amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-18 PRETORIA 2 GOODLUCK B MPUNGOSE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54351&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200718pt.htm GOODLUCK B MPUNGOSE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Thank you. Mr Mpungose, you have heard the evidence of the two applicants applying for amnesty in respect of your detention in Lusaka and Angola from 1987 until 1991? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE I want you to confirm that you are not opposing their application for amnesty as such but that you want to place on record that you were wrongfully accused of being a security agent and as such your detention was not - they had no grounds to detain you but you do not oppose their application? CHAIRPERSON As I understand it and I can be confused, is certainly that the second applicant was not asking for amnesty for the detention, he was asking for amnesty for taking part in the interrogation? That is so, isn't it? MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so, Chairperson. MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Chairperson. The two applicants who appeared before this Commission, you have heard what they said their role was, that is to interrogate you but you were further detained by people who did not appear before this Commission. Can you recall that? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE And the basis upon which they interrogated you was because they thought that they had received information that being an ANC person on the other hand you were helping the police to - you were giving the police information that led to the arrest of MK cadres. You heard this evidence? MR MPUNGOSE Yes I heard that evidence. MS MAKHUBELE Mr Mpungose, you were a police officer until you, due to ill health in 1978, you left the service? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE When did you join the ANC or become involved in ANC underground activities? MR MPUNGOSE In 1983. MS MAKHUBELE Who recruited you? MR MPUNGOSE Mrs Hlahla from Lamontville. MS MAKHUBELE What was your role in the organisation? MR MPUNGOSE They wanted herbs so that they can evade the police when they are sought. MS MAKHUBELE You provided that service? MR MPUNGOSE That is indeed so. MS MAKHUBELE Other than that were you involved in any ANC underground activities, say helping the ANC cadres in any way? MR MPUNGOSE At the time I was not involved with the ANC as such except for helping them as I explained and they were not comfortable about the fact that I knew some members personally. MS MAKHUBELE But did you at any stage before you were detained in Lusaka get involved in their activities other than the provision of muti? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE What kind of help did you give to them? MR MPUNGOSE They would use me as a courier to take money to the guerrillas inside the country and transport ID's and the people that I was giving these things to did not have any problem. MS MAKHUBELE Let's then now come to events that led to your interrogation and detention in Lusaka in Angola. How did you end up in Lusaka? MR MPUNGOSE Bafana Duma who was in Zimbabwe wrote a letter to me and I went to him, I think it was on the 31st May and he told me that he wanted herbs but he said one person who wanted me urgently was Zuma in Lusaka. When I left I was leaving for Zimbabwe and with an intention of coming back home. MS MAKHUBELE Yes and he said Zuma wanted you, which Zuma? Did he mention the Zuma that wanted you? MR MPUNGOSE Jacob Zuma. MS MAKHUBELE Then you left for Lusaka straight from Zimbabwe. Can you recall the dates? MR MPUNGOSE I left Zimbabwe on the 19th May and I headed for Lusaka. MS MAKHUBELE Did you see Zuma in Lusaka? JUDGE DE JAGER Is it 19 May 1987? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Did you get to see Jacob Zuma when you arrived in Lusaka? MR MPUNGOSE I was told that he had gone overseas and I would have to wait for him. MS MAKHUBELE But did you ultimately see and talk to him? MR MPUNGOSE Indeed so. MS MAKHUBELE After how long? MR MPUNGOSE I arrived on the 19th and I saw him I think it could have been on the 2nd June. MS MAKHUBELE Did he tell you what he wanted from you? MR MPUNGOSE He did not but he said there are certain things that he wanted me to sort out with the boys and he said after sorting these matters out with the boys I would then be given money to go back home and I indicated that I had boys or guerrillas who would come to my place. I didn't have money to take care of these people. MS MAKHUBELE At what stage did you meet the applicants, Ndaba and Dieta? MR MPUNGOSE They came on the 20th and they said Zuma was not around and I would have to write down my biography so that whilst we were waiting for Zuma they should know exactly who I am. CHAIRPERSON 20th of what? MR MPUNGOSE The 20th May. MS MAKHUBELE So whilst waiting for Zuma you were instructed to write your biography. Did they tell you what the biography was all about? MR MPUNGOSE They didn't say what it was for except to say they wanted to know me very well because they wanted to ensure they are safe in my presence. MS MAKHUBELE We heard evidence yesterday to the effect that you were ultimately assaulted. Can you proceed to tell us when and the circumstances thereof? MR MPUNGOSE They rejected my biography and they rejected the second and the third one and Zuma came and said I would be moved to another house because it was frequented by people from home. I was taken to another house where I was forced to admit to things that I didn't know anything about. MS MAKHUBELE Did you speak to Zuma in their presence? MR MPUNGOSE They were not present. MS MAKHUBELE Did it appear to you that they were aware of what you had spoken with Zuma? MR MPUNGOSE I concluded that they knew because he said he was going to send them to come and fetch me. They came in a ...(indistinct) and they brought me to the place and started assaulting me. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, did Zuma come to you and say you were going to be moved to another house and that he would send people to move you and these people who now asked for amnesty came and fetched you, took you to the other house and started assaulting you? Is that what happened? MR MPUNGOSE Exactly. MS MAKHUBELE Did you see Zuma again? MR MPUNGOSE I never saw him again until at the camps when he came to see us. MS MAKHUBELE When you were moved to this house by you say the people, can you recall how many people there were? MR MPUNGOSE There were four of them. MS MAKHUBELE Their names? MR MPUNGOSE Sphinx, Tim Williams, Dieta as well as Piliso. MS MAKHUBELE Who assaulted you amongst these four? MR MPUNGOSE All of them. MS MAKHUBELE How many times? MR MPUNGOSE I was beaten twice in this particular house, that's when the doctor was brought in and it was said I should not tell him I was assaulted, instead I should tell him that I got injured in the motor vehicle accident and they came back. They wouldn't allow him to see me because I was so sick. It was an Indian doctor. Instead they took medicine from him. He too was a member of the ANC. MS MAKHUBELE How were they assaulting you? MR MPUNGOSE They would hit me with their bare fists and handles of some hoe and all assortment of things as well as sjamboks. MS MAKHUBELE Were you assaulted in any other manner? MR MPUNGOSE They used to burn me with candle wax or candles and they would pull me with my beard and they would spit on me. There's only one person who was doing that and the others would call him to order. MS MAKHUBELE Who was that? MR MPUNGOSE This one calling them to order and him too. MS MAKHUBELE When you say this one, who are you referring to? MR MPUNGOSE Dieta. Dieta would call them to order and Tim would call them to order too. MS MAKHUBELE So the people ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER But who was burning you? MR MPUNGOSE Sphinx. MS MAKHUBELE Sphinx demonstrated to the Committee yesterday the manner in which he assaulted you. Was that one of the other way on which you were assaulted? MR MPUNGOSE Yes it was one of the many ways which I was assaulted and they would also hang me upside down in a tree and assault me and they would make me sit at the corner of a house and they would hit me with a handle of something and they would hit me on the bottom of my feet and at the back. I still have some scars as proof of this. I can prove us. On the chest I also have a mark where I was hit with a knopkierie. MS MAKHUBELE We also heard evidence that you were assaulted at Chongele Farm, is this correct? MR MPUNGOSE That was for the third occasion, that's where I was hanging in a tree upside down and heavily assaulted and that's when they said I should run away. I was given food and Sphinx kicked the food and it splat all over. Sphinx too didn't have his meal that day. MS MAKHUBELE How many people assaulted you at Chongele Farm? MR MPUNGOSE There were four of them. Tim went back to get some food and he continued assaulting me with the others but I must say it was Tim Williams who said they should leave me at 4 o'clock. They said they had brought me to the place because I was resisting, I did not want to talk and the ANC, I was told, had instructed that I should be killed but the problem is that they were asking me about a number which I didn't know anything about. Apparently this was a number connected to the police. I appealed to them saying they should give me the number, I will admit if they know how it is written. The number seemed to be the bone of contention. MS MAKHUBELE Mr Mpungose, can you, when I ask you a question, just try to answer the question that I've asked you because now you are saying so many things and the Committee must get this picture clearly so just assist me by just answering one question. Will you? MR MPUNGOSE Thank you. MS MAKHUBELE I was still asking you the number of days you were assaulted. You said two times in the house, the third time was at Chongele Farm. Can you tell us about the fourth incident? MR MPUNGOSE That was in Angola, that's where Sphinx upon arrival with me, the beating continued. That was the last time I saw him. JUDGE DE JAGER Could we finish the farm incident now? At one time of the day did they take you to the farm? When did you come back? How long have you been staying on the farm? What assaults took place on the farm? Who were present? Tell us all the details about what happened on the farm now, so that we could finish that incident. MR MPUNGOSE It was on the 16th June 1997. They took me at 7 in the evening to this place where they assaulted me upon arrival. I was beaten until 4 the following morning. JUDGE DE JAGER Okay. Could you go slowly so that we could write down what you're saying and don't rush it so that we could clearly get the picture. You went to the farm on the 16th June at 7 o'clock in the morning or the evening? MR MPUNGOSE In the evening. MS MAKHUBELE And you said that people that took you there were the four of them, that's Sphinx, Dieta, Piliso and Tim Williams? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Did they all assault you? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE How? MR MPUNGOSE They were sjamboking me and they were also using sticks and knopkieries as well as a fan belt. MS MAKHUBELE You heard the evidence yesterday that Sphinx did not take part in the assault, that he only took you to the farm and left you there. What do you say to this? MR MPUNGOSE That is not correct. CHAIRPERSON Sphinx? MS MAKHUBELE Sorry, Tim Williams. CHAIRPERSON Tim Williams wasn't it? MS MAKHUBELE Yes sorry, pardon me. That Tim Williams only left you in the farm, he didn't stay, he didn't take part in the assault. What do you say? MR MPUNGOSE They are not telling the truth. MS MAKHUBELE What time did the assault at the farm end? MR MPUNGOSE It went on until four in the morning. CHAIRPERSON Now you've told us in answer to my colleague that they assaulted you with sjamboks, sticks, knopkieries and a fan belt? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Earlier you told us that they tied you upside down in a tree at the farm? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was that on this night? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Were you injured on this occasion? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE Is this day occasion in which a doctor was called? MR MPUNGOSE No, not on this occasion. MS MAKHUBELE The last incident, the fourth, when did it happen? MR MPUNGOSE This happened in Angola. MS MAKHUBELE Do you recall the date? MR MPUNGOSE I cannot recall the date very well. MS MAKHUBELE Who assaulted you? MR MPUNGOSE Sphinx himself. MS MAKHUBELE And how did he assault you? MR MPUNGOSE He was hitting me with his bare fists, kicking me and pulling me by my beard and spitting on me, on the face. MS MAKHUBELE Did he tell you why he was assaulting you? MR MPUNGOSE They were accusing me of being a police spy. JUDGE DE JAGER Was that in the presence of other people after he'd handed you over, before he handed you over? Who was present, who took part and who did what? MR MPUNGOSE There was one man who was called Austin as well as others whose identities I didn't know. MS MAKHUBELE Where were the others with whom he assaulted you in the previous three occasions. That's Tim Williams, Dieta and Piliso? MR MPUNGOSE They remained behind in Lusaka, they didn't come to Angola. MS MAKHUBELE So you only went to Angola with Sphinx. MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Were you told why you were then removed from Lusaka to Angola? MR MPUNGOSE They said I was being taken for Umkhonto weSizwe training. MS MAKHUBELE Let's now come to the allegations that you were a police agent or a spy. You heard evidence yesterday that they had information about you and furthermore, when you got to Lusaka they searched you and they found certain articles in your possession that confirmed their suspicions, do you recall this? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE Were the articles found in your possession? MR MPUNGOSE Not on my person and they did not show me anything. They actually searched my case. I remember the IFP membership card, I cannot testify about the other things which they claimed to have found. One other thing that they found in the bag was a small container, polish container which I was going to use for my herbs. MS MAKHUBELE Is that the polish container which apparently belonged to Joe Nhlanhla's car? MR MPUNGOSE I don't even know who it belonged to, I was going to wash it very nicely and use it for my medicine. MS MAKHUBELE Where did you get it? MR MPUNGOSE I was thrown away after it had been used. MS MAKHUBELE You found it in Lusaka or in South Africa? MR MPUNGOSE It was a bottle that had been thrown away in Lusaka, I took it not knowing who it belonged to or who it had belonged to. It was a throw away. MS MAKHUBELE They also said you were found in possession of registration numbers of the cars belonging to Jeli and Nhlanhla. Do you know anything about this? MR MPUNGOSE I know nothing to that effect and nothing was shown to me, claiming to have been found on my person. I was removed from the room whilst the searching was going on. MS MAKHUBELE You say the only thing you are aware of is the IFP card? MR MPUNGOSE Yes and that was not a secret. MS MAKHUBELE Why do you say it's not a secret, can you tell us? MR MPUNGOSE When I obtained the membership card we had discussed this with the people with whom I was involved. I indicated that this was necessary for my protection. MS MAKHUBELE So when you travelled with this card, IFP card to Lusaka, you saw no need to hide it because the ANC people you were working with were aware of the card? MR MPUNGOSE Correct. MS MAKHUBELE Did you give this explanation to say the applicants, Ndaba and Dieta, when they searched you and found the card? MR MPUNGOSE I did explain but they pretended to understand but it transpired later that they were not listening. MS MAKHUBELE Were you afforded an opportunity to explain everything or the allegations that had against you were discussed in all the times that you were held in Lusaka and Angola? MR MPUNGOSE Never afforded such an opportunity. You see, was regarded as a person who was resisting, I was accused of refusing to talk. MS MAKHUBELE It was also said that you confessed that a certain Botha was your handler. Do you know anything about this? MR MPUNGOSE The Botha that I was talking about was a station commander at the station where I was based so that I was compelled to admit that he was my handler, yet he was my station commander. CHAIRPERSON What station was this? MR MPUNGOSE Berea Police Station in Durban. MS MAKHUBELE The other allegation against you is that you helped MK cadres to obtain illegal documents and then you later gave information to the police causing them to be arrested. What can you say about this? MR MPUNGOSE I was compelled, I was beaten up into saying exactly that. Everything that I said which did not involve the police was not accepted and I had to admit to everything that they were saying about me because I was trying to avoid the beating. MS MAKHUBELE But do you know of any person you had helped to obtain ID documents illegally who was later arrested? MR MPUNGOSE Not a single one who was ultimately arrested. Everyone whom I was working with back home was safe to the time when I left. MS MAKHUBELE Do you recall their names? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you providing false documents for people? MR MPUNGOSE I was requested to go to Swaziland to take these documents and bring them home to these people. MS MAKHUBELE But none of those persons was arrested, as far as you know? MR MPUNGOSE None was arrested. MS MAKHUBELE You wanted to tell me their names before the Chairperson interrupted you? MR MPUNGOSE One of them is Benjamin and the other one is Bongani. MS MAKHUBELE After you were transferred to Angola, did you see the applicants again? MR MPUNGOSE I never saw them and I also saw Sphinx for the last time in Angola. That's where I was held in a military prison. MS MAKHUBELE After that were you assaulted by any other person during the period of your detention? MR MPUNGOSE I was beaten up when I was at the Quatro camps. MS MAKHUBELE Do you know who assaulted you? MR MPUNGOSE I remember them. MS MAKHUBELE Who are they? MR MPUNGOSE Griffiths, Austin, Hamba and one other person whose name was Mellow Yellow. Those were their tribal names and there were numerous of them, I cannot enumerate them all. At some time I'll be beaten up by at least 30 people. MS MAKHUBELE What was the nature of the assaults there at Quatro camp? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, before you go on. Was this Austin the same man as the one who was present when you were beaten for the fourth time? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Alright, thank you. MS MAKHUBELE How were they assaulting you at Quatro? MR MPUNGOSE They were lashing me with ropes and canes as well as coffee sticks and they would slap me and hit me with their bare fists and they would make me blow my cheeks and they would hit me on the cheeks and they would kick me. MR SIBANYONI What are coffee sticks? MR MPUNGOSE They are these trees wherein they poured these coffees. These are the sticks that they were using to assault me with. MR SIBANYONI Yes, thank you. JUDGE DE JAGER Could you kindly describe that because I see my colleague also didn't hear of it before? What does it look like, how long is it, how big is it? Is it a hollow stick? What is it? MR MPUNGOSE It's a stick, sometimes it would be very big or small. You would go there and cut such a stick yourself and bring it back and they would say it's not appropriate and you would have to go back and cut a bigger one and bring it back and they would use it to assault you with. JUDGE DE JAGER Did the stick come from a coffee tree? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Do you recall the number of times you were assaulted at Quatro? MR MPUNGOSE The assault was such that you would sigh with relief when the day goes by without any assault. MS MAKHUBELE So it's a period of - you were - before I get there, when were you transferred to Angola. Do you recall the date? MR MPUNGOSE It was in March 1989. MS MAKHUBELE Are you certain about the date or you cannot recall because according to their evidence you arrived in Lusaka in May of 1987? MR MPUNGOSE Correct. MS MAKHUBELE How long were you in the company of Tim Williams and his group? MR MPUNGOSE About a month. MS MAKHUBELE So let's say you were transferred to Angola in June of 1987? MR MPUNGOSE In August 15, in '87. MS MAKHUBELE So from August of 1987 to the time you were released, which is when? MR MPUNGOSE I was released in 1980, it could have been September. MS MAKHUBELE When were you released from Quatro? MR MPUNGOSE I was not released from Qrom Quatro, there came a time when Quatro had to be demolished because there was now Unita which was fighting the Angolan Government and the camp was demolished and we had to go to Luanda from March 1989. After which we went to Uganda and others were taken to some other places. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, would you repeat that? You had to go to where in March 1989? MR MPUNGOSE We went to Uganda where we were held in the prison. CHAIRPERSON So you weren't transferred to Quatro in March 1989, you were transferred from Quatro in March '89? MR MPUNGOSE I was transferred to Quatro on the 22nd October 1987. MS MAKHUBELE Then from Quatro, which other facility were you taken to? When? MR MPUNGOSE I was removed from Quatro on the 23rd December and I was taken to Angola because Quatro was now going to be demolished. JUDGE DE JAGER To get this picture clear here, you were arrested in May 1987, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER You were taken to the farm on the 16th June 1987? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Then Sphinx took you to Angola on the 17th October - on the 22nd October? MR MPUNGOSE On the 15th July I was taken to Angola. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry on the 15th? MR MPUNGOSE On the 15th July I was taken to Angola. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you say 15th August a short while ago? MR MPUNGOSE No, of July. CHAIRPERSON Of July? MR MPUNGOSE Yes, I was taken to Angola by Sphinx. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes? MR MPUNGOSE Thence I was taken to the Angola Military Prison, that's where I was fetched when Sphinx came to assault me. JUDGE DE JAGER You weren't taken to Quatro straight from Zambia? MR MPUNGOSE No. JUDGE DE JAGER So you first went to Angola to the military prison on the 15th July? MR MPUNGOSE Correct. JUDGE DE JAGER And were you then transferred from there to Quatro? MR MPUNGOSE That's right. JUDGE DE JAGER And was that on the 17th or the 22nd October? MR MPUNGOSE Correct. JUDGE DE JAGER And you stayed in Quatro until it was demolished? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER During March 1989, is that right? MR MPUNGOSE I left Quatro in December, on the 23rd December. We left for Angola. In 1988. JUDGE DE JAGER You left Quatro on 20 what of December 1988? What's the date? MR MPUNGOSE On the 23rd December. JUDGE DE JAGER 1988 and then you went to? MR MPUNGOSE 1989 March, we were transferred to Uganda. JUDGE DE JAGER And how long did you stay in Uganda? MR MPUNGOSE I stayed there up until 1990. JUDGE DE JAGER And from there? MR MPUNGOSE In 1990 - in 1989 in September I was released. JUDGE DE JAGER Sorry, I don't get it now. You're in Uganda now from March 1989, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE Yes, in September 1989 I was released but this was not clear because I was taken to the camp of ANC soldiers and I was always imprisoned because I would do their laundry daily. I was doing the laundry for the whole camp on a daily basis. MS MAKHUBELE Chairperson, if I may assist Mr Mpungose with the dates? You have written a statement some time ago when maybe all this was still fresh in your memory. Can you just look here to try to clarify the dates as to when, what happened, Mr Mpungose? This is your statement. If you can just read from here to try to give the Committee the exact dates as to what happened when? JUDGE DE JAGER You could read it to us, if you could refresh your memory. It's not that important but we want to have a full picture, it's not so important, the exact day and minute of the hour. MR MPUNGOSE On the 23rd December 1988 Quatro Camp was evacuated and the prisoners were taken to a place called Nomkala in Luanda in Angola. This was a warehouse where we were treated somewhat better than in Quatro prison camp. During March 1989 I was taken to Uganda to where I was further detained. Here the circumstances were somewhat better than Quatro. On the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, was this Bokoloto Prison? MR MPUNGOSE We didn't know the name of the prison because we were not allowed to know the place where we were kept. CHAIRPERSON Well, I'm just reading from the report, the evidence that was given to them. They write a report on you on page 80 where they give that name of the prison. Second to last paragraph. MR MPUNGOSE On the 21st September 1990, I was partially released from detention and brought to Kampala security camp of the ANC. I stayed there at the place called Buyga and I was given a hard duty of doing washing and ironing for everyone in the security camp. I stayed there for seven months and on the 20th day of April 1991, I was taken to Tanzania in Morogoro in the camp of the ANC called Dekawa via Dar-es-Salaam, East Africa. MS MAKHUBELE So from 1987 to 1991 you were moved from one facility to another and assaulted and as you said, you can't recall the number of days but it would be almost on a daily basis? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE The report ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, can I just clear up something else? We have heard evidence already about what happened to you. Was that on the - in April, the 20th April 1991 where you told us you were taken to Tanzania. Is that when you were appointed head of the religious department at the camp? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE Then you were no longer assaulted? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE What were your duties as head of that religious department? MR MPUNGOSE I had to educate people with the Bible. That used to be a problem because even when people who would let their children come to attend the lecture, we would go and visit places to sing there. MS MAKHUBELE When were you finally released from detention? MR MPUNGOSE I can say when I was finally released, leaving for Tanzania, that was my final release although I would be still in other places but I can say I was finally released when I got home on the 13th February 1992. That's when I felt my freedom, when I was back in South Africa. MS MAKHUBELE Mr Mpungose, so you gave evidence at the Matsonyuane Commission, is this correct? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MS MAKHUBELE The report that's often referred to here, that's based on what was said in that Commission. Were you told of the findings of that report, of that Commission? MR MPUNGOSE No one paid any attention because nothing happened after the Matsonyuane Commission. I was not told anything. MS MAKHUBELE During consultation I informed you what the Commission has found, that amongst other things that security department, the people who interrogated you or detained you or arrested you, that had reasonable suspicions. That is to say that they had reasonable grounds to believe that you were a security agent. What is your comment to this? MR MPUNGOSE I think that because the Commission was a result, a product of the ANC, they were not doing anything properly and I was never given a chance to listen to the people giving testimony and after my testimony I showed them marks on my body and then I left and I was never told about anything that took place at the commission. I'm hearing their testimony here for the first time today in this amnesty commission. MS MAKHUBELE The commission also recommends that the ANC should apologise to you. Has this been done? MR MPUNGOSE No, nothing like that ever happened and I didn't even know that they were told to apologise to me. MS MAKHUBELE You also told that commission what the damages you suffered in respect of property as well as bodily injuries and on page 81 of the bundle before us, can I just confirm that if this is what you told them or if there is any more damages you suffered which are not indicated here, that you lost medicine in the amount of R5200, a briefcase worth R100, shoes, trousers, two shirts and a bag valued at R195, a watch and a wedding ring valued at R600, R1800 Zimbabwean Dollars and radio tape player worth R300. Is this correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE You also say that you borrowed money to pay your debt which money amounted to R2046, is this correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MS MAKHUBELE And ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER You've given evidence before the Human Rights Commission, I believe? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. JUDGE DE JAGER Because we're not dealing with the damages and reparation but if we would grant amnesty to applicants we will recommend in any event that victims should be considered in terms of the Act and be dealt with but this Committee is not dealing with damages at all. MS MAKHUBELE Thank you. And finally, do you - what is your opinion to the applicants' contention that they had reasonable grounds to interrogate you and that it was necessary for them to assault you in order to obtain the information that they wanted from you as a final resort because you would make a confession and further retract it? MR MPUNGOSE If I do not forgive them, that is not going to benefit me anything. As a religious leader I even mentioned there while they were still assaulting that God should pardon them because they didn't know what they were doing. I'm the one who knew well about my activities. I cannot say that I'm not forgiving them. If the Commission feels it's the right thing to do they can pardon them but I cannot say that they shouldn't be granted amnesty. I am a religious person, I'm supposed to forgive the others because to carry on with such grudges, I'm not going to benefit anything. CHAIRPERSON You weren't asked about grudges because what we understand from your evidence is that these people have not been telling the truth, that it is not a question of you making concessions and then withdrawing them. That they assaulted you to get you to say what they wanted? Then what is the position? MR MPUNGOSE In their testimony they are not telling the truth because even what they had mentioned during the Matsonyuane Commission, they are totally denying that they are bringing new information. In whatever they are doing it's not going to take me anywhere, whether they tell the truth or not, it's not going to take me anywhere, I'm not going to benefit anything. What I can say so that when I die I mustn't die with a grudge against a certain person. I don't want to grudge any person who is going to disturb me. MS MAKHUBELE Thank you, that's the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, the only thing that - you've heard them yesterday telling us what they did to you? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Did they tell us the truth or did they hide something, things that they didn't tell us about? They deny, for instance, that they hung you up a tree. What's the truth there? MR MPUNGOSE They were not telling the truth. There are so many things that they have omitted that I cannot say that they've assaulted me for so many times. They are not telling the truth at all and even when they say that they only assaulted me once at Chongele, that is not true. But I cannot force them to admit things to admit that they're not prepared to admit. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chair-person. Mr Mpungose, you say you were moved from Quatro. The correct name, Chairperson, is Camp 32. You were moved from Camp 32 to Angola, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Was Camp 32 not in Angola? MR MPUNGOSE Yes it was in Angola. We are talking about Luanda in Angola. I was taken from Camp 32 to Luanda. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now let's start at the end. You were taken to Uganda and - no, in fact to Tanzania, at Dagawa, you said and this is where you were made a religious head. Did you have any other responsibilities? MR MPUNGOSE Yes, there were other duties. I was working as the head of the religious department but I would visit other places with a certain group that was involved in music. MR KOOPEDI Were you not made a commissar at this camp? MR MPUNGOSE No. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now you say the Matsonyuane Commission, after you gave evidence you say you left and then did not get to hear the evidence of the people who gave evidence there and you also say - is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI You also say that after that commission, no one came to you, no one told you anything about the report, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MR KOOPEDI But did you have any occasion to get the report of that commission or the transcripts thereof to read, what was said there after you had left? MR MPUNGOSE No. MR KOOPEDI Now how are you able to tell this Honourable Committee that the applicants have changed what they said in the Matsonyuane Commission because in your own admission you don't know what they said? MR MPUNGOSE I got that from my legal representative that this was the findings and I was shocked to hear that. MR KOOPEDI Now in Uganda you say that you were at a camp where you did washing and ironing for all the soldiers there. How many soldiers were there? MR MPUNGOSE I cannot say but some soldiers would come and go to the other camps. I cannot say for sure how many were there but there were many of them. MR KOOPEDI At a given time what average would you put, would there be fifty soldiers, would there be five hundred soldiers or five thousand soldiers? MR MPUNGOSE I can say there were twenty, more or less. MR KOOPEDI The fact that you had to do their washing and ironing on a daily basis, why did you not tell this to the Matsonyuane Commission? Had you forgotten? MR MPUNGOSE What was discussed there was only about assaults when I came. Even if I made mention of that but there I was taken as a person who was released but I later realised that I wasn't released because I had duties that I had perform for the whole camp. MR KOOPEDI I don't understand the answer. Why did you not tell the Matsonyuane Commission that amongst the things that you told them that at this place one of the things you were made to do was to do washing for an entire camp, washing and ironing on a daily basis for an entire camp? MR MPUNGOSE When one is testifying verbally it's not always that you can mention everything. You can omit some of the things by mistake and this is what happened and even the people who are there cannot dispute that because those are the people that I was doing their washing. MR KOOPEDI Okay. The Zuma story. You say that when you were in Lusaka, shortly after you had arrived, some days after you had arrived, Jacob Zuma came to you, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE No, he didn't come immediately. I was told that he was overseas. He came at some stage to talk to me and then he came for the second time to tell me that I was being transferred to a certain place. After that I did not see him. MR KOOPEDI Now that part of the story, why did you not tell it to the Matsonyuane Commission also? Was it another mistake? MR MPUNGOSE It's not always possible to mention everything. Even here on this forum I didn't mention anything about Zwele Mtungu who is alleged to have been cooking for me. He would do that only once a week so it's not possible to utter everything and sometimes some of the issues would appear as if they're not important. Even there, Zuma never assaulted me and never uttered any bad words that was not important. What was more important was the fact that I was assaulted. MR KOOPEDI What I want to find out is that - and perhaps you can assist me with this. Since the Matsonyuane Commission more than seven years has - no, almost seven years has passed. I would imagine that your recollection of things would have been sharper then than now but what I find strange is that there are new things that you are telling at this stage and I need to understand why now, why do you remember these things if you had forgotten them. JUDGE DE JAGER Have you got a verbatim or transcription of what he told the commission? Is it available somewhere? MR KOOPEDI I tried to find it Chairperson and I don't know if it is available. JUDGE DE JAGER Because from the report itself it's almost a summary, it's not referring exactly to who said what as evidence? MR KOOPEDI Well that is indeed so, Chairperson. However, I know what the applicants said in the Matsonyuane Commission, I represented the applicants that are before you in that commission and I rely on my memory to ask him these things and as you will see from his responses, he doesn't say I did say that, because he didn't. CHAIRPERSON Surely the ANC must have a copy of this available of the evidence that was led at their commission? MR KOOPEDI Like I said, Chairperson, I tried to find it but I didn't get it. I've gone to the council who were involved in the matter, I couldn't get a copy of that and for interest sake, Chairperson, it's a very voluminous document with about 50 volumes. If you intend looking at that perhaps you should be warned. CHAIRPERSON One doesn't want to look at 50 volumes, one wants to look at the transcript of this witnesses evidence? MR KOOPEDI Well Chairperson, I am referring to the entire volume because you will from time to time want to look at the transcript. If I may go on? You say that when you arrived at Lusaka, you were kept at a house, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MR KOOPEDI And you were later moved to another house? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now at this first house were you assaulted? MR MPUNGOSE No, I was never assaulted there. MR KOOPEDI Now at this first house with whom were you staying, were you alone? MR MPUNGOSE I was staying with a young man whose name was Zweli Mkunu. He was originally from Lamontville and there was this other young man who would be there sleeping with me in the room who would have his AK47 all the time. MR KOOPEDI Now you say that there were four people who took you to the farm and assaulted you, is that correct? MR MPUNGOSE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI You also said that when you were assaulted at the house the four people assaulted you? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now what I find strange is why in the Matsonyuane Commission you said that in Lusaka you were only assaulted by three people? MR MPUNGOSE I don't remember saying that. The other thing in that statement that was prepared for the Matsonyuane Commission, I did not compile this statement and some of the things that are written there, it's not what I said. CHAIRPERSON Where is this that he said he was only assaulted by three people? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, if you look at page 82 of the report. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, page 82? MR KOOPEDI Page 82 of your bundle, page 98 of the Matsonyuane Report, at the bottom there, there starts a list of people whom he mentioned to have assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON Well if you look at page 79 you will see that he said "In Lusaka Mpungose was interrogated and tortured by four members of the security branch including Floyd Huna known as Sphinx, Tim Williams and a young man Piliso." Four persons. MR KOOPEDI Could you direct me to the paragraph, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Centre of page 79. MR KOOPEDI I see that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you cannot put to him that he said only three, that is not true? MR KOOPEDI Maybe let me not argue about that Chairperson, because I believe it would be up to him to answer that question. Now the things that were found on you by the unit, you have admitted that the IFP membership card was found but I heard you in your evidence saying that you were not found with car registration numbers. Is that the case, are you confirming this? MR MPUNGOSE Yes that is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now Chairperson, page 82 of your bundle, the Matsonyuane Commission Report again, at the top of that. You gave the Matsonyuane Commission an explanation of why you had the registration numbers of Joe Nhlanhla and Joe Jeli and why is it today that you don't know ever having - you did not have the registration numbers of the vehicles? MR MPUNGOSE What is written there I do not believe it's what I said. I never said that. Whoever was compiling that statement said whatever he liked but I didn't write the statement. MR KOOPEDI But maybe if I remind you, this might help. When you were asked why you were in possession of the number of items which were said were in your possession, you had them in your possession amongst others the car registration numbers. You gave an explanation that the reason why you had the car registration numbers of Joe Nhlanhla and Joe Jeli, was because you did not know who are the people who had come to Lusaka and visit their house or the place where you were kept and further that you were afraid that your torturers might come and ask you about these cars that came. Do you remember that? MR MPUNGOSE I cannot remember that. Truly speaking, each and every item that was found there was never brought to me. Even the fact that I admitted to having such items, I was forced and even video cameras that everything that I was saying would be recorded. That's what they were doing everywhere. MR KOOPEDI They say there was another allegation against you, that you were involved in the abduction and the killing of an ANC member in Swaziland named Mapumulu. Do you remember that allegation? MR MPUNGOSE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Of course you say that you did not hear what Matsonyuane had to say about your testimony but I believe as you say you consulted with counsel, counsel told you that according to Matsonyuane's findings there was reason to suspect you on Mapumulu's issue, on Mapumulu's death. Do you have a comment on that? MR MPUNGOSE I do remember that. MR KOOPEDI Well, there were other allegations against you, that you provided assistance to four cadres who were then caught by the police. Do you remember that? MR MPUNGOSE No, I cannot remember that because when I was talking about the people that I assisted, it's only two people that I worked with. Though I was Shange who was arrested, he was later released and I was not there, I was in Johannesburg. But the person that I can think of, the girlfriend of his, I never worked with her but he was one of the people who had gone to Swaziland and who were later arrested but the people who were working with me, no one was ever arrested. MR KOOPEDI Well I find it strange that you say that no one was arrested then because the ANC security department produced a file during the Matsonyuane Commission which your counsel had a copy of and in that file you were placed at Swaziland at the time of Mapumulu's disappearance. Do you remember that? MR MPUNGOSE I was not in Swaziland when Mapumulu died or was killed. MR KOOPEDI Well I put it to you that you also conceded to have been in Swaziland at that time in the Matsonyuane Commission? MR MPUNGOSE I only went to Swaziland but when Mapumulu was killed I was in Johannesburg. I heard that when I was in Johannesburg when I called Shange and I got that from Shange. I was not in Swaziland during the incident. I came and proceeded to Johannesburg. I came to Swaziland and proceeded to Johannesburg. I was in Tshabalala's place in Johannesburg. MR KOOPEDI And finally, I put it to you that the applicants gave full disclosure and further that you have once more, like you did and it was found in the Matsonyuane Commission, exaggerated the beatings that were done on you. Your comment? MR MPUNGOSE That is not exaggeration. Here I'm telling the honest truth. MR KOOPEDI No further questions, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where does it say that he exaggerated the beatings? MR KOOPEDI (The second paragraph of page 82 of your bundle of documents. The fourth line, starts with "The Commission finds it more likely than not that he was beaten by them in some manner, even if not exactly as he described it". CHAIRPERSON Yes, "even if not exactly", that is not exaggeration, is it? "Even if not exactly", that means merely that you don't accept word for word that somebody remembers? MR KOOPEDI Well Chairperson, the word that was used was that he exaggerated it in the hearing. CHAIRPERSON You cannot continue to give evidence of what you say occurred at the hearing to support your questions. In that case you must come and give evidence properly, not just put things to the witness and say that's what was said? Are you saying they have not written down in the commission's report what they said at the hearing. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, like I initially said that - or perhaps let me put it this way, it is in this commission that he was asked questions and it is in this commission that he made certain admissions. It may well be that the report has a wording which says that the beating did not happen exactly as he said it did but what was put to him was that there was exaggeration and if he ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It may have been put to him. That does not mean the commission accepted it. MR KOOPEDI If it will please the Chairperson, I will put it to him that "although you were beaten, you were not beaten exactly as you described, like the Matsonyuane Commission found. Your comment please". MR MPUNGOSE I am describing the beatings as they happened and the times I am telling exactly what happened because as they say I was assaulted only once. I can say I was assaulted up to four times and even as things continued in Angola even though the others didn't get to Angola, I was injured on my body. Who caused the injuries if they didn't do that because they're even denying about the parts on my body. I don't even have sexual feelings because they were kicking my bladder, kicking me on my back. What could be the cause of my loss of sexual feelings if that is not the truth. I am telling the honest truth, this happened as I'm telling you now. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Questions? MR MAPOMA Chairperson, before I consider questions to ask I would like to make an application that the statement which was referred to this Committee which is alleged to have been made by Mr Mpungose be made available to the Committee and to all parties involved. It is then that I'll be able to probably consider what questions to ask. JUDGE DE JAGER And could you perhaps obtain the statements given by the applicants to the commission too and let's have those statements too if it's available? This one is available, the others I think should be available too? MR MAPOMA I will endeavour to do that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) adjournment? MR MAPOMA Yes I propose to an adjournment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well we'll take a short adjournment now. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Continue? MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, copies of a statement by Mr Mpungose have been made available to the parties involved and I ask the Committee to accept the statement as Exhibit A. CHAIRPERSON Exhibit A? MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What was the statement prepared for? MS MAKHUBELE If I may? The statement was prepared for the Human Rights Violations. CHAIRPERSON HRC? MS MAKHUBELE Yes, this was after the Matsonyuane Commission. MR MAPOMA I have enquired from Mr Koopedi about the statements which are supposed to have been made by the applicants to the Matsonyuane Commission and unfortunately those statements, I'm told, cannot be found at this point. Mr Koopedi is here to say, whatever. MR KOOPEDI Well after speaking to Mr Mapoma, I have called the ANC office and I've asked someone to go again and look where we have failed, to see if they cannot trace the transcript and the statements made by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON We're obliged to you, if you would. JUDGE DE JAGER But could you perhaps tell us is the commission correct in finding that they denied that they ever assaulted the victim here? MR KOOPEDI I missed the question. Did the commission? JUDGE DE JAGER The commission stated that the applicants denied - I haven't got this ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Page 80. MR KOOPEDI Now I understand the question. Chairperson, that question was asked to the first applicant and his answer was just as I recalled that what was denied in particular. In fact, let me say Tim Williams denied ever assaulting the applicant throughout the commission and the first applicant here who has come to be known as Sphinx denied that he assaulted as excessive as he had stated. He denied that the marks on his back were occasioned by any assault by him. The only thing he said he did was to assault him under his feet with something, a stick or a knopkierie or something. CHAIRPERSON That's what he told us, that he assaulted him under his feet. Did he tell the commission that? MR KOOPEDI This is the part that I remember, Chairperson, that he said he only beat him on the feet but he denied the series of beatings, the hangings and all those things. JUDGE DE JAGER You see, because the commission stated on page 80 "Both Tim Williams and Floyd Huna who worked with the counter-intelligence section of the security department denied that they assaulted Mpungose in any way." MR KOOPEDI Yes, what I say my recollection is, my recollection is that applicant who has become known as Sphinx denied the other forms of beatings other than having beaten him on the soles of his feet. JUDGE DE JAGER So then the report on this aspect is wrong? MR KOOPEDI As far as my recollection goes, Chairperson, it is. JUDGE DE JAGER But the ANC itself submitted this report as part of their submissions to the TRC? MR KOOPEDI Yes, that is indeed so. Or it also submitted various reports relating to the same incident. There was a Douglas Commission, there was a Stewart Commission, there was a commission by the Amnesty International. All these reports were submitted which had very different findings, which had very different versions of evidence by similar applicants. JUDGE DE JAGER Yes, but those commissions weren't appointed by the ANC itself? MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so. Well some of them, I know for instance that the Stewart Commission was an ANC commission. MR MAPOMA For the record, the Matsonyuane Commission was an independent commission appointed by President of the ANC, Mr Mandela, then in 1993 inside South Africa. Chairperson, regarding this statement I have no questions and I have no questions to the witness as well. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SIBANYONI Maybe just a few or one, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mpungose, when you said you were hanged upside down on a tree, who hanged you? Are you able to say so and so grabbed me, tied me upside down. Is it possible for you to explain? MR MPUNGOSE It was Sphinx himself and Piliso as well as Dieta. That was the time when Tim had gone to fetch some food. MR SIBANYONI What was used to tie you up to the tree? MR MPUNGOSE A rope. MR SIBANYONI For how long were you on the tree? MR MPUNGOSE From 9 o'clock to around 11 o'clock. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR KOOPEDI No further questions, Chairperson. MS MAKHUBELE None. That's the applicant's case. There are no witnesses to call. I'm sorry, I'm used to representing applicants, that's Mr Mpungose's case. No witnesses. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Right gentlemen, are you ready to start addresses? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT Yes we are Chairperson, I believe there's also a lady, Chairperson. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it is my submission that the two applicants that appeared before you have told you the whole truth, have fully disclosed all the relevant facts to you. It is my submission that there is of course a very big gap between their version and the version of the applicant. My submission is that even though the one might say this happened a long time ago, there are a lot of things that happened to this victim and it may well be so that what some of the things that he says happened to him in Lusaka may have happened in Angola and it also may well be so that some of them were not as exactly as he stated. I will ask you Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, to look at the Human Rights Violations Committee statement which has now been placed before us. It will be seen from that statement that what he said there, I've not been able to go through it all but the very first portions of that indicate that this statement is also not similar to the evidence that was given here and my submission is that the victim's evidence, is not exactly as it happened. To pass that, I also wish to submit, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members that all that was done or admitted to have been done before you by the applicants, none of the applicants received anything that is materially beneficial to them, there was no material personal gain. It is also my submission that at all times when they acted their action was political motivated with a political objective in sight. At no stage would one say the applicants acted otherwise, they did not act out of malice, they did not act criminally, they did not do anything which did not have the political motive. The applicants that were before you were members of a counter-intelligence unit which had a task to fight anyone who was seen or who was thought to have been fighting the ANC or against the ANC at that stage. It is my submission that the manner in which they conducted themselves was dictated upon by the circumstances in which they found themselves and the evidence which they found the victim to be in possession of and whatever information that they had. It is therefore my submission, Chairperson, that the two applicants that appeared before you do qualify to be granted amnesty. CHAIRPERSON In the light of the fact, as I recollect it, the applicant said, "he made confessions to us then he changed so we assaulted him", isn't that grossly disproportionate? He had made admissions, he had told them, they say that he made confessions but then he changed his confessions or tried to withdraw them and that's what provoked the assaults? That's not a political objective, that's just their temper reaction, isn't it? MR KOOPEDI No, I don't see it that way, Chairperson, in that it was explained, I believe, over and over that the assault was used as a last resort to achieve the purpose of the whole exercise. The purpose of the whole exercise was to understand a number of things which they had on their dossier, the disappearance of certain MK members, the abduction of other people, the killing of Mapumulu and the fact that the victim in this matter belonged to an underground cell and had endangered a number of people. Therefore Chairperson, if the biography written or the confession made does not tally with certain information that they had and they had to resort to this last step of assaulting, my submission is that this was not purely out of temper but purely ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That is what worries me, doesn't Dieta say - this is my note" "I'm not a violent person but I do get cross. I must have slapped or fisted him"? MR KOOPEDI That's what he told you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that's not that we did this on a procedural basis, it's "I got cross and I slapped him." MR KOOPEDI That is so Chairperson, but this is what made him cross, took him to the last step and which step was to get him to tell him the truth or what they believed to be the truth then. My submission is that, Chairperson, if they didn't take that step, according to them there was no other way they would then get to the truth that they wanted. Well perhaps and finally Chairperson, it might be prudent for me to also add that the applicant was at a later stage released. I know that once he got to Camp 32 in Angola, may not be part of this hearing, but yes, I wanted to say that at some stage he was finally released because there was no reason to or as they saw it then, to proceed detaining him. JUDGE DE JAGER So the only assaults that they admit of administering was a few slaps by applicant number two and beating underneath the feet by applicant number one. No other assaults? MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER No hanging from a tree or pulling his beard or spitting or whatever, none of those occurred? MR KOOPEDI None of those occurred according to their evidence. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(inaudible) administered by the present applicants? MR KOOPEDI That is so, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER We heard very little evidence about kidnapping or abducting or did the applicants play any part in that or didn't they ...(intervention) MR KOOPEDI Kidnapping the victim? JUDGE DE JAGER Yes. MR KOOPEDI They played a part in the sense that at some stage he then came to them and they took the matter over. The kept him at this house and they, at some stage, took him to the farm at Chongele and this is where they assaulted him and I believe therefore that ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER But they said they ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON They didn't ask for it, did they? MR KOOPEDI I understood their amnesty applications to be applications for all the acts, whatever they did to them and in particular assaulting him and my submission is therefore that, Chairperson, if they assaulted him they would have had to abduct him. I may give an example that if an applicant asks for amnesty for having shot and killed someone, I believe that this person will also then be asking for amnesty for the weapon he had, he used to do this, if this weapon is what he carried. CHAIRPERSON What they say here is they participated in the debriefing of Mpungose, not anything indicating kidnapping by them or anything, participating in the debriefing. The man comes along to be questioned and they participated it. MR KOOPEDI I thought they said they participated in debriefing and interrogating him and what I'm saying, Chairperson, is that they would not have been able to do so if they did not abduct him. CHAIRPERSON Why? You can question a man without abducting him? You have been questioning people here on numerous occasions and you haven't abducted them? MR KOOPEDI I've not been interrogating them Chairperson. For you to interrogate a person, you'd have, I believe, to have this person at a certain place and you are at this stage not asking questions, you are insisting, you are not begging for answers, you are insisting on them and my submission is therefore that you cannot conduct an interrogation the way they did when in fact he had come freely. And thank you, Chairperson, that's my submission. MS MAKHUBELE IN ARGUMENT Thank you Chairperson. In passing, firstly I would just want to respond to Mr Koopedi's statement that Mr Mpungose's statement made available to the Committee today. The first few submissions are wrong. Well, he doesn't refer to a specific one but I just want to point out that I have read it without him referring to a specific portion. I submit that it's in accordance with the evidence that he gave before this Committee. Maybe Mr Koopedi read the first line where he starts, he says he left the country in 1987 and then he is back on the same paragraph, but he's back in 1992. I can just point out that the statement was prepared by himself, he was not assisted by a legally trained person and as such the facts as they appear were written in a random manner, if I may put it that way. Then turning to the political motive and if I recall, the applicants indicated that it was not ANC policy to assault but as a last resort or if we make a report, finally we would motivate why we assaulted a specific person. But one would be surprised because on the same breath the applicant, if I recall particularly, Mr Dieta indicated when I asked him why they had to - one of the reasons they would not have done certain things in the farm at Chongele is because had the treasurer general or some other official but whose farm maybe that was, had he known about that, obviously they would have been in trouble and that indicates immediately to one that they had no reason to believe that their actions would be ratified by their superiors and as such, which would also indicate they - on another question, he indicated that "we would not have assaulted him in the house because that would have raised suspicion. That too indicates that they had no reason to believe then that their actions would if not authorised have been ratified. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't that slightly different? My understanding what he has said about the house was they were an ANC underground organisation. They didn't want their neighbours to hear screams and to know that something was going on in that house? MS MAKHUBELE I concede that, Chairperson. I'm not going to take that further. Again, Chairperson, on the question of - we have heard evidence that this was a matter - they were with him for at least, they said, two weeks. According to him it could have been a month or so. They had ample time to verify the allegations they had against him in view of the fact that at the end of the interrogation they are the people who, according to their evidence, had to make recommendations as to what was to be his fate from there. Well, they say they cannot remember whatever recommendations - if they made recommendations, they can't remember recommendations they had made. Then one would say that they did make recommendations and which would mean that they had a chance to verify. Mr Dieta's evidence regarding the IFP card, for example, he said that at the time they - his - because he was not in the country, he could not imagine the reality and if a person would have given him that explanation, then he would not have believed it. But then, Honourable Committee, we're talking about a counter-intelligence unit. There are people who, if we are to believe that they had access to information on that level, they would have obviously verified that information and the other thing is that the evidence of the victim, Mr Mpungose, is that except for the card, all the other allegations, he was just told that "we have found this thing in your possession" but he was never shown those things. Regarding whether they assaulted him in the manner that was described by him, obviously as one applicant answered in one of my questions that "it's his word against mine". But then, what's not in dispute is the fact that the was assaulted and as such, the circumstances which, at the end of the day, would be the determining factor and their reasons for doing so and it's my submission that they acted outside their mandate which they were aware of and that's all, Chairperson. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, I have no submissions. CHAIRPERSON For the record, we will take time to consider our decision.