amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-11 PRETORIA 5 J W LOOTS 4149/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54333&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200711pr.htm J W LOOTS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may be seated. Ms Makhubele, are you appearing on behalf of the families? MS MAKHUBELE Chairperson, I am appearing on behalf of Ms Busang, who is the mother of MK Naledi. CHAIRPERSON I didn't get that. Can you just repeat that please? MS MAKHUBELE I am appearing on behalf of Ms Busang, who is the mother of MK Naledi, the deceased. CHAIRPERSON Ms Makhubele, is the application being opposed? MS MAKHUBELE No Mr Chairperson, the family does not oppose the application, they just want the full disclosure. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser? EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, the person known to us as MK Naledi, appears to be a person by the name of Patrick Sandile Mvundla or Sandile Patrick Mvundla. That information appears from page 66 of Bundle, there are two bundles here, perhaps I should refer to them as Bundle 1 and Bundle 2. I now don't find a page 66, my note says page 66. Oh, I see, it is page 64 which is a certificate - yes, I will refer to that in a moment, but at page 64 of the second Bundle, he is referred to as Patrick Sandile Mvundla and at page 66 of the record, that is a statement made by Ms Busang, the mother of Sandile before the Human Rights Violations Committee, it is stated right at the top of the page as Sandile Patrick Mvundla, but there should be no difficulty with the identification. Chairperson, may I draw the attention of you and your Committee to the ANC presentations, to the TRC, where some more information appears. First of all, in the August 1996 presentation at page 93, there is a reference to him under 22 - Vundla, Patrick S, so it is Patrick S. Vundla, it is not spelt the same as we've got it, but it gives the date as the 28th of March 1988, under the heading "Assassination, Raids and Bombs in Botswana", so that is where we got the date of the 28th of March from. Chairperson, as to his status, reference can be had to the may 1997 presentation of the, written presentation of the ANC, where at page 49 under "Botswana RPMC, 1983 - 1985", Mr Naledi, together with two other persons, the one called Dan and the other I cannot pronounce, Mtintso, being persons who led the military machinery in Botswana and then as far as the relevant period of time is concerned, after 1986, he is referred to as a military representative, Mr Naledi. There are other references as well, except that they say no more than what I have already told you. Mr Loots, in 1988, where were you? MR LOOTS I was the Commander of the Western Transvaal Security Branch. MR VISSER Were you familiar with Mr Naledi? MR LOOTS Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Since what point in time had you become accustomed with his existence and his activities? MR LOOTS It was in 1985, 1986 approximately. MR VISSER So that would be approximately three years before the time of his death? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Is it also correct that among others, you attended a meeting between Foreign Affairs of the Republic of South Africa and the Minister of Foreign Affairs from Botswana at a certain stage? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. The meeting took place on the 25th of February 1986. MR VISSER And was Mr Naledi discussed as a problem case for the South African government? MR LOOTS His name was given by me to the Botswana delegation. MR VISSER And the Department of Foreign Affairs issued a warning to Botswana? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER What was said? MR LOOTS A call was made to Botswana to use their capacity to limit ANC activities from Botswana to the RSA as much as possible. MR VISSER And if this was not done? MR LOOTS Then the RSA would regard any ANC activities from Botswana to the RSA as an act of aggression. MR VISSER Very well. Coming to the facts, we are aware that all indications show that on the 28th of March 1988, Mr Naledi along with two other persons died in Gaberone in Botswana as a result of an attack. Did you participate in that attack? MR LOOTS No Chairperson, I did not participate physically in the attack. MR VISSER Who executed the attack? MR LOOTS Col Joe Verster from Special Forces. I informed him personally. MR VISSER What was the events that preceded this attack? MR LOOTS Four armed MK members on approximately the 25th of March 1988, infiltrated the RSA from Botswana. Three of these persons were killed by the South African Defence Force. It has now come to my attention that there are also affidavits which were made by those particular members of the Defence Force, who were involved in the shooting incident with the MK members. MR VISSER That is Bundle 2, page 19. Please continue. MR LOOTS One of the four was arrested, one Vuyo. MR VISSER V-u-y-o? What happened to him? MR LOOTS Brig Schoon issued an instruction for him to be handed over to me at Western Transvaal. MR VISSER Why was that? MR LOOTS As it had already been explained in the past, Western Transvaal was responsible for coordination with regard to ANC targets and safehouses and so forth in Botswana. Therefore we did the necessary interrogation and he also pointed out the safehouse where Naledi, who was his superior, was living. MR VISSER Did he say that he acted under the command of Naledi, when he infiltrated? MR LOOTS Without any doubt. MR VISSER We are aware that there is an Exhibit B, that is a document that you have compiled yourself and it has been incorporated in the Naledi Bundle. On typed page 18 - 19 of Exhibit B, you also made mention of Mr Naledi's activities, is that correct? And you state on page 19, under paragraph 18 ... MR LOOTS I do not have the correct document. MR VISSER Paragraph 18, just below the half line of the page? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER There you refer to this particular incident? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER "... the fourth terrorist revealed that they infiltrated on the instructions of Patrick S. Mvundla, MK Naledi, Overall MK Commander" is that correct? MR LOOTS That is correct, yes. MR VISSER Did you personally participate in the interrogation of Vuyo? MR LOOTS Yes, and the deceased Col Weerman were involved in the interrogation. MR VISSER What did you do with the information that you obtained from Mr Vuyo? MR LOOTS Due to its urgency, it was directly reported to Mr Joe Verster. MR VISSER Was this part of the general instruction which was issued to you, the instruction that you had to share information or intelligence with other Security institutions? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Where was this information conveyed to Joe Verster? MR LOOTS On a safe farm near Nietverdiendt, which was used by the Zeerust Branch. MR VISSER That is in the Western Transvaal? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER And what information did you convey to him? MR LOOTS On the contrary Chairperson, they themselves had also spoken to Vuyo and in the light of certain air photos of Gaberone, the safehouse where Naledi was living, was identified. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't your question pertaining to the contribution that the witness himself made? MR VISSER Yes, that is actually the question. Any information that you withdrew from Vuyo, which was conveyed to Joe Verster, can you recall what this information involved? MR VISSER Briefly it indicated that three of the four had infiltrated under the command of Naledi and that Vuyo, who had been arrested, had indicated the safehouse from which they had infiltrated. In other words the information regarding where Mr Naledi was in Botswana, emanated from your interrogation? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER What was your impression ... CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon, so actually you told Verster where they could find this person? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And he was the target? MR LOOTS Naledi was the target. CHAIRPERSON What about his cohorts? MR LOOTS According to Vuyo, they were a group of four who had infiltrated and MK members would use this particular house which had been identified from time to time, as a safe overnight place. But he couldn't tell us at that stage who else would be there, apart from Naledi. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MR LOOTS The facility, the address and the fact that Naledi was living there. MR VISSER What was your impression when Verster and his men were there with you in the Western Transvaal during these discussions, what was their intention? MR LOOTS Naledi was an absolute target, and it was their objective in the light of existing rules and instructions, that they would attack the target in a covert manner. MR VISSER In the light thereof, did you convey the information to Mr Verster, the information that you had just mentioned? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER And you knew that this information would be partially applied in order to conduct an operation to eliminate Mr Naledi? MR LOOTS On the contrary, Vuyo was handed over to Mr Verster, and he went with the team to Botswana where the house was identified. MR VISSER But this is not actually the question, the question is did you know that the information that you had disclosed to Mr Verster, would be applied for the purposes of an operation that was aimed at eliminating Mr Naledi? MR LOOTS Definitely. MR VISSER As far as you know, did an attack take place? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER And it was executed by Special Forces? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER Did you hear subsequently whether or not anybody had been injured during the attack or whether any property had been damaged? MR LOOTS Mr Verster shared on Nietverdiendt safehouse with us that night and the attack was executed in the early morning hours, after one o'clock, it was reported to Mr Verster via radio and approximately one hour later, they made a further report to him that they had driven into a tree stump with their vehicle, and that they had to travel back to the RSA by foot from that point onwards. MR VISSER What did they report regarding the results of their attack? MR LOOTS That a man or two men and one woman had been killed in the house. MR VISSER Let me just refresh your memory, on page 7 of the Bundle, "as far as I can recall Naledi and an unknown man (which would make it two men), and a woman"? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER That would make it two men and a woman. I would just like to establish that. Very well. They were killed in the operation? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER However we know from what Ms Busang has told the TRC, that she went to Botswana for Naledi's funeral and according to her, Naledi and three women were actually killed? MR LOOTS I had sight of that document. MR VISSER Are you in any position to dispute the correctness thereof? MR LOOTS No. MR VISSER Would you accept that? MR LOOTS Yes. MR VISSER The target of Special Forces, would it be only to kill Mr Naledi or would it also have been to destroy the facility and everybody inside it? MR LOOTS I would say the facility and all occupants. CHAIRPERSON Was the place destroyed? MR LOOTS No. CHAIRPERSON Do you know? MR LOOTS I am not certain, but I don't believe that it was completely obliterated or flattened as such. MR VISSER But it was the target? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, just allow me a moment, I believe I have referred you to all the relevant parts of the evidence. Yes, that is the evidence, thank you. Perhaps for the benefit of Ms Busang, Mr Chairman, we just wish to say that I hope she understands that Mr Loots was not one of the operators who went into Gaberone and that Mr Loots cannot tell today who those specific persons were that went and executed the operation, but it was on orders of Col Joe Verster, and that is the closest that we can bring it. Perhaps I should ask Brig Loots just to explain one further thing. Were you present when the people entered Botswana, did you see who they were? MR LOOTS I do not know the team members. MR VISSER You don't know them? MR LOOTS That is correct. MR VISSER Therefore you cannot assist the family with the names of persons? MR LOOTS With the exception of Col Joe Verster, but regarding the operatives, they are unknown to me. MR VISSER Thank you Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Chairperson. Ms Busang understands that Mr Loots is not the one who personally carried this, but the attack, there is just one issue I wish to clarify here. Mr Loots on page 6 of the Bundle, there is talk of, the first Bundle, this MK Vuyo, having been captured in the "Verre Noord", that is Pietersburg, but then when we go further, on page 31 of the, I think it is the same Bundle and also the statements by the police officers who captured him, it would appear he was arrested in Derdepoort, which is in the Thabazimbi/Rustenburg area? MR LOOTS Yes. MS MAKHUBELE Is this one and the same person, this Vuyo? MR LOOTS Vuyo was arrested, they infiltrated near Derdepoort, and he was arrested there, that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Is it one and the same person as the one referred to on page 6? MR LOOTS Vuyo? MS MAKHUBELE Yes, MK Vuyo? MR LOOTS Vuyo is the person who was not killed during the infiltration. It has to be the same person. I do not know of any other Vuyo. MS MAKHUBELE Do you know if this MK Vuyo is still alive? MR LOOTS Chairperson, he returned with the team from Botswana, what happened to him subsequently I would not be able to tell you out of my own recollection, I don't know where he is. MS MAKHUBELE I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE ADV STEENKAMP No further questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Chairperson, perhaps I should just clarify something, with your leave. Derdepoort/Thabazimbi, at that stage, which division of the Security Branch did this fall under? MR LOOTS Far Northern Transvaal. MR VISSER Is that why you refer to Pietersburg Far North? MR LOOTS Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER I have no further witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Any witnesses? MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Chairperson, Ms Busang has prepared a statement which I can just read. CHAIRPERSON Is she comfortable with you reading it? MS MAKHUBELE That is what we agreed on. MS MAKHUBELE READS A STATEMENT BY MS BUSANG INTO THE RECORD MS MAKHUBELE The statement starts here "... My son's death not only deflated me emotionally, it was also a shattering blow to both family and friends. But I came to realise that nothing can rejuvenate my son back to life, not even Johannes Loots' amnesty. I am now a pensioner, suffering from high blood pressure and the grant that I receive, is my only lifejacket. I am at the bottom of the food chain, even sugar has become a luxury. I want to know why my son was so mercilessly killed, what was that that he said or did that he had to pay his life for it? I will accept the applicant's amnesty on the condition that he makes a full disclosure of his actions, and leaves nothing out. Mabel Busang." CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is that all? MS MAKHUBELE That is all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, is there any witnesses that you want to call? ADV STEENKAMP No further witnesses Mr Chairman, the family is fully represented. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, are you going to present any submissions? MR VISSER Chairperson, if you wish me to, I will of course argue. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct) Ms Makhubele, have you got any submissions to make? MS MAKHUBELE No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP No, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, what is your client asking for, what amnesty? MR VISSER IN ARGUMENT Well Chairperson, clearly here the target was Mr Naledi, so Mr Loots' conduct will be tantamount to being an accomplice, being an accessory before the fact, being part of conspiracy to commit murder, and as well as destruction of property. He told you that he thought that the facility itself was also a target. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, isn't he in a different position, isn't he guilty of murder? He participated in a decision and pointed out in terms of his information, where the deceased could be found. MR VISSER Yes, technically one could possibly argue that when Special Forces arrived there, they had already taken the decision to eliminate this person, that is why I thought perhaps an accomplice. CHAIRPERSON He was a contributor and facilitated the actual... MR VISSER Yes, Chairperson, you are probably correct. It would then be murder, alternatively culpable homicide. We are not given any information as to whether there may have been people who might have been injured, but that would be covered under murder and the alternative competent verdicts. CHAIRPERSON Well, now, what happens to those other two? Is he making application for the other two or not? MR VISSER The other three, yes, obviously they are involved. We don't know who they were, but Mr Loots' evidence was that the facility and everybody who was in it was the target. So clearly ... CHAIRPERSON And the facility, we don't know whether it was damaged or not? MR VISSER We don't know Chairperson, unfortunately I am sitting only with one applicant, and nobody else to attempt to obtain information from. There is nothing on record to show that there was, but clearly there was a conspiracy to cause damage to property Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Which was fruitful, which was carried out and eventuated? MR VISSER I haven't got evidence. CHAIRPERSON I am talking about the murders? MR VISSER Oh, the murders were carried out, yes. CHAIRPERSON We don't exactly know how it was done? MR VISSER No. CHAIRPERSON There was a conspiracy to commit malicious injury to property? MR VISSER That is what I would submit to you, yes, Mr Chairman. My Attorney has just found one piece of evidence in Ms Busang's evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee which indicates that there was a bomb that exploded in Botswana, but one doesn't know whether it is a loose reference to a bomb, or whether it was actually a bomb, so it doesn't really take the matter any further. CHAIRPERSON Precisely, yes. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So you are comfortable with three counts of murder and conspiracy to commit ... MR VISSER Well, four counts of murder. It is Mr Naledi and three women. There were four in all that were killed in that house. That is according to Ms Busang's evidence, she was there and she actually gave evidence to say that they were all buried in a communal grave, all four of them. She made it very clear that there were four people that was killed. CHAIRPERSON Well, the other three may not have been actual targets, they were caught in the crossfire? MR VISSER Either that or they were targets, we don't know. But it matters not to your decisions. CHAIRPERSON On this evidence, we don't know whether the other three were targets, but they were at the very least caught in the crossfire of a political act. MR VISSER Either that, yes Chairperson, or they were in a house at the wrong time, at the wrong place. It matters not, the one way or the other. MR MALAN Excuse me Chair, Mr Visser, I think your Attorney is correct and he probably referred you to page 69 where Ms Busang gave evidence that the people were killed because the house was being bombed, with three girls and her son. There must have been damage to the property? MR VISSER One must accept that, yes Chairperson. As I submitted before, in the previous application, even if one assumes that no explosives were used, but the mere fact that one shoots with automatic fire as is usually done, there will be damage to property, they shoot the door down and they break the door down, etc. It is always part and parcel of such an operation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we will reserve judgement on this. Is that the roll for the day Mr Steenkamp? ADV STEENKAMP Unfortunately Mr Chairman, the other matter was roughly scheduled also for today, I have been informed about half an hour ago by Mr Koopedi telephonically, that he is not in a position to proceed today, Mr Chairman. At the earliest, he will be ready by tomorrow morning. That is the undertaking he gave already. That is the best I can do, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I frankly don't know how people are going to do a proper job, when they are appearing for certain people, if they are going to consult on the morning. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS