amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-12 PRETORIA 6 P R CRAUSE AM4125/96 MNISI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54335&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200712pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Steenkamp, which one are we starting with today? ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, as agreed yesterday it will be the Mnisi matter. The applicants are Mr Steyn, Crause, du Preez Smit and Crause again. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, do you appear for all the applicants? MR VISSER I do indeed, Chairperson. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, I was initially informed, well I'm still informed that Mr Brian Koopedi was appointed as the legal representative for Mr Mnisi. I spoke to Mr Koopedi yesterday and informed him that the matter will start this morning at nine and he informed me that he will be ready by this morning at nine. I phoned him at five to nine and he informed me that he's not going to appear here on instructions of Mr Mnisi. He has already consulted with Mr Mnisi and the instructions are that Mr Mnisi is not going to attend the hearing, he doesn't wish so. He's not opposing the application and for that reason he's not appearing himself at all. I've indicated to Mr Koopedi that it will be necessary to submit a letter in this regard to you. As soon as that letter is finished, Mr Chairman, I will submit it to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I call the first witness, Mr Crause. There are two brothers and this one is P R Crause, whose application you'll find at page 13 to 20, and we will specifically refer to where he deals with the incident, at page 15 of the bundle. He is available, is ready to take the oath and he wishes to address you in Afrikaans. P R CRAUSE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Crause, do you confirm Exhibits A and B and do you request that they be incorporated with your evidence, and do you also confirm the content of your amnesty application as it appears before the Amnesty Committee, subject to the evidence that you will deliver today? MR P R CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may I refer you to Exhibit B, and I will refer to the - well it doesn't matter to which one of the page numberings I will refer you to, if it's more convenient I should perhaps refer you to the typed pages because the other page numbers are the Naledi bundle page numbers, but it doesn't matter, whichever is convenient to you. CHAIRPERSON Just tell me what you're talking about. MR VISSER At page 3 there's a reference to Sello Mnisi ... CHAIRPERSON A reference to? MR VISSER Sello, S-e-l-l-o Mnisi. We wish to make it clear, Chairperson, that that is not the victim in this particular case, that is a cousin - or it's not a brother, but it's a family relation of Mr Mnisi. At page 5 of Exhibit B you'll find a reference to Mr Johannes Mnisi, from which it will appear that his MK name was Victor. That's in paragraph 5, page 5. CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, Mr Visser, there seems to be a bit of confusion as to the spelling of the name of the deceased, are you able to give us the proper spelling? MR VISSER Yes. First of all Chairperson, he's not deceased, he's very much alive, but it's - yes, the victim, but it's M-n-i-s-i. To be distinguished from Mr Msibi, who is an entirely different person, M-s-i-b-i. He was a person who was an operative in Swaziland and not in Botswana. He's not the victim. But there has been a lot of confusion between the two. Chairperson, I just want to point out the page numbers for your own reference in Exhibit B, where he is mentioned. 5, as I stated and then page 6 of Exhibit B and then the last reference is page 9 - I'm sorry, again there's a confusion here because the one at page 9 is not the victim, it is Sello. I just wanted to make that clear, so that you don't become confused. Mr Crause, could we firstly discuss the date of these events, because in your application you stated that the date was unknown to you. Were you capable of determining a date for when this incident occurred? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR P R CRAUSE ...(no audible reply) MR VISSER INTERPRETER I could not hear the speaker properly, his voice was very feint. MR VISSER Could you repeat what you said, so that it can come through. MR P R CRAUSE It had to have been July/August ...(intervention) INTERPRETER The speaker's voice is still very feint, the Interpreter is afraid that she might not be able to hear him properly. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF - PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES MR VISSER If we may then proceed, Chairperson. Perhaps you should just repeat for the record. Were you capable of determining the date for when these incidents took place? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, Chairperson, it had to have been approximately July or August 1986 when I was approached. I determined this by means of information which I obtained from Brig Loots yesterday, indicating that the explosion had taken place in the eleventh month of 1986 and this incident where I was approached took place approximately three months before the explosion. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VISSER Before you get to this could you tell us, before July 1986, were you familiar with the person, Mr Johannes Mnisi? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, he was known to me as a Commander of Special Operations of MK. MR VISSER And where did he operate? MR P R CRAUSE He operated from Lusaka, but from time to time he also operated from within Botswana. MR VISSER Was he an important figure in the struggle of the past? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, very important. MR VISSER And did you collect information regarding him, or did you attempt to gather information regarding his activities in Botswana? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And over a period of time you provided that information to other members of the security community. MR P R CRAUSE Yes, it was reported as such to them, Chairperson. MR VISSER And indeed then also to Special Forces? MR P R CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Let me ask you this, this information that you collected and distributed, particularly to Special Forces, for what purpose was this done? MR P R CRAUSE It was with the objective of being able to determine his whereabouts and consequently being able to eliminate him. MR VISSER To eliminate him. Very well. You say that you were approached, can you elaborate on this please? MR P R CRAUSE It was approximately July or August 1986, when I received a visit from Capt Frans Harmse. Capt Harmse at that stage was attached to the Security Branch, Pretoria. MR VISSER Which area? MR P R CRAUSE It was for the Pretoria/Northern Transvaal area. MR VISSER And your position at that stage, what was it? MR P R CRAUSE I was the Branch Commander of the Security Branch in Zeerust. MR VISSER And he paid you a visit, what then? MR P R CRAUSE He then informed me that Johannes Mnisi had requested a certain source of theirs to obtain a vehicle for him, Mnisi, for his use in Botswana and that this vehicle was then equipped by himself or members of his security structure, with explosives ... CHAIRPERSON Who is this? MR P R CRAUSE This is Capt Harmse who informed me. CHAIRPERSON What did he and his colleagues doe? MR P R CRAUSE It was with the cooperation of the SADF that an explosive device was placed in this particular vehicle which would have been sent to Mr Mnisi, which would have been able to be detonated by means of remote control, and the vehicle was also equipped with a tapping device. In other words a transmitter, so that one could monitor conversations in the vehicle. MR VISSER And what did Harmse want to know from you, or what did he want from you? MR P R CRAUSE Harmse's request to us was that we would have to provide them with a facility near the Botswana border, from which point they would be able to erect radio equipment and monitor any discussions. Perhaps I could also mention that the planning, as he put it to me, Chairperson, was firstly to monitor discussions in the vehicle and if it could be determined that Mnisi was indeed in the vehicle, the device would be detonated. MR VISSER Did you also foresee within this scheme that other persons could also be present in the vehicle along with Mr Mnisi, who would also be killed? MR P R CRAUSE It could not have been different. MR VISSER Did you associate yourself and did you agree with the action? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, completely. MR VISSER And in terms of this request from Harmse, what did you do? MR P R CRAUSE Firstly, I notified my Commander in Potchefstoom, I informed him of the request that I had received from Capt Harmse and he informed me that I should continue and that I should have staff available, along with a premises from which the vehicle could be monitored. MR VISSER What would members of your branch have done in participation in this operation? MR P R CRAUSE They would have assisted with the monitoring of discussions in the vehicle. MR VISSER With what purposes would this have occurred? MR P R CRAUSE It was in order to collect information. And perhaps I could also mention at this stage that the person whom I deployed or assigned were Capt du Preez Smit and Frik Crause. MR VISSER Is Frik Crause related to you? MR P R CRAUSE Yes he is my brother, he was a staff member with me. MR VISSER And where was he in the rank structure? MR P R CRAUSE I'm speaking under correction but I do believe that he was a Warrant Officer. MR VISSER But he was fairly lower down in the structure. MR P R CRAUSE Yes, he was. MR VISSER And du Preez Smit was also below you? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, that is correct, at that stage he was a Lieutenant. CHAIRPERSON Who was the second person, Frik Crause and who else? MR P R CRAUSE Frik Crause and du Preez Smit. MR VISSER Both of them are fellow applicants of yours in this matter. MR P R CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Very well. You state that that you made a premises available, where and what was it? MR P R CRAUSE It was a safehouse which we possessed near the Koffiefontein border post. MR VISSER And was any radio transmission or reception equipment erected there? MR P R CRAUSE Yes. MR VISSER By whom? MR P R CRAUSE By Special Forces, their experts conducted this. MR VISSER And who manned the radio there? MR P R CRAUSE I must just mention that I visited the place periodically, I wasn't there permanently, but the person whom I met there was a person who was known to me as Pierre. MR VISSER You cannot recall his surname? MR P R CRAUSE No. MR VISSER Very well. And the two men from your branch or your division that you deployed, Smit and your brother Crause, they were alternately in order to monitor the situation to see whether or not information could be collected from discussions taking place in the motor vehicle. MR P R CRAUSE Let me just explain it as such, for two or three days after the monitoring of the discussions commenced, I received feedback from them indicating that discussions had indeed taken place. After that the discussions ceased and there were no further discussions for the following three months and in that period they periodically visited the place. MR VISSER When the discussions ceased, what was the idea then, what happened? MR P R CRAUSE We suspected that the vehicle had either travelled beyond the reception area or had travelled north to Zambia, outside of Botswana. MR VISSER And during these three months, do you know ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Or perhaps the device was discovered? MR P R CRAUSE Yes we were not entirely aware of what had happened to the motor vehicle. MR VISSER Or perhaps it had exploded? MR P R CRAUSE That was also a possibility, but I have an idea that if it had exploded in Botswana we would have known about it. MR VISSER During this three month period do you know whether or not Special Forces searched for the vehicle in Botswana? MR P R CRAUSE As I understood they did conduct a search. MR VISSER Yes, we will hear later from Mr Smit that they conducted and aerial search as well. MR P R CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER And what was the following thing that you heard? MR P R CRAUSE This would be approximately in the eleventh month. One Sunday morning I received a telephonic message from Gen Steyn, in which he informed me that he had heard over the news that a certain vehicle had exploded at a hospital at Mochudi, Botswana, he wanted me to establish exactly what had taken place there, what had been there and who had been involved. MR VISSER Who was that? MR P R CRAUSE Gen Steyn. On a Sunday morning he contacted me and informed me ... MR VISSER Just proceed. MR P R CRAUSE ... and informed me that he had heard over the news that an explosion of a vehicle had taken place near a hospital in Mochudi. MR VISSER Just spell that please. MR P R CRAUSE It was at Mochudi, M-o-c-h-u-d-i. MR VISSER In your application on page 16 you state that the names of the victims are unknown to you and so forth and that everything else is unknown to you and under (b) you also state that it is unknown to you whether any person was injured or killed or whether any damage was brought to property. MR P R CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Is that your knowledge still today? MR P R CRAUSE Later I heard that persons had indeed been killed and injured. MR VISSER Can you say how many persons were killed and how many were injured? MR P R CRAUSE Unfortunately not. I heard that one was killed, but I cannot say with certainty. MR VISSER Chairperson, we have attempted to obtain information in this regard and we were unsuccessful, but the recollection is that one or two persons, perhaps even three were killed and if my recollection ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What's he making application for? MR VISSER Well Chairperson, on the evidence he made himself guilty of conspiracy and being an accessory before the fact to murder and it is clear, it follows that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Then it doesn't seem to matter whether there was a fatality or not thereafter? MR VISSER That would be my submission. And of course with the car that they were going to explode, also malicious damage to property, the problem there ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR VISSER Well, the problem there is it was the motorcar belonging either to Special Forces or to the Police. So it's a moot point whether - but we believe Chairperson, that chances were ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I'm not going to get into it but if you're on the track to say they couldn't have committed the crime in respect of their own property, it is fatally wrong because actually it's not their property, it's public property. But we'll leave it at that, I appreciate what you're saying. MR VISSER No I was just going to submit as a submission, that it wouldn't have been the Police's, it's would have been the State's property, so it would still be a crime to commit. So in both those instances, Chairperson. And then again, the issue of defeating the ends of justice, which we've dealt with before and any other offence or delict. CHAIRPERSON This applicant was not in possession of any explosives? That was a fait accompli when he was told about ...(indistinct) MR VISSER Yes, in fact the vehicle as I - when you were approached by Harms - I just want to ask him that to make sure. When you were approached by Harmse, do you know whether or not the vehicle was still in the Republic or was it in Botswana? MR P R CRAUSE As far as he told me the source had already departed on his way to Botswana with the vehicle. MR VISSER You had nothing further to do with it? MR P R CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER ...(inaudible) NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON ... Mnisi, you say you had information concerning his - or collected information concerning his activities. MR P R CRAUSE That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON According to your evidence the decision to kill him had already been made when you were informed that that was the plan. MR P R CRAUSE Yes, it was the planning, it was decided before that he will be a target. Let me put it this way. CHAIRPERSON Were you part of that decision? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, I was part of the decision, I would have supported it. I was part of the decision. CHAIRPERSON When was this? MR P R CRAUSE It was a meeting, probably just after the Church Street bomb in 1983, where we received information. CHAIRPERSON So when Harmse got to you he knew that you had knowledge of the reasons to kill Mnisi? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR P R CRAUSE Correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you knew that he knew? It was not strange that he came to you? MR P R CRAUSE No, it wasn't strange at all. CHAIRPERSON It was just the manner in which he would be killed that they decided. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR P R CRAUSE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You agreed with that? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, I agreed with that. CHAIRPERSON Why was he targeted and killed? MR P R CRAUSE Can you just repeat your question please. CHAIRPERSON Why was he seen as a target? MR P R CRAUSE He was involved in various acts of sabotage, he was a Commander of Special Operations of the ANC and they were involved in acts of larger sabotage actions. CHAIRPERSON And you knew about this? MR P R CRAUSE Yes, we knew about this. I think every member of the Security Branch was aware of this. CHAIRPERSON Over what period did you collect this information? MR P R CRAUSE I was at Zeerust from 1971 and I think came under our attention from 1979 onwards. The problem was that he only periodically came down from Botswana and he moved around in a covert way. He initiated operations, completed operations and we had problems, or we found it difficult to find out where he was. CHAIRPERSON Why did it take so long to execute such a plan? MR P R CRAUSE This was a perfect time to do it, he requested a vehicle ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you didn't have the opportunity to do it before? MR P R CRAUSE No, we did not have the opportunity. CHAIRPERSON You didn't then consider to send in the Special Forces of the Defence Force to deal with this? MR P R CRAUSE That was our problem, Mr Chairperson. As I said, he only came down periodically. CHAIRPERSON I'm talking about in Botswana. MR P R CRAUSE Yes, I'm talking about Botswana. We did not know, we did not have vehicle particulars, we did not have detail of where he lived, where he was at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Over this period of six years you never knew? MR P R CRAUSE No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR P R CRAUSE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER I call Mr Smit, Chairperson. His application you will find at page 21 to 31 of the bundle.