amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-14 PRETORIA 1 GERT VISSER AM5002/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54398&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200814pt.htm GERT VISSER (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The witness is properly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Prinsloo. EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Visser, you are an applicant in this matter pertaining to the abduction of Mr Msibi, who is deceased, correct? MR G VISSER That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr Visser, at the time of these events you were the Branch Commander of the Security Branch and you were stationed in Nelspruit. MR G VISSER That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Is it correct that the person to whom has been referred, Mr Malaza, as well as one of your fellow applicants, Mr Greyling, served under your command at Nelspruit? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO During your term there in 1986 or before, did you receive any information regarding the involvement of Mr Malaza with the ANC? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Did any information come to you indicating that information was being leaked from your office to the ANC? MR G VISSER Yes, such allegations were made and I was informed of these allegations. MR PRINSLOO And were these allegations investigated, and could you determine whether or not this was indeed true? MR G VISSER From 1982 already I had the instruction to monitor the actions of Mr Malaza, but at that stage I could not identify anything which would indicate that he was leaking information to the ANC. MR PRINSLOO Did you later obtain information, physical information which confirmed that he was indeed leaking information? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO In which manner was this information obtained, can you inform the Committee. MR G VISSER Members of National Intelligence visited my office and three bundles were shown to me, these bundles contained documents which would have been removed from my office. MR PRINSLOO And these documents to which you have referred, did they contain information of a secret nature? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And could you identify these documents as having originated from your office? MR G VISSER Yes, with the exception of the typing and the source numbers and the information pertaining to Nelspruit, my handwriting was also on these documents. MR PRINSLOO Can you think of any way in which these documents would have been removed from your office? MR G VISSER At that stage there was a very strong suspicion that Mr Malaza was involved in this, or at the very least, he was Inspector Malaza, and that he was working in my office at that stage. MR PRINSLOO The procedure which was followed in the office regarding documentation which you wanted to destroy, how did you destroy the documents? MR G VISSER Those documents were put in a specific basket and later they were put through a shredding machine. MR PRINSLOO And who, according to your knowledge, was responsible for shredding these documents? MR G VISSER W/O Malaza was responsible for this, among others. MR PRINSLOO Were there any documents which were supposed to have been shredded which you later identified along with National Intelligence? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Visser, according to evidence, Mr Malaza was later taken to Pretoria. MR G VISSER Chairperson, I received an instruction from Brig Visser that we had to bring W/O Malaza through to Pretoria and we were not to tell him what it was about, but we had to bring him through. MR PRINSLOO And did you bring him through? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Who accompanied you? MR G VISSER W/O Greyling accompanied me, along with Malaza. MR PRINSLOO And where did you take him? MR G VISSER We took him to a place which was known as Daisy. It was a farm or a smallholding near Pretoria, which was used by the Intelligence division. MR PRINSLOO And was Mr Malaza interrogated there? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO By who was he interrogated? MR G VISSER Among others, Gen Stadler and there was also another person from the Intelligence division of the Security Branch, whose name I cannot recall. MR PRINSLOO And during this interrogation, did you obtain any information from Malaza regarding this specific leakage of information? MR G VISSER That is correct, later we were informed that he had provided information to ANC persons in Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO And was this handler identified? MR G VISSER Yes. MR PRINSLOO Who was it? MR G VISSER A Mr Msibi. MR PRINSLOO Is this the person involved with today's application? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And this person, Msibi, did you have any other information regarding his position within the ANC? MR G VISSER It became known that he was very high up in the Intelligence division of the ANC in Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO And according to you, was he a very significant component of the ANC? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Would that have been within the structures of the ANC? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And did you possess any information which indicated whether or not he had received any military training or any other training? MR G VISSER Yes, it appeared at that stage that he was indeed trained. MR PRINSLOO And after this information was obtained from Mr Malaza during the interrogation, was any planning undertaken at a later stage, and who gave the instruction for this planning? MR G VISSER As far as I can recall, Gen Stadler discussed this matter further at Head Office. W/O Greyling and myself returned to Nelspruit with the instruction to join them at Oshoek two days later. MR PRINSLOO Was any plan launched for the abduction of Mr Msibi? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And would Mr Malaza assist you or not? MR G VISSER He declared his willingness to cooperate with us in the abduction. MR PRINSLOO Can you tell the Committee what the action was from Oshoek onwards. MR G VISSER At Oshoek there were members of the former C-Section from Vlakplaas, who rendezvoused with us there. The plan was for us to take Malaza through to Swaziland, we were to monitor him, he was to establish contact with Mr Msibi at a butcher and then he would accompany him on the Mbabane/Oshoek road, to his vehicle which had broken down there, apparently. On the way there they would be apprehended by members of the Security Police. MR PRINSLOO Were you accompanied by Mr Greyling, your subordinate officer? MR G VISSER Yes, we monitored Mr ... He went into the butchery and met Mr Msibi there, they left together and climbed into the vehicle. We informed C-Section by radio that they were on their way. MR PRINSLOO And was Mr Msibi then apprehended? MR G VISSER Yes, he was apprehended on the Oshoek/Mba-bane road. MR PRINSLOO And where did you take him? MR G VISSER He was then taken to a place in the RSA. MR PRINSLOO Specifically which place? MR G VISSER He was taken to Oshoek. MR PRINSLOO And at Oshoek, there was evidence of a clubhouse, is that where you took him? MR G VISSER Yes, firstly he was taken to a secluded spot among trees where C-Section waited with him. At that stage I and Mr Greyling and among others Mr de Kock, did not come out, we were still in Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO And was Mr Msibi then interrogated? MR G VISSER Yes, later that evening he was interrogated at the Oshoek recreational club. MR PRINSLOO Was he assaulted during this interrogation? MR G VISSER Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you assault him? MR G VISSER Yes, I personally was also involved in the assault. MR PRINSLOO In which manner did you assault him? MR G VISSER Perhaps I could just provide more clarity regarding what took place there. MR PRINSLOO Certainly, go ahead. MR G VISSER We spoke to Mr Msibi, he gave us his address, we sent members into Swaziland to see what they could find in the house. In the meantime we put general questions to him regarding his involvement. Later that evening members returned to the border post and they brought documents and a box, a cardboard box in which there were electronic devices, shiny boxes with wires coming out of them. Mr de Kock still remarked that these electronic devices could possibly be used in the planting of bombs, and we also interrogated him about that. And this also led to the assault. MR PRINSLOO And just to return to the assault itself, in which manner did you assault him? MR G VISSER I, among others, slapped him and shoved him around. MR PRINSLOO In a report in Exhibit A, a report from The New Nation, it is stated that among others, his head was knocked against the wall. MR G VISSER Yes, this may have happened, I don't believe that it was done intentionally, but it is possible. MR PRINSLOO Who else except you assaulted him? MR G VISSER I recall that Mr de Kock also participated in the assault. MR PRINSLOO And after this interrogation and the assault and the goods which were obtained and the address that he provided, what happened to Mr Msibi? MR G VISSER We realised swiftly that he would not provide us with much information which would be useful for immediate action and from there we decided that he would be taken through to Pretoria that very same evening. MR PRINSLOO Were you involved in the transportation of Mr Msibi to Pretoria? MR G VISSER No. MR PRINSLOO And your colleague, Mr Greyling? MR G VISSER No. MR PRINSLOO And was he then out of your hands? MR G VISSER At that stage he was out of my hands. MR PRINSLOO The information that Mr Msibi would have possessed regarding information which was provided to him by Mr Malaza, was there any other information or were there any other documents which could have been provided to him by other persons or Mr Malaza? MR G VISSER There were two members in the Security Branch in Pretoria, who according to Malaza, were also co-operating and who had also provided information which was conveyed to Mr Msibi. MR PRINSLOO Do you have any personal knowledge that these two members who were mentioned as Mokgabudi and Rabuli by the previous applicant, were prosecuted? MR G VISSER I know about it but I wasn't at the trial itself, or I was not involved in the investigation into the matter either. MR PRINSLOO Was Mr Msibi returned to you at any stage? MR G VISSER Yes, Chairperson, a few months later I received an order from Brig Visser that they were going to transfer Mr Msibi to Witrivier, where we would detain him further under the Section 29. We were then to attempt to convince him to cooperate with the Security Police. During that period he was brought to the Security Branch frequently, where among others, Mr Greyling spent many hours with him. Mr Jack Buchner also spent many hours with him, among others, with regard to photo album identifications and systematically he was recruited to cooperate with the Security Police. MR PRINSLOO And was he later released from the stipulations of Section 29 under which he was detained? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Do you have any knowledge of any payments which were made to him by the Security Branch or any other organisation? MR G VISSER Yes, I'm aware that Mr Jack Buchner indeed offered him and amount and it was also arranged for everything to be recorded on a video tape, to provide proof of his co-operation with the police, in case anything went wrong in the future. MR PRINSLOO Do you know what amounts were paid to him? MR G VISSER I cannot recall the amounts. MR PRINSLOO Mr Visser, was Mr Msibi interrogated by you or any other person regarding the information that he had obtained from Mr Malaza? MR G VISSER That is correct, we interrogated about that at length and also specifically regarding information pertaining to bomb incidents and terrorist attacks in the Transvaal region. MR PRINSLOO And during 1985/'86, there were various bomb attacks in the Eastern Transvaal. MR G VISSER Yes, there were various such attacks and landmine attacks, as well as incidents of terrorism. MR PRINSLOO The information which was illegally channelled to Mr Msibi and the ANC, did this in any way place police action at a disadvantage? MR G VISSER Undoubtedly so, Chairperson. It was classified information, it was information which was used for operations, it was also information which could have been very detrimental to the Security Branch. MR PRINSLOO Did you see it as a matter of national interest to obtain the information from Mr Msibi, in order to thwart any attacks which the ANC was planning? MR G VISSER It would undoubtedly have contributed to the successful prevention or partial prevention of acts of terror in the Eastern Transvaal. MR PRINSLOO During Mr Msibi's detention in Nelspruit and Witrivier, was he ever assaulted in your presence, or by you? MR G VISSER No, we treated him very well. On the contrary, with the idea to get him to cooperate with us ultimately. MR PRINSLOO Did you at any stage disclose the actual facts to the authorities, explaining how Mr Msibi arrived in South Africa? In other words, that he was illegally removed from Swaziland, that he was abducted. Did you ever disclose this in any application, and I'm not referring to this particular amnesty application? MR G VISSER No. MR PRINSLOO And in that regard, pertaining to his detention, was that fact also not disclosed? MR G VISSER How we obtained him was not disclosed. MR PRINSLOO And it was your duty to do so. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO At this stage, Mr Visser, you then apply for amnesty for the fact that you conspired with other members to abduct Mr Msibi from Swaziland, for the fact that you abducted him and that you detained him here in the Republic of South Africa. MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And that under the circumstances you also defeated the ends of justice and you also committed assault. MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And do you also apply for any delictual liability which may emanate from your involvement in these actions? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Your application appears on page 77, the application itself and subsequently your description of the incidents appears up to page 84, after which you describe the political background, do you confirm this? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Visser, just a few aspects. If I understand your evidence correctly, after Mr Malaza was taken to Daisy and interrogated, you were given the instruction to return and to report back at Oshoek the following day, is that correct? MR G VISSER Yes, there was a day afterwards, I'm not quite sure. MR HUGO The fact of the matter is, if I understand your evidence correctly, at the stage when you left Daisy you were not told what would be the future plans concerning Mr Msibi. MR G VISSER I was informed that there were such plans, but it had to be confirmed and certain discussions had to take place on Head Office level. MR HUGO During the interrogation at Daisy and in Pretoria, was mention ever made that Mr Msibi will be abducted or will be killed? MR G VISSER It was planned that it was very important to get hold of this person, yes. MR HUGO When you arrived at Oshoek the following day or two days later, who was the person who was in charge there of the operation, the spokesperson? MR G VISSER It was Gen Stadler, he was at the scene and he was the most senior person present. He was also the person who gave the instructions. MR HUGO What was the nature of the discussion that took place and the people who were present there? MR G VISSER Well the planning was that we had to abduct Mr Msibi. MR HUGO And is it then correct if I put it to you that you were then confronted with a fait accompli in terms of the decision that has already been taken and you just had to fall in with that? MR G VISSER That is correct. MR HUGO And the fact that there were so many senior people present, did that create a perception with you, or the impression that this operation came from a very high level and that it was planned at that level? MR G VISSER I thought so, yes. MR HUGO And there was no doubt with you that they did get authorisation from Head Office before you started with this operation? MR G VISSER I believed so, yes. MR HUGO Then just a few other aspects. This vehicle in which Mr Msibi drove, I think you said it was a red vehicle ... MR G VISSER Yes, it was a red vehicle. MR HUGO Can you remember if it was an Alpha vehicle? That is Mr de Kock's recollection. MR G VISSER Yes, I think it was an Alpha. MR HUGO So you know what happened to the vehicle? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, yes, when we conveyed the information that they were on their way with the vehicle, it took a while and then we took the same road and at the point, or when we arrived at the point where this person was abducted or taken, they were removed from the scene and those persons, I do not know who it was, took that vehicle and drove away. I later heard that they pushed this vehicle over a cliff. MR HUGO Yes, I just wanted to put it to you, and that is Mr de Kock's evidence and he will testify to it, that they pushed this vehicle over a cliff and according to them this vehicle was damaged and they do not know what happened to it afterwards. MR G VISSER Yes, I also heard the same thing. MR HUGO Very well. Then concerning the money, you will see in Exhibit A, mention is made of the fact that Mr Msibi said the R2 000 came from his house and that the Security Police paid him back this amount, can you remember anything concerning this? MR G VISSER I cannot confirm it no, but according to my knowledge it was money that was offered to him in order to recruit him, and as I've already mentioned, it was on tape, it was recorded and we could then later use it as evidence against him. MR HUGO Can I just ask you concerning the assault at Oshoek, was it initially the idea that this person will be interviewed as an introductory part of the whole process? MR G VISSER Yes, the whole idea was that if there wasn't information that could come out quickly and that we could act immediately on, maybe go back to Swaziland and get hold of somebody who was just as involved as Msibi, and then the interrogation will take place on a different place. MR HUGO Would you then agree with me that it doesn't quite make sense if you and your colleagues, or the colleagues from Vlakplaas as well as Mr Greyling, that they would take part in a serious assault in the presence of senior officers, keeping in mind that this interrogation was, or should have happened in Pretoria? MR G VISSER No, it was not the intention. As I've testified, those electronic devices that we got from his home, it did give us a suspicion that he was involved in the setting of bombs and we just asked a few questions concerning that. MR HUGO Now that you've mentioned it, I will say that Mr de Kock, he did not mention it in his initial application, but he now can recall that it is indeed correct that you did mention it to him, and I will put it to you for clarity's sake. Concerning then the assault, in Exhibit A they furthermore mention - and let me read it to you, it's the third column, the second sentence where there's apparently a reference to Mr Msibi's affidavit and also his version and where he says: "They later forced me to drink about four to five glasses of brandy. I was the blindfolded and driven to Pretoria." Do you know anything about this? MR G VISSER No, at all. MR HUGO I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Visser? MR G VISSER Mr Visser, Mr Schoon whom I represent has got this recollection that this operation could not be completed on the first day and that Schoon spent the night at Oshoek and that the operation was only successful the second day. MR G VISSER No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall that. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Very well. When you brought Msibi over the border, did you take him through a border post or did you go through the border illegally, at another place? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, I was not involved in bringing him across the border, I do not know how they brought him across the border. MR VISSER Well we'll as that from somebody else then. Knowing Mr Msibi and his position in the ANC, did you see him as an enemy of the State? MR G VISSER Yes, I did. MR VISSER You say that Stadler was Schoon's senior, I would say it's the other way around, Schoon was the senior of Stadler. MR G VISSER Yes, that is possible. MR VISSER I do not know if I have to put it to you, but because you've mentioned it now, I would have dealt with it with Mr de Kock, if it came up in his evidence, but the matter concerning National Intelligence, Mr de Kock in his application mentions the fact that there was an argument or a disagreement because of the Msibi incident, and that was between Johan van der Merwe, Gen Johan van der Merwe who was then a member of the Vlakplaas(sic) and National Intelligence and then by name, Mr Neil Barnard. I'm not quite sure if he refers to Neil Barnard. Page 32 of bundle 1. I'd just like to put it to you more clarity for the Committee itself, I spoke to Gen van der Merwe, he was not the Security Branch Commander at that stage, it was Stan Schutte, and he told me that he did not know about this incident before it occurred, but afterwards he heard about it when National Intelligence made it known or disclosed that the Security Branch had been infiltrated by ANC spies and it then seemed that National Intelligence had information that they did not disclose to the Security Branch, and that there was an argument between them. Do you know anything about this? MR G VISSER No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know anything about an argument on that level. MR VISSER But your knowledge in terms of the participation of National Intelligence was that they came to you and said, "look the people are carrying documents out of your office" MNR G VISSER "Dis korrek." MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL I've also got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Visser, just one or two questions. The applicant whom I'm representing, Mr Bosch, recalls that with your arrival in the Eastern Transvaal and before the abduction took place and it was successful, that there was another attempt and that Mr Msibi did not arrive and that the next day a further attempt was made. Can you recall that? MR G VISSER No, I cannot recall that but it is possible, I cannot remember specifically how it happened. MR LAMEY Very well. Then I'd like to ask you, you do recall that while you were present at the interrogation at Oshoek, the place where he was initially questioned, especially after the aspect of the electronic devices came up, can you recall in which way was he was attacked or assaulted by Mr de Kock? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, the way in which I recall it was that he was slapped around, shoved around. I do not know of any other type of assault that took place there. MR LAMEY Very well. I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Makondo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Visser, let's start at the forest where you said you waited with him, was it across the border, were you in Swaziland? MR G VISSER Could you please just get the question again, could you just repeat the question. MR MAKONDO Where you waited with Mr Msibi in the forest, was it across the border? Was it in South Africa or in Swaziland? MR G VISSER I did not wait there with him, the people who brought him through waited there in the bushes on the - I was not present there, I was there when we called them back, when everybody again gathered at the Oshoek clubhouse. The planning was that they will not bring him to the clubhouse, that they will drive further on and then wait there, but I was not present there during that time, I was still in Swaziland. MR MAKONDO Thank you. And the information he gave you initially, was it at the clubhouse, the one that led to the electronic devices being found in his house? MR G VISSER Yes, that was at the club. MR MAKONDO Everyone that was present here knows about this, should have seen them? MR G VISSER I accept so, yes. MR MAKONDO And the time you spent with him in the clubhouse, can you recall it? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, it was not very long, it was the evening. It's very difficult for me to say how long it was, it could have been two or three hours that we were in the clubhouse itself, but I know that that same evening he was taken back to Pretoria and we went back to Nelspruit. MR MAKONDO The time that you estimated, was it the time you spent interrogating him? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, initially certain questions were put to him, for example, is address, his position and this information he gave to us and this also led to people being sent to his house, and real interrogation, as the word was used, and where violence was used, that took place after the people arrived back from the house and brought back these electronic devices. MR MAKONDO The first information he gave you, are you saying he gave it to you without you applying any sort of violence on him? MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MR MAKONDO Then why apply violence thereafter? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, because as I've already mentioned, certain electronic devices or components came from his house and the suspicion was then that these devices were used with the planting of bombs and he denied all knowledge of this and this led to the assault. MR MAKONDO You described the assault as he was slapped around and juggled around. MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MR MAKONDO When you asked with my colleague that, was he hit against the wall, you said possibly. MR G VISSER I said in the process he could have hit his head against the wall, yes. I am not saying that we hit his head against the wall, but it could have happened that in the process he could have bumped his head or hit his head against the wall. MR MAKONDO Who was taking part in that assault? MR G VISSER As far as I recall it was myself and Mr de Kock. I cannot recall if there was any other member who took part in this. MR MAKONDO How many people were present there? MR G VISSER I cannot recall, there were various senior officers, there were also Mr Greyling who came from Nelspruit, then there were various members of Section C. If they all, if all of them were present in the clubhouse the whole time, I cannot say. MR MAKONDO The number of seniors who were there, can you recall, could it have been five, ten? MR G VISSER I can recall it was Brig Visser, Brig Schoon, Gen Stadler. This is the people I can recall at this stage. MR MAKONDO And the members of the C-Club, whatever you call it, can you estimate how many were there? C Group. CHAIRPERSON C-Section. MR G VISSER It could have been six or ten people, but not more than ten. MR MAKONDO Then roughly we're talking of about around fifteen people who were present there with you? MR G VISSER Yes, I'd say that. MR MAKONDO Are there possibilities that almost all of them were taking part in that? MR G VISSER No not at all, definitely not. Myself and Mr de Kock did ask the questions and did only get unsatisfactory answers at that stage. MR MAKONDO After the interrogation, who transported him to Pretoria? MR G VISSER I am not quite sure, I accept that it was the people from Section C. MR MAKONDO Do you perhaps know who of the seniors accompanied these people? MR G VISSER I'm not quite sure, we went into a different direction, that evening we went to Nelspruit, they went to Pretoria. I cannot recall who was with him in the vehicle. MR MAKONDO May I refer you to Exhibit A, the third column from the top. This is the press conference that Mr Msibi gave after his release. He says there "I was punched, slapped, beaten with a thick belt. My head was hit against the wall and my toes were stepped on as the interrogators forced information out of me." Can you confirm this as being true? MR G VISSER I can say that he was assaulted yes, but as he described it here, I cannot exactly confirm it as it is here. MR MAKONDO Mr Visser, perhaps for us to understand, can you explain how this assault was happening, was it orderly, was it everyone just hitting, was it one after the other? Can you give us a better picture? MR G VISSER It was between myself and Mr de Kock and the person was between the two of us and the interrogation took place between the two of us and he was shoved between the two of us and slapped around. MR MAKONDO Now if he's shoved between you two, how does it come that he might have hit the wall? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, it's a clubhouse with four walls, it's not a very big clubhouse, there's not a lot of furniture in it, only a few chairs and it could have happened that he hit his head against the wall. If that is what he alleges here. MR MAKONDO Was he hit with any object other than your hands? MR G VISSER I cannot recall any object that was used to hit him. MR MAKONDO Did he lose consciousness, according to your recollection? MR G VISSER At no stage, no. MR MAKONDO On the same document he says that, the second paragraph thereof, he was forced to drink four to five glasses of brandy. MR G VISSER No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall that at all, that at any stage we gave him any alcohol. MR MAKONDO So would I take it that it was basically you and Mr de Kock who were dealing with him at that moment? MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MR MAKONDO And anything contrary to that would be not true? MR G VISSER Yes, as far as I can recall. MR MAKONDO I'm asking you because Mr Visser SJ, said that were a number of people who were assaulting him at that time in the clubhouse, hence he could not recall who assaulted him. My question is on this basis, that if it was between you two, it wouldn't be difficult for anyone to recall. He said he could not recall who assaulted him because a number of people were involved. Are you saying that is not true? MR G VISSER Well as far as it concerns me, it was only myself and Mr de Kock who were involved in the assault. MR MAKONDO So as far as you're concerned, what has been said by Mr Visser SJ, is not true. MR G VISSER I can only say what I saw what happened there and what I can recall. MR MAKONDO You said the devices - perhaps let me ask this, he gave you the address in the clubhouse. MR G VISSER That is correct. MR MAKONDO So everyone who was present there knew about the address and you waited for the people to go and get whatever they brought back. MR G VISSER Yes. MR MAKONDO And saving - what happened to the documents, the things that you got from his house? MR G VISSER All of that accompanied him to Pretoria, or they took it with them to Pretoria. MR MAKONDO Excluding what you got from Mr de Kock, that those were devices used in bombing, do you know anything about it? MR G VISSER I do not know. MR MAKONDO Did you confirm that those devices for used for that? MR G VISSER I never received any further information concerning this, no. MR MAKONDO Do you know for how long was he detained in Pretoria? MR G VISSER Unfortunately I cannot recall, but it had to be a month or two. It could have been two months, I'm not quite sure. It was a period of time, yes. MR MAKONDO Did you get contact with him thereafter, when he was brought back to Eastern Transvaal? MR G VISSER The first time I again met Mr Msibi or had contact with him was when he was brought to Witrivier and where he was interrogated further and he was detained there. MR MAKONDO What information did you get from him during the second detention in the Eastern Transvaal? MR G VISSER He was interrogated about what happened in the Eastern Transvaal at that stage, certain incidents, landmines, bomb incidents, attacks, terrorist attacks, and he gave certain information concerning this. I also did a photo identification where he took the photo album, it was from the Security Branch, they went with him through it and he then identified all the people who he had contact with and then provided information on that specific person or persons. MR MAKONDO How long did that take, how much time did you spend with him during that second time? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall, but I think it was approximately two months. MR MAKONDO His release, do you remember how did it come about? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, it was arranged with Jack Buchner at the stage where we believed that he will cooperate with us and that he can be released and that he will then continue to work with the Security Branch. We then decided to release him and to then hand him over to Mr Buchner. MR MAKONDO With Mr Buchner, did he continue giving you information as you anticipated? MR G VISSER I accept it so, but I do not have firsthand knowledge concerning this. Mr Buchner acted as his handler, if he gave him information, I do not know. MR MAKONDO Do you know of his incidental meeting with Judge Goldstone during his detention? MR G VISSER I just heard about it, that before he was at Nelspruit there was an incident in Brits where he had contact with Judge Goldstone, but I do not have firsthand knowledge. MR MAKONDO After his release, do you know if he was given another handler perhaps? MR G VISSER No, I do not have any knowledge concerning that. MR MAKONDO When did you learn about his death? MR G VISSER It was probably a year or two after that that I heard that he was shot. MR MAKONDO Was there a follow-up on his killing, because you said he was your informer? MR G VISSER At that stage I was at Nelspruit and he was in Johannesburg or Soweto, where he was active, I had nothing to do with that. MR MAKONDO That will be all, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKONDO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Makondo. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Sir, can you tell us, prior to the interrogation of Mr Malaza, did you have any information on Mr Msibi at that time? MR G VISSER No, none at all. MS PATEL Not even from reports that would have come in from the Security Branch generally? MR G VISSER No, no information at all. MS PATEL Are you saying that he was completely unknown to you at the time? MR G VISSER Yes, I'd never heard of such a person. MS PATEL So whatever information was gained about Mr Msibi at the time was gained through Mr Malaza? MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MS PATEL Okay. And the information that you have regarding Mr Msibi, would have been the information that the rest of the persons involved with Mr Malaza and Mr Msibi at the time, would have had? MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MS PATEL Okay. Why was he then - if there was no information on him at the time, why was he then seen as such an important figure at the time of his abduction? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, when Mr Malaza made known who the person was and we could connect a name, or give him a name with the security information that we had at that stage, that he was a very important figure in Swaziland. MS PATEL Alright. After Mr Msibi's abduction you're absolutely certain that he was at the clubhouse for about two to three hours before he was then taken to Pretoria? MR G VISSER That is correct, yes. MS PATEL Okay. Would the rest of the applicants present here have been in the clubhouse during the time of the interrogation and assault on Mr Msibi? MR G VISSER Well at one stage they had to be there, I would not say that they were there the whole time, because people came in and out, went to go and eat or whatever, but yes, at some stage all of them had to be there. MS PATEL Who was primarily in charge of the interrogation of Mr Msibi in the clubhouse itself? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, I would say that it was myself and Mr de Kock that put the questions to him. I would say that the two of us did the interrogation or the questioning. MS PATEL Okay. And would that have been, at whose behest? MR G VISSER It would be the senior officers who were present there, they would be interested in hearing this information, and they were also present in the clubhouse. MS PATEL You say then that after that he was taken to Pretoria and then handed over to you at Witrivier, more-or-less a month or two later. Can you tell us what his condition was at the time that he was handed over to you at Witrivier, generally, physically and emotionally? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, physically there was nothing wrong with him, emotionally he was very detached and initially he did not want to cooperate at all, but this changed. MS PATEL Okay. So at the time that he was handed to you, the report was that he wasn't co-operating? MR G VISSER I am not aware of what information he gave to the police during those two months, all that I can say is that my instruction was to gather more information concerning the Eastern Transvaal, and then specifically to convince him to cooperate with the police. I am not aware of any other information that he would have given at that stage. MS PATEL Okay. What specifically did you do to convince him to cooperate with you? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, we spent a lot of hours with this person, he was everyday in my office and after a period of time you get to know this person, you deal with him in a humane manner concerning the circumstances, and it is a very long process to get that person to then trust you. MS PATEL Why would he have trusted you, after all you were to traditionally seen as the enemy? I don't understand how a man who has resisted for so long to cooperate, is then eventually convinced to cooperate with you, could you elaborate? MR G VISSER Well Mr Chairperson, I was not the only person, it was myself, it was Mr Greyling, Brig Visser also came through to discuss things with him, to talk to him, and Buchner also spent a lot of hours with him, so we were a team who worked with him. I got the impression that he could not recall that I was the person who was present at Oshoek. I do not think he brought two and two together there. MS PATEL He mentions here that there was a Maj Visser who was present during his assault at the Oshoek clubhouse, that would be you? MR G VISSER That's correct, yes. MS PATEL Okay. Could you just give us an indication of the size of the room at the clubhouse, where hew as interrogated? How big was it? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, probably the half of this room, then in one corner there'd be a built-in bar, I would say it would be half the size of this room. It would be a large square building with a thatch roof, it would not be bigger than half of this building. MS PATEL Okay. And can you give us an indication where specifically, in which specific part of the room was he interrogated, was it in the middle, on the side, near to the bar area, what? MR G VISSER As far as I can recall it was in the section the furthest from the bar area, that would be on the opposite side of the club. MS PATEL Is that more-or-less in the middle of the room? MR G VISSER No, that would have been more to the other side, as far as I can recall. MS PATEL Okay. And was Mr Schoon present at all times as far as you can recall, in that room? MR G VISSER Yes, I ...(intervention) MS PATEL And he would have witnessed the assault on Mr Msibi? MR G VISSER Yes. MS PATEL Okay. Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, if you will just grant me a moment. Can I just ask, you say that in Swaziland your task was to monitor Mr Msibi's place of work, is that correct? MR G VISSER Well actually we monitored Malaza while he was going to Msibi's place of work, then he would establish contact with him and move out to the prearranged rendezvous point where the abduction or the attack would take place. MS PATEL Can you recall what specific information Mr Malaza would have handed over regarding Mr Msibi's activities at the time? Prior to the abduction of course. MR G VISSER Chairperson, as I have understood it, Mr Msibi was his handler and there were also other persons who were in Pretoria, who sent information through to Mr Msibi from the Security Branch. MS PATEL So the information at that stage was that he was involved in the handling of persons and the collecting of information, but no specific involvement in any acts specifically that related to the planting of landmines, etcetera? MR G VISSER He was in the Intelligence division and he dealt with information. MS PATEL Okay. The nature of the documents that were retrieved from his home, do you have any idea what they were about? MR G VISSER I cannot say, Chairperson. MS PATEL And you don't know what happened to Mr Malaza? MR G VISSER When we were still in Swaziland, after Mr Msibi had been abducted, Mr Greyling, Mr Malaza, Mr de Kock and I, went to Iselweni(?) where we discussed the incident and Mr Malaza then told us that there was a further person with whom he had also had contact, who was also part of the ANC network in Swaziland and that if we could get hold of him we would also be able to obtain good information. After that we departed to Manzini, Malaza said that this person was always in the library. At that stage we trusted Malaza, because we had already performed a successful abduction. Mr Malaza moved into the library, we lost him there and we never saw him again. He then joined the ANC somewhere abroad, as far as we could surmise. We could never again trace him. He defected into Swaziland. MS PATEL Just finally, how long did it take after he was brought to the clubhouse and he gave you his address, how long did it take to go back into Swaziland to get the documentation and whatever else you took from his house and to get back to where he was being held? MR G VISSER As I recall, it must have taken 45 minutes. It may have been an hour, but it wasn't very long. MS PATEL And how long - that initial period where he handed that information over to you about his address, how long did that take? MR G VISSER Chairperson, during the course of his interrogation he gave that over, he responded to the questions that we put to him regarding his address, who he was and so forth. It wasn't in any way a problem to obtain that information. MS PATEL Alright, thank you very much. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR VISSER Chairperson, I wonder whether I may interrupt, there's one issue which I forgot to take up with this witness, it's just one issue. I wonder whether you would allow me to ask him that question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly, you may go ahead. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to put it to you that Brig Schoon has no recollection that he was present at Oshoek when the assault on Mr Msibi took place, he says that he recalls that he departed to go and make a telephone call from some place. However, he was indeed present during an assault at Vlakplaas, and you say and were very fair with your evidence, you say that as far as you can recall they must have been there from time to time, the senior officers, therefore, could it be that Brig Schoon might not have been there during the assault? MR G VISSER That is possible, but I can recall that the officers were there. I cannot recall that Mr Schoon specifically left to go and make a telephone call. MR VISSER But can you recall that he was specifically present during the assault? MR G VISSER I recall that he was there but at the specific time during which the assault was committed, I would not be able to say unequivocally that he was there. MR VISSER Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to follow up on the questions put by the Evidence Leader, Ms Patel, it would appear to me that there were two stages, the interrogation before the persons returned with the cardboard box containing the documents, and then there was a further session of interrogation, is that correct? MR G VISSER I would say that the interrogation continued more-or-less, but that the intensity of it changed when the electronic devices were discovered and he denied any knowledge of it. ADV BOSMAN Let us begin again. How do you estimate, how long do you estimate approximately, did the interrogation last before the persons returned with the cardboard box containing the documents? MR G VISSER I would say approximately 45 minutes to an hour. ADV BOSMAN Does that include the time that they were gone? MR G VISSER That is correct. ADV BOSMAN And once they returned was it necessary to change the nature of the interrogation, because now you were confronted with certain things? MR G VISSER That is correct. ADV BOSMAN How long did it continue afterwards? MR G VISSER It is difficult to say, it may have been half an hour, it may have been 45 minutes, but it really wasn't very extensive. ADV BOSMAN There was evidence that the total interrogation took approximately three hours. MR G VISSER I would not dispute that. It was during the night and I know that we moved back to Nelspruit on that very same night. ADV BOSMAN But from what you have said it would appear that there was a reasonable time of interrogation after they returned with the box containing the documents. MR G VISSER As I've stated, Chairperson, it may have been 30 minutes to 45 minutes, but it definitely wasn't a question of hours. ADV BOSMAN How did the discovery of the box containing the documents and the electronic devices influence your interrogation? MR G VISSER The fact that the persons who were sent to the house brought back the box containing the documents and the apparatus and stated that they found it in the house and the subject denied any knowledge of it. ADV BOSMAN But my question is, how did this influence the nature and the style of your interrogation? MR G VISSER Well I was convinced that at that stage he was beginning to conceal certain information from me. ADV BOSMAN Didn't that also influence the extent of your frustration? I'm just trying to establish the situation here. MR G VISSER Yes, it did, we were rather frustrated at that stage because it would appear at that stage that there was significant evidence which had come to light and all of a sudden this person didn't know anything about it. ADV BOSMAN But didn't that also alter the nature of the assault? MR G VISSER Well that actually gave rise to the assaults. ADV BOSMAN Let me just be certain, because I do not want to trick you into anything, I just want to understand your evidence properly. Is it your evidence that the assaults actually commenced after the cardboard box was brought to the scene? MR G VISSER That is correct. ADV BOSMAN Just for the sake of interest, you have stated that there was a bar on one side of the room. MR G VISSER Yes. ADV BOSMAN Was any liquor consumed during the course of the evening? MR G VISSER I cannot recall with certainty, it is possible, but I cannot recall that there was voluntary use of liquor. ADV BOSMAN Was it available? MR G VISSER There was always liquor in the cabinet, but it was closed and this cabinet was controlled by the border post staff at Oshoek. Whether or not there was someone there selling the liquor, I cannot recall. ADV BOSMAN Did the police control the border post? MR G VISSER Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN So it was a police clubhouse. MR G VISSER That is correct. ADV BOSMAN And at what time did all of this take place approximately? Early or late evening? MR G VISSER It was during the course of the evening, it was definitely before midnight. It couldn't have been after midnight because afterwards we drove back to Pretoria. ADV BOSMAN There is something that bothers me, I'm looking at paragraph 3 of Exhibit A and it would appear from the order of the statements there, as if the assault took place first, before he gave the address. "I was punched, slapped, beaten with a thick belt, my head hit against the wall and my toes stepped on as the interrogators forced the information out of me, after obtaining information on my house address at Iselweni. Some of the police drove there." Would you agree with me that if one examines that, it would appear as if the assault began before he gave his address? In other words, during the first section of the interrogation, isn't that correct? MR G VISSER One could interpret it as such, but it says "after obtaining information on my house" therefore it would appear to me that he gave information about his house and that subsequently he was assaulted. ADV BOSMAN Precisely. Upon a question of mine you answered that the assault began after they returned with the box containing the documents and that there was a certain measure of frustration in your mind, because you felt that you weren't gleaning any further information, so can we just try to clarify that course of events. Was he assaulted before they came back with the box containing the documents? MR G VISSER No, he was not assaulted before that point. ADV BOSMAN So if you read this now, would you say that what appears here is incorrect? MR G VISSER No, it is not correct. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I notice we've gone just past quarter past, could we take the lunch adjournment and return at two? Is that "billik"? We'll adjourn until 2p.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GERT VISSER (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair, I don't have a question to ask. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination, Mr Prinsloo? MR HUGO Mr Chairman, sorry, may I just be permitted to ask one question and it flows from questions asked by Adv Bosman. It's just one aspect that I want to clarify with this witness, thank you. CHAIRPERSON You may go ahead. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you. Mr Visser, in relation to the questions put to you by Adv Bosman, I would just like to put it to you that Mr de Kock's recollection is that the assault at Oshoek did indeed start before the documents were fetched from Swaziland. I could just put it to you for your comment. MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, that is not how I recall this incident and that it only happened afterwards. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Visser, on a question by Ms Patel, the Evidence Leader, you were asked if you had any information concerning Mr Msibi before information was provided by Mr Malaza, can you remember that? MR G VISSER Yes. MR PRINSLOO Was Mr Msibi in information sources before Malaza provided the information known to you by name? MR G VISSER There was a Msibi in Swaziland but I did not know who and what he was. MR PRINSLOO And was there information concerning this person available? MR G VISSER Only after we could make the connection and after Malaza said that Msibi, that he handled Msibi(sic) and then we could make that connection and we then realised that he was the person also called MK. MR PRINSLOO If I understand you correctly you did have information about a person, but you could only connect that information with that person after the information Malaza gave to you? MR G VISSER Yes. MR PRINSLOO At any time during that evening did you give alcohol, or did you use alcohol? MR G VISSER No. MR PRINSLOO And the interrogation that you led concerning Mr Msibi and the devices that were brought it, was it very urgent or necessary to get that information as soon as possible? MR G VISSER Mr Chairperson, it was very urgent, we had to know what these devices were and what they were used for, in order to prevent future incidents. MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you Mr Visser, that concludes your evidence, you are excused. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, may Mr Visser be excused from further attendance, unless he's required, I can easily get in touch with him. CHAIRPERSON I have excused him. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman, I appreciate that. MR G VISSER Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I think from his evidence it would make sense if we could have Mr Greyling next. MR PRINSLOO I'm calling Mr Greyling, Mr Chairman.