amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-07 PRETORIA 3 ISAK DANIEL BOSCH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54316&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200707pr.htm ISAK DANIEL BOSCH (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, you are an applicant in this matter, you request amnesty and your amnesty application, the formal part of it appears on pages 1 to 7 of the bundle, do you confirm that? Do you confirm the contents? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Is it your signature on page 7? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, then you also made a short additional statement, supplementary to your application, is that the statement found on pages 8 to 13? MR BOSCH Correct. MR ROSSOUW And the specific incident, operation Delta, that appears on page 11, paragraph 15. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, you've also supplemented your application to comply with the Act, and that part which relates to this incident is found on pages 14 to 17, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Is it your signature at the bottom of those pages? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Then in 1989, where were you working and what was your rank? MR BOSCH I was working at Vlakplaas, as a Sergeant. MR ROSSOUW Who was the Commanding Officer at Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH Col de Kock. MR ROSSOUW And as far as Operation Delta is concerned, could you please just very briefly tell the Committee how you became involved in it. MR BOSCH I was approached by Col de Kock, he told me that I would be the handler of Christopher Kentane, and ...(intervention) MR ROSSOUW In other words, you got an order from him? MR BOSCH Yes. MR ROSSOUW And were you introduced to Mr Kentane? MR BOSCH Yes, I was. MR ROSSOUW Tell us briefly what your role was as the handler of this person, what exactly did it entail? MR BOSCH It was logistical and administrative support, as well as moral support. MR ROSSOUW You don't have to go into too much detail, but could you just lift out the main points as to what logistic support of Mr Kentane would entail. MR BOSCH Mr de Kock gave me a vehicle which I took to the Technical Department, they spray painted it and they built false compartments into this vehicle. MR ROSSOUW What was the purpose of these false compartments? MR BOSCH So that we could convey weapons through the South African and Botswana border posts, so that the man could establish arms caches in Zambia. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR ROSSOUW And then the administrative support, what was that all about? MR BOSCH I wrote his reports, it had to be approved by Col de Kock and it had to be handed in and I dealt with the financial side of his salary and claims and his petrol, petrol vouchers I had to get that and process that so that he could be paid out for his petrol consumption. So it was all the financial part of it. MR ROSSOUW And then moral support, what sort of moral support or support did he need? MR BOSCH I just feel that if you're a handler and you have somebody who you leave out in the cold, he has to know that he can return to somebody and phone and just say "Look, just check up on my wife and children". There must just be somebody for him, somebody he can turn to. MR ROSSOUW So you were the first contact person? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Alright. Now as far as the contact is concerned, what precautions were put in place relating to your office at Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH Two telephone lines were installed, connected up to answering machines and he had to phone me once a week. It didn't matter, any time of night or day, the machines were always on and I would then know what his movements were, where he was, was he healthy and well. MR ROSSOUW And when you got these messages what did you do further? MR BOSCH Well I would report to Col de Kock, as to the man's movements, whether he was in Zambia, Lusaka, that he was alright and that he was busy working. MR ROSSOUW You heard that this operation had been approved at Head Office, did you have personal knowledge of that? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, in the man's file there was the approval and also the approval number and the whole motivation for the operation. MR ROSSOUW Is that the motivation Mr de Kock referred to, which he wrote? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, and that was shown to Gen Joubert. MR ROSSOUW You say the authorisation also had a number. MR BOSCH Yes. MR ROSSOUW What was the purpose of that number? MR BOSCH I think it was for administrative purposes at Headquarters, so that they could know that if something came in a claim or whatever, they knew what it was connected with and what it related to. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, in your application you say that Mr Kentane was trained at Vlakplaas by being shown the photograph albums of the ANC/PAC exiles, etcetera, and he had to memorise these, can you briefly tell the Committee what this process entailed, how was it done? MR BOSCH What happened, I would have gone to Section C2 and then new people who had been arrested had worked through the album and they would say, "Look, I saw A, B or C in Lusaka." I would then have taken those numbers in the photograph album and shown it to the person and said, "Look, if you see these people, please confirm it and tell me where they are." MR ROSSOUW Now apart from being on the lookout for these people, what further orders would he have been given to do outside of the country? This is Mr Kentane. MR BOSCH He had to establish arms caches, he took photographs of ANC facilities outside our borders and he could eliminate these people. MR ROSSOUW Did you at any stage receive an order to convey to Mr Kentane, to eliminate a specifically targeted person, an identified person in a neighbouring country? MR BOSCH I don't understand your question. MR ROSSOUW Did you at any stage receive an instruction or order from Mr de Kock or anybody else, to tell Mr Kentane that he had to eliminate a specific person, person A, outside of the borders of the country? MR BOSCH Yes, after we showed him the photograph album, I would say to him, "Look, try and find this person and eliminate him." MR ROSSOUW Was Mr Naidoo ever identified in this way? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you know Mr Naidoo? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW The incident in which the Indian man was shot dead in Lusaka, could you tell the Committee how was that reported to you by Mr Kentane? MR BOSCH I listened to my telephone messages in the office and there was a message that there had been an attack on an ANC farm and that one person had been killed, that was all, and I reported that to Col de Kock. I think three or four days after that he just arrived at the farm. He didn't arrange for me to go and fetch him, he just arrived. MR ROSSOUW What did you tell you at that stage, what happened? MR BOSCH That there'd been an attack on a farm with those robbers and during the debriefing session, I realised that some of the detail was very vague. I wanted a description, I wanted to have a plan as to what the farmhouse looked like etcetera, so that I could verify it with C2's people who had been on the farm, with some of the ANC people who had been on the farm, but it wasn't quite successful. CHAIRPERSON Why not? Why couldn't he give you this detail? MR BOSCH Chairperson, he couldn't give me the finer detail. CHAIRPERSON Could he tell you why he couldn't do that? MR BOSCH No, he just said he was nervous and that that happened during the night. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, you've heard Mr de Kock testifying that he couldn't give a description of the farmhouse, the house on that farm, is that correct? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW The fact that he couldn't give you the finer detail of the whole set-up on the farm, what was your conclusion from that fact? MR BOSCH I'd handled quite a few people - well, not quite in the same kind of situation, but it did happen in the past that if a person had been to a place once he could tell me what exactly it looks like, where the vehicles are, where the back door was, but I simply couldn't get that detail from him. MR MALAN The question is, what was your conclusion? MR BOSCH My conclusion was I was uncertain whether he had really been there or not. MR ROSSOUW We'll return to this specific incident, Mr Bosch, but just quickly ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Mr Bosch, you said that he turned up three or four days later at Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Had you seen a newspaper report of the incident before he arrived there? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, not yet. CHAIRPERSON Is it possible that a report could have appeared in the newspaper of that country? MR BOSCH Yes, it is possible, Chairperson. And there was another point, if you drive from Zambia, he never did it within three days, he always took a week or longer, so the period which he took to return, the period between the phone call and the time that he turned up on the farm was very short. CHAIRPERSON How long before he turned up, had he phoned? MR BOSCH Three or four days. CHAIRPERSON So he could have listened to a radio report? MR BOSCH He had a radio in his vehicle. MR MALAN Mr Bosch, why do you say three or four days is too quick? From Lusaka to Pretoria is about a day's hard driving, you can definitely do it in two days. MR BOSCH You can, but in the past he had never moved that fast, he always phoned me and said, "Look, I'm in Lusaka, meet me in a week at Kopfontein border post at such an such a time, it will take me a week," because he always came across with the ferry. MR MALAN Yes, but in this case he hadn't even told you he was coming. MR BOSCH No, he didn't, he just turned up. CHAIRPERSON But in any event, he said that he had committed the act. MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then on his own version he came here within three or four days? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So it's not necessarily so that he had to take a week to drive that distance? MR BOSCH No, what I must also concede is that if you did a think like that you probably wanted to get out of the area as quick as possible. MR MALAN Or if you'd read such a report and you thought you could capitalise on, you know, making such a claim for money? MR BOSCH It's possible, Chairperson. MR MALAN So there are lots of possibilities. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, at the point where the idea that you had to go and fetch him at the Kopfontein border post, was that part of your duties as a handler? MR BOSCH Yes, I always accompanied him there and back. MR ROSSOUW And you also heard Mr de Kock testifying about that? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, I confirm that. MR ROSSOUW Now the compensation which he got, did you handle that? MR BOSCH Yes, Mr de Kock told me to submit a claim and I did so, a claim of R2 000 and it was paid out to him. MR ROSSOUW Did he at any stage mention the Indian person's name and say that it was Mr Naidoo? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW After he had reported to you at Vlakplaas, did you see newspaper reports which described Mr Naidoo's death? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, Col de Kock showed it to me. MR ROSSOUW Were there photographs of Mr Naidoo in the newspaper? MR BOSCH No, as far as I can remember it was a very small report and there was no photograph. MR ROSSOUW So did you at any stage have the means at your disposal to reconcile the name in the newspaper with the possible photograph in the terrorist album? MR BOSCH Please repeat the question. MR ROSSOUW So would you have been able, in any way, to link the name of Mr Naidoo in the newspaper report, with any of the photographs which might have been in the photograph album? MR BOSCH I could have used the index, the names were in the index and you could work from the index to the photograph album. But I don't think there was such a name in the album. MR ROSSOUW Did you have a christian name for him, a first name? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW Then Mr Bosch, on your evidence, you had doubt whether Mr Kentane was indeed responsible for the death of Mr Naidoo. CHAIRPERSON If my doubt was so severe, I wouldn't have applied for amnesty, so I can't say today that he did do it or he didn't do it. I can't say that. There are certain things which don't quite hang together and quite gel, but I don't know. MR ROSSOUW Then Mr Bosch, you also listened to Mr de Kock's testimony about the political motivation and the objectives of Operation Delta, do you agree with that? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Do you agree that the targets which Mr Kentane had to attack or eliminate, was entirely in his discretion? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm the political objective set out on page 17, top of page 17? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And in this case you always acted on the orders of Mr de Kock? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you receive any compensation for your role as a handler? MR BOSCH No, nothing apart from my ordinary salary. MR ROSSOUW And your actions in carrying out the orders was not aimed at people and arising from personal malice or spite? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Then Mr Bosch, you're applying for amnesty for conspiracy and planning to commit a murder, murder of unknown persons and also for the handling of weapons and ammunition, illegal weapons and ammunition and also for the forging of documents such as for instance, identity documents and passports. MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And a last point, you had no knowledge of - or did you have any knowledge of the stolen vehicle which was later given to Mr Kentane? MR BOSCH Col de Kock told me - I was on leave for a month, and he told me that they'd used Mr Kentane in Swaziland, using a stolen vehicle which had come from P.E. and that he'd been arrested. MR ROSSOUW So you were not present when this stolen vehicle was received at Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW So you're then also applying for amnesty for defeating the ends of justice? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, that's my evidence-in-chief. MR MALAN Just before you finish, you said that your client is applying for conspiracy and planning for the murder of unknown persons, I think that should be limited to conspiracy within the framework of Operation Delta. MR ROSSOUW Yes. Mr Chairman, my apologies, I actually thought that I would rephrase it and maybe I should put the question to the applicant, to bring it in accordance with the provisions of the Act. Mr Bosch, you're applying for amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder of unknown people, members and supporters of the ANC or PAC, being liberation organisations, is that correct? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW My apologies, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR MALAN Mr Bosch, it could only have been via Operation Delta, surely? It can't cover anything else. MR ROSSOUW That is exactly correct. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr Bosch, your legal representative would have gone through the bundle, you would have seen at page 35 that a Mr Naidoo and a Moss Mtunge were killed on this occasion. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think it's Mtunzi. MS CAMBANIS Dr Naidoo's handwriting ...(indistinct). Thank you, Chair. Prior to seeing this bundle, did you have any knowledge that a second person had been murdered? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS At page 36 you will see the name of the person responsible appears. Prior to seeing this bundle, did you have any knowledge that someone had been arrested for the murders on these two persons? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I saw it now in the bundle. MS CAMBANIS Mr Bosch, I'm sure at previous hearings you dealt with your application at page 5, paragraph (c) and (c). We haven't had the benefit of that previous evidence, could you explain to us what you mean about doing this - you received money and bonuses for the work that you did? MR BOSCH Chairperson, this is something which is constantly cropping up. This was for a Lesotho thing and Col de Kock gave us each R60 after the attack to take our people out for a dinner. It had nothing to do with this. MS CAMBANIS You mentioned in-chief that you were uncertain whether Mr Kentane had been responsible, in your own mind. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Just please summarise for me what steps you took to ascertain that he carried out this operation. MR BOSCH Chairperson, it was the only person whom we had who was working in Zambia, so I went to Col de Kock and de Kock, as he already testified, asked the CCB and he asked various people in the institutions, just to try and pick up the loose threads so that we had a complete picture. MS CAMBANIS Dr Naidoo has the press reports relating to the death of her son and it may interest you to know that they only refer to the death of her son and not to the second person, is that what you recall? MR BOSCH Please repeat the question. MS CAMBANIS The press reports at the time do not refer to the death of a second person, the murder of a second person. MR BOSCH There was only the one of a Mr Naidoo on the ANC farm in Lusaka that had been killed. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kentane, do you know his present whereabouts? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Just for the sake of curiosity, could you tell us what does this man look like, how old is he? MR BOSCH He's a very thin person, he's very delicately built, finely built, he doesn't talk a lot, a very dark complexion and I think about 38/39 years old, if I remember correctly. MS CAMBANIS When did you last see him? MR BOSCH I think in 1993, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS And do you know what was he doing then? MR BOSCH After I left Vlakplaas, I went to DCI and we took him along with us and he worked with Anton Nieuwoudt and then he disappeared off the scene. MS CAMBANIS Do you have any knowledge, has he been charged with any offence within South Africa? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. CHAIRPERSON I thought you were going to ask if he was also cancelled. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions? MR HUGO No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR ROSSOUW No re-examination, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW ADV SIGODI Mr Bosch just tell me, was this amount of R2 000 a standard fee that was paid for the elimination of any person? MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson, there was a list listing various amounts, like for instance R750 for getting an AK47. If you eliminated somebody you got R2 000 etcetera, handgrenade, so much money. So there was an official scale and we worked according to that scale. ADV SIGODI So if somebody were to be sent to go and eliminate somebody, would it be necessary for a handler to negotiate a fee with the person who was going to do the job or would that person simply know that he's going to be paid R2 000? MR BOSCH They knew, yes. CHAIRPERSON Did it vary at all? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. As far as weapons and the killing of people yes, there it would differ. CHAIRPERSON And a high profile person, like Chris Hani? MR BOSCH I think to eliminate Chris Hani ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I suppose there would have been a high price on his head? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson, I suppose that would have been - because he was a high profile person, it was most probably R50 000 or R100 000 concerned, but those amounts were not listed on the scale. CHAIRPERSON How then would you pay him out if it was a higher amount than on the scale? MR BOSCH I would have gone to Col de Kock, he would have had to sort it out and then he would go to Brig Schoon and so it would work up the chain of command, to motivate it. MR MALAN I beg your pardon, this scale, was it a Vlakplaas scale? MR BOSCH No, it was a scale which was used throughout the entire South African Police for people who retrieved certain things. MR MALAN No, I'm referring specifically to elimination of people. MR BOSCH That was also on the other thing. MR MALAN Used it throughout the SAP? MR BOSCH Yes, at the Security Branch. MR MALAN There they had a list for what was paid for what? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN And it included elimination? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN And this list was accessible to all the members of the Security Police? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN So each member of the Security Police knew that there were eliminations taking place? MR BOSCH Yes. MR MALAN How do you know that it was available at other places than Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH It was general knowledge wherever we went. MR MALAN And you mentioned Chris Hani, the high profile person, if he'd been eliminated it would have been worked according to a bonus system which had to be motivated? MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN Because the fixed amount per head was R2 000 remuneration on the scale. MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. Because I know - Col de Kock could perhaps help me out here, but that thing actually we got from the days of Koevoet in South West, quite a long time. MR MALAN Where was this scale of benefits, where was it kept? MR BOSCH I don't know. MR MALAN It's the first time that I've heard this evidence. Over the past four years this is the first time that I've heard of this. MR BOSCH I don't know where they kept it. MR MALAN I'm not saying it was never testified but I have never heard of it. Where was it published? MR BOSCH It wasn't published, we just knew it, everybody knew it. MR MALAN So you assume that everybody knew it but it was never published anywhere? MR BOSCH The Security Branch people knew it. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON So the tax man was not part of the Security Police? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI And just finally, what kind of people would you choose to do this job? What criterion would you use to choose the people to do this kind of job? MR BOSCH I think that would depend on the urgency of the operation, that's why they took this person who had been given very good military training and he knew the area, he was an operator who could function on his own and that's why they took him. You couldn't just take anybody off the street and say, "You go and do this." ADV SIGODI So if you had to get somebody who was going to eliminate somebody, it was necessary to have that person trained. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. ADV SIGODI It was standard practice. MR BOSCH Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And how long would the training last? MR BOSCH Chairperson, in my case what I would have done is I would have gone either to the Police College or to Special Forces and have spoken to those people and asked them about people who had already been trained, who were potential candidates for this operation, and then we would have recruited them and the I would have used them. CHAIRPERSON So they would already have been trained? MR BOSCH Yes. ADV SIGODI But if you took somebody from the street or from, who wasn't trained, how long would the training take? Say in the use of ... MR BOSCH Training with intelligence work, probably six months. CHAIRPERSON Mr Bosch, I didn't ask Mr de Kock this, I forgot to do so, I think perhaps you might also be able to answer this question because you were also at Vlakplaas. In my legal career I always had the impression that the Security Police' targets were always, or almost always, members of MK because they constituted the threat to South Africa. MR BOSCH That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now and then a high profile person like Mrs September would be killed, am I correct? MR BOSCH Yes. CHAIRPERSON And as I understand it from the evidence which I've heard already, the death of Mrs September, that type of killing was done to intimidate the ANC, to show them that they were not boss and members of MK were killed in the course of a war, that was the other side of the story. MR BOSCH Yes. CHAIRPERSON But it was not the policy of the Defence Force or Security Police to kill ordinary ANC members who did not actually constitute a real threat to the Republic or the government. Am I correct? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct, I also understood it in that way, but most of the people - I don't want to say "most", I don't want to actually talk about something which I don't really know about, but most of the ANC members who were in the country at that stage, sources or informers were monitoring them, so they weren't really a threat. I think the incident concerning Mrs September for instance, they just wanted to show the ANC, "Look, we can get anybody anywhere." CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now I'm talking about people who were members of the ANC, who for instance did community work in the ANC, or who helped to send messages to exiles outside the country or between the exiles and their family inside the country, or for instance to act as couriers for money for ordinary members of the ANC. There were many people who were members of the ANC, who went overseas, who were not actually members of MK. Do you agree? MR BOSCH Yes. CHAIRPERSON And they were not targets, they were not seen as threats to the government. MR BOSCH Not a principal threat, but they still were members of the enemy. CHAIRPERSON Yes no, that I accept, but the target of the government and specifically of the Security Police, where those people who constituted a specific threat, namely the ...(intervention) MR BOSCH The soldiers of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Tell me, would a veterinary surgeon had been a target simply because he was a vet and also and ANC member? MR BOSCH He would not have been a primary target, no. CHAIRPERSON You read a report which was shown to you by Mr de Kock and what was read there was that a certain Mr Naidoo had been killed. MR BOSCH That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Could you, or can you say whether the Mr Naidoo referred to in the newspaper report, was the only Mr Naidoo who was an ANC member and who'd been killed by the South African Forces? MR BOSCH The only one that I was aware of, yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any other questions? MR ROSSOUW Nothing further, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON No other witnesses? MR ROSSOUW I don't have any witnesses further, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. On behalf of Dr Naidoo, we just wish to confirm the evidence that she has previously given at the hearing of the TRC, which appears in the bundle and I've already referred to the pages where she indicates the name of the person who was killed together with her son in the circumstances. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, ...(indistinct - no microphone) a document that I've read relevant to another application, the name of Lenny Naidoo, I came across that name. Are you able to say if Mr Lenny Naidoo was the same person as Mr Sadam Naidoo? MS CAMBANIS I'm instructed that he's not the same person. CHAIRPERSON And this is all the evidence that you wish to produce? MS CAMBANIS Yes. Sorry, just for - Mr Lenny Naidoo I'm informed was in fact killed in Swaziland, it was a different time. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I accept that, but I just wanted to know if there were more than one Mr Naidoo that was killed in a similar manner. Mr Steenkamp, do you have any witnesses or questions? ADV STEENKAMP Chairperson, I have no evidence but the request of Ms Cambanis on behalf of the victims, I just want to place it on record what the latest information is regarding Mr Kentane. The latest information which I could obtain was that Mr Kentane, that he during the de Kock investigation in 1995, had been approached by the investigating team. He was found in Empangeni in Northern Natal. He made a statement which obviously has nothing to do with this specific incident. At that stage Mr Kentane was not attached to any security structure such as the Police or the Defence Force, according to my information, and shortly afterwards, Mr Kentane was taken back to Empangeni. The last information which I got was that he was somewhere in Northern Natal, working for a security company. I also talked to the