amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-18 PRETORIA 2 DON SIPHO MASHELE aka BEN MASEKO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54354&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200718pt.htm MS MAKHUBELE I'm sorry, I wasn't aware you were waiting for me. I was trying to confirm with Mr Maseko. He is not prepared to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Do you need a little more time? MS MAKHUBELE I think I do. CHAIRPERSON Will you let us know when you're ready? MS MAKHUBELE Thank you Chairperson. Thank you Chairperson for the indulgence. Mr Maseko will give evidence. CHAIRPERSON He will? MS MAKHUBELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You're persuasive. MS MAKHUBELE Sorry Mr Sibanyoni, before we proceed, can I just place on record that his real name is Don Sipho Mashele. MR SIBANYONI Don Sipho Mashele? MS MAKHUBELE Yes, this Ben Maseko was the travelling name then. DON SIPHO MASHELE aka BEN MASEKO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Thank you. Mr Mashele, you have heard the evidence of Mr Moruti Noosi. I want you to particularly deal with the assault on you by him. In his application and evidence before this court he says there's one, he is applying for amnesty in respect of one incident where he hit you. What's your comment on that? Was it one incident or several incidents? Can you tell us about the incidents? MR MASHELE Well there were several incidents where he particularly, alone, interrogated me persistently and hit me in most of those occasions. I recall one incident when he insinuated that when a sick person, when I knocked at the door at night for a sick person and they find out and they know there is a sick person because we tried everything for a person to revive that person who had fits and we were failing. So he called that person the medico, he was in charge of the camp there. He called the medico and they went and looked after this person and later on they brought him back. He had not fully recovered, this person, he was still in a daze. And then, immediately after that, I was called out where him, Mountain and Ronnie, Ronnie was the medico, he in particular had a pistol and he hit me persistently with a pistol. Well, his evidence that he did not remember other incidents where he hit me, it's not true because he - in particular this incident he must remember because he emptied the - he took out the magazine and emptied the gun and hit me with the pistol. MS MAKHUBELE Was this medico incident the first incident where he hit you? MR MASHELE No, it was one of the many occasions where he hit me. MS MAKHUBELE The first one being which one? MR MASHELE The interrogation known the 24th September 1981. MS MAKHUBELE How did he hit you in this first incident? MR MASHELE In the first incident he in particular, he hit me with a pistol again, that night and he insisted that until he had what he wanted, he wanted to hear from me, he would not stop. MS MAKHUBELE So you said, you keep on referring to him in particular which means that you're only referring to how he assaulted you but you were assaulted by other people too in this say, the first occasion? MR MASHELE Yes, it's true. MS MAKHUBELE Who were in his company? MR MASHELE It was Nusi, it was Mashego's son, I think, I don't remember his name, what he was called then. That's why I was saying Stanley and another guy from Klipspruit but well, I forget his name. MS MAKHUBELE Did you sustain injuries in the first incident when you were hit? MR MASHELE Especially that night, I could not eat for several days after that interrogation and he knows about it, I was given a special diet to recuperate. MS MAKHUBELE The nature of the injuries you sustained ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Why couldn't you eat? MR MASHELE My whole body was sore, my jaws were like broken. I could not, you know, move my jaws easily. MS MAKHUBELE You exhibited the scars that you said you sustained, from the injuries you sustained. On which particular incident did you sustain the injuries say that resulted in you losing sight of your eye and your nostril being broken and cuts on your head? MR MASHELE The eye was swollen from the first day when I was interrogated, the first day that I went into that camp but I could not see much difference as to the severity of the injury that I had suffered on the eye. But after the incident of the night when he hit me with a pistol, for that epileptic case, I immediately saw that my eye was gone now. MS MAKHUBELE Did these incidents follow each other? How far apart were they? MR MASHELE Like four years apart. CHAIRPERSON Four years? MR MASHELE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE You mean the first one, the interrogation was on the 24th September 1981? MR MASHELE Yes. MS MAKHUBELE And the incident where you were hit because of an epileptic person had happened four years later which would be in 1985? MR MASHELE That's true. MS MAKHUBELE So between '81 and '85 your eye had been injured but you could still see? MR MASHELE Yes. Even now I can see, I can drive with my eye without glasses. The only problem is that I can't read. MS MAKHUBELE So it's not that you have lost sight but then your vision has been affected? MR MASHELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Have you been to a doctor for this? MR MASHELE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And what has he prescribed? MR MASHELE I have since applied for a disability with the military pensions which I'm receiving even now from the doctor's observation of my eye or examination of my eye. MS MAKHUBELE Do you know what blow caused your eye to be swollen? Isn't it you being assaulted by four people? A blow administered by which person of the four? MR MASHELE Yes, it's because of the hitting with the butt that really damaged my left eye. MS MAKHUBELE By who? MR MASHELE By Stanley. MS MAKHUBELE And the injury on your nostril? What caused it? MR MASHELE That as well came from the butt beating. MS MAKHUBELE By who? MR MASHELE By Stanley. MS MAKHUBELE When you say Stanley and you nod the head what ...(intervention) JUDGE DE JAGER Is Stanley the applicant sitting over there? MR MASHELE Yes. Yes. JUDGE DE JAGER Well, refer to him as the applicant. MR MASHELE By the applicant, yes. MS MAKHUBELE Thank you. Was this also on the first occasion? The first assault? The nostril? MR MASHELE That I also noticed the first day because it bled throughout but since you were all by yourself in solitary confinement you could not even look at a mirror or whatever. MS MAKHUBELE Did you go for medical treatment? Apparently there was a medical centre in that camp? MR MASHELE Yes, on countless occasions I went to the medical treatment and the only thing that we used to get there were pain killers. MS MAKHUBELE The injuries on your head, which occasion did you get them? The first of the second incident? MR MASHELE The first incident. MS MAKHUBELE And what caused them? MR MASHELE The hitting with all sorts of things, the sticks, the butts, the boots, the trampling upon, everything. MS MAKHUBELE You heard the applicant, he says that the occasion on which he hit you, he had been called because you were uncooperative and you wanted to charge at the guards. Did this ever happen where you were labelled, say problematic? MR MASHELE That's not true. Anybody could give evidence to my behaviour in that camp. I was the most, you know, co-operative person at that camp because I felt that this would be solved though it took so much long. MS MAKHUBELE You also heard that he left the camp in, if I'm not mistaken, I speak under correction, 1986 and then you left the camp in 1989. Is this correct? '88 or '89? MR MASHELE '88. MS MAKHUBELE But then the point is he left you in the camp? MR MASHELE Yes it's true. MS MAKHUBELE After he left were you assaulted by any other person between '86 and '88? MR MASHELE Yes, there were several occasions of assault but those were administered in a way that - just buttocks, you were beaten on the buttocks. MS MAKHUBELE You are certain that the injuries you exhibited, you sustained them by beatings by him and not after he left? MR MASHELE Yes I'm certain. MS MAKHUBELE You also - rather, he also mentioned when he was - when the Panel sought clarification on the issue of apology, whether he has apologised to you or not and he said that you approached him and sought an apology, is this correct? MR MASHELE It's true. MS MAKHUBELE Under what circumstances? MR MASHELE We met at Shell House, then called Shell House, now Luthuli House. I met him, I asked him what he did there because I'm fully convinced it was not motivated by any good intentions, that he must apologise to me for that and this was done seriously because I wanted him to take an opportunity then to apologise to me. MS MAKHUBELE Which year was it, if I may ask? MR MASHELE It was around '94/'95. MS MAKHUBELE Yes and what was his response? MR MASHELE He never apologised and moved away from me. Turned his back against me. MS MAKHUBELE You also gave me instructions which I put to him during cross-examination that he knows - that he cannot say he doesn't know your whereabouts. In fact you work in the same organisation and he denied it. Can you clarify this? MR MASHELE It's true. I met him on maybe two or three occasions at the general practitioner, which is my practitioner, and you know, this thing is straining our relationship, especially when we meet because he just looks at me and he doesn't care. You see, he doesn't want to, know like, extend, you know, even a smile, to show that I recognise you, you see? And recently we met at a funeral of Dr Haga, we used to call him Dr Haga, he also you know, exhibited the same - I don't know whether to call it arrogance or what. MS MAKHUBELE But what I want, I'm particularly interested in, does he know where you work? MR MASHELE Yes he does. MS MAKHUBELE To an extent that he would have say given the Commission your contact details? MR MASHELE Yes he does. CHAIRPERSON Do you work together? MR MASHELE Well he is in the government structure, I mean the ANC, with the MK veterans. He always comes to Shell House, well not always, occasionally comes to Shell House, he knows I'm there and I don't know why he denies that. He should have gave an effort at finding out where I am. MS MAKHUBELE You said that because you are convinced that when he assaulted you it was not for good intentions. What do you mean because he says that he, as a person in authority then, he had to instil discipline and order in the camp. What's your opinion on this? Are you saying he was not - it was not his duty to do that? MR MASHELE The applicant had authority in the camp and the warders, they used to do their punishments to the occupants of that camp without any - there was no reason for them to go and even report any case of that nature because they used to mete out the punishment then and there by themselves. So that incident is not there, I don't know why he even mentions an incident when there are several others that he in particular was doing the assault on. MS MAKHUBELE Are you saying if you had been problematic, it's the warders who should have dealt with it and not him? MR MASHELE Exactly. MS MAKHUBELE Evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Maseko, I hope you don't mind us calling you Maseko because I've just learnt that you are Mashele. Mr Maseko, maybe let's start with this incident where you say you had reported that there was a case of an epileptic person. After this person had been attended to you say that you were - I need to understand what happened to you. You mentioned certain names which would include Mountain and Ronnie. What did they do to you, these people? MR MASHELE I was called there, he was the highest authority in that meeting. He said that, he insinuated that I was giving a chance for this guy to bolt from the camps because it was midnight and when I knocked and asked that they should attend to him because he was actually an epileptic and a common thing which they knew but when the insinuation came that I was making ways for him to bolt, you see, I don't know what they meant. MR KOOPEDI And how were you assaulted on this occasion? MR MASHELE He assaulted me first with the butt and I was dazed, completely dazed and after that I found myself on the floor being beaten by all of them. MR KOOPEDI And where did he hit you this time with the butt? MR MASHELE He hit me right on the slap of the left side of my face. MR KOOPEDI Did he hit you again with the butt? MR MASHELE Yes he did. MR KOOPEDI Did he hit you once? MR MASHELE He hit me - I think he hit me twice because after that I could not see anything. MR KOOPEDI On the second occasion, the one that you remember, where did he hit you? You say he hit you twice? MR MASHELE Yes. MR KOOPEDI On your left? MR MASHELE On my face. On my left face. MR KOOPEDI On the left side on your eye and you think he hit you twice? MR MASHELE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now I want to know, on the second blow, where did he strike you? MR MASHELE On the same place. MR KOOPEDI On the same place. And other than this incident, you say there were other incidences but I want to get to the incident where your nose got broken. Which incident was this, what was happening there? MR MASHELE Like I said during the interrogation they were hitting me with everything, all sorts of articles. Sticks, butts, boots, trampling on me and I bled for a very long time. MR KOOPEDI Now let's forget a little about the - you know, we understand that there were other people. I want us to concentrate on him. On this other occasion did he also hit you with a butt? Did he use a butt? MR MASHELE Yes. MR KOOPEDI And what kind of a firearm was it? MR MASHELE A Makarov, a small one. A pistol. MR KOOPEDI Can you remember how many times he hit you with that? MR MASHELE Many times, I wouldn't remember, I could not recall the count. MR KOOPEDI Now other than that occasion, there are two occasions which we've spoken about and on both of them you were hit with a butt. Did he hit you again? MR MASHELE On the first occasion? MR KOOPEDI No, I may not have put the occasions in the chronological order that they follow but the first one you and I just spoke about was the situation which involved the epileptic person and there was this second incident where you were hit again during interrogation in using a butt. I want to know if there was another occasion where he assaulted you and if so, what did he use? MR MASHELE There was an occasion where he had an electric cord, a big one and it was woven and he kept hitting me on the head during interrogation. MR KOOPEDI Now who else, who else hit you other than him in the various times when you were assaulted. Who else hit you? MR MASHELE I said many people hit me. Many. MR KOOPEDI I'm asking for names. MR MASHELE I could mention twenty if you want me to but this is not about mentioning people, this is about me and him, trying to find a way of resolving our difference. MR KOOPEDI So you're not prepared to mention who else hit you? Are you not prepared to mention who else hit you? MR MASHELE It this won't implicate other people, I could mention a lot of names but I'm sure those people didn't inflict the injury he inflicted. Why? It's because the warders, like I have already said, they used to mete out their punishment on the buttocks. MR KOOPEDI So, the other people who hit you would have been the people who hit you in a sort of formal way, like those warders as you say they did? MR MASHELE Mmm. MR KOOPEDI Maybe let me put it the other way, do you work for the ANC? MR MASHELE Yes I do. MR KOOPEDI And what do you do for them? MR MASHELE I work in different departments. Right now I'm working with MK veterans, I'm an organiser. MR KOOPEDI And - I don't understand how organisers work and you will bear with me? And where do you work from? MR MASHELE From the headquarters, Luthuli House. MR KOOPEDI And are you salaried by them, are you paid by the ANC? MR MASHELE Yes I'm paid. MR KOOPEDI Well I find it strange because I made enquiries and no on seemed to work for the ANC but I'm not willing to make that an issue. And finally, I put it to you that the reason why you are only prepared to mention, to name this applicant and the reason why you are saying that this applicant is the one who caused, you know, the bigger injuries, if one may call them so to you, is simply because you had an acknowledgement from him and you didn't get it. You asked for an apology and he refused to give it to you, that is when you asked. When he meets you at funerals, he does not acknowledge you and that is solely the reason why you're trying to change the situation? MR MASHELE It's not changing the situation, it's stating the facts as they are. MR KOOPEDI No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mashele, is it your evidence that at some point in the camp you yourself was assaulted by the warders in the course of their duties? MR MASHELE Yes it's true. MR MAPOMA What was it that they advanced for assaulting you? MR MASHELE There would be several reasons, excuses. For instance if you're working they would put a target and if you are unable to make the target within the stipulated time they would hit you. MR MAPOMA So is that an example of the circumstances under which you'd be hit? MR MASHELE Yes. MR MAPOMA And did they, to your knowledge, did they report your failure to make the targets, did they report this to the head, that is Mr Noosi? MR MASHELE They could have reported but I doubt if they would report because they'd already punished you. MR MAPOMA Now when you were interrogated, if I understand you, your evidence that you were interrogated on a number of occasions, is it so? MR MASHELE It's true. MR MAPOMA And what reasons were they, that they would advance for you to be interrogated, by those who were interrogating you? MR MASHELE It's still very strange, even today, nobody wants to come up and say why. MR MAPOMA Yes but what - then at the time when you were interrogated, were there allegations put to you what was happening actually? MR MASHELE Allegations of infiltration were hinted upon. MR MAPOMA I see. MR MASHELE As the duration of my stay there. MR MAPOMA I see. Now you said in your first part of evidence that there were several incidents when you were assaulted by the applicant, do you remember that? MR MASHELE Yes. MR MAPOMA And in the course of evidence you said these incidences differed, I mean had been interrupted by a four year period? MR MASHELE No, I was talking about an incident from the first interrogation to the incident where of the epileptic case. MR MAPOMA I see. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SIBANYONI Mr Mashele, I heard you mentioning the date being the 24th September 1981. How do you recall the date, the exact date? Your microphone before you speak? MR MASHELE The date of this nature you cannot forget in your life. When you are confronted with this situation, that really puts you off guard, that you did not expect. MR SIBANYONI Did I understand you correctly that you said you became dazed and you fell down on the ground? MR MASHELE Can you repeat that question please? MR SIBANYONI Did I understand you correctly that after the applicant allegedly assaulted you, you became dazed and there was an occasion that you were on the ground? MR MASHELE Yes. It was in the case of the epileptic case. MR SIBANYONI And when you were on the ground did any people assault you? MR MASHELE I don't know because I was in a state of coma or something. MR SIBANYONI We see a number of scars on your head which you showed to the Committee. Were those scars inflicted on the same occasion of the epileptic fit, of the person with an epileptic fit? MR MASHELE They simply added to the ones that I already had from the first interrogation. MR SIBANYONI Are you able to say how many did you sustain in the first occasion and how many in the second occasion? MR MASHELE No, I'm not able to say that. MR SIBANYONI When you were cross-examined by the applicant's legal representative, Mr Brian Koopedi, you said the applicant also used an electronic cord and hit you on your back? MR MASHELE On the head. MR SIBANYONI On the head. Why didn't you say that in your evidence-in-chief? You only mentioned it when you were cross-examined by Mr Koopedi. MR MASHELE I mentioned, I said several occasions he assaulted me during interrogations which he also admitted that there were several incidents, many incidents when he interrogated me. Many, countless ones. MR SIBANYONI You said you could mention twenty names of people who assaulted you. Are you saying it's the applicant and nineteen others who are warders or who are the other people who assaulted you? MR MASHELE The warders. MR SIBANYONI And they didn't inflict any injury during the assault? MR MASHELE I have several injuries in my body which are not significant. MR SIBANYONI Do you know of any reason why the applicant would persistently assault you? MR MASHELE It puzzles me because he was like the main person who was bent on getting whatever he wanted from me which even today is still puzzling. MR SIBANYONI Are you still having problems with him today or are you still angry with him today? MR MASHELE No I'm not. Even now I want him to be given amnesty on this case but I want the truth to come out. MR SIBANYONI And you are saying he hasn't told us the truth? MR MASHELE Exactly. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You were assaulted by numerous people, weren't you? MR MASHELE Yes it's true. CHAIRPERSON Your counsel put that for 155 days you were in solitary confinement and you were assaulted again and again and again? MR MASHELE Yes it's true. CHAIRPERSON And they were - there's all these other people, only caused insignificant injuries? Is that so? MR MASHELE It's true. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sorry, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MAKHUBELE Yes, thank you. You, on this - can you just clarify this? On this question of you not wanting to mention names of people who assaulted you and you further when Mr Sibanyoni wanted to clarify that you said it's Mr Noosi and nineteen warders. But then is the position not that say in the first incident you were assaulted by the people with whom the applicant was interrogating you, amongst others Noosi, Stanley and this other one and in the second incident, you mentioned names like Mountain, Ronnie. Are these not the names of the people who assaulted you? MR MASHELE Yes it is true but I don't want to mention other names in that those persons were not persistent. You know, when you torture a person, you can torture him over 24 hours. You see, this is exactly what I'm implying here, that the interrogation of the 24th September 1981, was so severe that it caused a lot of damage and the other ones were - significant damage was also caused was the one the night of the epileptic case. That's why I mention names of those particular incidents. The others everybody was like an inmate in that place, suffered those and they were not significant in the sense that I still have my legs, my buttocks, I don't have any effects that are bothering me from those things. MS MAKHUBELE That's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MAKHUBELE MR SIBANYONI Maybe can I just comment Mr Mashele? You know, as the TRC should try to get a full picture as possible of what happened of relevant facts, as much as the applicant should tell us the whole story, we also expect you to tell us exactly the whole story what happened, how you suffered those gross human rights violations. So I do not know what is your reason for withholding certain names of people who assaulted you? MR MASHELE I would have expected a lot of people to come forward, you know, because the picture is portrayed here is that people were defending the ANC and people were motivated by certain, you know, things that were motivating them to do these things whereas the opposite could be true, that certain people did these things with certain motives, you see? That's what lies in the bottom of this thing, hence it is came as a surprise to me when I saw my name on the paper, that here is somebody who has got a conscience, to come and acknowledge that he did a wrong thing and I'm prepared to bend backwards and say I apologise - I accept your apology because he is brave to have come forward. A lot of people would never think, they would always hide behind the ANC and the ANC, everybody knows it, it's a non-violent organisation, it's a peaceful organisation. Even now persuasion methods are only used. Hence he can't say he was given directives to do what he did. MR SIBANYONI But you can't think of any motive other than a political motive for the applicant for having done what he did to you? MR MASHELE I'm pondering on a lot of ideas but I cannot say which one motivated him to do what he did. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any more witnesses? MS MAKHUBELE No more witnesses, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll hear argument tomorrow morning. MR KOOPEDI Fine by me, Chairperson. That's fine by me, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON What time suits you all, lady and gentlemen? MS MAKHUBELE Same time. CHAIRPERSON Nine? MR KOOPEDI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Very well. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS