amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-11 PRETORIA 5 J C COETZEE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54330&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200711pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, do you prefer to speak Afrikaans? MR COETZEE Please Chairperson. J C COETZEE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, you are also an applicant in this incident. What was your rank in 1988 and where were you stationed at that time? MR COETZEE I was a Major and I was stationed at the Security Branch, Krugersdorp. MR VISSER Who was your Commander? MR COETZEE Gen le Roux. MR VISSER Le Roux? MR COETZEE Yes, le Roux. MR VISSER Were you second in command or what was the position? MR COETZEE I cannot recall precisely. MR VISSER Very well. What can you recall regarding this incident? MR COETZEE What I can recall is that on a certain day I was telephonically contacted by Brig Schoon, and told to come and see him in his office in Pretoria. If I recall correctly, it was more or less at midday. MR VISSER You may continue. MR COETZEE Once I had arrived at Brig Schoon's office, he informed me that the South African Defence Force were looking for a reason to launch an operation against an ANC facility in Botswana. He requested me to return to Krugersdorp and to find a suitable place where I would be able to create an arms cache or fabricate an arms cache whatever the term may be, and that later during the course of the day or the night, arms would be supplied to me, which I would then have to conceal in that case. MR VISSER Just a minute, before you proceed. What had to happen with the arms cache, once you had buried the arms? MR COETZEE This arms cache would once again have to be discovered that night, I had to fabricate an excuse to find the arms cache and then the usual procedure which would be followed with such a discovery, had to be followed. That would be the Commanders of the various police departments and all other relevant bodies or structures had to be informed. MR VISSER Very well. What did you do then? MR COETZEE I returned to Krugersdorp and I found a suitable place in a mine heap, where the ground wasn't as hard and I telephonically contacted Brig Schoon and told him that everything was ready, that he could send the arms through that we agreed. That evening, at approximately eleven o'clock or twelve o'clock, I were to meet members from Head Office at the Krugersdorp police station and that they would have the arms. MR VISSER Did you inform your Commander? MR COETZEE Yes. My Commander had been out previously during the day, but once he returned, I told him the whole story and informed him that at some or other point during the night, I would be disrupting his night's rest and that we would have to do the necessary so that the Public Relations department of the Police and all other persons and the press and the media would be alerted. MR VISSER You said you found a place where the ground wasn't as hard, did you dig a hole there or had you not yet done so? MR COETZEE Chairperson, as far as I can recall, we dug a hole, but at that stage I didn't know the quantity of arms which would be given to me. MR VISSER Very well. Were any members of the Security Branch with you? MR COETZEE Yes, there were persons with me. MR VISSER Can you recall who they were? MR COETZEE I really cannot recall who they were. Since then I have made enquiries from certain members and they have said that it wasn't any of them. I know that there was at least one other member with me. CHAIRPERSON When was this, when you went to dig the hole? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You returned and reported back to Brig Schoon and then, on that evening, did anything further take place? MR COETZEE Yes, later that night, at the agreed time, there were a number of men who arrived at the police station at Krugersdorp. They arrived in two vehicles, I think one was a bakkie and the other was a normal motor vehicle. MR VISSER Yes? CHAIRPERSON Which men? MR COETZEE There were quite a number of members from the Demolitions Unit in Pretoria and from C. CHAIRPERSON Approximately how many? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I really cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Two, 10, 20? MR COETZEE I would say about three or four. MR VISSER Can you recall the names of some of them? MR COETZEE I can recall Mr Naude. I am not certain whether Josh Hammon from the Demolitions Division was there, or whether it was du Preez. I really cannot recall. MR VISSER Very well. Mr Meyer stated that he was also present. Can you recall him? MR COETZEE I cannot recall him, and he told me today that he had been present there. MR VISSER Very well. What did you do then? MR COETZEE We went to the place at the mine heap and took out the arms from the car and buried it in the place, the quantity was so big that we had to widen the hole. I had to go and fetch spades from my house. We buried the items and the members who came subsequently from Pretoria, returned. MR VISSER Did they assist with the digging of the hole? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And then they left? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER What did you do then? MR COETZEE I waited for a few hours, until about three or four o'clock that morning, then I telephoned Gen le Roux as had been agreed and informed him telephonically of the arms cache which had been found, due to information that we had obtained. He had to deal with the rest and notify everybody. CHAIRPERSON He must have been expecting the call? MR COETZEE Yes, he was expecting it. CHAIRPERSON Why did you phone him? He would have known what was going to happen? MR COETZEE Chairperson, that was part of the agreement, that this thing had to appear to be genuine. You couldn't concoct something and then it wouldn't operate properly. Under normal circumstances it would have worked like that, if I had found something like that at night, I would have telephoned him, that is why I phoned him. CHAIRPERSON But those were circumstances during which he wouldn't have known about it before the time? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON But in this case he knew about it prior to the time, why did you phone him? MR COETZEE To make it all appear genuine. CHAIRPERSON For who? MR COETZEE I don't know if there were any persons who were tapping telephone lines, or anything like that. CHAIRPERSON Did you also do so? MR COETZEE Yes, of course we did. Section 118 of the Postal Act authorised us to do so. CHAIRPERSON But I wouldn't have thought that you people in the Security Police would have tapped each other's phones? MR COETZEE One could never say that, Chairperson. MR VISSER And were members of the press then present at the scene the following morning? MR COETZEE Yes, the following morning Chris Olckers and his team arrived there and there were many reporters. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr le Roux ensure that they were called in? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER You were busy telling us that Chris Olckers and his team were there. Was this broadcast on television? MR COETZEE Yes, it was. MR VISSER And regarding you, there was extensive media coverage? MR COETZEE Yes. We took everything out and packed all the items on blankets. They took photographs and everything looked lovely. The plan had worked. MR VISSER And furthermore, we know that apparently authorisation had to be extended because an attack took place? MR COETZEE Yes, I am not entirely certain about the course of time, but on that very same day or the following morning, I heard over the news that there had been an attack in Botswana on an ANC facility. MR VISSER You state on page 76 of your application, the final paragraph you refer to this attack and you say that it was a residence and that a number of persons were killed in the process? What was your information regarding this, because thus far we have no information about any fatalities. Perhaps you have information that could shed some light on this? MR COETZEE The only explanation that I can give Chairperson, is that as a member of the Security Force, I was involved in quite a number of things, I may have confused it with other attacks in Botswana. MR VISSER Perhaps you are correct? MR COETZEE Yes, I may be correct, that is how I recall it. MR VISSER Very well. Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON You say that this is how you recall it, but how would you have discovered this, because you weren't there in Botswana? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, I heard on the news that there was an attack CHAIRPERSON And that people had been killed? MR COETZEE I cannot say that it was said that people were killed. CHAIRPERSON Let us assume that you say that this is how you recall the story, that persons were killed. Where would you have obtained that information or how would you have obtained such information? MR COETZEE As I have said, I may be confusing this incident with another incident, either prior or subsequent to this incident in which I was involved. CHAIRPERSON You are not certain that persons were actually killed during this attack? MR COETZEE I am not certain, I was not there. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR HUGO I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO ADV STEENKAMP No questions, Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Chairperson, the last witness from my side, is Gen Johan le Roux. His application is at page 80 to 92. He deals with the application at page 88. He is ready to take the oath and he prefers to address you in Afrikaans.