investigating officers who worked with him during that time. Capt Homes was one of them. He attested the amnesty application of Mr Bosch and the information is that the information in the affidavit of Mr Kentane was not confirmed. So the latest information which I have is that Mr Kentane cannot be traced at this stage. He's also not attached to any official security structures, as far as we can determine. It was confirmed that Mr Kentane was a member of the then Selous Scouts, the Defence Force, and that his personal history was also confirmed, that he shortly after the bush war in Rhodesia, came to South Africa where he was employed by the Security Police and it was confirmed also that he worked for the Security Police and DCI. That's the only information which we could get about him. MR MALAN I beg your pardon, Mr Steenkamp, you're saying there was a statement made to the investigating team by Mr Kentane and to quote your words "which obviously has nothing to do with this matter", what do you mean by that? What would the statement have been about? ADV STEENKAMP If I understand correctly, maybe I expressed myself badly, it was about the movement of vehicles used by Vlakplaas during that period. I think my colleague, Mr Hugo might be able to help me out. The statement was regarding vehicles used by Vlakplaas and they tried to find out - well, all the people who had worked at Vlakplaas, were approached to find out what actually had taken place at Vlakplaas in this period, during the investigation and it was in this respect that Mr Kentane was approached. So there was no statement taken from him about this specific incident. MR MALAN And regarding Operation Delta? ADV STEENKAMP Not at all. MR MALAN Does the movement of vehicles not include the vehicle made available to Mr Kentane by Vlakplaas for Operation Delta? ADV STEENKAMP No, it concerned sources or informers working at Vlakplaas and people who were paid by Vlakplaas, it didn't deal specifically with this incident. MR MALAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON That seems to be the end of the evidence. Mr Hugo? Everybody, have you got any argument? MR HUGO IN ARGUMENT Yes, just very brief, Mr Chairman. The ...(indistinct) question obviously in this particular matter is that we find ourselves in the peculiar situation in the sense that, can amnesty be granted for the murder, for instance of Mr Naidoo and also Mr Mtunzi, where there is doubt as to whether they were in fact murdered on instructions of Mr de Kock? CHAIRPERSON Whether they were in fact murdered by the person who says he killed one of them? MR HUGO Yes. Mr Chairman, the problem is, if this Committee finds that they are not going to grant amnesty for this particular version, what are we going to do if amnesty is not granted and Mr Kentane is then traced and found, he makes a statement and he says "Well, I didn't apply for amnesty, I was led to believe that I might become a witness for the prosecution and in fact I'm now prepared to make an affidavit and what Mr de Kock has said in his amnesty application and what Mr Bosch has said, is in fact true, the murders were committed as they said, and this is my version." What is Mr de Kock and Mr Bosch's situation then? I would submit that there's one approach and that is to say that on the probabilities or possibilities, there could have been these murders, they could have been committed and that the Committee is then enjoined to say "Well, there was a proper disclosure, all the other requirements have been met, we're prepared to grant amnesty on that basis." And if it's wrong, so be it, but at least it protects the two amnesty applicants that came here, that have made use of the provisions of the Act, as was envisaged. They have been invited by the legislature to come and make a full disclosure, which they've done, and if they're mistaken, at least they're protected in the sense that they have done their duty. They've also done their duty in the sense that at least they had information about the killing of a particular person or persons and that the family could at least come here and verify as to whether it's true or not. I personally have certain reservations as to whether he was involved in this particular matter. The fact that he only claimed compensation for one person, worries me, but I would still argue that on the evidence before you and taking into consideration that the other requirements have been met, if the Committee so decides, that amnesty should be granted, just to protect these two applicants for the murder of Mr Naidoo and Mr Mtunzi. And then obviously, Mr Chairman, the same problem arises with the murder of this unknown person in Botswana, where we also don't know whether that is in fact true. The other possibility, obviously is to just grant amnesty for conspiracy to commit these murders and to confine it to the Delta Operation. The problem with that is it will only, I would argue, protect these two applicants in as far as the conspiracy that took place here and they might still be extradited and tried in Lusaka and/or Botswana. CHAIRPERSON That can happen in any event. MR HUGO That is also true, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You can't depend on whether we grant amnesty or not. MR HUGO That is indeed true, Mr Chairman. Really those are the submissions that we want to make as far as the offences of murder are concerned. We have already told you that we apply for the illegal possession of the firearms also connected with this particular operation, the Delta Operation. We also apply for the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition in respect of the Swaziland incident, Mr Chairman. And then obviously also the possession of the stolen goods. I refer here to Mr Peter Vales' vehicle and then all the offences and delicts that are covered by the facts of the evidence and then obviously also the issuing of the passports. Mr Chairman, there's just one other aspect which I think we should take cognisance of, is the fact that both Mr de Kock and Mr Bosch acted on instructions from a very senior police officer, who was very explicit in his instruction that this particular operation should be aimed at the ANC in general and members of the ANC, and that's how they understood it and that's how they carried this particular operation. Mr Chairman, unless there are any other ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR HUGO Gen Joubert. Obviously there's no question of personal gain on behalf of Mr de Kock etcetera, etcetera. Those are really the submissions that we want to make. I thank you, Mr Chairman. MR ROSSOUW IN ARGUMENT Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I agree with my learned colleague, there's one aspect and I've considered this and the manner in which I intend to deal with this is to throw the application for amnesty over the board of the specific conspiracy and murders, if any, committed within the Operation Delta itself. Mr Chairman, in my submission that would cover any victim that might be identified positively as flowing from an operation of, or a specific incident in Operation Delta. So that would cover the eventuality of Mr Kentane making a positive identification, should he come forward. That would be my first submission, Mr Chairman. But if I am wrong, then in the alternative I'm also applying for murder for the specific incidents that are mentioned here, Mr Chairman. But with that, I share the similar worries with Mr Hugo as to whether you can actually be satisfied, and that's the wording in the Act, that these were incidents committed within Operation Delta. I've got my doubts about that. So ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR ROSSOUW Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. So the first ...(indistinct) that Mr Bosch would be applying for would be the general one, the conspiracy to commit murder within the borders of South Africa. The conspiracy was committed here. Then the murders of any unknown supporters or members of the ANC or PAC, flowing from Operation Delta. Mr Chairman, I would submit that with that wording it would cover Mr Bosch and Mr de Kock under Section 20(2)(b), as employees of the State and they directed their actions against members or supporters of freedom fighting organisations. So Mr Chairman, I would submit that both applicants fall within the framework of the Act. I further submit that this Committee can be satisfied that they've made a full disclosure as to all material facts within their knowledge, Mr Chairman. I further submit that this is clearly an incident where they acted on instructions, as Mr Hugo said, there was authorisation and Mr Bosch testified as to the procedure which followed the authorisation. And then lastly, Mr Chairman, I would submit that this was an operation carried out with a political objective. Mr Chairman, similarly I share Mr Hugo's sentiments ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON As far as the two applicants are concerned, it was carried out with a political objective, not Mr Kentane. MR ROSSOUW Not Mr Kentane. Mr Chairman, the point has been raised in many applications that the test really to be applied, if you go to the Norgaard Principles, is a subjective test. It's what the applicants believed they were doing, it's to determine whether they acted with political motivation or not, Mr Chairman. It's not an objective test. And on that basis I submit that the two applicants clearly subjectively, Mr Chairman, acted for a political objective. ADV SIGODI Mr Rossouw, just on that point, the problem we have had as the Amnesty Committee, also in relation to other applications where for instance, the ANC officials have taken responsibility for any orders which they sent out to the people, is that that would be tantamount to general amnesty. So how would you distinguish that case from your case? CHAIRPERSON In fact that case was ruled against the ANC by the Cape Division of the High Court. What you are asking us is in effect similar, a blanket-type amnesty because of the uncertainty that we are all faced with. The question is, how do we handle that in the face of that Cape Division decision? MR ROSSOUW Yes, Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the Act specifies - unfortunately I only have the Afrikaans text with me, but the Act states that one can apply for - Mr Chairman, it's Section 18 of the Act, which reads "Any person who wants to apply for amnesty in respect of any act, offence or omission, on the basis of which it was an act which was associated with a political objective, must ..." then the Section continues. Now Mr Chairman, that Act says "any act, omission or offence committed." Now Mr Chairman, I won't even try to go into the arguments that Mr Visser has put before the Committee on numerous occasions, relating to the interpretation of these words, but the gist of it as I understood it, was that you need not specify the specific incident or offence that you are applying for. CHAIRPERSON But that's precisely what the effect of the judgment is. The ANC brought, or certain members, I think 37 of them, brought an application to the TRC, the effect of it is that between them they are taking full responsibilities as having given orders to their soldiers to do whatever they did and in the event of them having committed crimes, these 37 applicants now apply for amnesty in respect thereof. It was a total blanket because nobody could say a particular offence was committed on the orders of this lot. I'm not going to say what I think of the application or the judgment, the fact of the matter is that the Court, I think it was a full bench, said that that can't happen in terms of this Act, and their interpretation is that a specific crime must be - the effect of it is that when applying, you must apply for the amnesty in respect of a specific crime, and that gives us problems. MR ROSSOUW Yes Mr Chairman, I would submit that the problems can be resolved by identifying the offence by way of limiting it to any operation that flowed from incidents in, or actions of Operation Delta. That would be your qualifying criteria. Mr Chairman, that would be my submission. The point to raise or to support that submission is simply this, there might be an offence committed here under the Illegal Immigrants Act, that we don't know about, or we missed it at this stage. If you grant amnesty for murder and ammunition and everything, but if we weren't aware at this stage about the transgression of the Illegal Immigrants Act, for instance, then in twenty years time or whenever, the public Prosecutor can come and prosecute these applicants for that offence, but if it was an incident of all offences that flowed from Operation Delta, I would submit, then one can argue any offence identified or unidentified at this stage, will be covered. CHAIRPERSON Well my answer to you there is, I don't want to open a debate but maybe for future reference, is that it doesn't obviate the constraints we have in regard to that judgment from the Cape Division. Had we been able, or if we are able to make the following order, that amnesty is granted to the applicants in respect of the murder of Mr Naidoo, and all other offences incidental to the commission of that murder, then you'd be right, but you need to be able to do so in respect of the main offence. In this case it doesn't seem like we're able to. Now if we can't, then the incidental offences don't follow because you haven't got a main offence. The incidental offences facilitating the commission of the main offence. MR ROSSOUW Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that's the problem in your argument. MR ROSSOUW I see that, Mr Chairman, but ... CHAIRPERSON Anyway, we've heard you. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I still submit that one need not specifically look at Mr Naidoo, to qualify the applications for amnesty, simply because if one has regard to the elements of the offence for murder, clearly in this instance, Mr Chairman, we've got all the elements to commit murder without the identification of the body at the end of the line. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR ROSSOUW I agree, I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Yes, you're correct. MR MALAN May I just follow this up. The Chair has already referred to the problem of blanket amnesty and especially the reversal of the so-called ANC 37, and if we were to grant amnesty on the basis of your request, including the conspiracy and any murders flowing from the conspiracy, that would be open because there is no disclosure of any specific murder, because we can't make that link, but conspiracy in itself to commit murder, would be an offence, it's an act constituting an offence in terms of both 18 and 19, which one may argue qualifies for amnesty. But it would not entitle them to amnesty for specific murders committed were they charged, if they had any knowledge and any connection. And one may even argue that they may be prosecuted for the murder itself, but it's very unlikely that an authority, if entitled, would prosecute on a charge of murder if he's satisfied that the applicants had no knowledge of that specific murder having been committed. So if we come back to your original formulation, if you ask for - if anything is to be entertained, let me put it this way, I can't see it going beyond the act of a conspiracy to commit murder on a group of persons, as you have identified. Undisclosed, unknown, amongst a group of persons, through a specific project. But it cannot go beyond the conspiracy. MR ROSSOUW Not on the evidence that we have at this stage, Mr Chairman, I agree with that. Similarly of course, the application would be for any delicts committed that flows from the incident. Unless there's anything specific that the Committee wishes me to address you on relating to the application of Mr Bosch. Maybe just one aspect relating to the subjective test. Of course, Mr Chairman, the order that they received would play a vital role in this instance, and there's no question that they acted outside the scope of the order that they received. Thank you, that's all that I've got, Mr Chairman. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF ON RESUMPTION MS CAMBANIS IN ARGUMENT ... except to comment, Chairperson, that I've been on the receiving end of the ANC 37 argument so many times I would have delighted to go on for one hour being on the other side of it, but I ask the Chair to abide by. Insofar as far it is - certainly we know who killed Mr Naidoo, it was not Mr Kentane. To that extent, neither applicants can receive amnesty for any act, omission, relating to the death of Mr Naidoo. Thank you. ADV STEENKAMP I've got no submission, thank you Mr Chairman. NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON We'll take time to deliberate this issue. We'll adjourn now till Monday morning 10 o'clock. MR ROSSOUW Sorry Mr Chairman, may I just interrupt at this stage. I know that there was another application of Mr Eugene Fourie on the roll today, and that application has been withdrawn, Mr Chairman. I don't know if you're aware of that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR ROSSOUW I was just asked by a colleague to ask the Committee. CHAIRPERSON That was withdrawn. MR ROSSOUW It's withdrawn, yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll adjourn. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS