amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-11 PRETORIA 5 J C MEYER AM4152/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54329&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200711pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Meyer, do you prefer to speak Afrikaans? J C MEYER (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Meyer, you are also an applicant and do you also request the same amnesty as the previous witnesses, is that correct? MR MEYER Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, you may proceed directly to his share in the incident. MR VISSER Would you accept Chairperson, that all the persons for whom I am appearing, incorporates Exhibit A and B in their applications, then we could proceed swiftly. Mr Meyer, I understand that you were ill, that indeed on the 25th of April last year, after a rugby match, you suffered a cardiac arrest, is that correct? MR MEYER Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And were you medically treated for that? MR MEYER Yes, I was. MR VISSER And did you receive an affidavit from Dr Josef Jacobs in which it is summarised that you were left with a memory problem and that the chances are that this memory problem might last for a number of months to come or indefinitely? MR MEYER Yes, he mentioned to me that this could be so and he gave me that letter. I don't know whether it is actually an affidavit as such. No, it is not an affidavit. MR VISSER No, this is simply an authentic copy of a letter. I request leave to submit this, for what it is worth and can we mark it as Exhibit C. We do not have copies available, but I have already read out on the record what appears on the document, so we will table it now. Mr Meyer, what can you recall regarding the events? I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON Is the certificate for the client? MR VISSER I do apologise. Mr Meyer, what can you recall of the events pertaining to this arms cache? MR MEYER Chairperson, it was during March 1988 when I was at the office when my Commander, Mr Naude, came to me and told me to accompany him. MR VISSER Just tell us what was your rank at that stage? MR MEYER I was a Lieutenant or a Captain, I am not entirely certain. MR VISSER By the way, while we are on the question of ranks, in your amnesty application you state or it is stated on page 107 of the Bundle, that you joined the Police in 1996 and you have stated that that is incorrect, it should be 1969. In which division were you, were you with Mr Naude? MR MEYER Yes, I was with him in Unit C2, of which he was the Commander. MR VISSER He came to you and requested you to accompany him? MR MEYER Yes, I don't know what the circumstances were at the office that day, but I did accompany him. MR VISSER And then what happened as you can recall? MR MEYER I recall that we went to Vlakplaas, where we obtained the arms. It was quite late that afternoon and after we had received the arms, we went through to Krugersdorp where we found the then Captain Coetzee. We went to bury the arms. MR VISSER Were you present when the arms were buried? MR MEYER That is correct. MR VISSER Did you have anything further to do with the matter subsequently? MR MEYER No, after we had buried the weapons, we returned and the following day I proceeded with my usual duties. MR VISSER Did you know the purpose of the burial of these arms? MR MEYER I wasn't entirely certain of the purpose, but my inference was that there must be something as what has already been mentioned, which could take place. MR VISSER In other words it served as a motivation for some form of action? MR MEYER Yes. MR VISSER But nobody informed you pertinently? MR MEYER No. MR VISSER But subsequently you discovered that that was the case? MR MEYER Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR HUGO I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP ADV SIGODI Who discovered the arms? MR MEYER Who discovered the arms? Chairperson, I am not entirely certain. I cannot recall who precisely discovered the arms the following day. CHAIRPERSON Were you not present? MR MEYER No, I was not present. ADV SIGODI But do you know who was told where you had put the arms? MR MEYER No, I cannot recall how it came to be and I wasn't there, so I wouldn't know how it occurred. ADV SIGODI Who chose the spot where the arms would be buried? MR MEYER If I recall correctly, it was Capt Coetzee at that stage. ADV SIGODI Were there landmarks by which you could identify where these arms were buried, for somebody to discover them? MR MEYER Chairperson, I don't believe there were any actual landmarks as such, but it was very spacious in terms of bushes. ADV SIGODI Okay, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, in connection with which charges would this application be made? MR VISSER The illegal possession of arms, the transportation of arms. He himself states that nobody informed him before the time, but that he subsequently knew what the purpose of this exercise was, which places him in the same category, although his knowledge came after the fact or after the event. It is very much similar, there is nothing that really distinguishes his actions with the exception of the time frame. CHAIRPERSON When you removed the arms from wherever and took them to Krugersdorp, did you know that what you were doing, was illegal or did you act according to instructions? MR MEYER Among others Chairperson, I was also acting under instructions, but I would not be able to say now that I was completely certain that it wasn't illegal. CHAIRPERSON What did you do to transport the arms? Why did you think they were doing this? MR MEYER I must have thought that it was for a reason. CHAIRPERSON An illegal reason or a legal reason? MR MEYER I would not say completely illegal reason. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the next witness is Mr Coetzee, whose application is at page 67 to 79. The incident is dealt with at page 76.