a Rhodesian, a Zimbabwean. MS CAMBANIS But at the time he was recruited he was a South African citizen? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Where is he now? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, as far as I know he is in the Gauteng area somewhere, I think the Johannesburg area. Where exactly I don't know. I can try and enquire but physically obviously it's difficult for me. MS CAMBANIS Tell me, after a member of the ANC had been eliminated, were other operatives informed of this? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in Mr Kentane's case no, we tried to keep it as quiet as possible. The information channel was very short, just myself, Bosch and Kentane and I think one or two of the white people, members, who knew, but as far as possible we tried to keep his operation and his movements as secret as possible. MS CAMBANIS Yes, but the albums, if I can get back to the albums. The persons who had been eliminated, their photograph would still stay in the album? MR DE KOCK Chairperson no, in cases where members of the ANC had been shot dead here or abroad or had been arrested, it was cancelled, but in the case of askaris like we had at Vlakplaas, it was not done. MS CAMBANIS So they won't an attempt to remove that photograph from the album? MR DE KOCK No, the album stayed in its standard form. MS CAMBANIS Why was that? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, where it was cancelled, those people had been killed or they were in custody, then one would cancel the photographs in the album, but in the case of the askaris it was not cancelled, to ensure that it does not become clear to the ANC should that they later make enquiries or if they find out that the people work for us or whatever. In other words, the people were still operative. It was actually just to cause confusion. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, sorry, I didn't put it properly. A member of the ANC who had been murdered or assassinated, would their photograph still remain in the album? MR DE KOCK The photograph would remain because a number was still linked to that photograph and the photograph would stay in the album, but it was just cancelled. MR MALAN I beg your pardon. Mr de Kock, you said there was an index and index entries, would you then make an addendum in the index to say that the person had been killed etcetera? MR DE KOCK Yes, and if I remember correctly, in the album a thin line would be drawn through the photograph and written "killed" and a date. MR MALAN Can you recall that you ever followed it up and updated the index etcetera, after Mr Kentane made his report? MR DE KOCK No, I have no independent recollection of that. It's not impossible, but it's also possible that we didn't do it. MR MALAN Thank you, Ms Cambanis. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Why would you not have done it? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I wouldn't have done it personally, I would have asked somebody to do it or I would expect it to be done, but I myself didn't do it. CHAIRPERSON No, I'm asking, your album, the album which you handed in, why would it not have been done? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I'm not saying it wasn't done ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But in case it wasn't done, why wouldn't it have been done? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we wouldn't have wanted to link it up with Mr Kentane, that was just an internal situation as we operated it. CHAIRPERSON But that was your secret album, what threats or risks could have arisen if this thing had been cancelled? MR DE KOCK Chairperson no, it was simply just an internal measure on our side to ensure further secrecy. The album, it wasn't a question of it being my secret album, the albums were in use at Vlakplaas and all the askaris also had access to the photographs to be able to bring themselves up to date with new recruits and people who entered the country or who were sent out of the country. So for the Security Police it was a secret document, it wasn't available to the normal Police Force or to members of the public. CHAIRPERSON That's the point. I just want to ask something here, the way or the practice of how this album was handled and the fact that a person could never be sure who had been killed and who wasn't and who was a member of the ANC and who wasn't, who's an agent and isn't an agent, it was such an untidy confused set up, did you people - were you ever worried about the possibility that somebody might be killed unnecessarily? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the photographs of all the people in the album were photographs of members of the ANC/PAC ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And what about your own agents? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I for instance had agents in Swaziland, who were members of the ANC, whose photographs were indeed in that photograph album, but I didn't cancel them and I also didn't send out a telex to say "Cancel, they are now my agents." That is simply a risk which you have to run, but the risk is higher should there be a leakage of information and then it's obvious that sources would be removed to Quatro or a place near Lusaka, where they would be tortured and killed. CHAIRPERSON Quatro, is that where the South African Government bombed the area when there was nobody in the town? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. With Gerard Dietrich's espionage, I think it happened on two or three occasions - I think it might have been Nova Katenga, which had been bombed when it was empty, but that was purely due to Gerhard Dietrich, or Dieter Gerhard's work. Quatro was an ANC torture camp, where people were tortured and killed, South Africans, and women in that camp were also subjected to rape and sodomy by ANC members. And also the Sun City camp near Lusaka, where some of the most abominable deeds possible to imagine were committed. That is what Quatro is. MS CAMBANIS So the summary is that when these albums were shown to operatives in order to train them, who the members are that must be killed, half of the people could in fact have been deceased already, is that what you're saying? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, four thousand members of the ANC had not been killed. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. CHAIRPERSON Let us say 2 000. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the photograph albums were there for identification purposes and that's what they were used for, but all of us in the Security Branch knew that 2 000 members of the PAC or ANC had not been eliminated. CHAIRPERSON I think the point, Mr de Kock, is this, that that album although it had been used for other reasons, as far as Kentane was concerned it was used to give him information as to who were members of the ANC as targets in his operation Delta? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS That is what the attorney is actually asking you. MR DE KOCK Yes Chairperson, I've already testified that information which we received from the Intelligence Services in the Defence Force, that information we filtered and that which related to Zimbabwe and Botswana, or Zambia and Botswana, we tried to channel to Mr Kentane in such a way that he wouldn't be able to infer where the information came from or what the sources were. Where possible we tried to support him as far as possible with what was available. MR MALAN Mr de Kock, just the following question. As the evidence stands now, it sounds like Mr Kentane's order was to kill any one of the 8 000 in the photograph album, but earlier you talked about high profile people and that that was the aim. In other words, this album would also have helped to do the infiltration, he didn't have to kill everybody, he had the discretion. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he had the discretion, he had to make the decision on the ground. An operator decides on the ground what would be the best way of doing something and to decide what is the highest profile person that he can kill. Now if an ordinary member of the ANC, an ordinary member, if he could isolate such a member and kill him, that was also acceptable. MR MALAN Now I'm trying to determine his order and the reason why you showed him the album, because he got an order to infiltrate. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR MALAN To reach the higher profile circle or members, you said something like that. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR MALAN So the photograph album wasn't simply a question of "Look, memorise these 8 000 faces and kill them wherever you find them", he had to use them in whatever way possible to reach the higher profile people and then to use his discretion to eliminate certain people. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, we gave him the widest possible latitude. MR MALAN And if he could kill all 8 000 of them himself, it would have suited you? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN So his discretion was a totally unfettered discretion? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, if it was an ANC or PAC member, he was an enemy and you could kill him. MR MALAN Thank you. Thank you, Ms Cambanis. MS CAMBANIS What did he actually tell, why did he kill Mr Naidoo? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) whoever he killed, ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS When he reported back to Mr de Kock ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He didn't say it was Mr Naidoo, so the question must refer to whoever he killed. MS CAMBANIS I beg your pardon. That is correct, sorry, Chair. The person that he killed, he alleges that he killed, what did say, why did he murder that person? CHAIRPERSON Did he give reasons? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, what I can remember today is that it was an ANC facility where they went to and they attacked it. In other words, I believe that Mr Kentane was fairly convinced that the members or people he'd find there, would be ANC members. It wasn't an ordinary farm with ordinary farmers living there. MS CAMBANIS Do you say that because Mr Kentane told you that it wasn't an ordinary farm? MR DE KOCK Yes Chairperson, Mr Kentane was the person who was there. Mr Kentane was in Lusaka and that's the intelligence that he gathered there. He didn't got to any other farm. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, you may be interested to know that that facility was visited by members of the international community and it was found to be precisely that, a farm. MR DE KOCK Yes Chairperson, it might have appeared to have been the case on the surface, but it didn't necessarily mean that there weren't other activities going on there, or that other actions were launched from there. CHAIRPERSON Mr de Kock, you only had the word of Mr Kentane. MR DE KOCK Correct. CHAIRPERSON And this is the same person who you later had problems with, with his credibility. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So what is being put to you is, it is possible that maybe Kentane had lied to you. It's as simple as that. Is that possible? MR DE KOCK In other words, Chairperson, that he did not attack the farm and did not shoot somebody? CHAIRPERSON Or that it wasn't what he said it was. MR DE KOCK Chairperson no, all I can tell you is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is what he told you. MR DE KOCK Yes, and I'm applying on that basis for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON No, I understand that, but what is being put to you is - well it's not being disputed what he told you, or what you said that he told you, what is being put to you however, is that it is possible that he could have told you it was a farm or a place where firearms and so on and weapons were being stored, and the point that is being put to you is that it wasn't like that and that an international monitoring team went to this place and found that it was indeed a bona fide farm. MR DE KOCK I can't dispute that. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr de Kock, you're familiar with the process when a member of the ANC was captured, on occasion albums would be shown to them during interrogation, to identify fellow MK or ANC members. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Are these the same albums that were in your possession, or similar to the ones that were in your possession? MR DE KOCK Similar, yes, and there was also an additional card index system which they also used. However, I didn't work with that myself. MS CAMBANIS And finally, Mr de Kock, the mother of the late Mr Naidoo, Dr Phyllis Naidoo, seated, has herself worked at the ANC ...(indistinct) and has had occasion to have sight of some of those albums and it is her recollection that her late son's photograph did not appear in any of those albums. MR DE KOCK I can't dispute that, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Nothing further, thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo, any questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Chairperson, just two matters. Mr de Kock, the order which you got from Gen Joubert after you made the submission to him, how did you understand it, was your action to be aimed specifically against senior high profile members of the ANC, or against the ANC in general? MR DE KOCK No, against the ANC in general. MR HUGO And when you reported to Brig Schoon or your senior after this incident, did they in any way reprimand you and say to you, "But look, was this in fact a high profile members who was killed?"? MR DE KOCK No, not at all. MR HUGO And there were no repercussions whatsoever, for yourself? MR DE KOCK No, on the contrary, they approved the claim. MR HUGO A last aspect. The administration of these albums, this was done by C2, is that correct? This is a different section, different to the Security Police? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And you to a large extent, relied on what C2 told you, they did the administrative functions. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HUGO And it was simply then conveyed to you in your capacity as operators, who then had to act on the strength of that? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR DE KOCK Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I believe the next witness will be Mr Bosch - applicant, and I'll ask that he be sworn in.