amntrans SPHAMBO 2000-07-19 PRETORIA 3 SAMUEL MATHIDI MANGENA AM 5275/97 ASSAULT ON EDWARD DLAMINI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54358&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200719pt.htm SAMUEL MATHIDI MANGENA (sworn states) MR MAPOMA Chairperson for the record, the victim in this matter is Edward Dlamini. He is one of those persons who have not been located up to now despite the notices that we have sent through the media. He unfortunately has not yet shown up and I submit Chairperson that reasonable steps have been taken to locate him and notify him but unfortunately that has not been successful. May we then proceed, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Mangena, is it correct that you are here for an application of amnesty for you having assaulted one Edward Dlamini? MR MANGENA Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now, this document that I'm showing to you, Chairperson page 84 of your bundle of documents, is this your application form? MR MANGENA Yes. MR KOOPEDI And on page 89 of the same bundle of documents, there's a signature appearing at the bottom there, is that your signature? MR MANGENA Ja, it's my signature. MR KOOPEDI Now would you tell this Honourable Committee whether were you a member of any political organisation at this time when this Edward Dlamini was assaulted? MR MANGENA Yes, I was a member of the African National Congress. MR KOOPEDI You have also been a member of its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe? MR MANGENA Yes, I was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI Now where were you at this time? You have it in your application form that this was in 1984. Where were you based in 1984? MR MANGENA In 1984 I was based in Angola and at that time it was during the time whilst we had fighting with UNITA to assist Angolan Government in the Eastern part of that country. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now what were your responsibilities there? What did you do there? MR MANGENA I was responsible for Intelligence and Security. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now let's get to this specific incident where Edward Dlamini was assaulted, whom you refer to as a mutineer in your application form. What was happening here? MR MANGENA Oh I think in 1994 our operations were interrupted by this mutiny which erupted amongst our MK soldiers and therefore we were forced to withdraw from the front areas to Luanda and then this group, the mutineer's group, was then taken to Angolan prison in Luanda where we were just trying to show them out because all of them, they had different reasons to be involved in the meeting, so Edward was amongst very stubborn what you call characters in the group, sort of - he was amongst administration of the mutineers, Edward, so therefore it happened that therefore during the very same period whilst they were still there in that prison, we had complaints from the Angolan Security Colleagues that our group is causing havoc at the prison and then we had that pressure that we should move them from that prison to Camp 32 because of the influence that they were spreading to the Angolan prisoners. Well to state one other incident is that these people organised a hunger strike, demanding to see the leadership and at that time the leadership was not around, or it was not that much easy to organise the leadership since it was in Lusaka, so these people were also putting pressure on us, so we therefore thought that it would be best if we would just transport these people to Camp 32 where we know that at least they are not going to, the Angolan prisoners are not going to be affected or maybe to be influenced by these people, so ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON We've heard the evidence, I think, in other applications, but I'd like just to confirm. Camp 32 was a prison camp administered by the ANC for persons who had committed offences under the ANC disciplinary rules, is that the position? MR MANGENA Yes. So it was during this transportation that a squabble ensued between the Security personnel and the prisoners because these people were resisting to be moved from that prison to Camp 32, so it is when maybe I thought because I cannot be sure as to have I actually assaulted Edward, but I still remember having a tough scrabble with him. JUDGE DE JAGER Were you in the same vehicle, on the same vehicle transport him, or how ...? MR MANGENA Yes, I think I was in the same vehicle transporting him because they needed to be guarded him. JUDGE DE JAGER Was it a lorry? What kind of ...? MR MANGENA Ja it was a lorry. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja. How many people on the lorry? MR MANGENA I cannot remember very well, but it was just a necessary load of people. JUDGE DE JAGER Ja, was it 10, 5, 10, 20, how many approximately? MR MANGENA Approximately around 10. JUDGE DE JAGER And how many prisoners and how many guards approximately? MR MANGENA Well, I cannot be sure on this one because it depended also on the situation because first we had to guard ourselves against UNITA and guard against the prisoners themselves, so plus minus, to be maybe in a position to fight in case of the enemy attacks us, we normally didn't take more than 10 people in a lorry. MR KOOPEDI Now did you forcefully remove Edward from this prison and forcefully take him to camp 32? MR MANGENA Yes. MR KOOPEDI As you've said, you do not remember whether you actually hit him with something, but I would like you to explain what do you mean by forcefully? Did you have to pull him, is that what you remember? MR MANGENA Ja, I remember that some of them, not only Edward, we were forced to pull them and then Edward as his character also was very much stubborn. At some point I think there must have been some exchange with him. JUDGE DE JAGER So he couldn't have died of nothing. MR MANGENA I beg yours? JUDGE DE JAGER He couldn't have died of nothing. MR KOOPEDI Edward has not died, Chairperson. JUDGE DE JAGER Oh, sorry, I'm mistaken. MR KOOPEDI Yes, he didn't die. CHAIRPERSON I gather he suffered no injuries? MR MANGENA No, no, no. CHAIRPERSON Could we just at this stage perhaps put on the record, we can only put half of it on the record because Edward is not here and I haven't seen him, but Mr Mangena do you agree that it would be proper to refer to you as an extremely well-built man, very solid body? MR MANGENA Sorry, I missed that. CHAIRPERSON Do you agree it would be correct to refer to you as a well-built man with a very solid body? MR MANGENA Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now after having taken him to 32, did you ever have anything to do with Edward? MR MANGENA No I wouldn't say that. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if he was subsequently released from Camp 32? MR MANGENA Ja, he was subsequently released from Camp 32 and then he joined the ranks, ANC ranks again and then I think he was among the group which was transferred to Tanzania after this rehabilitation and then from Tanzania I don't know what happened, that's when I lost track of him, but we are not ...(indistinct) MR KOOPEDI Have you seen him in the country? MR MANGENA Ja, I think I met him once in the country, but it's a long time, I think around, I'm not sure when was it. MR KOOPEDI In as far as this incident is concerned, do you think that you have told this Honourable Committee the whole truth that you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts? MR MANGENA Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now did you gain anything material yourself, for having forcefully and possibly assaulting Edward? MR MANGENA No. MR KOOPEDI And your action, would you say your action was politically motivated, and if it was politically motivated, how so? MR MANGENA I think my actions were politically motivated because basically the fact that I was in the Security structure of the ANC, my task was just straightforward and clear that I should defend the interest and the policies of the ANC and now this other group was totally against the interest of the ANC, so to put order in the ANC ranks. I think that the actions that I have taken, they were politically justified. I'll say that. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, that's the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Any questions? MR MAPOMA Just one question, Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Mangena, I need clarity. You say that Edward was in the administration of the mutiny. What do you mean by that? MR MANGENA In fact I think they did assault the mutineers. MR MAPOMA So are you saying he was one of the leaders of the mutineers? MR MANGENA Ja one of the leaders of the mutineers. CHAIRPERSON Of the? MR MANGENA Mutineers. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, that's all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR KOOPEDI Chairperson that concludes the evidence to be led on behalf of this applicant. We are calling no other witnesses. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I don't think it's necessary to hear you unless the ...(indistinct) point is raised. Have you anything to say? MR MAPOMA Nothing Chairperson. NO ARGUMENT BY MR MAPOMA MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, I also don't have anything to say. That is our application. NO ARGUMENT BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) we will deliver our decision. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. I'm sitting with a situation where I don't have an applicant now. JUDGE DE JAGER ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR KOOPEDI All the people who are here have already been heard and those that have not been heard are not here and I am not sure why, Chairperson. It is most probably that they thought that other matters are proceeding and that theirs may only be heard later. JUDGE DE JAGER Are they in the vicinity of the building or not? MR KOOPEDI I need to check. I doubt if they are in the vicinity because they would have been in the hall had they come and if they were somewhere around here. I don't see any of them. CHAIRPERSON Well should we adjourn? It is now ten minutes to Eleven. We will adjourn. If you have not found anybody and are not ready to proceed by 12 o'clock, the adjournment will last till 2 o'clock, as we've already arranged and you can go and start looking for them. If we adjourned now until 2 o'clock would you be able to go and find them, do you think? MR KOOPEDI I should be able to do that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That would necessitate your leaving - do you think you could be back by Twelve with anybody? MR KOOPEDI I will look for them ...(indistinct - mike not on and speaking simultaneously) CHAIRPERSON Well, we'll do it on that basis then that if you can find any by 12 o'clock we'll start then, otherwise 2 o'clock and we'll finish that matter. MR KOOPEDI ...(indistinct - mike not on) COMMITTEE ADJOURNS