amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-11 PRETORIA 5 MARTIN J NAUDE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54328&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200711pr.htm CHAIRPERSON What language would you prefer, Mr Naude? MR NAUDE Afrikaans, please. MARTIN J NAUDE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Naude, you are an applicant in this incident, and you also apply for amnesty, the same as for what Brig Schoon is asking for? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER You have done this before, but do you once again ask that the general background to the amnesty applications, Exhibit A must be included into your application? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER You have also received Exhibit B and you had the opportunity to go through it, does it also correlate with your experience and information that you had during this period of time as it appears in Exhibit B? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER Can you then confirm it and ask that it be incorporated into your evidence? Your application, did you go through your application and can you confirm that it is true and correct as far as your memory goes? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER What was your position in 1988 in the South African Police? MR NAUDE I was then working in C2, it is an integral part of C2, where we did research concerning acts of terror in South Africa. MR VISSER The research, what did this entail? MR NAUDE Research that we worked with was everything that - from the training of the freedom movements, all of them, the type of training that they underwent, the facilities that they used, the routes that they used to infiltrate South Africa, different workings of different ANC machineries and everything that had to do with the onslaught. MR VISSER Did you yourself handle informants or was it somebody else's task? MR NAUDE C2 was not personally involved with the handling of informants, but to a greater degree, we did recruitments. We infiltrated members of the freedom movements and we interrogated people in detention concerning the training and the facilities of the organisations outside of South Africa. MR VISSER Did you also receive security reports? MR NAUDE Yes, in the nature of the work or the group, I received these reports. MR VISSER Did you coordinate information? MR NAUDE Yes. Personally we did not generate it to such a great extent, it worked on the principle of an ant heap in which Military Intelligence and the Security Branch added it, or put it in the same basket at Trevits where we then worked through it and then tasked it to different individuals. MR VISSER Did you have a place in Trevits? MR NAUDE I was never part of, or I never played an integral role at Trevits, but I did make presentations, yes. MR VISSER Did you also work with the National Branch and provided them with information? MR NAUDE Under correction, no, I don't think so. MR VISSER Can you just explain or tell the Committee what your memory is concerning the circumstances in the light of the creation of or establishment of an arms cache in 1988. MR NAUDE During that specific day, that was in the late afternoon, I attended a briefing session at Vlakplaas, that was attended by Trevits members of the Defence Force, and at this briefing a target was identified. CHAIRPERSON What meeting was this? MR NAUDE It was a meeting, yes. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR VISSER You said at this meeting a target was identified by the Defence Force? MR NAUDE Yes, from where the last group of infiltrators allegedly will then infiltrate and it was identified over a period of time as a known ANC facility from where infiltration took place. MR VISSER Who gave this briefing? MR NAUDE I am not quite sure. The meeting was mostly the Trevits and the representatives from the Defence Force who did this presentation. MR VISSER Trevits generally speaking is reconciled with target development? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER So this was Trevits busy with what they were supposed to do, that is target development? MR NAUDE That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Was Brig Schoon present? MR NAUDE I cannot remember if the Brigadier was present at this specific presentation. MR VISSER But can you remember what happened at this meeting? MR NAUDE Well, during this meeting, or after it was concluded, but during meetings with Trevits tasks were given to, especially for the group for which I was responsible, for example if there was a place abroad that you are not quite sure of, you pertinently in following interrogation, attempt to get more information about that specific target so that that target can be developed over a longer period of time. After I attended the briefing, I left the farm and went to my office in town. MR VISSER On page 122 you also refer to the fact that you received an instruction. What was that? MR NAUDE After I arrived at the office, there was a message for me that Brig Schoon asked me to come back to the farm. MR VISSER That is Vlakplaas? MR NAUDE Yes. My colleague Jan Meyer, I asked him to accompany me to drive back to the farm. MR VISSER He is also an applicant? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER What happened there? MR NAUDE When we arrived on the farm, I met Brig Schoon and Eugene ... MR VISSER Please use the surnames. MR NAUDE I beg your pardon, I met Mr de Kock and Schoon outside. De Kock then told me, or there were weapons laying on a wall next to them, and Brig Schoon said I must take these weapons to Krugersdorp and hand it over to Coetzee and he would be able to know what to do with them. MR VISSER Very well, continue. MR NAUDE Myself and Capt Meyer picked up the weapons, we drove to the Explosives Unit where I picked up explosives. CHAIRPERSON According to instructions that you received from Schoon? MR NAUDE I cannot recall if it was on instruction from Schoon. CHAIRPERSON Why would you then go and pick up explosives? MR NAUDE If I remember correctly Mr Chairperson, it was just the weapons and then I went to the Explosives Unit where I got mine. MR VISSER But the question is why did you go there, unless somebody told you to go there, why did you go to the Explosives Unit? MR NAUDE It could be possible that Brig Schoon told me to get further items at the Explosives Unit. MR VISSER Whatever it may be that you collected, the weapons or explosives, what did you do with it? MR NAUDE We then put the material in a trunk and I took this to Krugersdorp where Col Coetzee met me at the police station. MR VISSER Can you remember how late that was? MR NAUDE I am not quite sure, but it was approximately ten or eleven that evening. MR VISSER You then handed it over to Coetzee? MR NAUDE Yes, after he met us there, we went home early the next morning, then he took us to a place, where we buried the material together. MR VISSER So you were present when this material was buried? MR NAUDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you informed at that stage when it was buried, what the plans were? MR NAUDE Mr Chairperson, I attended the briefing, but I did not know what was going to happen with the weapons, but after I spoke to Col Coetzee in Krugersdorp, I knew what was going to happen. CHAIRPERSON Who told you? MR NAUDE Col Coetzee told me about this. MR VISSER Were you also present when the weapons were "discovered"? MR NAUDE No, I was not present when the weapons were "discovered", after we buried it, we returned to Pretoria. I took a shower and caught a flight to Cape Town. MR VISSER You showered and flew to Cape Town? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER Why did you do that? MR NAUDE During the meeting it was decided that myself and Brig Schoon must represent the SA Police at the meeting because regular Trevits representatives were not at the meeting. MR VISSER What meeting was this where the Trevits members were not present? MR NAUDE It was that meeting where the transit house target was identified. MR VISSER At Vlakplaas? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER So you are saying that it was only the Defence Force and the Police and not the other members of Trevits, is that what you are saying? MR NAUDE Yes, I am not quite sure if there were members. MR VISSER You use abbreviations, can you just tell what NIA stands for? MR NAUDE The National Intelligence Service people. MR MALAN I do not think it as National Intelligence Service, I think it was just NI, National Intelligence? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER That will be a whole different name. MR MALAN I hear you talk about the SA Police and the SA Defence Force, it is the old acronyms? MR VISSER What did you do in Cape Town? MR NAUDE During the meeting that took place on the farm, we decided that we had to make a presentation from the Defence Force ranks. MR VISSER What was the purpose of this presentation? MR NAUDE I heard what was testified before and I can make no other conclusion, and I also agree that it had to be sanctioned. MR VISSER What operation is this? MR NAUDE The cross-border action on the transit house. CHAIRPERSON Why did you go to the Cape? MR NAUDE As I said Mr Chairperson, my group was to a great extent responsible for the generating of information. So if there were any doubt about that facility, I had the capacity to get the record of that facility and say that so many freedom fighters infiltrated the country and the most recent information we got yesterday, that the next group would possibly infiltrate South Africa, and the time. CHAIRPERSON Is that all that you would have said if you were asked? MR NAUDE If I was asked in the Cape? CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NAUDE I would have been able to give them the historical use of the facility as well as the current facility. I wouldn't say two hours ago, but the last interrogation that we had. CHAIRPERSON But that would have been the truth concerning the information that you had? MR NAUDE Yes, that is the truth. CHAIRPERSON And you accepted it as the truth? MR NAUDE Yes, I did, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR VISSER What happened, well, can you remember where in Cape Town you were? You heard what Brig Schoon said, what do you say? MR NAUDE Well Mr Chairperson, I also heard the questions that the Committee asked the Brigadier about the building. If you are in the narrow road behind the parliament, before you go into the parking lot, it is on your immediate right. MR VISSER Do you know what meeting it was that took place there? MR NAUDE I have no idea, Chairperson. MR VISSER If you had to speculate, what would you say? MR NAUDE If I had to speculate, I would say that somebody very high up had to sanction this operation. MR VISSER Well, we know that the weapons were found at this arms cache? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER What is your recollection, where were you when this happened? MR NAUDE That is correct, this weapon or ammunition cache was found I think in the early morning while we were on our way to the Cape, that is when the news broke that they found this ammunition cache outside Krugersdorp. MR VISSER Just before the meeting, so that this can also be discussed at the meeting? MR NAUDE I do not know if it was before or after, but yes, it happened at the same time. MR VISSER As far as your knowledge goes, authorisation was then given for this attack in Botswana? MR NAUDE That is correct yes. If I can recall correctly, the operation took place the next morning. MR VISSER In your application you say just like Mr de Kock, that this was the 28th of March? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR VISSER Are you quite sure of that date? MR NAUDE I am not sure, but because I was involved from A - Z I can put it in order of what I know, I cannot say that is definitely this date or that date. CHAIRPERSON I understand that. Maybe they will ask you what time it was, too. MR VISSER Mr Naude maybe you can just assist us then, if we accept that the attack took place on the 28th, it would then have meant that that evening of the 27th of March, you left for the Cape in this military plane? MR MALAN No Mr Visser, I think he said he left in the morning, the early morning. MR VISSER In relation with the 28th, if that is the correct date, when was the meeting at Vlakplaas, would it have been the 27th? MR NAUDE I am going to try and make it easier for myself, let us say the meeting took place this afternoon, then we went that evening to prepare the arms cache, the next morning we went for the briefing and the next morning the air operation took place. MR VISSER So the meeting was probably on the 26th? MR NAUDE Yes, most probably. MR VISSER And what did you do, did you do it out of the conviction that it fell within your task as a policeman, that you were doing your work as a policeman? MR NAUDE Definitely yes. As a member of the Security Branch, yes, I do not know about a policeman at that time. MR VISSER Do you also confirm your political motivation as you put it out in your application? MR NAUDE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER As far as you know, were there any person that was killed or injured in this attack that followed afterwards? MR NAUDE No, not as far as I know. MR VISSER Can you remember anything of that attack or how it happened? MR NAUDE As far as my knowledge goes, it was an operation that was launched with choppers. MR VISSER With helicopters? MR NAUDE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Were there any members of the Security Branch that accompanied them to Botswana? MR NAUDE No. MR VISSER Was it purely Special Forces of the Defence Force? MR NAUDE Yes. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR HUGO Mr Chairman, I see it is about five to one and I want to take instructions just on two or three aspects, would it be possible for us to take the short adjournment now? CHAIRPERSON We will take the adjournment, and start at quarter to two. MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MARTIN J. NAUDE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Naude, you say that from time to time, you had session on Trevits' meetings, is that correct? You would agree that Mr de Kock in his capacity as Commander of Vlakplaas, never had session at the Trevits meetings? MR NAUDE That is correct Chairperson. MR HUGO And I will accept that you would agree with me, that according to your perception, he was applied as an operative in the broader sense of the word? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR HUGO Just to clarify some unclarity in my mind, it would appear that the activities that took place at Vlakplaas, or the meeting that took place at Vlakplaas was on the 26th of March, it wasn't a brief meeting that was concluded swiftly, it was a consistent meeting which took place over quite a long period on that day? MR NAUDE Yes, it may be so, because as I have attempted to explain, there was a continuous development of targets and if there were any gaps or problems, it had to be approached from an overall perspective, there was continuous analysis of the developments of certain aspects. MR HUGO And with regard to these discussions, Mr de Kock did not have session or participation, it was only at a later stage that he was given instructions by Brig Schoon? MR NAUDE That is correct. MR HUGO Then I would like to ask you the following, did you have any perception that Foreign Affairs specifically was obstructive with regard to the proposed cross-border operations which were to be launched? MR NAUDE If I have to give you an honest answer, I would have to say that I do not know, because I was never exposed on that level, and I am not precisely clear regarding Foreign Affairs' position on cross-border operations and the like. MR HUGO So you were not present during a discussion? Mr de Kock will testify that Mr Joubert specifically told him that Foreign Affairs were obstructive regarding the proposed cross-border operations? MR NAUDE I would not be able to comment on that, I was not present. MR HUGO Very well. And then I would like to ask you the following, your general perception regarding the prevention or the observation of orders which were given by the command structure, how did you view it at that point? MR NAUDE Along with my amnesty application, I included a description of Unit C's task and function and our orders which were issued to us, had to be observed. MR HUGO You would not have considered disobeying these orders? MR NAUDE Not. MR HUGO And you would agree with me that firstly you thought it was in the best interest of the country, and secondly that it would have been detrimental to your career if you had considered disobeying these orders? MR NAUDE Well, whether or not it would have been detrimental to my career, is difficult to say, what I can agree with what you put to me. MR HUGO By the way, what was your rank during the commission of this operation? MR NAUDE I was a Major. MR HUGO Mr de Kock was also a Major? MR NAUDE Yes, I am speaking under correction, but I do think so. MR HUGO Thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO ADV STEENKAMP No questions Mr Chairman, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON As I have understood your evidence, although you went to Cape Town, were you not aware of a plan to mislead the government in order to obtain approval for the attack in Botswana, you were not aware of any such plan? MR NAUDE No Chairperson, but with your permission, because I have heard the evidence given by the Brigadier, I would like to comment on that. CHAIRPERSON Go ahead. MR NAUDE The facts regarding the cross-border operation were clinically correct, the facility had been used over a long period of time. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that. MR NAUDE When I came to Krugersdorp and went to Col Coetzee and we went to bury the arms, I realised for the first time that we were actually busy with a STRATKOM action so to speak, and a STRATKOM action, according to our training, was the manipulation of facts in order to create a certain situation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that, but you did not know of a plan to mislead the government. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused. MR NAUDE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the next witness is Mr Meyer. His application is to be found in the Bundle, at page 106 through to 117 and his application appears at page 108.