amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-25 JOHANNESBURG 2 PATRICK THAPELO MASEKO AM5918/97 VOSLOORUS AND NANCEVILLE INCIDENTS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54369&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200725jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We will proceed to hear the amnesty application of Patrick Thapelo Maseko, amnesty reference 5918/97. The appearances are similar to the previous matter, Mr Mbandazayo appearing for the applicant and Ms Mtanga appearing as the Leader of Evidence. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you want to raise, or do you want your client to be sworn in? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I want to put on record that there is an application which involved Fidelity Guards Depot, where Maseko was involved with Vontjie Moti. That application, Chairperson, by agreement with the Evidence Leader, will be heard tomorrow when we heard Vontjie's matter, it won't be heard with all Maseko's matters. CHAIRPERSON So they both, Mr Maseko and Mr Moti are both involved in that? MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, they are both involved in that one, so we have agreed that it be dealt with tomorrow when we are dealing with Vontjie's matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, we have a summary of the incidents relating to Mr Maseko's application and I assume it's number 15 that will stand over for the Moti application, is it that incident? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, this one is the last one, number 15, Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Then we're with you. Shall we swear your client in? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, he may be sworn in. MR MASEKO Mr Maseko, just indicate whether you hear the translation or the interpretations. PATRICK THAPELO MASEKO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, please be seated. Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of this hearing I will use the affidavits which start from 14 of the bundle, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, as you would notice, that we separated the incidents. In the first affidavit it deals with Vosloorus and Nanceville incident, then the second affidavit deals with the other matters which involve repossession. I will start with the first one which starts at page 14 to page 17, Chairperson. Mr Maseko, the affidavit which in front of you is also before the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit which starts from page 14 to page 17, was made by yourself and you abide by its contents? MR MASEKO Yes, I do. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I will start and read the affidavit for the record. "I, the undersigned, Thapelo Patrick Maseko, do hereby make an oath and say that I'm the applicant in the under-mentioned incidents. The facts to which I deposed are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the content states otherwise. I was born on the third day of May 1956 in Westonaria. I started school at Lebanon gold mine and went to Mapute Community Schoon in Bekkersdal, until standard six. I then worked at Kloof gold mine until I left the country in 1986. I joined PAC through Azania in 1983. On the 18th day of June 1986, I left the country to Botswana, where I stayed until December 1986. I left Botswana for Tanzania, where I stayed for a week before moving to Guinea ...(indistinct) for military training. I did infantry training for three months and returned to Mogoro camp at Iringa, Tanzania. I stayed there for more than three years, undergoing intensive political and ideological ...(indistinct). I was thereafter deployed inside the country at the end of December 1989. When I returned to the country through Harare, we were a unit of four, called Makana Detachment, comprising of myself, Lumumba, Tello and Small Baby. We met our contacts, Junior and Tsiki, in Bulawayo, who arranged for us to enter the country. The two contacts arranged for us to meet a person at mMbatho Sun. It was arranged that we should enter the country in pairs. Myself and Tello went first. We met our contact at the prearranged place and time. He took us to taxi rank and we boarded a taxi to Johannesburg. In Johannesburg we met our contact, Mr Topane Mswadi. He took us to a safe place at Orlando West, Pethene(?), where we stayed until the other two comrades we left at Bulawayo, arrived with arms. I was deployed inside the country with specific instructions to advance the struggle for the liberation of African people in all fronts. We were told that the PAC and APLA have no funds and therefore the cadres should be self-reliant. We were told that the targets will be chosen by us. This unit therefore was called the Repossession Unit. This was the first unit to be sent in the country for this purpose. Though we were to conduct other operations. I was involved in 28 operations. I'm still waiting for the outcome of the application in respect of 11 others. As a Commander of the unit, I was to report to Comrade Junior in Botswana and hand over whatever has been repossessed by the unit to him, with the exception of arms and ammunition which were to be used by the operatives. I was to report to him by going to Botswana or by using a courier who was Comrade General. Vosloorus Incident: Early 1990, there was a conflict between the ANC and PAC members and supporters in this area and we had a prominent member at the time living in the area, who was also a National President of NALTO(?), James Ndaweni, now Ndlalose, he's called James Ndlalose. I was requested by Junior to provide security for him and I decided to do it myself. One night I was woken up by a noise of a group of people and who were surrounding the house and I decided to shoot and I do not know whether I shot anybody, as I was shooting randomly. Mansiville Incident: In the early 1990s, there was a conflict between ANC and PAC supporters and members, and PAC members were being driven away from Mansiville and their houses were burnt. I decided that I must go to Mansiville to protect our members and supporters. It was myself, armed with 9mm Star pistols, Small Baby with AK47, Tello with AK47 and Toyo, armed with .38 revolver. We monitored the situation and we saw the people who were attacking the members of the PAC, because they went to a house which we knew that it belonged to PAC members, and they attacked it. We did not know these people and we saw them where they went after the attack. We decided to attack them and we were about plus-minus 50 metres away from where they were, when we shot at them. We left Mansiville thereafter. I do not think that there was anybody injured or killed because in the paper there was a report that they were attacked and that they suspect APLA. There was no mention of injuries or fatalities. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act, and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the above-mentioned incidents. I therefore humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted." Thank you. Chairperson, we intend not leading further evidence on these two incidents. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. Chairperson, I don't know whether should I proceed, I meant that if there is any cross-examination it can be done, or should I proceed to other incidents? CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think ...(intervention) MR MBANDAZAYO Because the person who will come and support his application will deal with the whole aspect of these incidents and the other coming one. CHAIRPERSON No, no, very well. I think you must proceed and cover all of the incidents in the applicant's evidence-in-chief and then, you know, the details can be dealt with after that. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, for the purposes of time, the second affidavit starts from page 18 up until page 22. Chairperson, I'm intending to start at page 3, because page 18 up to page 20 at the top is still the same with the previous affidavit. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MBANDAZAYO Then I will start with the incidents themselves, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you. "Elandsberg Gold Mine Operation: This happened at a self-service shop in the mine." Chairperson, if I can take instructions, Chairperson, I want to make sure - I did not realise, there is some incident which he already has been handed amnesty in respect of, I'm not sure about which one. MS MTANGA Chairperson, if I may come in. It's the Elsberg Gold Mine incident. Elsberg Gold Mine. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MS MTANGA That's the one, the only one. And the Unitra Robbery in the Eastern Cape. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. It seems if we have to skip that one because it was already heard, this matter. I will start with the Kloof Gold Mine, Chairperson, because this one was already heard and he was granted amnesty on this one. "Kloof Gold Mine: This shop is situated near the taxi rank and I decided that it is suitable for one person, after a careful reconnaissance. I decided that it will be carried out by myself. I boarded a taxi to this area and I was armed with 9mm Star pistol. I entered the shop and I pointed the gun at the owner and demanded money. He pretended to be taking the money and I don't know what happened, but he tackled me down and my pistol fell down and we fought until I managed to get hold of my pistol and I shot him. After I shot him I took money and boarded a taxi and later counted it and it was R300. I do not know what actually happened to the man. We used the money to buy food for ourselves. Lebanon Gold Mine - Fraser's Stores: We were a unit of five. It was myself as Commander, Lumumba, Small Baby, Tello and Push, the driver. I made the reconnaissance of the place and area. I wrote a letter which contained our demands, to be handed over to the manager of the store. Small Baby was to hand the letter. We went there. I was armed with 9mm pistol, Lumumba with 9mm pistol, Small Baby with AK47, Tello with AK47. Push was the driver. Small Baby and Tello were in the assault group, myself and Lumumba in the support group. Small Baby and Tello entered the shop and handed the letter which contained our demands and at the same time pointed the firearm at the manager. We managed to get R16 000. Nobody was injured or killed. We took the money to Botswana and handed it over to Junior and he gave us R2 000. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act, and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the operations." Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I was under the impression that all the affidavits are here. It's my submission that for all these incidents we did make affidavits. They were all made in 1998, including these ones, all of them for these incidents, but I could see that not all the affidavits are here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, these two affidavits seem to cover four incidents that are still outstanding, of the list. It ...(inaudible) number 6, 8, 9 and 10, according to my record. 10, I assume is just misspelt on the summary, it's Nanceville instead of Mansiville, as it's put in the previous affidavit. So you say there were in fact affidavits covering each one of these? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes Chairperson, all of the incidents, all of them, affidavits were done regarding all of them, regarding all these incidents. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, can you perhaps help in that regard? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not certain of the position here and if the Committee can allow me an adjournment, then I can contact the Analyst in the office to check in the file if we've got other affidavits. CHAIRPERSON The list of incidents, now we obviously must have had some or other indication, some or other record that enabled us to prepare this summary, because this summary I assume is a summary of the Amnesty Committee staff. This one. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, but I think it was drawn from the application of the applicant, where he has this annexure listing all the incidents that he's applying for. MR MBANDAZAYO In fact, Chairperson, I still remember, in his application regarding Elandsberg Gold Mine, I still remember, because he was asked about almost all these incidents when he was applying for them, especially the ones which involved the garages and he was asked at length because the affidavit was there regarding these incidents, though they were not subject of the enquiry at that time. CHAIRPERSON Now the Annexure 1A, from page 4 of the record up to page 9, does that coincide with the incidents on the summary, the incidents that is referred to by the applicant in Annexure 1A? Would you know that? Either one of you. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not in possession of the summary, but the summary that would have been prepared for this hearing would be dealing with only Gauteng matters, leaving out all the Eastern Cape incidents and what he has been already heard on. CHAIRPERSON So the summary - I don't know if you shouldn't just take one, just take a copy ... That summary, Ms Mtanga, if you look at that, does that on the face of it, relate only to Gauteng matters, or what? MS MTANGA ...(inaudible - no microphone) CHAIRPERSON Okay, alright. ... (inaudible - no micro-phone) MS MTANGA Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - no microphone) MS MTANGA Yes, the sequence is the same, Chairperson, except for Kliptown Garage Incident, on the application and annexure it's listed as the fifth incident and then on the summary it's listed as the third incident, but the rest of the sequence is accurate and it follows the annexure sequence. The last incident on the annexure, on page 7, is the Fidelity Guard Incident, which is the last incident in Gauteng, according to the application and that's where the summary also ends, with the Fidelity Guard Incident. JUDGE MOTATA I don't know if we could have regard to page 5, because I see the Lebanon incidents, there is one of AK Stores, Lebanon Gold Mine, Frasers Stores and there would Lebanon Eating House, but the Lebanon AK Stores is missing. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson, for your assistance, that is so. CHAIRPERSON So according to that we should add the Lebanon AK Stores? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON To the list? MS MTANGA To the list. CHAIRPERSON Won't you just physically do it on that list, I think it should now be number 16, ja. Just add it in. So that will be a convenient summary of the contents of Annexure 1A to the applicant's amnesty application. I think, Mr Mbandazayo, what you must ascertain is whether these are the ones that are outstanding, that your client wants to apply for amnesty in respect of, at this session, and if so, then you must lead him on these issues, because it is before us, it is part of the annexure although there are no affidavits immediately available, but perhaps we can overcome that problem by just leading him on these. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I was going to suggest if I can lead him, because he was applied for all these. With regard to others, he has already submitted affidavits with regard to those in Transkei, because we were requested to submit these and it was said it was going to be a chamber matter because no people were injured, and an affidavit was submitted to that effect, with regard to those. I don't know whether there will be a hearing or not, but an affidavit was submitted with regard to others, with the exception of ... Chairperson, for the purposes of completeness then, I will use the annexure from page 4, to deal with these incidents, all of them. Mr Maseko, page 4, I think you have it, can you tell the Committee about the incident, Orlando East Garage Robbery, in 1990. MR MASEKO "That is one of the first operations that we started when we came from exile. We received information from people. We had not yet identified targets at that time. We went to this garage and got information that we might get a lot of money. Unfortunately we only managed to get R300. It was myself, Tello, Lumumba. We were three in this operation. We arrived at this garage and we pointed firearms at them. They used these safes and we could not manage to get a lot of money, that's why we got R300, because the key was nowhere to be found. No-one was injured from our side and those that we found at the garage. That is how the operation went." I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat the names of the other two people that were involved with you in this incident. MR MASEKO It was Lumumba and Tello. T-e-l-l-o. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Yes you may proceed with the others. MR MBANDAZAYO Now what did you do with the money, this R300, Mr Maseko? MR MASEKO Since this amount was not that big, we had to use it for ourselves to ferry us to different places where we wanted to go. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee about Orlando West Garage. MR MASEKO We arrived at this garage during the night. It was myself Tello and Lumumba. They had already locked the safe and we did not get even a cent. No casualties were encountered and we left the garage and got home and slept. Actually, the operation was a failure, we didn't get anything. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you proceed to Dube Garage. MR MASEKO "We had also received information that we would get money at this garage. Unfortunately we did not get anything. We were still three, it was Small Baby, Tello was not part of this operation, Small Baby, Lumumba and myself. We got into this place, but we encountered resistance from the garage owner who had a .38 firearm. The safe was locked. We bought R50 which they had in possession after people had bought petrol at this garage. I would consider as well that this operation was a failure. That will be all." ADV SANDI Was anyone injured? MR MASEKO Yes, the person who had the .38 firearm was injured, he got shot. He got injured in the leg, but ultimately we managed to take the firearm that he had. ADV SANDI What happened to the R50? MR MASEKO We used this R50 to take Small Baby from where he came from. He did not stay in Soweto. He used it to go back to his place where he came from. MR MBANDAZAYO Where was he staying, Small Baby? MR MASEKO At that time he stayed in Bekkersdal location next to Westonaria. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can we proceed to Nancefield Garage. MR MASEKO "We got to this garage at about 2 o'clock in the morning. They used the same system as other garages. Fortunately we managed to get R300 at this garage. People in this operation were myself and Lumumba. We used this money for transport to get to see other PAC comrades." MR MBANDAZAYO Kliptown Garage. MR MASEKO "Kliptown Garage is next to the post office. We decided that since there's conditions and situations, it was the same as other garages, we decided not to attack garages anymore. No-one was injured in this incident and we got back." ADV SANDI Sorry, can I just take you one step backward. The Nancefield Garage incident, did you say if anyone was injured there? MR MASEKO No-one was injured in the Nancefield incident and no-one was killed as well. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you proceed to Lebanon AK Stores. MR MASEKO "After we have realised that garages operated in a similar fashion, we decided to attack shops. We went there to the Lebanon AK Stores, which was a store on the mine. It was myself, Lumumba and Mdu. On arrival at this store, they were just about to close, we pointed firearms at these people and we demanded money. They gave us the money and we took the car as well. We put some equipment which we would use and send to others in camps. Unfortunately when we arrived in Soweto, we came across a roadblock. At this roadblock we started running away. A shooting ensued between us and the police. We left the car together with everything that we seized from the Lebanon AK Stores and ultimately we lost everything. From our side nobody was injured, but since we started shooting randomly, I cannot say whether there were casualties or someone was killed as a result." ADV SANDI How much was taken at Lebanon AK Stores? MR MASEKO I do not know, we have not yet counted the money that we took. It was in a bag and we left it in the car as we came across the roadblock and ran away. ADV SANDI And what kind of goods were taken? MR MASEKO It included clothing, like shoes, lumberjackets, clothing. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you go to Lebanon Eating House. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mbandazayo, just before you go off the Lebanon AK Stores, in the annexure on page 5, paragraph 7A, which I think stands for amount, abbreviation for amount, there is a reference to "People were injured and one was killed" is that incorrect? MR MASEKO That is correct, Chairperson, it is at this Lebanon AK Stores. When we took these clothes there were people who posed resistance to what we were doing, that is when we started shooting and one got injured and I witnessed that, and there was one who was killed, and I saw that person. There was a person killed and one injured at the store. CHAIRPERSON Very well. And it's at the roadblock that you just shot randomly, you're not sure whether anybody was injured? MR MASEKO Yes, at the roadblock shooting ensued, but I cannot tell what happened. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed. MR MBANDAZAYO Lebanon Eating House, Mr Maseko. MR MASEKO "Lebanon Eating House is a shop and on Lebanon Mine. It is next to the Frasers store. It was myself, Lumumba, Tello, Small Baby and Vincent. We managed to get approximately R3 000, and we took the kombi as a getaway vehicle for us. There were two Portuguese people. The other one was shot on the spot. The other one, I don't know whether he was dead or alive. Later on we took this kombi to Botswana." ADV SANDI Did one of these people die? MR MASEKO At that time I was not sure whether they were dead, because both fell to the floor, but later I learnt that one died because he was stabbed, he or she was stabbed. ADV SANDI Where did you hear about that? MR MASEKO Through the print media and others who worked at the Lebanon Gold Mine. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you go, Mr Maseko, to Diepkloof Police Station ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, before you proceed on that. The R3 000 amount, what happened to that? MR MASEKO When we took this kombi to Botswana, we took along this money. Junior gave us money as well, but we took this R3 000 to Botswana. ADV SANDI Just explain, who was Junior? MR MASEKO Junior was my superior at that time, an immediate superior, he was based in Botswana. We reported to him or I would send a courier to him. ADV SANDI Does he have any other names? MR MASEKO I know him as Junior only. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, can you explain the Diepkloof Police Station incident. MR MASEKO "This was one of our first missions after we have arrived from exile. We arrived at this station during the night, it was myself, Lumumba, Small Baby, Tello and Vincent, as our driver. On arrival we started shooting and we threw handgrenades into the station and then thereafter we left. As a result, I cannot tell if there were people killed or people injured, we just shot at the station randomly and threw in handgrenades and left." MS MTANGA Chairperson, may I just ask the applicant to repeat which incident he is referring to? I missed that. CHAIRPERSON It's on the record, page 8, paragraph 13, right at the bottom of that, page 6, "Diepkloof Police Station". Have you got that? MS MTANGA Thank you. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, the Chicken Farm, at page 7, paragraph 14, "Killed a Police Informer". Can you tell the Committee how did this happen, how did you come to know that this person was a police informer. MR MASEKO "Personally I did not know the chicken farm, but Rasta, a person known to me as Rasta, alias Kenneth Mohali, was arrested and Horatio Motchwadi was also arrested after Rasta. Lawrence Manqdela who was my courier, informed me that these people were arrested as a result of this police informer. Such a person was supposed to be eliminated. When I went to this chicken farm I was with Vincent. I was the person who was going to eliminate this informer." MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, proceed, what did you do? Did you eliminate him, how did you eliminate him? MR MASEKO "I went to this person's place, I knocked, as he opened the door I shot at this person. I did not even say a word to this person." ADV SANDI Sorry, what time of the day was this? MR MASEKO It was during the night. ADV SANDI Did you get to know the name of the victim? MR MASEKO I didn't get to know the victim's name to date. MR MBANDAZAYO What type of weapon did you use to kill him? MR MASEKO I used an AK47. ADV SANDI Sorry, just explain something. You say as soon as someone opened the door you opened fire, how did you know that this was the person you were supposed to kill? MR MASEKO It was - he was the only man staying there and we learnt that it was him and Vincent said, "That is the person." Manqdela stated that it is the person who is the informer, this man who opened the door. CHAIRPERSON Was he in fact killed? MR MASEKO I shot him at the door and he died in the house. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear subsequently, or did you witness it yourself that he was dead? MR MASEKO I shot this man at close range and I shot him twice and I shot him on the head. As a result, I know that he was supposed to die. CHAIRPERSON So you assumed that he was dead. Did you hear anything subsequently, confirming that he was dead, or didn't you hear anything further about this incident? MR MASEKO I have not heard anything on this matter to date. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. Mr Mbandazayo? MR MBANDAZAYO Can you proceed to Mohlakeng Police Office. ADV SANDI Sorry, just before that, one little detail. Just for purposes of identifying the exact victim, the person who was killed, where exactly was this? MR MASEKO It was a place next to Kliptown, where shacks were built. ADV SANDI Do you perhaps know the name of the squatter camp? Does this place have a name? MR MASEKO The squatter camp's name is Chicken Farm. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you proceed to number 15, Mohlakeng Police Office. What happened there? MR MASEKO Let me correct something, it is Mohlakeng Post Office. That is a typing error for having typed police station. "It was during the day. It was at the post office. We got into the post office and pointed firearms to the personnel. We got about R3 000. Those were black people. It was in the township. No-one was injured. We took the money and we locked them in the back room somewhere. We crossed the street, got into a taxi and we went deep into the location. Thereafter we went to our RV(?). No-one was shot, no-one was injured at that incident." MR MBANDAZAYO What did you do with the amount of money? MR MASEKO I had to send the money to my superior because it was a lot of money. ADV SANDI Can you just repeat, I did not hear the exact amount. What amount was it? MR MASEKO It was R3 000. MR MBANDAZAYO Now can you tell us about the Mohlakeng Power Station. MR MASEKO "It was during the night when we went to Mohlakeng Power Station. It was myself and Small Baby. There were police officers who used to guard the power station. Our aim was to disarm them of their service pistols. We would shoot at them if they resisted or we would not have to if they did not pose any resistance. It so happened that they resisted and we shot and killed one on the spot. We got one pistol and a shotgun, the so-called pump-action firearm. That is the two firearms we got from these police officers. We reported to our RV, who was in Soweto at that time. These firearms were used by APLA." That is all. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, are you in a position to tell the Committee how far in-between were all these incidents, because when you look, all of them happened in 1990. How far in-between were they? Especially the ones which were involving repossession, where you got money. MR MASEKO Would you repeat, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO What I want to know, Mr Maseko, how far in-between were all these incidents? How long did it take to go to another mission after the first one or the previous one? MR MASEKO They are not that far apart from one another. It can be a matter of three weeks, some two months in-between. When we first arrived in the country we took four months before we started taking any operations. That was to identify targets and information and to scrutinise information that we received. It would take time for us to satisfy ourselves that our mission would be a success, so we would take three months before we go for the next operation and others we would take two months, but the time was not static as three months, it was differing. CHAIRPERSON Was this all in the year 1990? MR MASEKO That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you take the whole period from the first one, of these incidents that we spoke about, till the last one that we spoke about, how many months would you say did that cover? MR MASEKO I can say about a year. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, would I be correct to say that you were the head of this unit called Repossession Unit in APLA, which was code-named Beauty Salon? MR MASEKO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Can you tell the Committee, initially when you came inside the country, the first group, you were the first unit to deal with this aspect of repossession, initially you were reporting to Junior in Botswana, I understand that changed after some time when APLA also established itself and having some members of the High Command inside the country, where did you report to thereafter? MR MASEKO We used to report outside South Africa, in Botswana, or we would send someone to go and report in Botswana, but as time went on we had to establish a unit specially for repossession, however, other units got engaged in repossession. Now our forces lost a bit of direction and they started engaging in repossessions, so we wanted a specialised one which will focus only on repossession. At that time when we reported in Botswana, our leadership was not in the country, however at that time I used to report to Lethlapa Mpahlele when our leadership was not in the country. ADV SANDI Where was he at that stage, Mr Lethlapa Mpahlele? MR MASEKO Are you saying when he was in the country? ADV SANDI Was he outside the country in Botswana also? MR MASEKO He was in Botswana after PAC engaged APLA leadership in it, but the rest of the time he was outside the country. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, I understand then after you have been head of the Repossession Unit, did you establish any other units? Were there any other units which were under your unit? Did you have various units, Repossession Units after this unit now was established, so that it can focus on this repossession? MR MASEKO There were other units that we formed which will assist us. Yes, there were such units. MR MBANDAZAYO Where were they reporting? MR MASEKO They reported to me. MR MBANDAZAYO And in turn you were reporting to Lethlapa Mpahlele? MR MASEKO That is correct. MR MBANDAZAYO Now Mr Maseko, in all these incidents when you arrived inside the country and you said you were starting with some of these small amounts you repossessed, can you approximately tell the Committee how much you used for your own unit and how much did you send to APLA? Can you be able to tell the Committee that? MR MASEKO Well I did not add up all the amounts, but if the amount was more than R3 000, we would have to take it there, but if it was less we would use it for our own things, like transport, food and the like. But if it is more than R3 000, or from R3 000 and above, we would have to take it, or rather report it that we have used so much from what we have repossessed. MR MBANDAZAYO Now for food and other things, were you depending on this money of repossession, or were you having any other source where you get these things, or from members of the PAC? What was happening? MR MASEKO We were rather dependant on this money that we got during operations, but there were PAC members who gave us clothing or food and for our own security we had to use our money. MR MBANDAZAYO Chairperson, I think that's all at this stage, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, I have a few, thank you. CHAIRPERSON While Ms Mtanga is looking, Mr Mbandazayo, did I understand you correctly, were you intending to call a witness in support of this application or not? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I was intending, I'm just waiting for Gen Fihla, he told me that he's on the way, because the whole of this week of course he was ...(indistinct) because Mr Maseko was, some of the Members of the High Command, so he was specifically tasked by APLA to come to Phila Dolo and Maseko's application. CHAIRPERSON So you had Gen Fihla in mind? MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. Before we started I was talking to him on the phone, unfortunately he has to start from the office, you know, so he told me that he's on the way. CHAIRPERSON Very well, I was just checking to see what the logistics are. Ms Mtanga, I interrupted you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Maseko, you indicated that when you were infiltrated into the country, you came with Lumumba, Tello and Small Baby, where are these people now? MR MASEKO I know only the whereabouts of the two. Small Baby was buried early this year. I heard that Tello was buried last year. I don't know the whereabouts of Lumumba until today. MS MTANGA In your operation at Lebanon AK Stores, you mentioned that one of the operatives was Mdu, it was yourself, Mdu and Lumumba, who was this Mdu and how did he come to join your unit? MR MASEKO Mdu is one of the recruits. We trained him. He was also our driver. MS MTANGA You also mention a further name is in the Nancefield Garage incident, you mentioned Patrick, who was Patrick? MR MASEKO Patrick is an APLA guerrilla who was sent after us into the country. MS MTANGA And there's also a further name added in the Lebanon Eating House. You mentioned Vincent who was with you in that incident, who was this Vincent? MR MASEKO Vincent was one of our couriers, he worked at Mohasa. He was one of our drivers. He recently passed away. MS MTANGA Do you know his surname or full names? MR MASEKO Vincent Mama. MS MTANGA The next question that I'm going to ask you is a general question about repossession. What I first would like to know, you say you were infiltrated into the country in 1989, and then you started operating from 1990, what I would like to know from you, the other units that you were operating that - you were the first unit to operate in the country, as a specialising unit in repossessions, after you were established as a unit, was there any other unit that was formed, or were there other units that were formed specifically to deal with repossessions, apart from your unit, other than your unit? MR MASEKO Before we established this unit in South Africa, PAC had other units, but I was specifically established for repossessions and we also created other units. Besides our unit there were other units that we established or created. MS MTANGA Were these also Repossession Units, that is, specialising in repossessions? MR MASEKO They reported to the RU Unit. MS MTANGA Were there units that were formed in Gauteng, in the Gauteng area which specialised in repossessions, that were never established by you or that you were never involved in their establishment? Do you know of any units that were formed in the Gauteng area? MR MASEKO I cannot comment on those that I do not know, I would only comment on those that I have established and those that I know. MS MTANGA In your knowledge, were there other Commanders or people tasked with commanding and establishing units for repossessions, other than yourself, after you had first established the first Repossession Unit in the country? MR MASEKO I do not know such units except those that I've established. MS MTANGA If there were such other units, who would - would you have a name of a senior person who would be able to confirm that information, that the existence of other specialising units that is specialising in repossessions other than your unit who would know that information? Or who would give instructions for such units to be formed. MR MASEKO If they existed, they would have informed me so that we do not create clashes of operations by these units. MS MTANGA Did these units, that is the Repossession Units, at any time co-opt or recruit criminals, who probably were robbery criminals, who were involved in robberies, to form part of your units? Did that ever occur? MR MASEKO We used the criminals who had better information than us, because we only managed to get R50, but these criminals knew that we would get huge amounts of money at different places. MS MTANGA What kind of deal would you have with them, were they paid for what they did with you? MR MASEKO The deal was that they should join APLA and become full members of APLA. We didn't promised them anything, we promised them that they would get the land once Azania is freed. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Has the Panel got any questions? JUDGE MOTATA Just one, Chairperson. What was your RU called? Your Repossession Unit. MR MASEKO Are you referring to the code-name? JUDGE MOTATA Yes, your code-name. MR MASEKO It was called, code-named, Beauty Salon. JUDGE MOTATA Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair, no questions from me. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Was there any significance in that name? MR MASEKO That was a way of hiding the existence of this unit. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't descriptive of the members of the unit? MR MASEKO Not in that fashion. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson. Only one aspect in relation to what the Evidence Leader was asking you. Now you indicated that there were units, though not specifically for repossession inside the country before you came in, what were they specifically for, those units? Were they also involved in repossession, or they were doing both on the offensive and also doing repossession on the other side? What was the position before this unit of yours was specifically tasked for this purpose? MR MASEKO They had an offensive task, these units referred to here. MR MBANDAZAYO That is all, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Maseko, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think your witness has not arrived yet, Mr Mbandazayo. MR MBANDAZAYO Yes, Chairperson, I was looking that it's almost as if we can break for lunch, then I'll be able during the lunch-time to establish where he is exactly now at the present moment, so that when we resume after lunch we can start with him. CHAIRPERSON Were you intending to call any witnesses, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No, Chairperson, that is all. CHAIRPERSON Very well, that seems to be the only remaining witness in this matter, which is the only one that remains on our roll. We will take the luncheon adjournment and we'll reconvene at 2 o'clock, when we hopefully can deal with the remaining evidence. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, you wanted to lead the testimony of Gen Fihla, in support of the application of Mr Maseko, and we mentioned to you during the adjournment that it appears that Gen Fihla might be of some assistance, his testimony might be of some assistance in the matter where Mr Maseko, in respect of the incident where Mr Maseko and the matter that follows his, the application of Moti, where the two applicants were jointly involved in, which was going to stand over until we deal with the Moti matter, and we raised the possibility with you to explore with Gen Fihla, whether we can arrange for his testimony to stand over until tomorrow, when we deal with that matter, and whether he would then be in a position to present his testimony in support of Mr Maseko, tomorrow. Have you got any indication whether that might be possible? MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. Chairperson, I've canvassed that with Gen Fihla, Gen Fihla has agreed to give his testimony tomorrow morning after the incident where Mr Maseko is involved with Mr Moti. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much for your assistance in that regard Mr Mbandazayo, that will assist with some practical and logistical difficulties that we would have had otherwise. We appreciate your assistance in that regard. Now in respect of the incidents that we have concluded today, we are in your hands really, you know, whether you want to address us on those issues at this stage, separately, or whether you want to address us on all of Mr Maseko's incidents tomorrow, it's really entirely up to you. MR MBANDAZAYO Thank you, Chairperson. In view of the fact that Gen Fihla is no longer going to give his testimony today, then also I would like also my argument to be after he has given testimony, as I wanted him to support also these applications which have been heard today. So I would like to address the Committee after his testimony tomorrow morning. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Very well, that does seem to be in the best interest of Mr Maseko, also in respect of the incidents that we have already heard. Yes, it seems that we will then have to stand the matter down until tomorrow when we deal with the incident where he was jointly, Mr Maseko was jointly involved with Mr Moti, and then you can deal with the argument at the conclusion of those proceedings. Very well. Ms Mtanga, is that acceptable insofar as you are concerned? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, I agree with it. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Well under those circumstances, we are now going to adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning when we will deal with the remaining incident in respect of Mr Maseko and the application in toto of Mr Moti. We will then adjourn and we'll reconvene here at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS