amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-07-27 JOHANNESBURG 4 MARTIN MPHATLA RAMPOMANE AM5297/97 MURDER OF MONDE MPHATENI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54381&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200727jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Rampomane. MARTIN MPHATLA RAMPOMANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Mr Rampomane, I am showing to you a document here, page 142, Chairperson, which is an amnesty application form. Is this your application form? MR RAMPOMANE Yes, it is. MR KOOPEDI Now at the back of this application form on page 147, just above the words deponent, there is a signature. Is that your signature? MR RAMPOMANE Yes, this is mine. MR KOOPEDI I wish to further refer you to a letter which was - that is page 153 Chairperson, which was a response to queries by the TRC. It's unsigned Chairperson. This letter, was it written by you? MR RAMPOMANE Yes, it was written by me. MR KOOPEDI And do you confirm the contents thereof? MR RAMPOMANE Yes. MR KOOPEDI Now is it correct that you are appearing before this Honourable Committee for the killing of one Monde Mphateni? MR RAMPOMANE Yes, I do. MR KOOPEDI You have heard the evidence given by your co-applicant, Mr Thwala. Can you confirm that? MR RAMPOMANE Yes, I can, but I will be very much comfortable in my mother tongue, seTswana, please. MR KOOPEDI We have an interpreter for Setswana, Chairperson. JUDGE MOTATA And if you could probably go to channel 3, if I'm not mistaken, channel 3, it would be interpreted back to you in Setswana. INTERPRETER That's correct, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI Now your co-applicant has told this Honourable Committee that Monde Mphateni was delivered or given to you by a unit that had arrested him, is that correct? MR RAMPOMANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI He went on to say that at some point after Mphateni had forgotten or allegedly forgotten to show you this house that he was going to show you, there was an incident that led to Monde Mphateni's shooting. Can you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened and what your role was in this incident? MR RAMPOMANE we were at Lobatsi. We went there because Monde wanted to show us the house, that is after they have killed our people in Gaberone. On our way from Lobatsi, Monde asked us, he said he wanted to urinate. We agreed. We stopped the car and after that - I was sitting with him at the back of the car. We went after the car and after we had disembarked from the car, he pointed a firearm to me and that was the first time that I realised that he had a gun with him and I unlocked my safety latch and started shooting, trying to protect myself. MR KOOPEDI How many times did you shoot at him? MR RAMPOMANE Twice on the head, Chairperson. MR KOOPEDI And what happened thereafter? MR RAMPOMANE After I had shot him, he fell down and we had a problem as to what we were going to do with him, because we didn't want to carry him in the car. We drained the petrol from the car and we doused him with petrol and set him alight and we went then to Gaberone. After two days we were arrested in Gaberone. We were arrested by Botswana police in Gaberone. We appeared in Court there, but because there was not enough evidence to convict us, we were acquitted as a result of that. MR KOOPEDI Now you have been advised that for you to qualify for amnesty you have to disclose all the relevant facts before this Committee. Do you consider yourself as having discharged that duty, having told the whole truth? MR RAMPOMANE I don't think there's another thing that I have left. Everything that I have told this Committee is the truth and in as far as my participation in this incident is concerned. MR KOOPEDI It is also important, that is for you to qualify for amnesty, to prove that or to tell this Honourable Committee that your deeds were politically motivated. Now were your deeds politically motivated and if so, how? That is the deed relating to the killing of Monde Mphateni. MR RAMPOMANE I would wish to tell this Committee that when I joined the ANC, I went to exile and I received my training in Africa and also in Europe and I came back to South Africa in 1978. Amongst the people I have worked with, most of them have since died. In 1979 ...(intervention) MR KOOPEDI If I could stop you. The political motivation I want you to tell this Honourable Committee about is in relation to Monde Mphateni, in particular on this day, what you did which ultimately culminated in the death of Monde Mphateni, was that politically motivated. If it was ...(intervention) JUDGE MOTATA Before he responds, he has confirmed the contents of page 153 and if you look at paragraph 4 and 6, wouldn't that cover the question you have posed to Mr Rampomane. MR KOOPEDI I'm indebted to His Lordship and I will not proceed with that question, Chairperson. I had overlooked that fact. And finally, did you benefit anything materially yourself? Did you get anything out of the whole enterprise? MR RAMPOMANE No we were not paid for anything that we were doing. I am happy that I managed to save the lives of my colleagues who were in Botswana who were with me at that time, but as a result of what I did, I never received any reward. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, that concludes the evidence-in-chief of Mr Rampomane. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, any questions? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Has the Panel got any questions? JUDGE MOTATA I've got none, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI No questions Chair, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination Chairperson and that will be the evidence to be tendered on behalf of this application of this applicant, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, any evidence? MS MTANGA No evidence, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED ADV SANDI You're not opposing the application, Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi have you got any submissions you want to make? MR KOOPEDI Indeed so, Chairperson, a very brief submission. MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, you have before you two applicants whom I submit were members of a political organisation being the ANC and its armed wing Umkhonto weSizwe. It's my further submission Chairperson that the evidence which is in short that Joe Mamasela and one Monde Mphateni came back to Botswana after having been arrested by the South African Police. They were perceived to be askaris, they were there to kill, in as far as the applicants were concerned, members of the ANC. They were arrested. In the course of interrogation one of them, being Monde Mphateni, tried to escape and in the attempt to escape, he produced a firearm and he was shot and killed at that stage. He was later burned to hide his identity. The applicants were arrested but subsequently they were acquitted. It is my submission Chairperson that all the relevant facts have been placed before you. It's my further submission that the actions by the two applicants were nothing but political and it is finally my submission that there wasn't anything materially gained by these applicants and it's my submission therefore Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, that you should consider granting amnesty to these applicants. And perhaps just for completeness sake, Chairperson, there is another Martin mentioned, Martin Sere mentioned in the application form o Mr Rampomane. That is on page 143, Chairperson. This Martin Sere passed away sometime this year and he had applied for amnesty for this deed, but at some stage we withdrew his application because he was no more. Thank you Chairperson, that is all. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Yes, Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'll leave this matter in your hands. NO ARGUMENT BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Anything further that you want to add, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Nothing further, thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. That concludes the evidence in this matter and the arguments. We will consider the application as well as the evidence and the submissions and we will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as the circumstances permit. We will therefore under those circumstances reserve our decision in this matter. Mr Koopedi we thank you very much for your assistance in this matter, it's appreciated and Ms Mtanga again, we appreciate your assistance. I assume that that will take care of the roll for this week? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, that is all. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well under those circumstances, we are continuing the session in this venue next week. We will therefore adjourn the proceedings and reconvene here on this coming Monday morning at 10 o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS