amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-08-14 IDASA, PRETORIA 1 SCHALK JAN VISSER, ABDUCTION OF JABULANI SIDNEY MSIBI AM5000/97 DE KOCK 7 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54397&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200814pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. The Panel has changed as most of you would be aware from the bundle of documents. My name is Motata, I will be chairing these hearings and on my right I have Adv Bosman and on my left I have Adv Sandi. Today we'll be hearing the applications of Messrs Eugene Alexander de Kock, amnesty number 0066/96, Willem Albertus Nortje, amnesty number 3764/96, Izak Daniel Bosch, amnesty number 3765/96, Willem Frederick Schoon, amnesty number 4396/96, Schalk Jan Visser, amnesty number 5000/97, Gert Visser, amnesty number 5002/97 and Daniel Jacobus Greyling, amnesty number 5007/97. I will the legal representatives ... who is the one more? MS PATEL The one more is Frank McCarter, Honourable Chair-person, amnesty application number 4063/96. The application was in fact added on and it's to be found in bundle 2. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll have the last, Frank McCarter, amnesty number 4063/96. I'll request the legal representatives to place themselves on record. Could we start with Mr Eugene Alexander de Kock? MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is S W Hugo and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hugo. For Nortje? MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Lamey from the firm Rooth and Wessels, I represent Mr Nortje, as well as well as applicant Izak Daniel Bosch. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Schoon? MR VISSER May it please you, Chairperson and Members of the Committee, my name is Louis Visser, I appear for W F Schoon, instructed by Wagener and Muller Attorneys. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Visser, not as in legal representative. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson. I'm Louisa van der Walt and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr S J Visser. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Gert Visser? MR PRINSLOO As it pleases the Honourable Chairperson, I'm Harry Prinsloo and I'm appearing on behalf of Gert Visser and Daniel Jacobus Greyling. As it pleases you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Prinsloo. Mr Frank McCarter? MR NEL As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. My name is Christo Nel, I act on behalf of Mr McCarter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nel. And lastly but not least, are we coming to the end? Are there other interested parties? MS PATEL For the victims, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Makondo, which victims? MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. I'm representing the Msibi family. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Makondo. Ms Patel, you must be interested in the proceedings. MS PATEL I am as well, but besides myself there's my learned colleague Mr Cornelius who needs to address you as well in respect of his client, Mr Vermeulen. But for the record, I'm Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. Thank you. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON I hadn't forgotten you, because you are still going to bring an application as well in these proceedings. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. I've tabled an application which I've given to all my colleagues as well as to the Committee, of the inclusion of Nicolaas Johannes Vermeulen, as an applicant in this matter. I have included in the application his full affidavit as well as the annexed application which was bound into the Sedibe incident. What happened in short, Judge, is that when he drew the original application he confused the Sedibe name with Msibi, and when he perused the application in the matters of Sedibe, he realised that he made a mistake and in fact referred to Msibi. Judge, you will note that from all the other applications it is supported that he's referred to in all the applications and he is in fact an applicant. So I pray that this Committee grants an order that he may be included as an applicant and that we may participate in the proceedings. For the record, I am Wim Cornelius, I'm acting on behalf of Mr Vermeulen. His application number, I think for the sake of completeness, is 4358/96. I did not include that on the application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. I would not say I'm undermining anybody here, I'll start with seniority. Mr Louis Visser, any opposition to the amendment? MR VISSER Not today, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No objection, Mr Chairman. MR HUGO No objection, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No objection, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No objection, Chairperson, thank you. MR MAKONDO No objection, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL I have no objection, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? MS PATEL No objection, thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, have I referred to you? MR LAMEY Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Oh, thank you. Mr Cornelius, firstly let me just find out, has he applied in the Sedibe matter? MR CORNELIUS He's applied in the Sedibe matter, Judge, and I think it will just be appropriate then to withdraw the application in the matter of Sedibe, for the sake of completeness. CHAIRPERSON And then he'll only be going on on the Jabulani Sydney Msibi matter? MR CORNELIUS That is quite right, Judge, thank you. ADV BOSMAN Mr Cornelius, I seem to recall that the Sedibe matter was on the roll on a previous occasion. MR CORNELIUS That is correct, Advocate Bosman. What we did, I tabled the problem I had at that time and I discussed it, I think with Ms Patel, I'm not sure, or one of the ...(intervention) ADV BOSMAN You have not filed a sort of withdrawal notice yet, have you? MR CORNELIUS No, we indicated to the ...(indistinct) that we are withdrawing and they said it will be appropriate to bring this application at this hearing, that is why I'm only tabling this application now. But if necessary I'll file a formal withdrawal today. ADV BOSMAN Well once of course the Chairperson's made the ruling, I think that should be done as soon as possible. MR CORNELIUS It will be seen to. CHAIRPERSON Your application is granted and I would say, during the course of the day, would you formally file a notice of withdrawal in respect of Glory Sedibe? MR CORNELIUS I thank the Committee for the order, thank you. CHAIRPERSON What order are we going to have? I see on the bundles we have Mr Eugene Alexander de Kock, but I'm in your hands who wants to start first. MR VISSER Chairperson, at this point everybody always looks at me, so I'll start off by saying the following, that I'm not starting off with the evidence, in this particular case, Chairperson. There was some background that happened prior to the abduction and we thought it fit and proper to start with the background leading up and we will try to lead the evidence in chronological order, as people came into the matter as it went along. I think it will make more sense, and all my learned friends are in agreement with that proposal. So that would mean that Ms van der Walt will start first with Brig Visser. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, I think it will tidy even the record, it will look at least decent or readable I suppose. Thank you, Mr Visser. Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT That is correct, Chairperson, it has been decided as such and I call Mr S J Visser. Thank you. SCHALK JAN VISSER (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. You may be seated, Mr Visser. You may proceed, Ms van der Walt. EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, your application can be found in the first bundle from page 15 to 17, that is the formal application and the incident for which you have applied for amnesty today, is from page 18 to 20, and the political motivation can be found from page 21 to 28, is that correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You are applying today for the abduction of Mr Msibi from Swaziland, could you just sketch the background to the Committee, the background which led to the abduction of Mr Msibi. MR S J VISSER "During the '80s, Chairperson, I realised on the basis of Intelligence investigations, that the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch could possibly be infiltrated by an ANC member and that information could be conveyed to the ANC. A process of elimination was followed and it was determined with relevant certainty that the leakage had occurred in Nelspruit and that W/O Malaza could have been the possible culprit. After a monitoring action of Malaza by the Senior Superintendent Visser from the Security Branch, this suspicion was confirmed. Malaza was brought to the Head Office where he was interrogated by the former Brig Stadler." MS VAN DER WALT May I just interrupt you. Were you present during this interrogation? MR S J VISSER No, I was not present during this interrogation in Pretoria. MS VAN DER WALT Very well. MR S J VISSER "During the interrogation it was also established, according to my knowledge, that Malaza had had liaison with two other members of the Security Police, namely Rabuli and Mokgabudi, and had manipulated them into providing information for the ANC." CHAIRPERSON Is that personal knowledge, Mr Visser, or did this emanate from the interrogation? MR S J VISSER It came to my knowledge after Malaza had been interrogated and after it had come to light that he had had liaison with other members of the force. MS VAN DER WALT And was any action planned after you had obtained this information? MR S J VISSER Planning was undertaken at the Head Office of the Security Branch, to identify his instructor in Swaziland. I was never involved with the planning, but I was aware of it. MS VAN DER WALT And did you receive any subsequent instructions? MR S J VISSER Subsequently, I was present at the Oshoek border post with Maj-Gen Stadler and Brig Schoon, as well as Senior Superintendent Visser and W/O Greyling, as well as members of the Vlakplaas unit and Col Eugene de Kock. During this time, Malaza was taken over the border to Swaziland, so that his handler could be identified. MS VAN DER WALT And what happened subsequently? MR S J VISSER "At a later stage, Col de Kock came back over the border with a black man by the name of Msibi. Msibi was a trained MK member of the ANC, and he was in control of the Military machinery of the ANC in Swaziland. MS VAN DER WALT How do you know that Msibi was a trained MK member? MR S J VISSER This was based upon security reports which were at the disposal of the Security Branch. These reports confirmed that he was indeed an ANC member. MS VAN DER WALT May I just ask you, when Mr Msibi was brought across the border, do you know whether or not he was assaulted in any way, in your presence? MR S J VISSER I am aware that he was indeed assaulted. MS VAN DER WALT Where was this, was this at the border post? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know who assaulted him? MR S J VISSER I'm not entirely certain who was involved, but he was assaulted by members in my presence. MS VAN DER WALT Was he interrogated in your presence? MR S J VISSER Yes, in general terms, he was interrogated there and then taken to Pretoria, for further detention. MS VAN DER WALT And when you say that he was taken to Pretoria, do you know where in Pretoria he was detained? MR S J VISSER He was taken to a premises at Daisy, as far as I can recall. This was in Pretoria. MS VAN DER WALT In your application you state on page 20 that at a later stage, Msibi was transferred to Eastern Transvaal, why was he transferred to Eastern Transvaal? MR S J VISSER That is correct, Chairperson, upon my request he was transferred to Eastern Transvaal and he was detained at the Witrivier Police Station, in order to make an attempt to reoriented him and so doing obtain information regarding the ANC activities in Swaziland. MS VAN DER WALT Do you have any knowledge regarding an incident where Judge Goldstone was involved? MR S J VISSER Yes, I am aware of that, I was informed of it. MS VAN DER WALT You don't have personal knowledge of it, but what was the information that you received? MR S J VISSER The information that I received was that Judge Goldstone had visited the Brits Police Station and had viewed Msibi there while Msibi was being detained there. MS VAN DER WALT Is this the reason why you requested him to be transferred to Eastern Transvaal, or what was the actual reason for your request for his transfer? MR S J VISSER I believe that Msibi could indeed be capable of providing further particulars to us regarding ANC activities in Swaziland, and that due to the fact that we were responsible for Intelligence work in Swaziland, we needed to be able to interrogate him and obtain information from him. MS VAN DER WALT Did you obtain any information from him, was he willing to cooperate? MR S J VISSER He was willing to cooperate, he declared himself as such and later he was handed over to a former Brigadier, who would deal with him as an informer. MS VAN DER WALT Why was it necessary to remove Msibi from Swaziland? MR S J VISSER He was a member of the Transvaal machinery, he was connected to the ANC Intelligence structure and I also believe that he was involved in the planning of infiltration, the placement of landmines and bombs, in restaurants and so forth. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Visser, you then apply today before the Honourable Committee, for conspiracy to abduct as well as abduction, is that correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Furthermore, you are applying for the assault which took place in your presence, although you yourself did not participate in the assault. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And furthermore, are you applying for defeating the ends of justice because you did not disclose the true course of events in South Africa, pertaining to the abduction of Msibi? MR S J VISSER That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT As well as any civil liability which may emanate from these deeds, is that correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is my application. MS VAN DER WALT Did you draw any financial advantage or personal advantage from the abduction of Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER Absolutely nothing. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms van der Walt. Mr Hugo, any cross-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Visser, can you recall how many persons from the Vlakplaas contingency crossed the border with Mr Malaza in order to abduct Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER No, I cannot say precisely how many persons went along. MR HUGO Very well. Can you tell us whether or not you can recall that the assault which took place at the border post, whether Mr de Kock was part of this assault? MR S J VISSER I cannot specifically, but it is possible that this may have taken place in the process. MR HUGO Well then let me put it to you that Mr de Kock stated that it is indeed possible that he may have participated in the assault in the regard that he may have dealt a few blows. Do you think that would be possible? MR S J VISSER Yes, it is possible. MR HUGO Then with regard to the initial planning phase, was any consideration given to the killing of Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER Not as far as I know. MR HUGO And it was also not told to you from within the upper echelons of the rank structure that it was their intention to kill him? MR S J VISSER No. MR HUGO With regard to Mr de Kock's position you would most probably agree that he was subordinate to you as well as to Brig Schoon, and that he acted based upon the strength of your orders. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR HUGO I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Visser. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, just to provide some background for the Committee, we are aware of the historic perspective that in the beginning of the '80s, a summit took place in Simon's Town, where certain divisions were made for actions by the Security Forces against what was known at that stage as terrorists or revolutionaries, is that correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER And you were stationed in the Eastern Transvaal? MR S J VISSER Yes, I was the Divisional Commander of the Eastern Transvaal region. MR VISSER And this brought you into close proximity with the problems originating within Swaziland? MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR VISSER And if I understand correctly, it is also your comprehension that with regard to the Simon's Town summit, the Security Police acted in Swaziland and not the Defence Force. MR S J VISSER Yes, that was the decision. MR VISSER You have already referred to this, but would it be correct for me to say that from 1986 onwards there was a serious intensification in actions and acts of terrorism within South Africa, which were launched from Swaziland? MR S J VISSER Yes, there were numerous cases. MR VISSER You have already stated in your evidence that Mr Msibi was in control of the Military machinery of the ANC in Swaziland, but wouldn't it instead be correct to say that he was the Head of Intelligence of the ANC in Swaziland? MR S J VISSER He was the Head of the Intelligence division, but he was also involved by nature of the situation, in the Transvaal machinery which conducted planning. MR VISSER Yes. And his contribution or his activities for example, did this involve among others, the assistance to persons who were in exile from South Africa to receive training abroad, in order to return again to South Africa? MR S J VISSER Yes, it is possible. MR VISSER Well please say if you are not aware of these things. You say that you read security reports pertaining to him, do you know whether or not he was involved in the provision of arms and ammunition, for example? MR S J VISSER I cannot recall. MR VISSER You cannot say. Well, then let's leave it at that. According to the norms which were applied at the Security Branch of the Police during those years, would we have been able to describe Mr Msibi as a target of the Security Branch? MR S J VISSER Yes, we would have. MR VISSER And we are aware from the numerous amnesty applications that many targets of the Security Branch were indeed eliminated. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR VISSER Both internally and externally in some of the neighbouring States. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR VISSER Now in this case apparently it was decided not to eliminate Mr Msibi, but rather to attempt to recruit him. MR S J VISSER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the advantage to that? According to you as a Security man, if you were able to recruit an important ANC person rather than eliminating him? MR S J VISSER He would have been in a position to provide further information to us regarding further planning pertaining to actions by the ANC in the RSA. MR VISSER And were the Security Branch's actions based upon the information that you received from informers and coverage agents? MR S J VISSER We have a report here which Ms Patel gave us this morning, I just want to ask you, I'm not going to refer to the report as such, but apparently according to Mr Msibi, he was offered money, I just want to know whether or not you are the person who offered him money to persuade him to act as - Chairperson, I believe we'll hand it up later if necessary, at this stage it's not necessary to hand it up ... CHAIRPERSON You may proceed on those basis, at the time when it's handed up we will mark it. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. In which he states that an offer of R2 000 was made to him to cooperate with the Security Branch, are you aware of this? MR S J VISSER I was not present, but I am aware that money was paid out to him after he declared his willingness to cooperate with us. MR VISSER And according to your knowledge, would further amounts have been paid over to him, or was it only this one amount? MR S J VISSER He would have been paid on a regular basis. MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Brigadier Visser, the assault which took place at the Oshoek border post, I deduce from your evidence and from your impression that it was not a serious and a lengthy assault, am I correct? MR S J VISSER No, it didn't last very long. MR LAMEY He had another destination and that was to go to Pretoria the next day, where further interrogation would be conducted. MR S J VISSER Upon the same day of his abduction he was taken to Pretoria. MR LAMEY Who had vested interests in his abduction and his interrogation? MR S J VISSER The Generals, such as Gen Stadler and other members of the Security Branch. MR LAMEY Do you also know that he was transferred by means of Army helicopter to the Intelligence division of the Defence Force? MR S J VISSER I'm not aware of that. MR LAMEY I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Visser, are you aware of the fact that two former members of the Security Branch who were stationed at Kompol in Pretoria, were prosecuted due to the fact that they had provided top secret information to the ANC, via Mr Malaza to Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER Yes, I'm aware of that. MR PRINSLOO And are you aware of the fact that both those members were prosecuted in the Regional Court, regarding various charges and that Mr Msibi indeed testified against those two members as a State witness? MR S J VISSER Yes, I am aware of this. MR PRINSLOO And are you also aware that Mr Msibi, from within his position in Swaziland, was the Head of Military Intelligence? Did you have that information or not? MR S J VISSER I was aware of such information. MR PRINSLOO And by nature of his position he occupied a very high-ranking position which would have brought him into contact with much information. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And would that information have been valuable to you? MR S J VISSER Yes, it would have been valuable to me. MR PRINSLOO And specifically the involvement of a member of the Security Branch in Nelspruit, a Mr Malaza whom you have already given evidence about, who gave information to the ANC and recruited other persons, was it important for you to determine what precisely Mr Malaza's role was with Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER That is correct, it was crucial to me. MR PRINSLOO And would that information have hampered any Security Branch investigations against the ANC, if Mr Msibi had not been abducted? MR S J VISSER Yes, it would have placed the Security actions at a disadvantage. MR PRINSLOO Was it a matter of national interest for you, in terms of abducting him? MR S J VISSER Yes, it was important to eliminate him. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've no questions for Mr Visser. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Makondo? Firstly, Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Makondo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, you said Mr Msibi was - or Mr Malaza was monitored, can you give details as to what came out of that monitoring? MR S J VISSER Could you just repeat the last part of your question please, I could not hear it. MR MAKONDO You talked of Mr Malaza being monitored, can you give the details and the outcome thereof. MR S J VISSER Reports that came from different sources, we compared them with each other and on this basis we then decided that information, or it seemed that information was leaked from Nelspruit, and we could point a finger at Malaza. MR MAKONDO I heard you saying it was Visser who was monitoring him, am I correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, it was Col Visser, he was a Senior Superintendent Visser, he did the monitoring. He was the Branch Commander at that stage. MR MAKONDO Now what other sources are you talking about when you say from different sources? MR S J VISSER We handled different informants who provided us with intelligence reports. MR MAKONDO Is it not proper to say exactly what I'm asking, like X, Y and Z were the people who were helping in the monitoring? MR S J VISSER No, at this stage I won't be able to give you the details of it. MR MAKONDO Why not? MR S J VISSER I cannot recall and I cannot give you that specific - I cannot recall that specific information. MR MAKONDO You talked of believing from your sources of the role that Mr Msibi was doing, am I correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, because of information reports that we received, I was aware that he was involved in the ANC, that he was a trained ANC member. MR MAKONDO And the role you talk about, was it ever confirmed or you took it from your sources only? MR S J VISSER It was at a later stage confirmed that he was a member of the ANC and that he did fulfil these roles. MR MAKONDO His involvement with Malaza, did you confirm the interaction perhaps? MR S J VISSER It was confirmed on the hand of the information that Malaza himself provided us with. MR MAKONDO And the assault, can you detail the assault at the border, when you were present? MR S J VISSER He was shaken and there could have been blows. MR MAKONDO I have with me here a copy of a newspaper, The New Nation, page 4 thereof of December 1999, which I believe everyone is having. - '89, Chairperson, thank you. I beg leave to hand it over to the Commission if they don't have any. CHAIRPERSON We do have copies. MR MAKONDO Chairperson, please may it be marked A. CHAIRPERSON The New Nation, page 4, December 1989, will be marked Exhibit A. You may proceed. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. This is the press conference that Mr Msibi gave after his release and I will particularly concentrate on the border where you said you were involved ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's say an excerpt. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chair. I'll particularly concentrate on the border, his report as to what happened there. He says on the second column, the third paragraph - no, the fourth one which starts with: "I was lifted and place in a jeep" Do you find it? MR S J VISSER Yes, I have this paragraph, yes. MR MAKONDO He describes there what happened, he says amongst others, adhesive tape was put on his mouth and then he said that an iron leg was placed on his feet, and you have said there were only a few slaps and he was just shaken around. MR S J VISSER At that stage I was not present, I was on the South African side of the border and this occurred, apparently, on the Swaziland side of the border. CHAIRPERSON To be precise, he says the adhesive tape was removed, not placed. I don't think that's the true reading of the paragraph you're referring to. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. He says in the next paragraph, he says: "One of the white men said 'welcome to South Africa'. I take it that these things were happening in the border in South Africa. MR S J VISSER Yes, it's possible that somebody could have said that. MR MAKONDO But you never saw an iron leg put on his feet? MR S J VISSER No, I can't remember anything like that. I cannot recall. MR MAKONDO What is it that you can recall perhaps? MR S J VISSER I cannot remember anything about the iron cuffs that were placed round his legs. MR MAKONDO When he was handed over, what was his condition? MR S J VISSER He moved by himself, he walked in. It was a clubhouse at the border post and there was nothing apparently wrong with him. MR MAKONDO Was he interrogated at that time? MR S J VISSER He was interrogated very shortly in this clubhouse. MR MAKONDO Can you give a rough estimation of the time period? MR S J VISSER I cannot say exactly, but it could have been half an hour or fifteen minutes. MR MAKONDO During the interrogation, was there further assaults on him? During that interrogation, was he further assaulted? MR S J VISSER Yes, he was assaulted. MR MAKONDO Will you please detail that. MR S J VISSER I've already testified that I cannot remember specifically, but I am aware that he was slapped, shoved and he was assaulted in the process. MR MAKONDO Do you remember if his head was hit against the wall? MR S J VISSER I cannot recall that, no. MR MAKONDO Do you remember perhaps that his toes were stepped on? MR S J VISSER I cannot recall that, no. MR MAKONDO But you were present. MR S J VISSER Yes, I was present. MR MAKONDO Were you the most senior officer there? MR S J VISSER No, Chairperson. MR MAKONDO Were you in charge of the interrogation? MR S J VISSER No, Chairperson. MR MAKONDO Do you know perhaps who was in charge and who was the most senior? MR S J VISSER It was Gen Stadler and Brig Schoon was present. They are both my seniors. MR MAKONDO So from the interrogation was he taken, after your 30 minutes that you have said, was he taken direct to Pretoria? MR S J VISSER Yes, that is as far as I can recall. MR MAKONDO I'm asking you because from the report he says that he gave the interrogators information to go and take documents in Mbabane, is that correct? MR S J VISSER I'm not aware of that. MR MAKONDO You don't remember if some documents were brought during his interrogation? MR S J VISSER No, I'm not aware of that. MR MAKONDO What information did he give you during that interrogation? MR S J VISSER He did not say much, Mr Chairperson. MR MAKONDO The little that he said, what did he say? MR S J VISSER I cannot specifically recall what he said. MR MAKONDO Can you perhaps generally remember what he highlighted ...(indistinct) MR S J VISSER I cannot remember something specific that he said. MR MAKONDO Mr Visser, what did you get from him during that interrogation? MR S J VISSER Could you just repeat your question please. MR MAKONDO During that interrogation, what did you get from him? MR S J VISSER I cannot remember that he said anything specifically or pertinently, that is why we transported him to Pretoria, so that he can be interrogated further, Chairperson. MR MAKONDO Was it not part of the plan that he was going to be taken to Pretoria? MR S J VISSER It was part of the plan, yes. MR MAKONDO So taking him to Pretoria, it was not because you got nothing, it was part of the plan. MR S J VISSER Yes, it was part of the planning that he will be taken to Pretoria. MR MAKONDO So during your 30 minutes interrogation you got nothing from him? MR S J VISSER I cannot remember that he said anything pertinently or that anything came to light. MR MAKONDO Do you perhaps remember what you wanted to get from him at that time? MR S J VISSER I believe it would have been - even though I was not personally involved in the interrogation, I believe they wanted to get information concerning planned operations of ANC members in Swaziland. MR MAKONDO The number of people involved, can you estimate how many were there, including the ones that brought him over the border? MR S J VISSER There were quite few, it could possibly be six to eight people who at that stage were in the clubhouse, Chairperson. MR MAKONDO The court case where he testified, when was it? MR S J VISSER I can't remember the date. MR MAKONDO The year? MR S J VISSER It was shortly after Malaza walked out as an agent for the ANC, in other words it had to be in the '80s. MR MAKONDO Could it have been later than '89? MR S J VISSER I cannot confirm if it was later or not, Mr Chairperson. MR MAKONDO When he testified was it after he was released from his abduction and detention? MR S J VISSER Yes, it was after he was released and after he was reconciled with his mother. MR MAKONDO Do you know the Regional Court where he appeared? MR S J VISSER No, I do not know specifically where this court was or which court it was. MR MAKONDO The people he testified against, do you remember them? MR S J VISSER The police members who were involved were Mokgabudi and Rabuli, the two members who were involved in the Security Branch in Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON Were you present at the court? MR S J VISSER No, I was not. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Are these the similar police who suspected that Malaza is getting information from him? MR S J VISSER Yes, these are the two people who were manipulated by Malaza. MR MAKONDO In Vlakplaas, do you remember how long did he stay there? MR S J VISSER No, I cannot give specific time spans or periods. MR MAKONDO May I suggest six months perhaps? MR S J VISSER At this stage I cannot confirm how long it was. MR MAKONDO During his stay in Vlakplaas, do you know of the assault and torture that he underwent? MR S J VISSER I would not be able to say. MR MAKONDO The decision to take him to the Eastern Transvaal, whose was it? MR S J VISSER It was on my request, Mr Chairperson. MR MAKONDO When was that? MR S J VISSER It was in the '80s, I do not know the specific date. MR MAKONDO Did you make that order 6, 3, 5 months after he was in Vlakplaas? Time period. MR S J VISSER He was within the Pretoria area for quite a while and that was afterwards that he was transferred and it was therefore not necessary to do further interrogations myself. MR MAKONDO During his staying in Vlakplaas, what did your Intelligence department get from him? MR S J VISSER No information was specifically conveyed to me concerning this. MR MAKONDO Then why did you want him to come to the Eastern Transvaal? MR S J VISSER Because he had a relatively senior position within the ANC and he would have been able to provide me with information concerning planning and then to plan an offensive movement. MR MAKONDO Before you recalled him did he break when he was in Vlakplaas? MR S J VISSER What do you mean when you say "break"? MR MAKONDO Did he give vital information? MR S J VISSER When he was transferred to the Eastern Transvaal he was still not willing to cooperate. MR S J VISSER Just for the record, Mr Interpreter, I should say, "he was to an extent not willing". The translation did not exactly correspond with the evidence that was given. Just for the record. MR MAKONDO Thank you. Was it perhaps your thinking that you could get more information from him? MR S J VISSER Yes, I was convinced that he could have provided important information and that is why I asked Greyling and Visser to attempt to reorientate him. MR MAKONDO Was he reorientated? MR S J VISSER Yes, he was. MR MAKONDO Did he give you information then? MR S J VISSER He was then handed over to Gen Buchner who then handled him as an informer, and I had no further - or I received no further reports, specific reports from this General. MR MAKONDO For how long did he stay in the Eastern Transvaal? MR S J VISSER I cannot specifically recall the dates, but it was for a month or a bit more than a month. Maybe some of the other members can testify about the time in which he was held there. MR MAKONDO I'm asking you because one of the applicants says he refused to be an informer, he says he never became one, what do you say? MR S J VISSER Initially he refused to become an informant and at a later stage he did decide to become an informant. That was after a period of time, after a period of reorientation or detention that he conceded. MR MAKONDO So are you saying prior to his accidental release by Judge Goldstone, he was an informer? MR S J VISSER Could you just please repeat your question. MR MAKONDO Let me rephrase it. Did he become an informer prior to his release or after his release? MR S J VISSER He said he would an informant before he was released. MR MAKONDO So did he act as an informer during his detention? MR S J VISSER Yes, he did convey information to the Security Branch. MR MAKONDO Then why was he not released after you got him where you want him? After you got him as an informer, why did you not release him? MR S J VISSER After he was willing to cooperate he was released and then he was taken to his home. MR MAKONDO Let me refer you to the similar press conference, the last but one column, the fourth paragraph where he stated that his release was because of him having accidentally met Judge Goldstone, as a detainee. MR S J VISSER That is not correct, he did meet with Judge Goldstone, but he was then transferred to the Eastern Transvaal where he was released after he was willing to become an informant for the Police, or to cooperate with them. MR MAKONDO He talks of, from the similar press conference, of a Magistrate who visited him, do you know of that visit? MR S J VISSER Yes, it was law then that Magistrates could visit detainees. MR MAKONDO Do you remember who that Magistrate was? MR S J VISSER No, I'm not aware who it was, it was not in my area or district. MR MAKONDO Am I correct, he was visited whilst he was in Pretoria? MR S J VISSER Yes, I assume it was Pretoria or the Brits Police Station. MR MAKONDO Was it an internal arrangement of your department to get the Magistrate to visit him? MR S J VISSER No, it was according to law that a Magistrate had to visit the detainee. MR MAKONDO It strikes me that you don't remember quite a number of things which, according to the letter I gave to, I think to the Evidence Leader and other legal reps, the family is opposing on the basis that there is none full disclosure of facts known to you, am I correct? MR S J VISSER As far as my knowledge goes, I made a full presentation and full disclosure about what happened with this incident. CHAIRPERSON I think you should enumerate those, because he has said what he wanted to say and you are just coming and saying there are a number of things which you haven't disclosed, we don't know what you're talking about, and you are also referring to a letter you gave to the Evidence Leader, which we are not privy to. So we are at a loss of what you are talking about. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, may I apologise that you have not been placed in possession of that letter, I do believe that my learned colleagues though, do have copies of the letter. I will hand it up shortly. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson, I will highlight the things that I talked of, Chairperson. Starting, Chairperson, with the monitoring. The applicant cannot say that we had to - it says Mr Visser, or one Visser was in charge ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, I'd rather say you direct the questions, I don't want to be involved in the debate, I just want you to say what you think he hasn't disclosed and ask him directly. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, save to say that one Visser was observing the interaction of Malaza and Msibi, you talked of other sources which you either have forgotten or you don't tell us about. MS VAN DER WALT At this stage I'd just like to say that statement is not true, Mr Visser said that the information that was provided by other informants, and that was his answer. MR MAKONDO Mr Visser, perhaps I didn't ask it properly, who are those? MR S J VISSER I'm not capable of giving you the details of other informants that were used at the Security Branch and to give you the details concerning them. MR MAKONDO Hence, talking of non full disclosure, it is the view of the family that you know who the informants are, or who your sources are and you are not disclosing them. MR S J VISSER As far as I know the information concerning Msibi and his involvement as handler of Malaza, came from Malaza himself and it was at a later stage confirmed. But apart from that fact, other informants also brought out reports that resulted us making certain conclusions within the Security Branch. MR MAKONDO Mr Visser, it is also the view of the victims that the assault which Mr Msibi talked of in his press conference, occurred in your presence and you know about it and you are not disclosing it. MS VAN DER WALT I'm very sorry, that is a mistake, Mr Visser testified about the assault and he was cross-examined about the assault that took place in his presence. CHAIRPERSON He was shoved around and he was slapped a few times. Is that not true? MR S J VISSER Yes, it is. MR MAKONDO When you were asked about, by my learned colleague, about the involvement ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Makondo, are you going to be asking him a question on something else and not assault? I want to ask him a question just on this aspect of the assault. MR MAKONDO ... (indistinct) go on, I'm still on ... (indistinct) ADV SANDI Thank you. Mr Visser, as I understand you, you did not personally take part in the assault of this man, did you? MR S J VISSER I did not personally partake in it, no. ADV SANDI Was there any reason why you did not take part? MR S J VISSER I was a senior member, or one of the senior members present and one of the subordinates did interrogate him and then also assaulted him. ADV SANDI Did you take part in the questioning of this man, asking him questions? Did you take part in that? MR S J VISSER I did not personally put questions to him, but some of the members who were present, the Security Branch members, did ask him questions and interrogated him. ADV SANDI Is it your evidence that you do not know, or you do not remember who amongst your colleagues assaulted this man? MR S J VISSER It could one or more of them. As I said there were approximately six or eight people in that building, amongst others, de Kock, Col Visser and other members that I cannot even recall at this stage. ADV SANDI Is there anyone you are able to recall who did not assault this person? MR S J VISSER I did not touch him. ADV SANDI Do you know of anyone amongst your colleagues who were there? MR S J VISSER There were various members, Brig Schoon did not assault him and Gen Stadler did not assault him and there could be one or two more members who did not assault him. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Mr Makondo. MR MAKONDO It surprises me that you remember who did not assault him, but you don't remember who assaulted him. MR S J VISSER I remember that Schoon and Stadler were not involved, because we stood together at a certain point within this clubhouse. MR MAKONDO Do I get you correct if you say you were just standing there observing? MR S J VISSER That is correct, yes. MR MAKONDO And you were the senior members? MR S J VISSER On of the senior members present, yes. MR MAKONDO Are you saying by implication, it was your subordinates who were assaulting Mr Msibi in your presence? MR S J VISSER That is correct. MR MAKONDO When you were asked about the involvement of Mr de Kock, you said "possibly". MR S J VISSER Yes, it's possible that he could have assaulted him. MR MAKONDO You are not sure as to whether he assaulted him or not? MR S J VISSER I cannot say out of my own recollection, but if such a question was put to me by his legal representative, I would be able to confirm that it was possible. MR MAKONDO It's surprising that you don't even recall the time period that Mr Msibi was in your detention, when I say "your detention", I mean your department, whereas you take him as this important person with important information that you need. MR S J VISSER It is possibly the reason why he was shoved around and slapped, and that is to get urgent information from him within the short period of time that he was with us at the border post. CHAIRPERSON I suppose he means when he was eventually brought back to your jurisdiction. Would I be correct? MR MAKONDO That would be correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In other words, he means the second time when he was brought to your jurisdiction. Nelspruit. MR MAKONDO In the Eastern Transvaal, yes. MR S J VISSER Can you ... CHAIRPERSON Rephrase it. MR MAKONDO I'm saying I'm surprised that you don't recall even the time period within which you hand him in under your supervision from your orders to get him to Eastern Transvaal. MR S J VISSER I cannot remember the specific period because I gave the instruction to Visser and Greyling to do the interrogation while I was in Middelburg and he was detained in Witrivier. All that I could do was that on Sundays I could leave the office and maybe join them there and liaise with them. MR MAKONDO Hence I'm saying what you are saying does not correlate with what you said when you described Msibi as this person with information that was highly valuable to your department. MR S J VISSER But he was, or the position that he held within Swaziland as an Intelligence Officer of the ANC and of the Transvaal machinery, he was of great interest to the Security Branch and to get information from him was very important. MR MAKONDO Mr Visser, I've just confirmed this after I asked for the first time from the family members if Mr Msibi ever testified in any court of law, and they said according to their recollection he has not. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, in order not to waste time, I personally prosecuted Rabuli and Mokgabudi in the Regional Court in Pretoria, and I personally called Mr Msibi as a witness. If need be we can get hold of that record and make it available. CHAIRPERSON The other thing Mr Visser has said is he did not attend the court as well, so your question wouldn't be relevant, because he wasn't present. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Because according to one of the applicants, when he was killed he was due to appear in Court, that's what they know, that's the instruction I got. Do you know of any court that he was due to appear in? MR S J VISSER I'm not aware of any specific court, with the exception of the case that Mr Prinsloo has mentioned. MR MAKONDO That will be all, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKONDO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Makondo. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Visser, what was your rank at that stage? MR S J VISSER I was a Brigadier. MS PATEL Okay. Because if one refers to Exhibit A ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could we just hold ... Would you need a short adjournment to complete your instruction, it would appear there's a consultation whilst there's cross-examination. MS PATEL I ask for pardon, Chairperson, I was just clarifying a thing. Thank you, there will no need for that. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Visser, just to take you back to Exhibit A, it appears that Mr Msibi reported there that he was in fact assaulted at what he says looked like a clubhouse, now I would imagine that that's the brick building that you referred to at the Oshoek border post. MR S J VISSER Yes, it is a brick house at the Oshoek border post. MS PATEL He recalls specifically that Capt de Kock, as he was then, assaulted him with fists and a belt and further that he was struck on the head against the wall by Major Visser. Who would that have been? MR S J VISSER The only person who had a similar rank who was present there is the current Director Visser who is also one of the applicants in this matter. MS PATEL Would that be Gert Visser? MR S J VISSER Gert Visser, yes. MS PATEL Okay, can you confirm whether this in fact took place? MR S J VISSER I cannot confirm it, but it is possible that it took place, that he was also involved or that he also may have been involved in the assault. MS PATEL Right. Were you present at all times during the interrogation and assault at the Oshoek border house? MR S J VISSER Yes, I was in that particular building, or at least I was in the clubhouse. MS PATEL Were you present at - was he assaulted within your view at all times at the border? MR S J VISSER Yes. MS PATEL Alright. Then just one curious aspect, Mr de Kock refers in his application at page 32 of bundle 1 to us, that there was some problem between National Intelligence after Msibi was in fact abducted, do you bear any knowledge of this? MR S J VISSER I came to hear of this at a certain stage, I heard that National Intelligence had some or other objection regarding the abduction of Msibi. MS PATEL Do you know what that was about, what the objection related to specifically? MR S J VISSER The only inference that I could draw at that stage was that they also had an interest in the presence of Msibi in Swaziland. MS PATEL But you can't give us any specific information? MR S J VISSER No, I cannot give you any finer particulars. MS PATEL Okay. Furthermore, regarding the R2 000 that was paid, Mr Msibi had stated, according to the report, that that R2 000 was in fact his own money that was taken from his place in Swaziland, can you confirm? MR S J VISSER That is not correct, Chairperson, this was money which was used by the Security Branch in order to pay him for his continued co-operation with the Security Branch. MS PATEL Do you know whether his house was ever searched in Swaziland after his abduction? MR S J VISSER I'm not personally aware thereof, but it is possible that it may have been searched. MS PATEL Okay. During the subsequent interrogation by Greyling and Stadler of Mr Msibi, who would Greyling have reported to? MR S J VISSER What do you mean? MS PATEL As I understand it, after he was taken back to Daisy farm or Pretoria, he was then handed over to, or Greyling was then involved in his interrogation before he was then handed over further, is that correct? MR S J VISSER Yes, he would have reported to Gen Stadler regarding the interrogation which took place at Daisy. MS PATEL Okay. Would Stadler then have reported in turn to you, or informed you at least of the developments that were taking place? MR S J VISSER He would have brought a report to Head Office. MS PATEL And you would have been privy to those reports? MR S J VISSER Yes, it could have happened later that the information may have been made available to me. MS PATEL Alright. Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment, I just need to check my notes. CHAIRPERSON Whilst she's checking her notes, when he was subsequently taken back to the Eastern Transvaal, did you have any contact with Mr Msibi? MR S J VISSER Yes, I had contact with him, mostly on Sundays I travelled down from Middelburg to Nelspruit, where I would have discussions with him. CHAIRPERSON Why I'm asking you this, he says in the report, that would be the third column which is an interview that took place after his release in December, he says, the third paragraph "I wish to indicate that I later learnt that the person who hit me with fists and a belt was Capt de Kock, and the one who struck my head against the wall was Maj Visser, who are both stationed at Nelspruit Police Station." Who would that be, the other one, the other Visser? MR S J VISSER That's not correct, the Visser is Gert Visser, one of the applicants and Capt de Kock was not stationed at Nelspruit. CHAIRPERSON Did he at some stage lose consciousness when he was interrogated and resuscitated with five glasses of brandy? MR S J VISSER Not that I am aware of. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Can I just ask, was Mr Schoon present also at all times at the Oshoek border post when Mr Msibi was interrogated and assaulted? MR S J VISSER Brig Schoon was present, as well as Gen Stadler. MS PATEL Okay. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt, before you re-exam, could I ask my Panel just to complete, so that you do one re-examination? MS VAN DER WALT I think that's correct, thank you Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Mr Visser, who were the persons under your command, among the applicants that we have here today? MR S J VISSER Gert Visser and Greyling, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN And if I recall correctly, then you said that Greyling conducted a major proportion of the interrogation. MR S J VISSER Yes, and he also assisted in the transportation of Malaza to Pretoria. ADV BOSMAN Didn't you and Mr Greyling subsequently discuss anything regarding what had taken place there? MR S J VISSER Yes, we liaised regarding the information which was made available. ADV BOSMAN I actually want to know whether or not you discussed the incident. MR S J VISSER No, not in detail. ADV BOSMAN So did the entire aspect surrounding the assault never again come to light? MR S J VISSER No. ADV BOSMAN And the other persons with the exception of the senior officers, were they generally known to you or were they simply there? MR S J VISSER Most of Col de Kock's persons were known to me from sight. I didn't know all their names, but the other members who were there, such as Greyling and Visser, were personally known to me. ADV BOSMAN Then just one more question to clarify the picture completely. Why were there so many senior officers there that night? MR S J VISSER It was an operation which was planned from Head Office, this action against Msibi, and I believe that to be the reason. Stadler, among others, was involved with the interrogation of Malaza, the Security Branch member who was the double-agent for the ANC. That is why he was present there at the Oshoek border post. ADV BOSMAN Now where were your interests vested approximately, if one could speak in degrees of importance? MR S J VISSER I was the Commander of the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal and I was primarily responsible for combating terrorism which was launched from Swaziland into the RSA. ADV BOSMAN So did you have primary importance there that night? MR S J VISSER Yes, I had a primary interest there that night. ADV BOSMAN Actually I'm asking you this because it is somewhat strange to me that you recall so little of the details. MR S J VISSER In what regard, Chairperson? ADV BOSMAN Mr Greyling fell directly under your command and so too, Mr Gert Visser. MR S J VISSER That is correct. ADV BOSMAN And Greyling conducted the interrogation that night. MR S J VISSER I don't know whether he was present at that particular stage or whether he was still in Swaziland, busy on a further operation. I cannot really recall whether or not he was actually in the clubhouse at that stage. Visser was indeed there, that I can recall. ADV BOSMAN I'm sorry, then I must have misunderstood the evidence at some point, I thought that Greyling was also involved in the interrogation there. MR S J VISSER He was responsible for the abduction of, or for the transportation of Malaza to Pretoria. Later after Msibi was transferred to Eastern Transvaal, he received the order from me to continue with the interrogation and the reorientation of the subject. ADV BOSMAN I understand, it's my mistake. But Mr Visser was undoubtedly there? MR S J VISSER Yes, as far as I know, Gert Visser was present in the clubhouse. ADV BOSMAN Can you recall his share in the assault? He was a member of staff. MR S J VISSER I cannot say precisely, but it is possible that he may have shoved Msibi around. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi, any questions? ADV SANDI Yes, thank you Chair. Did I understand you to say you did meet the deceased after he was released? Your contacts with him, were they after he had been released? MR S J VISSER I did not encounter him again after he was released from police detention. ADV SANDI Now I understood you to say on Sundays you used to go to Nelspruit. MR S J VISSER That is correct. MS PATEL Would you personally have any discussions with him? MR S J VISSER Yes, I did speak to him on these Sundays, and I assisted him with the reorientation and the recruitment and his process of co-operating with the police. ADV SANDI Would you be able to say the deceased in the course of the contacts you had with him, would you be able to say whether he conveyed any useful information to you? MR S J VISSER As far as I know, he did convey important information and that is also why I asked Buchner to deal with him further as an informer. ADV SANDI Would it have been known to your co-applicants that the deceased was actually co-operating with you? MR S J VISSER Could you please repeat the question, I couldn't hear you quite clearly. ADV SANDI Your co-applicants, did they know, did any one of them know that the deceased was displaying this positive attitude to the police? MR S J VISSER Yes, they know about it, I believe that some of them may also have been present during his release and would confirm that he was willing to cooperate with the police. ADV SANDI Perhaps I should have asked this question as follows. You had this impression that this person was co-operating with you, did you convey that information to any person? MR S J VISSER He confirmed his willingness to cooperate. ADV SANDI What did you do with the information that this man was willing to cooperate? MR S J VISSER The Branch Commander of Nelspruit may possibly have produced reports and I arrange with Buchner to handle the man as an informer. ADV SANDI Should I understand that to mean you didn't really see the deceased as someone who deserved to be killed, did you? On the basis of what you've just said. MR S J VISSER Not at all, Chairperson. I accepted that he was willing to cooperate. ADV SANDI And you saw no need that the man should be killed? MR S J VISSER I saw no reason for it. ADV SANDI Did you at any stage become aware of what could have happened to him? MR S J VISSER I imagine that I heard at a later stage that he had passed away and that he died in Soweto in some or other way, but I don't know what the circumstances of his death were. ADV SANDI Where did you get that information from? MR S J VISSER In discussions with other members of the Security Branch. I heard that he died in Soweto. ADV SANDI You were not particularly interested to know the circumstances in which he has been killed, were you? MR S J VISSER I cannot recall that anybody told me precisely what took place. ADV SANDI Did you know who was his handler at that stage? MR S J VISSER The last I heard was that the current Gen Buchner would have handled him as an informer. ADV SANDI Yes, but surely if an informer gets killed, for that matter, even if he dies in a car accident, that must be a loss to the Security Police. MR S J VISSER The moment that I handed him over to Gen Buchner, I did not have any connections or involvement with him. His handler would have assumed further responsibility for him. ADV SANDI You did not seek to ascertain from Mr Buchner, his handler, as to what precisely could have happened to this useful informer? MR S J VISSER No, I did not. ADV SANDI Was there any particular reason why you did not do that? MR S J VISSER No, there is no specific reason. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Sandi. Just one question, Mr Visser. This orientation, you said you wanted to orientate him, in what respect, what did it entail? MR S J VISSER Broadly speaking, it is a discussion with this person or the detainee and you then attempt him to cooperate with the police to provide information in order to prevent any other acts of terror. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-exam, Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Visser, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Could we approach the next applicant and take fifteen minutes break. We shall adjourn for fifteen minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I'm calling Mr Gert Visser as the next applicant.