amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-12 PRETORIA 16 CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA AM5015/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54343&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200712pt.htm MS VAN DER WALT The following, Chairperson, is Mr Cornelius Johannes Botha. CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Botha, your application is to be found in bundle 1, your formal application on page 242, the incident on 245 to 247 and the political motivation from 248 to 255, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have also heard the evidence of the other applicants and you are aware that there were three groups. You were with the group that took up position with the vehicle, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes that is correct, there at the Nerston/Amsterdam Road. MS VAN DER WALT And what were your instructions, what were you to do there? MR BOTHA We had to wipe out these persons, setting up a trap. MS VAN DER WALT And you have now heard that the vehicle came to a stop at a certain point, can you please tell the Honourable Committee where exactly you were standing when the vehicle came to a stop? MR BOTHA Chairperson, my position was second from the right, just left of Mr Labuschagne. MS VAN DER WALT If we have regard for the vehicle would this be towards the rear of the vehicle? MR BOTHA Yes, towards the rear of the vehicle. MS VAN DER WALT And how were you supposed to fire? MR BOTHA My idea was to fire through the back of the bakkie if there were persons on the back of the bakkie under the canopy. MS VAN DER WALT You say Mr Labuschagne was on your right? MR BOTHA Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Who was on your left? MR BOTHA I cannot recall, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And you then opened fire there, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You in your application mention that the passenger - that's page 246, Chairperson, paragraph 5, that the passenger on the left hand side of the vehicle climbed out, is that correct? MR BOTHA He tried to get out, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have already heard the evidence of Mr de Kock and Mr Labuschagne that the door of the vehicle did not open, what do you say about that? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, the door did open. MS VAN DER WALT Could you see the door from your position? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And did you see any firearm with this person? MR BOTHA He had something in his hand which looked like a firearm, Chairperson, looked like a firearm in the dark. MS VAN DER WALT And afterwards, did you see any firearms in the vehicle? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. On the back of the bakkie under the canopy there were many firearms and in front there was a handgrenade and I don't know whether it was a Makarov or a Tokarev but there was a hand weapon. MS VAN DER WALT And all the persons in the vehicle were shot dead? MR BOTHA They were all killed, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have heard the evidence of Mr van Dyk that you went to a point where he had taken up position. Did you transport the body of the person who was killed there? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And the other persons who were killed at the place where you fired shots? MR BOTHA Yes, that's also correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT In the post-mortem inquest you made two statements? Chairperson, this is on page 22 as well as pages 9 and 10 of bundle 2. This only deals with regard to the transport of the corpses, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You did not make any statement with regard to the shooting in the post-mortem inquest itself? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You then apply before this Honourable Committee for the murder of the three persons in the bakkie? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT As well as conspiracy to murder? You conspired to murder the person who was killed at the T-junction? MR BOTHA That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And the attempted murder of Mr Sindane? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT As well as defeating the ends of justice? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And any other offence which might flow from your actions of the operation there at Nerston? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT As well as any delictual accountability? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Thank you Chairperson, it's Ramawele. I just want to put to you just one submission that Mr Nofomela will say that the people who were going to go back to the Swaziland border were supposed to be eliminated and not arrested. MS VAN DER WALT Yes. MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR LAX Mrs van der Walt, please. Don't say "ja" to the witness when he's answering. I can hear you from here. It's really unacceptable. Okay? MS VAN DER WALT I'll do that. MR RAMAWELE You say yes? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE That's all Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, Lamey on record, on behalf of applicant Fourie, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Chairperson. Mr Botha, I would just like to put one question to you. There is one firearm that you had with you. Did you use tracer rounds in the magazine? MR BOTHA I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Can you recall if you saw any tracer rounds that evening of any of the other persons who fired shots there? MR BOTHA No, I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR PRINSLOO Prinsloo, Chairperson, no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUX Roux, Chairperson, just one aspect. Mr Botha, you were lying next to Mr Labuschagne on his left, that was your evidence? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR ROUX And that was right opposite the rear wheel in that vicinity? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR ROUX During your evidence, I did not hear you saying that the person tried to climb out or opened his door that was in the left in front with the pistol in his hand. You did not say that? MR BOTHA I did say that. MR ROUX Oh, you did say that? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR ROUX Your instruction was to fire into the back of the canopy, as you put it? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROUX Now when the shots were fired how quickly after the bakkie had stopped, shall I ask, did the shots commence? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I'm not sure but it was relatively quickly, it was only first just after the driver climbed out. MR ROUX Very well, the driver who climbed out and moved towards the back of the bakkie around the right hand side, did you see this person climbing out and moving in that direction? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. MR ROUX Did you see him opening his door and getting out? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. MR ROUX So I would assume the reason for this was that your attention was where you were instructed to check, you were firing at the canopy and you were looking at the canopy to see if you saw anyone there because you were to fire shots into the canopy? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROUX Very well then. Then your attention was not at the left front door, the passenger side of this bakkie, is that correct? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. MR ROUX Please explain that? If your attention was focused on the back of the canopy and you were lying approximately two or three metres from the canopy which is quite close to you, how did you then observe all the other points like the left front door? MR BOTHA Chairperson, the bakkie is not very big and if I look at this person asking me the questions I can see the persons to the left of me, I do have a wide vision. MR ROUX I do not want to cross-question you too long on this but this is one of the aspects which bother me and this is with regard to the person who would climb out of the van with a pistol in his hand as Greyling also had said. You afterwards saw in which position this person was sitting in the van. This was when he was dead? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROUX The persons who had already given evidence said that he had his two feet in the inside on the ground of the bakkie with the firearm in between his legs and he lay sideways towards the steering wheel? MR BOTHA That could be so, Chairperson, I do not have an exact position of how he was lying. MR ROUX You would accept it the other persons testified to that effect that it could be indeed the case? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROUX Would then please advance an explanation as to why this person would be in that particular position if he was busy getting out with a pistol in his hand on the left hand side of the bakkie? MR BOTHA Chairperson, yes, this person was shot back into the vehicle. MR ROUX Because you see, Mr Labuschagne - he gave evidence and you certainly heard this, that no one was giving a chance except for the driver who climbed out and moved to the back of the van to do anything before shots were fired? The correct definition of the work "lokval" or ambush, the moment when that person climbed out Col. de Kock started firing and the rest of the people afterwards. No one was given a chance to make any move except for the driver. Now what is your attitude towards that? MR BOTHA But that must have been the position, Chairperson, but the door opened before the shooting started. MR ROUX I would put it to you that it is highly improbable and I would argue to that effect. Your comment? MR BOTHA That may be so, Chairperson. If it has to be argued he can argue it but that is how I saw it. MR ROUX Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUX CROSS-EXAMINATION BY NTHAI Mr Botha, who told you about this plan to ambush these people? MR BOTHA If I recall correctly, Chairperson, it would be Mr de Kock. It was Mr de Kock or Mr Pienaar. MR NTHAI What did he say was going to happen? MR BOTHA Chairperson, he only informed me that people would be coming through and we would set up a trap and we would shoot the people. MR NTHAI Did he say you were going to set up a trap or you were going to ambush the people? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I would use the English word ambush here as opposed to the Afrikaans word "lokval" or trap because ambush means more that we would kill them. MR NTHAI And did he tell you about what is going to happen to the driver? MR BOTHA Chairperson, yes. This I understood at the scene, if I recall correctly that the driver would also be killed because he was the informer and he would also be killed. MR NTHAI At that time when you were informed, the question of the driver never arose. You were never told about the driver? MR BOTHA Not that I can recall, Chairperson. MR NTHAI How did you come to learn about the fate of the driver at the scene? Who told you that? MR BOTHA I think it was Mr Labuschagne who was to the right of me. It was said it was his instruction that if the driver came around we should shoot him while we were busy with the preplanning and the setting out of the ambush. CHAIRPERSON No, no, who was supposed to shoot him? Were you supposed to shoot him or Mr Labuschagne was supposed to shoot him? MR BOTHA Mr Labuschagne was supposed to shoot him. MR NTHAI I see. Were you told as to how many people were going to come there in that bakkie? MR BOTHA Please repeat that question? MR NTHAI Were you told how many people were going to with the bakkie? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson, there was no definite number given, it could have been more or less people, no figure was given to me. MR NTHAI I see. Now why was Mr Labuschagne telling you that he's supposed to kill the driver? Did he tell you that he was not supposed to kill him initially? At the scene, why did he tell you that he was supposed to kill the driver? He just told you out of the blue? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR NTHAI Why would he do that because I mean, according to you, you were supposed to eliminate these people? MR BOTHA Chairperson, he just told me, I don't know. MR NTHAI Did he tell you perhaps that initially he was not supposed to kill this person? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it could have been, I do not know. MR NTHAI So you can't recall exactly what he said? MR BOTHA I cannot recall everything, Chairperson. MR NTHAI I see. Who fired first at the scene? MR BOTHA Chairperson, no, it was to the left of me, I'm not sure who it was. MR NTHAI And how long did this firing last? MR BOTHA Chairperson, once again, under correction, it must have been a few seconds. MR NTHAI And once the first fire went on and then there was just shooting at random, is that correct? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. After the first volley of shots, as I have said that first few seconds and then we ceased fire and everyone ceased fire. MR NTHAI So what I'm trying to say, it happened very fast, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And immediately after the first fire you also started shooting? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you were looking at where you were shooting, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI According to your instructions, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you were looking at the back of the bakkie, is that correct? That's where you were supposed to concentrate? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI When the driver was shot, did you see that? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now when did you have time to see this person was jumping out? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I was close to him, I could see it. MR NTHAI Now you are saying that this person opened the door and you said today that he had something like a firearm but in your application you were sure that it was a pistol? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, I was certain it was a pistol but if I may explain, it was dark, it's difficult. It could be possible that it could have been something else in his hands but at that time I believed that it was a pistol. MR NTHAI Did somebody tell you it was a pistol? MR BOTHA I saw the pistol in the front of the bakkie, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now why today are you talking about something that - why today are you not specific about the pistol? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it must be the way that I speak. I was certain at that stage that it was a pistol and it could be that it could have been something else. MR NTHAI No, but I'm trying to say you were certain when at the scene that it was a pistol, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI There's no reason for you today to come and say that it's something in his hand. You have to say the pistol, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So the question is why are you changing that now, talking about something that looks like a pistol. MR BOTHA Chairperson, there was no purpose, it was not intentional that I changed it that I said that I think it was a pistol, it could have been a pistol at that stage. I believed it was a pistol and I still believed today that he had a pistol in his hand. But in the dark an object a few metres away from you, one that looks like a pistol, one cannot categorically say that it is a pistol. There is a difference there. MR NTHAI No, but you said in your initial - in your application when you had time to recollect what happened, that it was a pistol, you were certain about that? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX May I just interpose? Why were you categorical in your amnesty application if you're not sure? Surely you knew you had to tell the truth in your amnesty application? MR BOTHA No there was no specific reason for that, Chairperson. MR LAX Why didn't you say there was a gun-like object in his hand or a pistol-like object as you're saying now in your testimony? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, there's no explanation for that, I do not know why I wrote it that way. MR LAX Why did you say the man jumped out of the vehicle rather than he tried to get out of the vehicle which is what the truth actually is? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, there may be small differences. It appeared to me that he wanted to climb out and he was shot back and at that stage I saw it as such. MR LAX It looked to me like he tried to get out of the vehicle. You say he had categorically "the one passenger on the left hand side with a pistol in his hand who jumped out.." it's not that he looked as if he was trying to get out of the car. That's categorical, you would concede that? MR BOTHA Very well, may I then correct that point? Then it appeared as if he wanted to climb out. MR LAX Why did you say that in your amnesty application and you swore on oath that that was the truth? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, I have no explanation for that. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Nthai, I've interrupted your cross-examination. MR NTHAI Isn't it you are not having an explanation because you are trying to change your evidence, is that not the reason? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now you are saying that you are the one who picked up the bodies from the scene, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. May I just - if I understand the question "picked up the bodies"? Chairperson, yes, there were persons who assisted me in picking up the bodies but I transported the corpses. MR NTHAI Yes, I'm coming to that. MR BOTHA Okay. MR NTHAI How many people assisted you in carrying the body to the ...(inaudible). MR BOTHA Chairperson, I cannot recall. MR NTHAI But there were people who assisted you? MR BOTHA That is correct, some of the persons who were there at the scene. MR NTHAI And how did they load the bodies? Was there somebody standing at the back of the bakkie and picking up the body, giving to this person? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. They passed it on and loaded up as one would usually load up a corpse onto a vehicle. One stands at the top and he pulls it up. MR NTHAI No, no, I just want to know exactly what happened. I mean if you don't recall you'd better say you don't recall. Was there somebody who was standing inside the bakkie and then somebody picked up the body and then give it to this person and they put it down? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, I cannot recall that specifically. MR NTHAI Were you not observing when the bodies were put? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I was busy myself with the loading of the corpses. MR NTHAI You were also loading? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So you picked up a body and you loaded it? MR BOTHA I assisted, Chairperson. MR NTHAI No, but did you at any stage pick up the body - help in picking up the body and carrying the body physically carrying the body and putting it in the bakkie? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson. MR NTHAI So you should remember whether there was any person who was inside the bakkie taking the body from you as you picked it up from the ground? You should remember that? MR BOTHA Chairperson no, I cannot recall whether somebody was standing on the van, I think it was we put him on the side and then we dragged it in but I'm not sure. MR NTHAI When you say you dragged it in, what do you mean? Just explain? Just explain, I mean it's a very simple thing, you should recall that? You will recall that there was a person jumping with a pistol, I mean you should recall that, you were personally involved in that? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, yes we dragged it, you drag it by the arms, you drag it deeper into the bakkie, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So you picked it up, dragged it and put it in the bakkie? MR BOTHA Chairperson, we would pick it up, put it on the back of the bakkie and then we would drag it further in. MR NTHAI The person who was picking up the body is the person who put the body in the bakkie and then you dragged him forward. Is that what happened? MR BOTHA That could be Chairperson. As I have said that I cannot recall in detail. One would just load up a corpse. We just loaded it up. MR BOTHA The ones that you loaded, this corpses were not thrown into the bakkie, is that correct? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson, not that I can recall. MR NTHAI Okay, so the evidence that the bodies were thrown into the bakkie is not correct? MR BOTHA Chairperson, not that I know of, I did not see anyone throwing a corpse onto the bakkie. MR NTHAI And you are sure because at least you were the person who was going to transport these people? MR BOTHA Yes Chairperson, I assisted in the loading, I did not load up each and every corpse. MR NTHAI I mean there was nothing that disturbed you while you were loading, you were there all the time, is that correct? MR BOTHA Chairperson, yes I was busy there at the scene. I was not only tasked, I may have assisted with the loading, I may have spoken to someone in the front of the van, I may have been at some other point, I'm not specific. MR NTHAI I just want to show you the - I'm sure your legal representative has got it, the sketch that was drawn by Mr de Kock of the scene itself. MR BOTHA The sketch that has been drawn from the? MR LAX Yes, it's Exhibit B. MR NTHAI Exhibit B. MR BOTHA Okay. MR NTHAI According to Mr de Kock - you see there are those circles there? That indicates where the people were next to the vehicle, do you see that? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI You were somewhere there also, is that correct? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI According to Mr de Kock there were other people the other side, you see the other three circles there, the other side of the road, do you see that? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Do you see those people? MR BOTHA I see them. MR NTHAI Were they there? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR NTHAI So Mr de Kock is not telling us the truth when he says there were other people there? MR BOTHA No, there were no people on the other side. MR NTHAI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTHAI CHAIRPERSON How long are you going to be? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Just one question in relation to his amnesty application, Chairperson. I just want to refer you to page 247 of your application, that's bundle 1, paragraph 8 in relation to Mr van Dyk. Can you just read the first few lines there of paragraph 8? MR BOTHA "Paul van Dyk later joined us and reported to Eugene de Kock that the person who would accompany the two persons who were coming from Swaziland with them they had fired shots at them." MS COLERIDGE Was your interpretation in this application that the persons at the border first fired at Van Dyk's group before they actually opened fire? MR BOTHA That is correct, that is how I understood it, Chairperson. MS COLERIDGE And today you've heard and through the evidence you've heard Willemse say that he believed one person cocked the weapon but Mr van Dyk actually shot, he was the first person to shoot. You've heard what Advocate Nthai had said, what Mr Sindane's version is going to be that they never opened fire. Can you say that you were mistaken here? Does it look as if in this part of your application as if it was self-defence on the part of Mr van Dyk and his group? MR BOTHA Chairperson, no, that is how I heard Mr van Dyk reporting to Mr de Kock and may I also say that that is what he told me when I picked up the corpse. MS COLERIDGE So when did you hear him speaking to Mr de Kock regarding the shooting? MR BOTHA Just after he returned from his point back to our point and just after I arrived there also. MS COLERIDGE But you obviously weren't there? MR BOTHA At the point of Mr van Dyk? No I was not there, only with the picking up of the corpse, that's the only time I was there. MS COLERIDGE And then, just in relation to the man jumping out with the pistol in his hand, would this also regarding the post-mortem report look like self-defence on the part of the people at that point, that this man actually came out with a pistol and therefore threatening them? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson, that is how it happened, the only explanation I can advance why Mr Labuschagne did not see it was that because I was in between him and the door and in the dark Mr de Kock was right opposite the door, that's why he couldn't see it, that is the only explanation that I have but it could be some other way also but that's how I see it. MR LAX You said that you were between Labuschagne and the door? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson, I could have been I said. MR LAX He was on your left? MR BOTHA He was on my right, I was on his left. MR LAX Oh, you were on his left? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX Thank you. MS COLERIDGE And you were aware that Mr Deetlefs also gave this version that the person came out with a pistol in his hand? MR BOTHA I cannot recall that whether he also gave that evidence. MS COLERIDGE And then eventually he stated that it was a perception, it wasn't as if he could truly remember those facts, it was a perception at the time? MR BOTHA I cannot recall what he testified there, I'm sorry, Chairperson. MS COLERIDGE It was just under cross-examination by Advocate du Plessis, Chairperson, in relation to that, that he had no true real recollection of the man jumping out but he thought that it was - eventually it was just a perception on his part. MR BOTHA If I may come in here, Chairperson, I did not hear everyone's evidence, there was a day that I was not here, Chairperson. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MR SIBANYONI Mr Botha, how was the condition of light at the place where the vehicle stopped? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it was dark, it's a difference between a clear night and a dark night. In between the two. MR SIBANYONI Was there any moon or any source of light there? MR BOTHA I cannot recall seeing the moon but if I have to judge upon the strength of the light, there must have been half a moon. MR SIBANYONI Did the vehicle remain with it's lights on or were they off? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I cannot recall. MR SIBANYONI Were you able to see an object in this person's hand, the passenger whom you said was on the left hand side? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Was his hand up or did he just have his hand next to him? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly where the hand was, it was just silhouetted against the back where there was more light than on his side. MR SIBANYONI Now if you say he was shot back into the car, what do you exactly mean by that? MR BOTHA Chairperson, when he wanted to jump out or I should not use the word jump out, when he wanted to climb out or when the door opened, the shooting commenced and immediately when the shooting commenced the door and he went back. That is what I mean. MR SIBANYONI In other words he went back on his own, not that because of the shooting, the momentum put him back? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, that's not what I said. Along with the shooting it was simultaneous. MR SIBANYONI Chairperson, no further questions. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. Mr Botha, I just want to be clear about one thing. If you look at Exhibit B, where were you in this exhibit in relation to the vehicle? Don't worry about the three dots and the six dots and so on, just situate yourself on that in relation to one of those dots. MR BOTHA Chairperson, if I can situate myself with one of those dots, the place where it is - second to the right hand side. MR LAX Second from the right? MR BOTHA That is correct, from the right. MR LAX Okay and then the next dot after you is Labuschagne? MR BOTHA On the right hand side, that's correct. MR LAX Is Labuschagne the last dot then? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR LAX Okay. You said you saw the driver come around? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, I did not see him coming around. MR LAX You saw him being shot though? MR BOTHA Chairperson, he was shot going around the back of the vehicle, I did not see him being shot. MR LAX But Mr Nthai asked you specifically did you see the driver being shot and your answer was yes, you saw it? Categorically, it was crystal clear, that's why I'm asking you? MR BOTHA No, Chairperson. I did not see him when he was shot, I saw him lying there after the shooting. If I gave that evidence then it was incorrect or I did not understand the question correctly. MR LAX You couldn't see the driver from where you were? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR LAX And you say you only saw him after the event? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX You see, just explain to us then why you tell us in your application that the driver climbed out of the vehicle and came around the back running? You didn't see that happen at all? MR BOTHA No Chairperson, which application did I right that? MR LAX Just let me just make absolutely sure I'm not misdirecting myself? No, at page 246, paragraph 5? You said: "Later that evening a bakkie approached us and stopped opposite us. The driver immediately jumped out and ran around the back of the bakkie while the one passenger on the left hand side with a pistol in his hand jumped out." So you never saw that first part of that sentence at all? MR BOTHA Chairperson, that's correct, I did not see the driver jumping out, it was impossible to see him because I was on this side of the van and he was on the opposite side, he was behind the van. That statement there is incorrect. MR LAX Well can you explain to us why it's there at all if you didn't see it happen? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I can only assume that it was an assumption that I made there, that I tried to put into a fact which is not so. MR LAX So you don't know whether he ran or whether he walked, you've no idea at all? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR LAX Did anyone tell you why the driver had to be shot? MR BOTHA Chairperson, no, no one told me. MR LAX Now why have you applied for amnesty for the attempted murder of Mr Sindane? MR BOTHA Chairperson, because we ambushed these people and it was not ...(intervention) MR LAX You weren't there at all? MR BOTHA I was there, that's what I said. MR LAX Mr Sindane? Mr Sindane was ambushed elsewhere? MR BOTHA Oh, I beg your pardon. MR LAX You weren't present at all? MR BOTHA Yes I don't know. Not for Mr Sindane, only for the incident there at Nerston. MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, I've no further questions. CHAIRPERSON One matter I would like to clear up, I don't know if you can help us? When you were waiting for this bakkie to arrive at the scene, were you lying down in the grass, squatted down in the grass, standing up? What were you doing? MR BOTHA We were lying down Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAX Just to follow on if I may Chairperson? Did you fire from a lying position at the vehicle? MR BOTHA No Chairperson. MR LAX What did you do? MR BOTHA When the van stopped in front of us we stood up and moved closer and then we shot. MR LAX So you stood up, walked towards the vehicle, one or two paces, because you were only three metres from the vehicle? MR BOTHA That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Thank you. Thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MS VAN DER WALT Those are then the applicants for whom I appear. MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, the next amnesty applicant is Isak Daniel Bosch.