amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-13 JOHANNESBURG 7 TSHEPO STANLEY BUHALI AM5308/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54346&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200713jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. Today we have only one application before us, the application of T S Buhali and J I Dube. The Panel which will hear this application is consisting of myself, Motata, as the Chairperson, and on my right I have my brother Judge de Jager from the TPD and on my left I have Adv Bosman, who is a true South African, because depending on her whims on that day, she would reside anywhere, but she is a South African. I would request the legal representatives to place themselves on record. MR KOOPEDI I am Brian Koopedi. I'm appearing for the two applicants before you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Before I invite the other legal representatives, I see here I have somewhat confusion that I have Mshibe or Bugazi, or Buhali but I'm advised that there has been a change of surname. What is the actual surname? MR BUHALI It's Buhali. CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MR BUHALI Buhali. CHAIRPERSON Buhali? Thank you. Mr Richard, I'm sorry, you may. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Tony Richard, Johannesburg. I appear for the victims. CHAIRPERSON There are apparently three incidents which we would be dealing with, for which incident are your victims? MR MAPOMA Sorry Chairperson, may I place my name on the record as well? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MAPOMA I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Leader of Evidence. Thank you. MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. The victims beside me are those who were at the ambush of a police vehicle at Meadowlands in January 1988, that's the item 2 on page 1 of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON Could we, whilst we are at it, get their full names? MR RICHARD What are your full names? MR RAMETSI Edward Rametsi. MR MANGOANE Fanie Mangoane. MS KGWEDI Agnes Kgwedi. MR RICHARD Agnes? MS KGWEDI Kgwedi. MR RICHARD Kgwedi, K-G-W-E-D-I. Thank you. ADV BOSMAN What is the position with Sergeant Kekane, is he not one of your clients? MR RICHARD Sergeant Kekane is no longer a policeman and he is not here today. ADV BOSMAN Was he notified though because I mean if he's not a policeman, he's still a victim. MR RICHARD According to his former colleague next to me, he didn't receive a notice, but I haven't investigated, I can't speak as to whether he did or didn't get - as to whether a notice was or was not sent. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, will you assist us in that regard in respect of Mr Kekane? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, the notices were sent to all the victims who could be identifiable and Mr Kekane is one of those victims. JUDGE DE JAGER To which address? MR MAPOMA I will have to find out what the address is, I don't have it off-hand. CHAIRPERSON I have a notice in my bundle that there's a summary page 1 of the paginated papers that four victims have been identified, but we don't have addresses on those incidents. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, the address which appears on the notice is SAPS Meadowlands Police Station, Soweto and this notice is dated the 12th of June 2000, in fact together with other notices. CHAIRPERSON So it's obvious that he did not get the notice unless the police station has his forwarding address. MR MAPOMA The notice, Chairperson, of Mr Rametsi who is here, was served on SAPS Meadowlands Police Station as well. He is here. CHAIRPERSON Fanie Mangoane? MR MAPOMA And that of Inspector Mangoane was served as SAPS Meadowlands Police Station, he is also here. CHAIRPERSON Agnes Kgwedi? MR MAPOMA Ms Kgwedi, it was served on, the address which appears is 211 C Zone 2, Meadowlands Soweto. JUDGE DE JAGER So the only one causing problems is Kekane. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, who served the notices? How was service effected? MR MAPOMA The notices were faxed to the police station, Chairperson, the Meadowlands Police Station, as it appears here. CHAIRPERSON Let's look at Ms Agnes Kgwedi, how was it effected? MR MAPOMA Can I just get an explanation from the Investigator? What I have just received from Mr Calitz is that these notices were faxed to the Johannesburg office for service and then he served these notices to the Police Station but he was advised that Mr Kekane is no longer at the Meadowlands Police Station and he did not get the forwarding address for him and therefore he could not serve it to him. CHAIRPERSON But he remains a victim then in that instance. MR MAPOMA Precisely, yes, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Perhaps his ex-colleagues could tell us but it seems as though Kekane wasn't injured. MR RICHARD Chairperson from Mr Rametsi next to me, I'm told that Sgt Kekane left Meadowlands Police in mid-year last year, 1998, two years ago and he was slightly injured, not seriously injured. JUDGE DE JAGER Could they assist us in getting his address? MR RICHARD I have asked while we were inquiring. Let me reconfirm what I was told, no one knows - it is confirmed, they do not know his new address. JUDGE DE JAGER But surely the Police Force should have a forwarding address. Wouldn't he be entitled to a pension? Wouldn't he ... MR RICHARD I've just been informed that he was discharged by reason of being medically unfit. I would assume that the South African Police Services do have a forwarding address, but what would be incorrect to say is that the two members of the South African Police Services next to me would know of it. Somewhere in the administration of the police, I must assume they do know where he is. CHAIRPERSON We will proceed with the hearing and direct that he be traced and that he would be given thereafter a transcript of this hearing for his response before we give our decision. Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. We are ready to begin Chairperson, with Mr Buhali. TSHEPO STANLEY BUHALI (affirmed states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Buhali is it correct that you are an incident - you are an applicant in these three incidents? Chairperson the incidents being referred to appear on page 1 being the bombing of the Zola Municipal Offices, the ambush of a police vehicle at Meadowlands in January 1988, that was carrying police personnel and the ambush of a police vehicle at Emdeni, April/May 1988. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct) ambush of a police vehicle in January, what's the first one. MR KOOPEDI 1988 in Meadowlands Chairperson. The last incident will be the ambush of - it's actually a Municipal Police Vehicle at Emdeni. JUDGE DE JAGER When was that? MR KOOPEDI That could be April or May 1988. JUDGE DE JAGER And where did this take place? MR KOOPEDI It took place at Emdeni. Emdeni is in Soweto Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Could they perhaps give us more particulars, where, in which street, or whatever? MR KOOPEDI There are no streets at Emdeni, there are no street names, but they showed the Investigator the place. JUDGE DE JAGER Right, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buhali, I am showing to you page 2 of the bundle of documents. Is this your application form? MR BUHALI Yes, it is. MR KOOPEDI Now on page 7 of the same bundle there is a signature appearing just above the words Deponent, is this your signature? MR BUHALI Yes, it is. MR KOOPEDI Now Mr Buhali, when these incidents occurred, were you a member of a political organisation? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI What organisation? MR BUHALI By then I was a member of the Soweto Youth Congress which was affiliated to the South African Youth Congress, SACO, which was under the banner of UDF and I was also a member of the underground of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI Now would I be correct to say Umkhonto weSizwe is the military wing of the African National Congress? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now did you receive any military training? MR BUHALI Yes I did, inside the country, by then. MR KOOPEDI Who trained you? MR BUHALI I was trained by John Dube. MR KOOPEDI Is that you co-applicant in this matter? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now let us move to the incidents and briefly tell this Honourable Committee about your involvement in the bombing of the Zola Municipal Offices. JUDGE DE JAGER How far did you advance in school? MR KOOPEDI I went up to matric. JUDGE DE JAGER Before 1988? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI ; Would you briefly take this Committee through what happened in the bombing of the Zola Municipal Office? MR BUHALI Okay. At the height of the rent boycott in 1987, the Soweto Municipal authorities began to use eviction tactics to force the community to pay rent. They evicted residents during the week before the 21st of November 1987 in the areas of Zola and Emdeni. Residents became scared and we could not allow that situation to continue unchallenged. I discussed the situation with my Commander, who is John Dube and the Zola Municipal Police Offices was identified as the target. The reason - this was to show support to the community that they are defended. On Friday the 20th November 1987 in the afternoon, myself and Dube went to reconnaissance as the offices. I asked one of the workers there what time do they close the following day, that was a Saturday. We found that they close at around 11 in the morning. Then during our discussion, during the planning, myself with my Commander, we decided that to prevent loss of life of innocent civilians, it would be wise to hit the target after closure. On Saturday the 21st November 1987 we entered the premises of the Zola Municipal Offices just before 11. There were police at the gate who were doing body search, but they were not thorough because we managed to pass with explosives. We managed to pass through. We had four mini limpet mines, Russian made. We used the led plate timing devices which we attached to the limpet mines and we immediately left the place thereafter, then we listened on the radio. ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Ja. For what time did you set the time devices? MR BUHALI Say again. JUDGE DE JAGER ; For what time did you set the timing devices to cause the explosions? MR BUHALI We used the red and led plates because they are identified, they are marked in colours. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but for what time did you set the explosions? MR BUHALI Sir, I cannot say for what time because they are Russian made and they are made in such a way that they respond to the Russian temperature which is cold, but the timing cannot be exact in Africa because it's a bit warmer, but it's about 1 hour. CHAIRPERSON You have referred several times to we, who are you referring to when you say we? MR BUHALI I'm referring to myself and my Commander John Dube. CHAIRPERSON Only the two of you? MR BUHALI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you may proceed. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Was there an explosion at the Zola Municipal offices? MR BUHALI Yes, there was. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if anyone was injured? MR BUHALI I'm not sure. MR KOOPEDI Okay. The next incident where you were involved, is the ambush of a police vehicle at Meadowlands, that should be around January 1988. Can you briefly tell this Committee what your involvement was in this matter? MR BUHALI Okay. The identified target was the Meadowlands Police Station. The reconnaissance took about a week. It was conducted by myself and Dube and Stranger, who was the driver, who is now late. The Commander during the reconnaissance, the Commander decided that the operation be executed on the weekend of that week. During the reconnaissance it was established that the police used to group around the Meadowlands Police Station gate in the evening. For us it was of great political importance that we hit them there in their backyard, at the gate. On the day of the execution, the police, we found that the police were not there as usual. We waited and because we were driving in a stolen car, the Commander decided that we shouldn't wait for too long, he decided that we should move around and then we moved around and then we came back and immediately we saw, when we came back, there was a police van that drove out of the police station. Then the Commander changed the original plan to the police van that was driving out. We followed the van in a BMW until it came to a stop next to a house in Meadowlands. Then we - as soon as it came to a stop then we drove next to it, we opened fire with AK47 rifles. The Commander had a Makarov pistol with him as well. Then we drove away. We went back to the base. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now the last incident. There was an ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Before proceeding to the last incident, who were involved in this attack, you and the Commander and the driver? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Nobody else? MR BUHALI No. JUDGE DE JAGER And the driver was the same one that, in the previous one and who is deceased now? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI There was an ambush on a municipal police vehicle at Emdeni where you were also involved. Could you briefly tell this Committee what your involvement was in this matter? MR BUHALI Our unit was based in and around Emdeni. We had established a network of information gathering. We happened to learn two days earlier that there was a planned raid on rent defaulters by the municipal police. The Commander, that is Dube, decided that the police could not be allowed to intimidate the community with their actions. I then volunteered to be part of the mission, but he advised that I would need a back-up to secure me, because there was no need to - and then because there was no need to use transport for that mission, he said he will join me on the operation. On that day we had two AK47s with us. There were about six municipal vehicles in the area that night. We selected a suitable spot which was the house at the corner, for the ambush. Eventually one police van came into the ambush sector. I fired shots with an AK47 aimed at the front windscreen of the van, but no fire was returned from the van. Then myself and Dube - no, Dube did not fire a single shot, because he was giving me cover in case anything happened. We then retreated safely back to the base. MR KOOPEDI Now, in this incident, do you know if anyone was injured? MR BUHALI I don't know, Sir. MR KOOPEDI Can you remember what time was that? MR BUHALI It must be - it must have been around eleven or twelve at night. MR KOOPEDI At night? MR BUHALI Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now is there any other thing you would want to add to your testimony? Any other thing ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER ...was it round about? Which time of the year? What was the date? MR BUHALI Sir, I don't remember the date exactly. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, approximately? MR BUHALI It must have been around April/May, that is a rough estimation. JUDGE DE JAGER April/May 19? MR BUHALI 88. MR KOOPEDI I was asking you if there is any other thing you would want to add to what you've just said, which took place? Any other thing you'd want this Honourable Committee to know of or hear? MR BUHALI Not at this stage. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief of this applicant. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Richard, any cross-examination? MR RICHARD Yes, Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Sir, the incident where I am involved is the Meadowlands Police Station. Now how many of you conducted the reconnaissance of the police station? MR BUHALI We were three. MR RICHARD Now did all three of you work at the same time or did you go there individually alone? MR BUHALI We worked at the same time. MR RICHARD Now you say the reconnaissance went on for a week, how many hours a day did you spend observing the police station? MR BUHALI We would spend about 30 minutes to one hour roughly. MR RICHARD Each day or every second day? MR BUHALI Each day. MR RICHARD Now, when you chose to reconnoitre the police station, whose decision was it that it be the police? MR BUHALI My Commander's decision. MR RICHARD Did you discuss why? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD What reasons did he give you why it should be the police station? MR BUHALI Because it was a legitimate target. MR RICHARD Did you discuss the question of people getting hurt in crossfire, innocent bystanders? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD And what decisions were made to limit the risk to civilians? MR BUHALI That is why it was, the mission was done at night whereby the movement of civilians is not, there are not many civilians around the area. MR RICHARD Now you say this BMW was a stolen vehicle. Was it the only vehicle that you had available to you? MR BUHALI For the mission, yes. MR RICHARD Did you ever use a kombi? MR BUHALI No. MR RICHARD Because in the papers, the victims' statements speak of a kombi and a BMW. MR BUHALI I don't know where they get the kombi from. MR RICHARD Was there a kombi in your immediate vicinity? MR BUHALI I don't know. I don't remember one, seeing one. MR RICHARD Now, please describe the vehicle that came out of the Meadowlands Police Station. MR BUHALI Describe it, how? MR RICHARD What sort of car, what make was it, what colour was it? You say it was a police van. How do you know it was a police van? MR BUHALI It was a police van because it had police writing and the police badge and it was a van. MR RICHARD My clients say that it was not a marked vehicle. MR BUHALI Then how did we know that it was a police vehicle if it was not marked, how did we know? MR RICHARD Now, I asked you the question, what colour was the vehicle? MR BUHALI Because it was at night I'm not sure if it was white or yellow. MR RICHARD Did it have any other characteristic markings on it to identify it as a police vehicle? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD What were those? MR BUHALI The canopy. MR RICHARD The canopy? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD How does the canopy ...(indistinct) MR BUHALI Police vehicle, the canopy has got a, what do they call it, mesh wire, yes. MR RICHARD In other words, what you're saying is the back part of the vehicle is designed for a purpose. What purpose is it designed for? MR BUHALI I don't know. I don't design vehicles for police. MR RICHARD Well you saw it, I didn't see it. What was it's purpose? MR BUHALI Which purpose, Sir? MR RICHARD You saw a vehicle. MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD And you say it was specially designed, its canopy, for the police, now please tell me exactly for what use it was designed. CHAIRPERSON Would that be in his personal knowledge? Because he said, purpose, though I heard that, but if he say it's got a canopy and mesh wire, if we get the purpose would it serve any purpose for this hearing even to say it should be within his knowledge because his evidence is that they targeted a police vehicle, he has identified the police vehicle, the canopy and the mesh wire, I don't think the purpose will take us any further. JUDGE DE JAGER But isn't it common cause that he attacked a police vehicle, a police van? MR RICHARD In the even the target selection was accurate, it was a police van with policemen in it, but my instructions are that it was not marked. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, suppose it wasn't marked is it really material if we're in agreement that there was an attack, it was an attack on the police vehicles, your clients were injured in this attack, whether it was a yellow or a green or a black vehicle, would that make any difference really? MR RICHARD In the event, one of the occupants of the vehicle, was not a policeman. He is described as an informer. That individual was badly injured and has suffered permanent brain damage and the relevance is that what were police vehicles used for? They were used to transport prisoners, members of the public and police. JUDGE DE JAGER Well as far as I could gather, it's common cause, it's not denied that this private individual, if he was a private individual, was in the van and he was injured. MR RICHARD I don't believe it's in dispute, but I'll leave that point and I'll continue. Now how many of you fired on the police vehicle? MR BUHALI Two. MR RICHARD And who were they? MR BUHALI Myself and my Commander. MR RICHARD Who gave the order to fire? MR BUHALI The Commander. MR RICHARD What firearm did he use? MR BUHALI Say again. MR RICHARD What sort of firearm did he use? MR BUHALI Who? MR RICHARD Your Commander. MR BUHALI An AK47 and he had a pistol with him as well. MR RICHARD Now ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry. So he had an AK and a pistol, or did he only have the pistol? MR BUHALI I was not looking at him at the time because I was firing. With him - what I had it's an AK47, I don't know if he used the pistol as well because there was noise. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, so he had an AK and a pistol, but you wouldn't know which one he used? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER So you had at least two AKs in your possession? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And the driver, was he armed? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER With what? MR BUHALI With an AK. JUDGE DE JAGER With an AK. So you had three AKs in the vehicle or even, I don't know maybe more, but at least three? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And a pistol? MR BUHALI yes. MR RICHARD Now, nonetheless, your Commander did fire at this vehicle, you saw him fire shots at the police vehicle? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD Now before the fire fight started, you were following this vehicle as I understood your evidence-in-chief. MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD After it stopped, did you see people get out of the vehicle? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD Did you wait for them to leave the vehicle before opening fire? MR BUHALI No. MR RICHARD In other words you did not give them an opportunity to leave your target? MR BUHALI What do you mean? JUDGE DE JAGER Weren't they the targets? MR RICHARD What was your target, the vehicle or the people? MR BUHALI The people. MR RICHARD Bear with me, I'm all but complete. ADV BOSMAN You intended to kill these people? MR BUHALI Yes. MR RICHARD Thank you for the indulgence. From the time that the police vehicle left the police station to the time that you shot at the people, did it stop at all? MR BUHALI Did it do what? MR RICHARD Did it - before you attacked the people in the police van while you were following it, did it stop and go again, or did it go directly to the place where the attack happened? How many houses did it go past? MR BUHALI No, from the police station, we attacked it at its very first stop. MR RICHARD I put it to you that your version is incorrect, the way the attack happened was that the vehicle went to a number of places, you came across it and then attacked it, what do you say? MR BUHALI I disagree. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mapoma any questions? MR MAPOMA Just a few, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Regarding the Meadowlands, the police van attack, you said it was of great political importance that you hit them at the gate where they were, what do you mean by that? MR BUHALI For us it was of great political importance because it was going to show that even the Security Forces are vulnerable, even at their own bases. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Judge de Jager? JUDGE DE JAGER Mr Buhali, why didn't you give us full particulars in your application about these incidents? MR BUHALI Which full particulars? JUDGE DE JAGER For instance, let's have a look, 11(b), well first (a) "Was the act etc. committed in the execution of an order or on behalf of or with the approval of a movement?" and you said: "It was done on behalf of and with the approval of ...(indistinct)" "If so, state particulars of such order, or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval." Why didn't you give the name to us? MR BUHALI When the thing of the TRC started, first I was not fully briefed as to what is going to happen considering the TRC and when I made the application I had not met my Commander then because I did not know his address. JUDGE DE JAGER But you've known his name. MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER So you could have given his name. Why didn't you give his name? It's requested here in the papers? MR BUHALI I was going to discuss it with him first. JUDGE DE JAGER Why? Because it's your application, you know you should make a full disclosure and it's asked here specifically and you're an educated person. MR BUHALI That's why I'm saying, Sir, I did not know at the time of my application as to what is going to happen with the TRC, so I didn't want to implicate him. JUDGE DE JAGER When did you apply for amnesty? MR BUHALI I don't remember. JUDGE DE JAGER I see we haven't got the date on this one. It was received 12 December 1996. MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER So that was at that stage I think the last day on which you could apply for amnesty before the date was extended later. MR BUHALI No, I applied before that date. ...(indistinct) Commissioner of Oaths. JUDGE DE JAGER Well the Commissioner of Oaths stated it's been signed before him on the 12th of December. MR MAPOMA Just to assist my colleague, we received this application at our offices on the 15th February 1996, faxed at 11.42. JUDGE DE JAGER That may be from Jo'burg to ... MR MAPOMA To Cape Town. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, but it's been handed in at Jo'burg office ...(indistinct) Yes, but still, could you explain why you didn't name your persons involved with you or the person who has given you the order? MR BUHALI I said, Sir, I did not want to implicate him, because I did not at the time, I did not understand fully what the purpose of the TRC was. JUDGE DE JAGER So at that stage you didn't want to make a full disclosure? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And it's the same as far as paragraph 9(a) is concerned, where it's asked "The names of any other persons involved." MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER And when did you decide to make a full disclosure? MR BUHALI It was later explained to me by some of our comrades as to what is the purpose exactly of the TRC and I received a letter from Cape Town that I should give further details. JUDGE DE JAGER Well the trouble is I don't see that you've responded to that letter and I don't even see the letter in the bundle here, but you say you received a letter? MR BUHALI Yes, I responded. JUDGE DE JAGER And you responded to it? MR BUHALI Yes, I faxed it. JUDGE DE JAGER Is there any explanation Mr Mapoma why it's not in the bundle? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, I have no explanation, all I have with me is the correspondence file, that is our working file, which was used by our evidence analyst, Mr Tofile and that letter is not here, so I can't offer an explanation. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja. Thank you. Can you perhaps indicate when you sent this letter, or replied to the letter? When did you receive it and when did you reply? MR BUHALI I don't remember when I replied, but I replied. JUDGE DE JAGER Was it during this year? MR BUHALI No, maybe 97 or 98, somewhere there. JUDGE DE JAGER Maybe there could have been a confusion because of your change of name, your surname. MR BUHALI No, Sir, because in that fax that I faxed I even mentioned that my surname has changed from Mshibe to Buhali, that's why it is reflected on the bundle. JUDGE DE JAGER I see. Right, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Adv Bosman. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Mr Buhali, in the attack on the Zolo police offices, what was your intention? Was it also to kill the policemen at the police offices, or was it simply to cause damage to it? MR BUHALI Yes, it was to cause damage to the infrastructure. ADV BOSMAN So your application here does not relate to any attempted murder if there were people there, it was not your intention to kill any of them? MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN The limpet mines, I take it, were not legally in your possession so are you also applying for the unlawful possession of explosives, which is a crime which you, according to my reading of your evidence, committed. MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN Then in so far as the attack on the Meadowlands Police Station is concerned, the intention there was you said that you fired shots at the front windscreen - no wait a minute, I have the wrong paragraph, just one moment. It was Emdeni. What was your intention there, was it simply to damage the vehicle or ... MR BUHALI Where? ADV BOSMAN Meadowlands. Did you intend to damage the vehicle, or did you intend to kill? MR BUHALI I did not say I fired at the front windscreen at Meadowlands. CHAIRPERSON No, no where my colleague has corrected herself, now she is speaking of Meadowlands. MR BUHALI Okay. ADV BOSMAN In the three - let's just take the three incidents. In the first incident, your intention was to kill. MR BUHALI The first one? ADV BOSMAN Yes. MR BUHALI The first one ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN the intention was - I'm sorry, I've got myself confused here. The first one was Zolo police offices ...(intervention) MR BUHALI Municipal offices. ADV BOSMAN Municipal offices. Your intention was to cause damage and it was related to the whole boycott, rent boycott, you wanted to show your disapproval of that. MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN The next incident was at Meadowlands Police Station. MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN And there your intention, when they drove out in the vehicle, your intention was to kill? MR BUHALI Was to kill the personnel. ADV BOSMAN Right. And at Emdeni? MR BUHALI To kill the personnel. ADV BOSMAN The intention was to kill. And in all three incidents, you were in possession of either, illegally in possession of explosives or of the firearms which you had enumerated? MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN And they were also illegal firearms? MR BUHALI Yes. ADV BOSMAN Right. Thank you very much. Thank you Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER In the last, the Emdeni one, did you only fire one shot? MR BUHALI No, several. JUDGE DE JAGER Several? MR BUHALI Ja. JUDGE DE JAGER Automatic? MR BUHALI Automatic fire, yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes. And the vehicle didn't stop? It didn't come to a stop? MR BUHALI It passed, but it came to a stop some few metres away. JUDGE DE JAGER In passing you, could you see whether you in fact hit the windscreen? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Do you think it's probable, or improbable that a people or a person would have been injured or even killed? MR BUHALI I think so, it's probable. JUDGE DE JAGER You haven't seen anything in the newspapers about it at the time? MR BUHALI Then when we bought the newspaper, the newspaper report said six people were in hospital, the police. JUDGE DE JAGER Six police were in hospital? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER You don't know where those police were stationed? MR BUHALI I don't know Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER Did they report about any person dying in that incident? MR BUHALI No, the newspaper did not report of the death. JUDGE DE JAGER You've seen, I think it's page 33 in the bundle, a newspaper report relating to the 14th of December, it seems, 1987, was handed to the Amnesty representative by your co-applicant where it was stated that a few police people were killed there. This is not the incident you're referring to? MR BUHALI No, it's not. JUDGE DE JAGER You had no further knowledge of this incident, never heard anything further about it? MR BUHALI Which one? JUDGE DE JAGER This Emdeni incident? If I could refer ...(indistinct) MR BUHALI No, I have no further knowledge. JUDGE DE JAGER You don't know whether the injured people in hospital survived, or didn't survive? MR BUHALI I don't know, Sir. JUDGE DE JAGER This vehicle that you shot at, was it a kombi, or what kind of vehicle was it? MR BUHALI It was a van. JUDGE DE JAGER A van. MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER So some people must have been sitting at the back, if six people were injured? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Was it also a canopy on? MR BUHALI Yes, it had a canopy. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja. On passing you, did you, while it was passing you, did you continue shooting? MR BUHALI No. JUDGE DE JAGER And you didn't - you saw it stopping and then you sort of fled? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi, anything arising from the questions from the Panel? MR KOOPEDI Nothing arising, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, anything arising? MR RICHARD Nothing further. NO QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson, about the disclosure. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Is it correct that you did meet with the Investigator of the TRC after you had already applied for amnesty? MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA And you had interviews with him regarding this incident? MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA Did you tell him that your Commander was Mr Dube? MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA When you were asked before you said in your application for amnesty you did not mention Dube because you did not meet with him and you were not aware whether he had applied for amnesty of not. MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA Now when you had this interview with the TRC Investigator, had you already met with Mr Dube? MR BUHALI Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Was this interview on the 17th of May this year, about a month or two ago, after the postponement of the previous hearing? MR BUHALI I'm not sure if that is - there are other reports before that. MR MAPOMA When exactly did you meet with the Investigator of the TRC? JUDGE DE JAGER It must have been on the 22nd of April. MR BUHALI I think it's last year, last year, early, I don't remember. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, it must be 22nd of April, at least, 1991, because then you pointed out certain things. MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA Now at that time when you were discussing, when you were interviewed by the Investigator, you said you had already met with Dube. MR BUHALI Yes. MR MAPOMA And had he confirmed with you as to whether he has applied for amnesty or not in respect of those incidents? MR BUHALI He said to me, I do not remember writing them, mentioning them down, but in his application he indicated that he is applying for other incidents that he might not remember because as a Commander he was involved in many incidents because he had several units in the Witwatersrand area. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Buhali. MR KOOPEDI That is indeed his application Chairperson, we intend calling no further witnesses, or people to give evidence. With the Committee's permission, may I call the second applicant, Mr Dube? MR RICHARD At this juncture Chairperson, ... CHAIRPERSON May I just complete this one? I'll give you an opportunity. Mr Buhali thank you, that concludes your evidence, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED