amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-12 PRETORIA 6 J A STEYN AN4513/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54338&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200712pr.htm CHAIRPERSON According to Mr Crause, the first witness, Gen Steyn phoned him and asked him to investigate what the explosion at this hospital was all about, am I correct? MR VISSER ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Mr Steyn, in terms of the evidence thusfar, unless he's going to come and tell us differently, would not have known about that plan. MR VISSER No, he knew about it, he was informed. But you'll hear from him, Chairperson, that he's very vague on who informed him, but he was informed. J A STEYN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Steyn, you've already incorporated Exhibit A and B in your application and you confirm the contents of your application. MR STEYN That is correct. MR VISSER In this case Mr Steyn, can you recall it well? MR STEYN With the drawing up of my amnesty application I couldn't recall everything, but I do know now what happened. MR VISSER Can you tell us what do you think, on what date did this incident take place? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR STEYN I think it was in '85, in the eleventh month. MR VISSER Not in '86? MR STEYN No. MR VISSER Why do you say this? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson, I was already then transferred to Durban and this incident happened when I was still here. MR VISSER When were you transferred to Durban? MR STEYN I was transferred to Durban in May 1986. MR VISSER What do you know about this incident? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson, I was approached by Col Crause who informed me that he received a request to assist the Special Forces of the Defence Force in the monitoring of a vehicle that would be sent or was already in Botswana. MR VISSER You then gave instructions that the monitoring had to continue. MR STEYN That is correct. MR VISSER You heard his evidence today that the Security Branch of Northern Transvaal also asked for a house from which they could do this monitoring. MR STEYN That is correct. MR VISSER And you also approved this? MR STEYN Yes. MR VISSER Were you, or did you know of the activities of Johannes Mnisi? MR STEYN That is correct. MR VISSER Did you consider him as a target of the Security Forces? MR STEYN That is correct, he was a member of the Special Forces of the ANC. MR VISSER Do you know anything about any activities in which he was involved? MR STEYN He was, amongst others, involved in the Church Street bombing in Pretoria. MR VISSER And he also applied for amnesty for that incident, amongst others. MR STEYN That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER At a later stage did you hear anything concerning this monitoring and what was going on? MR STEYN Periodically I was informed that the contact of the members that did the monitoring, Smit and Crause, that they stopped this monitoring but continued on a periodic basis, but it did seem that they lost contact with this vehicle. MR VISSER You know that the action was aimed at killing Mr Mnisi and/or other people in that vehicle? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR STEYN That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You associated yourself with this? MR STEYN Yes. MR VISSER For the reasons that you just mentioned? MR STEYN Yes. MR VISSER Do you know what the end of this, or the result of this incident was? MR STEYN On the news, Chairperson, I heard that there was a vehicle in Mochudi that exploded close to a hospital or at the hospital and we had to report back in terms of our responsibility to Head Office, that's why I wanted to find out from Crause and Smit what was the circumstances surrounding this explosion. MR VISSER And as they testified you then contacted them and gave them the information and the instruction. MR STEYN Yes. MR VISSER You say in your application that if people were injured or killed, that they were unknown, what is your opinion today? MR STEYN Yes, I am of the opinion that people were killed and injured in that explosion. I saw a newspaper from Botswana in which they also referred to damage to the hospital building itself. MR VISSER Was reference made to people? MR STEYN Yes, they referred to people who were killed and injured. MR VISSER Is there anything else that you can recall and that you can add to clarify this incident? MR STEYN No, Mr Chairperson, I think that is all. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence from Mr Steyn. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER We have no further witness, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The application is in respect of conspiracy to murder and damage to property? MR VISSER Yes, damage to property, it's both the motorcar as well as, on this evidence there may have been damage to property in Botswana as well. If it's the same bomb, but it appears ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I don't think we can go that far because there must be some link between the bomb that caused the damage to the hospital and the bomb planted. We're not really sure. It is possible, I'm not saying no. MR VISSER Yes, that is why I thought it was important to try and establish a date, Chairperson, and we've not been able to be successful because ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That was my next question. I have to consider this with my Panel and if we're restricting to a conspiracy, then there's no problem about the date, but if you are going to insist on a particular finding as to murder, the date would have been important and - I think we're more confused. The vehicle belonged to the State? MR VISSER Yes. MR MALAN It may be a vehicle that they have stolen from some private individual. MR VISSER My attorney asks me to offer to you if you were interested in some reading matter and you don't have enough to read at this stage, he can present you with Mr Mnisi's amnesty applications as well, Chairperson. For what it's worth. CHAIRPERSON That is an early morning joke. Yes we'll reserve the decision in this.