amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-12 PRETORIA 16 ISAK DANIEL BOSCH AM3765/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54344&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200712pt.htm MR ROSSOUW Thank you Chairperson, I represent Mr Bosch and you'll find his amnesty application on page 57 of bundle A. ISAK DANIEL BOSCH (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Chairperson. Mr Bosch, your amnesty application, page 57 of bundle 1, do you have that before you? MR BOSCH Yes I do. MR ROSSOUW Is that your application and do you confirm the contents thereof? The formal aspect from page 57 to page 63? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Is that your signature on page 63? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, to clear up any uncertainties, would you just have a look at page 61? There reference is made to remuneration, whether you received any remuneration. You say there "yes, a bonus in cash", would you just tell the Committee what that was for? MR BOSCH This was for the attack in Lesotho. MR ROSSOUW This has no regard in relation to this incident? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW And then do you have an initial statement attached to your application, this is from page 63 to 69, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And the specific paragraphs which deal with this incident you will find that on page 66, paragraph 11.4? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, then you also supplemented your application with a further affidavit and is that the statement which we find on page 70 and further and is it your signature on page 78? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, would you please tell us, in 1988 we know this incident took place in August of 1988. Where did you work and what was your rank? MR BOSCH I was working at security branch of Vlakplaas and my rank was sergeant. MR ROSSOUW Who was your commander at Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH Col. de Kock. MR ROSSOUW Very well, Mr Bosch, let us commence with this specific incident. On page 72 and further, would you please have a look at page 73? There in the first paragraph you mention ...(intervention) MR LAX I understood this incident took place in 1986, not 1988? You've just got him to agree with you that it happened in 1988? MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairperson, my apologies, I'm mistaken. Mr Bosch, your recollection, when did this take place? MR BOSCH In 1986, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, on page 73, the first paragraph, you mention that information was received at Vlakplaas with regard to these MK soldiers who would infiltrate the RSA from Swaziland. What is the correct position to the statement there? MR BOSCH We came from Vlakplaas with the Sedibi incident then after the Sedibi incident this incident took place, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Were you part of the Vlakplaas contingent who were deployed for the Sedibi case? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You mention information came from Piet Retief security branch and you also state that there was a planning meeting in Amsterdam. Where was this, was this in Amsterdam or where was it? MR BOSCH It was at the safe house in between Amsterdam and Piet Retief. MR ROSSOUW Is this the safe farm that you refer to? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Would you please tell the Committee what happened during this planning session? What was the plan? MR BOSCH According to what I can recall, there was source who would help persons to infiltrate South Africa with arms and we would set up a trap for them and eliminate them. MR ROSSOUW Very well, you also state that consideration was given to arrest MK soldiers. What do you recall about that aspect of arrest? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I can recall the arrest for the source because no one would bring in insurgents if they know that they would be caught in a trap. MR ROSSOUW Is this what was told to the source? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Were you present or did you ever meet the source? MR BOSCH No Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW So the fact that this was conveyed to the source, this is hearsay? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And where did you hear this? MR BOSCH I cannot recall whether it was Col. de Kock or Van Dyk but somebody told us this is how the plan would be. MR ROSSOUW And you say in the final instance these persons would be killed? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, you also say that the security members and the Vlakplaas members were divided into two groups. On page 73. Would you please tell the Committee was that part of the planning? MR BOSCH Yes, we would have set up the ambush next to the road and Mr van Dyk would be close to the border to get the people who returned. MR ROSSOUW So this, referring to the two groups on page 73? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You also state there that if the vehicle did not stop members of the security branch would pursue the bakkie, do you recall that? MR BOSCH I recall something like that, Chairperson, because we did not have any vehicle with us, we were on foot, we were lying next to the road and if that bakkie passed us along that road I think the group that Col. de Kock refers to, he says it's opposite us but they were far in front of us. MR ROSSOUW Do you know whether that evening at the operational scene a second group was deployed? MR BOSCH I cannot say that Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Very well then, Mr Bosch, on page 74 you state all the persons who were involved in the operation, would you go through the list and tell the Committee what your memory is about these persons? MR BOSCH Chairperson, when I made this statement I was under the impression and as my memory has serves me Willie Nortje was present, Leon Flores was not present, Snor Vermeulen was not present and Joe Coetzer was not present but these were all people who worked with us on previous occasions and I'm getting confused with all the names. MR ROSSOUW These persons that you referred to are they Vlakplaas members? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW You also state that there were other members whose names you do not know. Do you refer there to members from Vlakplaas or members of security branch? MR BOSCH Those were members from security branch Nelspruit and Piet Retief as well as Vlakplaas members. MR ROSSOUW Then Mr Bosch, on page 74 you describe the deployment next to the road. I would like to ask you to study Exhibit B, it's a sketch that Mr de Kock drew up and in that line of persons who were deployed on the left of the road, can you possibly tell the Committee where you were exactly along that line from the bottom? MR BOSCH I was the fourth of fifth person because my instruction was to fire through the canopy. MR ROSSOUW And Mr de Kock, in relation to you where was he? MR BOSCH He was to my left. I cannot say he was right next to me but he was on my left. MR ROSSOUW Very well Mr Bosch, the firearm that you had that evening, what type of firearm did you have? MR BOSCH It was a 9 mm mini-uzzi. MR ROSSOUW And what type of weapon is it? MR BOSCH It's an issued weapon that was issued by Police Head Office along with our pistols. MR ROSSOUW So it was an issued firearm? It was the firearm issued to you? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And this particular evening, did you load your magazine yourself? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And did you put any tracer bullets in the magazine? MR BOSCH I always had tracer bullets in my magazine. MR ROSSOUW So that was practice? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW So you cannot recall whether you loaded them that evening? MR BOSCH No, but I usually did load tracer bullets. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, would you please explain to the Committee what happened at the scene where the shooting had taken place? MR BOSCH Mr Chairperson, the vehicle came to a stop somewhat past us and the driver door opened, some climbed out but it was not slowly, he climbed out quickly and moved to the back of the vehicle and then the instruction came "fire". It was not a military instruction by Col. de Kock "fire, everyone fire". I was close to him and I heard him say "fire" and I heard him saying "cease fire" also, I can recall that. MR ROSSOUW You earlier testified what was your instruction, where did you have to fire towards the bakkie? MR BOSCH Because we did not know how many persons would come through in that bakkie, we were told that my task was to shoot through the canopy reasonably high because there would have been explosives in the bakkie and we were told to aim high. MR ROSSOUW After you ceased fire did you see anything else with regard to the passenger door? MR BOSCH Chairperson, according to my recollection, the door did open. I cannot say it opened entirely, nobody climbed out but the door did open. MR ROSSOUW Did you see anyone jumping out with a firearm in his hand or wanting to jump out? MR BOSCH No Chairperson, but afterwards we saw that this person had a pistol between his legs. MR ROSSOUW Was this pistol in the front of the bakkie, in the cabin? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, would you just tell the Committee, after the shooting had ceased, did you find any deceased and how many of them? MR BOSCH There were two inside the bakkie and one outside the bakkie to the rear of the bakkie. MR ROSSOUW I would ask you to study Exhibit B again. You will see there a figure has been drawn to the right hand side of the bakkie, is that where the person was lying? MR BOSCH Maybe more to the rear of the vehicle that is more or less correct. MR ROSSOUW Very well, Mr Bosch, and on page 75 you also state that a variety of explosives and firearms were found in the vehicle. I would like you to study Exhibit A. The backpacks there and the arms, did you see that in the bakkie? MR BOSCH That is correct, in the bakkie - there on the photo it looks the same because I recall them photographing it . MR ROSSOUW Very well Mr Bosch and you also state that the deceased's bodies were taken to the Piet Retief Police Station. You heard Mr Botha testify that he was involved in the loading of these corpses. Were you involved or did you assist in the loading of these corpses? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, in the post-mortem inquest did you give evidence? MR BOSCH No. MR ROSSOUW Did you make any statement during this inquest? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch, in your amnesty application you state that there were four or five persons who were killed. Now in hindsight we know that three persons were killed at the scene where you were deployed and another person. Are you able to tell the Committee how you come to the figure of five? MR BOSCH Chairperson, these were the persons who were killed in the operation. The fifth one must have been the one who was injured but as far as I recall it was four or five persons who were shot during the whole operation. MR ROSSOUW Mr Bosch you have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock with regard to the political motivation or objective of this operation. Do you agree with that? MR BOSCH Yes Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And do you also on page 76 confirm the political objective which you wanted to obtain with regard to your participance in this operation? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Did you receive any remuneration for this operation? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you act out of any malice towards these persons who would enter the country? MR BOSCH No Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And did you at all times act under the instructions of Col. de Kock? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW That's the evidence in chief, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR HATTINGH Hattingh on record, Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMAWELE Mr Bosch, I just want to put it to you that Mr Nofomela will deny that Mr Paul van Wyk was at the Amsterdam T-junction? MR BOSCH Chairperson, he was definitely not with us, he and Douw Willemse were at the other ambush, if I can call it an ambush. MR RAMAWELE And Mr Nofomela will also say that the people who were supposed to come back to the Swaziland border was supposed to be shot and eliminated? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR RAMAWELE That is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson. Lamey on behalf of Fourie. I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Chairperson. Prinsloo. I've got no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS VAN DER WALT No questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR ROUX Roux on record, no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROUX CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTHAI Mr Bosch, you talked about a planning meeting, where did this meeting take place? MR BOSCH Chairperson, it was not a formal meeting, it was on that safe farm where we collected all our firearms because we knew we were going on an operation. MR NTHAI Yes, who was there? Who was there at that place? MR BOSCH I think most of the people who were involved in the operation were, there were people there from Nelspruit and Ermelo. It was not that we sat around the table and said that we would discuss this and plan this. It was very informal. MR NTHAI But the operation was discussed, is that not correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, we knew that we were going out on an operation, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And everybody who was involved in that operation was there? MR BOSCH As far as I can recall, yes. MR NTHAI Is that the place where you heard about the operation for the first time? MR BOSCH Chairperson, no. The first time that we knew that something would happen was only just after Sedibi had been abducted and we heard that a source who said that people would be brought in so we did not know when it would happen so we waited about a day or two or maybe three but it was not immediately. MR NTHAI But I'm talking about - I mean where you heard that you were now going for an operation to now go and ambush people. That was for the first time you heard about that? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you were getting this from Mr de Kock? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI So he was briefing all of you who were involved in the operation, is that correct? MR BOSCH As far as I can recall, yes Chairperson. MR NTHAI And that is where it was then discussed that the other group would go the other side, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Do you recall what was the order by Mr de Kock. What were you supposed to do with these people? MR BOSCH We would shoot these people. MR NTHAI That applies also to the other group, the other side? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I cannot say that it has regard for them but I would believe it was the same because everyone had to be eliminated. MR NTHAI Yes, what I'm trying to say is - I mean you were saying you were present when it was said the other group was from the other side? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI And your order was just you were going to eliminate these people? MR BOSCH Correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI Not talk of arresting anybody? MR BOSCH No. MR NTHAI Now I just want to bring you to the incident itself. Do you agree that there was another group the other side as Mr de Kock has indicated there? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I know there was a group on the other side. Not right opposite the vehicle. If the vehicle stopped here there could not be a group over there on the other side because we would shoot them but I suspected there was a stopper group at least a kilometre from our group. That is what my memory tells me. MR NTHAI Are you saying this group was almost a kilometre from where you were? MR BOSCH I cannot recall exactly but they were not directly opposite us, that is as far as I can recall because if this vehicle did not stop and it kept going because we never knew what could happen in the vehicle and this vehicle kept going then it had to be stopped at some other place. MR NTHAI Mr Bosch, are you telling us what you saw or what you suspected happened? Did you see this group that was ...(intervention) MR BOSCH No, I did not see it but there was talk of such a group, there was definitely talk of such a group. MR NTHAI Who was talking about such a group? MR BOSCH Mr de Kock. MR NTHAI Where did he talk about the group? MR BOSCH He said that he would set up a stopper group. I mean Mr de Kock, his planning was always one hundred percent, he would not have omitted something like this. MR NTHAI No, no, I just want to know where. Was it at that safe house? Where did he talk about his other group? MR BOSCH Yes I would suspect it was at the safe house. MR NTHAI No, no, did you suspect, did he say so? I mean just be clear about what you're talking about? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I can recall, as I told you that my memory tells me that there was a stopper group but I cannot place it on black and white that there was indeed one. MR NTHAI So but now why are you disputing that there was a group standing opposite there, why are ...(indistinct) MR BOSCH Because there was no group opposite us, there was no group at the shooting. MR NTHAI So Mr de Kock is just getting this from his own head, this never happened? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I would like to have clarity about this but there were no people on the other side. According to my memory there were no people. MR NTHAI Who were the people, the people who we suspect were one kilometre. Who were these people? MR BOSCH People from the security branch from Piet Retief. MR NTHAI They were also present there at the meeting? MR BOSCH Possibly yes, Chairperson. MR NTHAI No, no, I'm asking you were they there? I mean when these groups were divided, was this group divided that it would go the other side? Did you see that? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I just said that my memory tells me that there was a stopper group and that is what I can recall. MR NTHAI I see. Now - and you are saying they has a vehicle? MR BOSCH Correct Chairperson. MR NTHAI You know that? MR BOSCH One cannot be a stopper group without a vehicle. MR NTHAI You didn't see a vehicle, not so? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I was not at that scene, I was at the scene where the shooting took place. MR NTHAI No but are you assuming that there was a vehicle? MR BOSCH I suppose that they should have had a vehicle. MR NTHAI And you say what was the reason this other group was there, that you could call a stopper group? MR BOSCH If these vehicle could not stop we could not say it was not our source. I never spoke to the source but let us suppose that source decided that he will not stop, he will just keep going, then we all sat there without a vehicle and then the weapons would come in. So it's always a chance that one has to take and some way from there the vehicle had to be stopped with another vehicle otherwise it's a useless operation. MR NTHAI I see. Was this vehicle also going to ambush, was there an order that they were going to ambush these people also? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. If he did not stop here, then that vehicle had to stop him. As far as I can recall, that vehicle had to stop their vehicle. MR NTHAI It's very strange because we never heard that evidence? For the first time we hear about it? MR BOSCH That is how I recall it, Chairperson. MR NTHAI De Kock himself didn't give us that evidence? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as I have said that is how I recall it. MR NTHAI Now on page 74 you're talking about some names and your are saying these people were not there? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR NTHAI Were these people also from Vlakplaas? MR BOSCH All are Vlakplaas members, Chairperson. MR NTHAI The part of the group that came to abduct Sedibi? MR BOSCH No Chairperson. MR NTHAI Are you sure they were not part of the group? MR BOSCH No Chairperson. MR NTHAI Now if they were not part of the group that came to abduct Sedibi and they were not part of the group that was involved in the operation, why did you mention their names? MR BOSCH Chairperson, Willie Nortje, I always worked in the same area with Willie Nortje. We were always deployed in that area. Leon Flores was deployed with us in that area so at various other occasions they worked with us there. Pieter Botha worked with us there. MR NTHAI I'm with you but why do you mention them here? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I had no insight to anyone statement when I drew up this statement. This had to come from my memory and these were the appointed people who I suspected who would be there, I made a mistake here, I'm sorry for that mistake. MR NTHAI No, no, you see I just want to understand how the mistake came about? I understand you made - how the mistake came about because these people were not part of the ...(indistinct). MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, they were not there. MR NTHAI And just because you know them, you just mentioned their names? MR BOSCH Chairperson, they previously worked in that area with us. It was many years ago, I cannot recall who worked with me on this and that day. MR NTHAI I see. Who came - I mean, the group who came to abduct Sedibi, it was yourself and who else? MR BOSCH Myself, Col. de Kock, Paul van Dyk, Joe Cooley was there, I think. There was a whole number of us. MR NTHAI And you are saying that you didn't see this person who opened the door as we heard in the evidence? The other person who came with a pistol, who tried to come out with a pistol? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I said that I saw the door opening but my attention was not supposed to be focused there, my attention was directed at the canopy. I recall the door opening, it did open. MR NTHAI Yes. I just want to go back again to that meeting you had. At this meeting what were you told, were you told how many people were going to come there? MR BOSCH How many people would infiltrate? MR NTHAI Yes. MR BOSCH No, nobody told us, that is why we did not know and that is why Mr Botha also testified now that he received instruction to shoot through the canopy. If we knew that there were two people there we would not have had so many people there because we didn't know how many people would come in. MR NTHAI Were you told whether these people were armed or not? MR BOSCH We knew that they would be armed, yes Chairperson. MR NTHAI And you knew that they had explosives? That was said in the evidence? MR BOSCH That is why we fired high through the back of the canopy, yes. MR NTHAI And this was said by Mr de Kock? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI You will be having explosives? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR NTHAI There's just one aspect that I wanted to hear from you. You know this question of five people that I mentioned who were killed, how did it come about? It's only yourself who mentioned it? MR BOSCH Chairperson, it was the three in the vehicle, the one with Mr van Dyk and Mr Sindane who was wounded. MR NTHAI No, but you talked about people who were killed? MR BOSCH Yes, I wrote here four or five. MR NTHAI I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTHAI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE Mr Bosch, just in relation to the meeting, was the original plan to eliminate the source? MR BOSCH Chairperson, as far as I can recall that was the plan right from the beginning, yes. MS COLERIDGE Because Mr Fourie says there was no plan to eliminate the informer or the source. Would he have been at that very same meeting where you were at? MR BOSCH Chairperson, Mr Fourie did the identification along with Sedibi at Piet Retief so he had closer contact with Mr Freek Pienaar so he would have had more information. You must remember we came from the outside. MS COLERIDGE So if certain applicants were stating that there was no plan to eliminate the source that that would be totally incorrect and that was never a fact? MR BOSCH I cannot say that, Chairperson. It may have been possible in the beginning stages but when we became involved that was not the case. MS COLERIDGE And then can you definitely say that the person in the front of the vehicle that opened the door, were your eyes focused on this person all the time? It wasn't all the time but did he ever jump out and wield the pistol? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. What I can recall was the door opened and I did not have another look because that was not my area where I was supposed to work. My area was at the rear but I do recall that the door opened but nobody jumped out and waved a gun around. I would have seen that. MS COLERIDGE And then in your amnesty application you stated that the initial plan, initially it was discussed that the MK soldiers would be arrested. Who brought up that plan? MR BOSCH Chairperson, what I suspect happened there, as I can recall was that that was the original plan that was given to the source. MS COLERIDGE Fine. And then you said, well during the discussions, it transpired that all of the MK soldiers would be killed? MR BOSCH That is correct. MS COLERIDGE And then you state further that there were no measures put in place for an arrest as well, is that correct? MR BOSCH Nothing was discussed with me or what I knew of. MS COLERIDGE Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE MR SIBANYONI I've got no questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON One aspect I'd like to get further information about, you were told that this vehicle was going to stop in front of you and that it contained armed men who would be a danger to you? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you were lying there or standing up now, you stood up when the vehicle stopped? MR BOSCH That is correct. CHAIRPERSON There was nothing whatsoever happening at the rear of the vehicle, at the canopy? MR BOSCH No, there were no people in the canopy, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you see a door opening where an armed man can get out and start shooting but you just look away and don't look further? How? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. I knew that there were people on my left who would concentrate on the front of the bakkie. It was dark, Mr Botha said that there was some moonlight but I do not know who was lying flat in the back of that bakkie. CHAIRPERSON At that time it would have taken you another five, ten seconds to watch and see if the door opened. I just can't understand anyone in a position of that type where there is shooting taking place where their life may be in danger, looking away from what is a potential enemy? An armed enemy who may be emerging. MR BOSCH I hear what you say Chairperson. The fire power on our side was so much that no one would be able to get out of that vehicle. So it was not a concern for me on my side, to me personally. CHAIRPERSON So you just didn't bother? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Can I just follow up one thing Chairperson? You said you just saw the door open? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAX How far did it open? MR BOSCH It's small bakkie, Chairperson, the door just opened. I did not recall that when the bakkie stopped and the man said he would take a walk that other man would also want to take a walk, I cannot say that and just afterwards the shooting ensued. MR LAX Yes, was the door opened six inches, did it open two foot? MR BOSCH I would say between four inches and eight inches. MR LAX So it was hardly open, it was just a tiny bit open? MR BOSCH It just started opening. MR LAX Now just to clarify this, because I've made myself confused by the remarks I've made on annexure B and I just want to clear that up with you. Exhibit B, I beg your pardon. You said you were the fourth or the fifth from the bottom, that's how you put it? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX If we put the page in landscape fashion like this, then you would be from the right hand side, the fourth or the fifth? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, are you saying you were fourth from the right? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, approximately the fourth or fifth from the right hand side. I was to the rear of the bakkie. CHAIRPERSON Well that's not, in my understanding, that's not from, that is towards the right hand side? MR BOSCH Chairperson, if we look, I think it's Labuschagne who was first, then Botha who said it was him, then it was either myself and somebody else or myself then but we were towards the rear of the bakkie. CHAIRPERSON So you were looking at Exhibit B about in line with the bakkie? MR BOSCH With the canopy in front of me. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LAX Can I just clarify one thing? So the actual position in which the bakkie stopped, the canopy was in front of you? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, I recall it was standing skew, it was not standing parallel with the line in the road, it was standing a little bit skew with the backside in the road. MR LAX So it half pulled off the road in other words? MR BOSCH Yes, half pulled off the road. But that was the factual position? The intended position, however, was further back from that position? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And in that case you would have been much closer to the front of the vehicle? MR BOSCH It actually passed us. It came and I think there was some barrier on the side and I knew I had to shoot towards the back because we knew that the bakkie had to stop next to the barrier. It was standing but when it stopped it was standing right in front of me. MR LAX My point is this, though, that had the vehicle stopped where it was supposed to stop rather than go past that point, you would have been much closer to the front of the vehicle? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX And it would have made shooting at the canopy very difficult because you would have had to shoot through the cabin into the canopy? MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson. MR LAX Well that doesn't make sense, does it? If your job was to shoot at the canopy, why put yourself in a position where you have to shoot through the cabin? MR BOSCH I have no idea, Chairperson. MR LAX You'll agree it's totally improbable? MR BOSCH I understand, yes. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR ROSSOUW None Chairperson. Chairperson, may I ask that the applicant be excused on the same conditions as all other applicants? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW WITNESS EXCUSED MS COLERIDGE Chairperson, before we call the next applicant, I've just had a request for a short adjournment for a call of nature, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will probably finish hearing evidence tomorrow it seems and we will then start on argument. Would you want your client to be here at that time? There may be points that you want to consult of him on? So I'm merely suggesting - you've asked for his being excused. He can certainly be excused now but I'm wondering if you should ask him to be here tomorrow in case you might want to consult with him on anything? It's up to you, I don't know how much time you've had? MR ROSSOUW No Mr Chairperson, that's correct but I'm just asking for him to be excused now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS