amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-10 PRETORIA 4 WIKUS JOHANNES LOOTS AM4149/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54321&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200710pr.htm WIKUS JOHANNES LOOTS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Loots, you are also an applicant in this matter, concerning the matter that occurred, or where the facility of Mr Serache was blown up? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You have your application in front of you, do you confirm the contents of your application as you submitted it? MR LOOTS That is correct Chair. MR VISSER You also have Exhibit A, the general background in front of you. Is there a section in that that you cannot confirm? MR LOOTS As far as it concerns Botswana, I can confirm everything. MR VISSER Do you then say that you are excluding Lesotho and Swaziland? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you then ask that those sections must be incorporated into your evidence? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER Exhibit B is a document that carries your name, Wikus Johannes Loots. Can you just tell the Committee how it happened that this document came to life? MR LOOTS Mr Chairperson, if I remember correctly Botswana was after the signing of the Umkomati manifest. The infiltration of ANC members into South Africa, escalated and on the 14th of June this led to the attack in Gaberone, and this also led to Exhibit B, and I did this on the instructions of Head Office for use in a meeting that was held in December 1988 in Botswana and Pretoria. MR VISSER That was a background document? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER What was the purpose of that document, what did you want to explain in that? MR LOOTS The Department of Foreign Affairs wanted to liaise with Botswana directly. MR VISSER Just to summarise it, if I can put it this way, this document contains a reference to attacks that were orchestrated from Botswana and attempts to curb these attacks with the help or assistance of the Botswana government. Were you assisted by Gen Steyn in this? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Gen Steyn was your Head in the Western Transvaal, at that stage? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER The document that you submitted, is it this document that I have in my hand? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And this contains far more information than is contained in Exhibit B? MR LOOTS It contains information about Natal, Eastern Cape, Free State and the Far North, concerning ANC infiltrations from Botswana into the various areas. MR VISSER Very well. Can you just tell the Committee, you have heard the evidence of Gen Steyn, Mr Loots, do you agree with his evidence? MR LOOTS Yes, I do agree with it. MR VISSER You also referred to his application in your application and you asked that it will be incorporated into yours? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER What can you remember about this incident? MR LOOTS It was so that we were approximately 20 or 25 people who came together. MR VISSER Was this at Ottoshoop? MR LOOTS Yes. And as far as I can remember, the purpose of that meeting was amongst other things to and I am referring to sections or divisions, Soweto, the Free State, Johannesburg, Pretoria Head Office, Special Forces, where we all came together with the purpose to in a sensible way, exchange ideas about various individuals, to exchange addresses, safehouses used by MK members. MR VISSER Was the case of Mr Serache pertinently discussed? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER What was your impression of the purpose or the plan of the Special Forces, concerning Mr Serache? MR LOOTS That in the light of information, that he was involved in the infiltration of weapons and that Special Forces will be tasked to attack the house, and to take the necessary steps. MR VISSER Can you remember if there was a sense of urgency concerning Mr Serache during this meeting? MR LOOTS Mr Chairperson, once again with the help of some of the information, and I was a Commander in Potchefstroom, I was in charge of the co-ordination of information concerning MK activities in Botswana, it was very clear that he played a leading role, concerning infiltrations of weaponry, etc. MR VISSER How long did this meeting take? MR LOOTS Well, it went till very late that evening. I can name an example, we received reports from Soweto where a source said that he left Clocwen to Dukwe, which is approximately 300 kilometres from the border, and within half an hour or 40 minutes, he would be back and he would report back to his handler and there, during that information, this meeting, that they must try and be careful to listen to informants or sources who do not tell the truth. MR VISSER How long did this meeting take? MR LOOTS It was up until eleven o'clock that evening, or maybe even later. MR VISSER What happened then, did you go home? MR LOOTS No, we stayed over. The next morning, we discussed in groups and waited for Gen Schutte and Kat Liebenberg. MR VISSER Did they arrive? MR LOOTS Yes, they arrived. MR VISSER What happened then? MR LOOTS As far as I can remember, we then went our ways, individual ways. The suggestion concerning Serache was then accepted by the Generals. MR VISSER You already mentioned that you understood that Special Forces would act? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER With Gen Kat Liebenberg, did you also believe that it was an authorised operation? MR LOOTS Yes, definitely. MR VISSER You also said that your participation and the people who worked underneath you, was that you had to provide information to the Special Forces? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER Who did you provide this information to? MR LOOTS Personally the people that I liaised with, was Charl Naude and then Col Joe Verster. MR VISSER From Special Forces? MR LOOTS Yes. And sometimes Joep Joubert as well as Gen Kat Liebenberg personally. MR VISSER Was anything done then because of the discussions on Mr Serache and his facility? MR LOOTS I heard Mr Chairperson, it was covered in the media and also in Botswana, over the radio, that was the normal radio in Botswana and we had to monitor it. I cannot remember it in detail, I was not part of the team that Gen Steyn is referring to, the team that left the next day to Botswana, I went back to Potchefstroom, but I did later hear with liaison with people in Zeerust that there was an explosion in Gaberone. MR VISSER When you conveyed this information to Special Forces, what did you think will happen with this information? MR LOOTS That they will definitely act to kill. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence. MR LOOTS I can may just add this Mr Chairperson, with the assistance of sources, I heard and it is confirmation of Gen Steyn that weapons were found and that Morupe was with Serache in the house when this incident occurred, and not one of them were seriously injured. MR VISSER This Morupe that you are now talking about, could it be the same person, Moadira? MR LOOTS I do not know. MR VISSER Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR KOOPEDI The same position chairperson, no questions for this witness. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Chairperson, at random, we will pick on Mr Rudi Crause to give evidence next. His evidence is to be found at page 2 - 25 of the Bundle. Chairperson, he deals with the incident on page 8.