amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-15 PRETORIA 2 FRANK McCARTER AM4064/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54402&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200815pt.htm FRANK McCARTER (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you may be seated. Mr Nel? EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, before I proceed with the application, I've just been instructed by Mr McCarter, whilst Mr de Kock was speaking about Mr Msibi, that he would also like to tell the family that he agrees in every respect with Mr de Kock about what he said about Mr Msibi. Mr McCarter, if we can turn to your application. You're an amnesty applicant in this matter and your application is found in bundle 2, pages 1 to 9 is the initial application, and then on page 10 is an additional affidavit which is transcribed from, or typed out from the hand-written one on page 10 and 11, is that correct? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL You also refer in your application to the submissions made by the erstwhile Commissioner of Police, Gen van der Merwe, and do you ask this Committee to incorporate that as part of your evidence? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Mr McCarter, you deal with your political beliefs etcetera, in your application, do you confirm the correctness thereof and in fact, the entire application as it lies before us? MR McCARTER I do, Mr Chairman. MR NEL You were, at the time of this operation, under the command of Mr de Kock at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL And do you agree with the evidence that Mr de Kock has given here, regarding the particular incident of the abduction of Mr Msibi? MR McCARTER I do, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Now if we may turn to page 11. In your application you mentioned the name Twala, could you just clarify where the mistake, if it is a mistake, came into the papers? MR McCARTER Mr Chairman, I stand to be corrected, but I recall correctly, Twala was the name that he used in Swaziland. MR NEL But we know, and it's common cause, that the person that you abducted was Mr Msibi. MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL So we are talking about the same incident and the same person? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Mr McCarter, is it correct that you were a part of the group of persons who entered Swaziland, you were in fact in the Land Cruiser and ultimately brought Mr Msibi out of Swaziland in the same Land Cruiser? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Could you perhaps - I think you're the first person who is actually going to testify about the actual taking of Mr Msibi, could you give us a brief account of exactly what happened there. MR McCARTER Mr Chairman, we were standing by on the, quite close to the place where we had arranged to snatch Mr Msibi, as Mr de Kock said, it was just past the first turn-off to Mbabane, coming from Oshoek border post. On the right-hand side of the road there was a small inlet where Malaza was supposed to have taken Mr Msibi, and we received a radio message from Mr de Kock that the car was on its way. If I remember correctly, there were two vehicle, two of our vehicles involved in the snatching of Mr Msibi, and when the vehicle parked in the inlet, that's the Alpha of Mr Msibi, we boxed it in and Mr Msibi realised immediately that there was a problem, because he noticed this gang of burly white men dashing towards him and he tried to get out the car. It had been pre-arranged by Mr de Kock that none of us would carry weapons and that certain of us were involved in actually subduing Mr Msibi and putting him in the back of the Land Cruiser. I was involved in the driving of the Land Cruiser. After the Land Cruiser had initially been brought to a standstill and boxed the car in, the other guys hopped out and pounced on Mr Msibi. I hopped into the driver's seat and while they were struggling with him, I reversed the Land Cruiser up to where they were struggling with Mr Msibi. Steve Bosch opened the rear doors of the Land Cruiser and Mr Msibi was shoved into the back where a number of the guys, I think there were four/five of them, sat on top of him to hold him down, because he was struggling, and I can just remember them saying how strong he was at the time. MR NEL Well the words that you use in your application already constitutes an assault, where you say "We pounced on him and forced him into the back of the Land Cruiser" It's common cause that he was manhandled, is that correct? MR McCARTER Absolutely, Mr Chairman. MR NEL And once he was in the vehicle, you drive out and you crossed the border where you - not legally, you went through the fence. What happened there? MR McCARTER Just shortly before the border post we turned off onto a small dirt road and rode parallel with the border fence, up until a point about two kilometres from the border post, I reckon, where we cut the fence and drove through onto the South African side. MR NEL And you parked somewhere - I've heard the evidence, or we heard the evidence, something like a forest, and if I refer you to - or first of all, why did you stop there and not go to the clubhouse immediately? MR McCARTER I think it was basically to wait for the other vehicles to catch up to us and also that we were just re-arranging our position and everyone settling themselves down again, because it was quite a nerve wracking experience. MR NEL The late Mr Msibi says in his affidavit that one of the white men remarked after this, "Welcome to South Africa", is it correct that you were in fact the person who said to Mr Msibi, "Welcome to South Africa"? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Briefly, at the Oshoek club, were you involved in an assault on Mr Msibi at all? MR McCARTER No, Mr Chairman. MR NEL You were obviously aware of Mr Msibi being assaulted. MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL You did associate yourself with that? MR McCARTER Absolutely. MR NEL And at Vlakplaas, were you involved in an assault on Mr Msibi? MR McCARTER No, Mr Chairman. MR NEL But you also knew that he was assaulted and you also associated yourself with that? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Mr McCarter, lastly then, is it correct that you apply for amnesty for the conspiracy to abduct Mr Msibi, the actual abduction itself, the assault upon Mr Msibi and offences regarding the illegal crossing of the border and therefore breaking the border regulations, and are you also applying for amnesty for any other delict or civil matter that might flow from this incident? MR McCARTER That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Did you receive any benefit for your taking part in this operation? MR McCARTER No, Mr Chairman. MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence NO FURTHER QUESTINS BY MR NEL NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR McCARTER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nel. Mr Hugo, any cross-examination? MR HUGO I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR VISSER No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS No questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr Makondo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKONDO Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, Mr McCarter, I would like to confirm that Twala is the surname he used in Swaziland, you are correct, he was called Thomas Twala. You are very correct there. MR McCARTER Thank you. MR MAKONDO So we're talking of a similar person. CHAIRPERSON Same. MR MAKONDO The same person, Chairperson. Thank you, Chair. The moment of abduction, can you give the details thereof? I'm asking you this in relation to what he gave in his affidavit, because you were there observing you perhaps at least can confirm what he's saying or give details thereof. MR McCARTER Yes. Basically, in there, except for the weapons, that's not true, but the rest of the thing where he was handcuffed, I think at some - basically he was only handcuffed on the road, yes, because the guys held him down in the back, he was struggling and they had to hold him down and we were just driving at the same time. So it was basically a snatch and grab and he was only handcuffed on the way to the border. I think he was gagged, I can't remember. As I was driving you know, the thing was behind me, the incident that took place there. And I can confirm that the ladies doing their washing at the river, they did scream. MR MAKONDO Mr de Kock talked of a balaclava, do you remember perhaps that you at some stage did put a balaclava over his face? MR McCARTER I'm not too sure because his head and everything was kept down behind the seat, you know, they were basically sitting on him to hold him down. MR MAKONDO Thank you. And at the clubhouse, could you perhaps detail your arrival there and how he was dealt with at the clubhouse. MR McCARTER Not specifically, Mr Chairman, I know that we waited for a short while, after we had crossed the border we waited for a short while in the plantation and then we went down to the club. I think when we had heard that everyone had arrived back and they were ready for us to go down there, that we went down to the clubhouse. I know that there were assaults that took place at the time, basically how Mr de Kock described it, that's how I remember it. But most of us that weren't involved in the interrogation, we were sort of on the side. We basically waited outside most of the time, because we didn't have the background that the interrogators had and consequently we had no interest in the actual interrogation. We couldn't give, you know, any contribution in that respect. MR MAKONDO Thank you, Mr McCarter. That will be all, Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKONDO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Makondo. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just one aspect, Mr McCarter. During the time at the Oshoek clubhouse, when you were standing outside, can you confirm whether he was possibly assaulted, Mr Msibi was assaulted during that time, in-between when Mr Hugo and Mr Greyling had gone back to Swaziland? CHAIRPERSON Not Mr Hugo, don't make him a party to the application. MR HUGO I wasn't ... MS PATEL Gosh, I'm sorry. CHAIRPERSON I suppose it's Mr de Kock? There's a close association, probably similar. MR HUGO I don't know why, Mr Chairman, but ... MS PATEL I'm sorry, Mr Hugo, it had to happen sometime. Mr de Kock. My apologies. In-between the time that Mr de Kock and Mr Greyling had gone back into Swaziland to search Mr Msibi's house and when he had returned, can you say whether Mr Msibi was in fact assaulted during that period, at the clubhouse? MR McCARTER I can't say for certain, Mr Chairman, unfortunately. I know he was assaulted initially, as Mr de Kock describes it, and thereafter there was interrogation taking place, but I can't remember specifics you know, because it was over a period basically, during the day, that he was kept there until Mr de Kock and them got back and there was this re-questioning about what they had found. MS PATEL Okay. And do you confirm Mr de Kock's time period as to when he was held at the Oshoek clubhouse? MR McCARTER Yes, yes, no it was. You know we picked him up probably about 10 o'clock that morning, so I think the meeting was for about half past nine, 10 o'clock and he was punctual. So it was from, he was held basically from the morning until the late afternoon until they got back, yes. MS PATEL Okay. And you say he was handcuffed whilst in the vehicle, did those cuffs remain on his hands when you arrived at Oshoek, or were they removed? Can you remember? MR McCARTER I can't remember specifics there. MS PATEL Okay. And there's mention in the article here about leg-cuffs or leg irons, can you recall anything to that effect? MR McCARTER I know for certain that we didn't put leg irons on him in the vehicle, because there was just no time. MS PATEL Okay. MR McCARTER So I can't comment afterwards. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Mr McCarter. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Just one question from me, thank you Chair. Mr McCarter, are you able to give us the names, the name or names of any person you saw assaulting Mr Msibi at the clubhouse? MR McCARTER Well Mr de Kock naturally was the person that I recollect, I can't think offhand of anyone else. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON When you got to the clubhouse and Mr Msibi disembarked, where were you, were you inside the clubhouse or outside the clubhouse? MR McCARTER I don't think I drove the vehicle then, the vehicle was actually driven by Paul van Dyk, so he was anxious to get back into the driving seat. He was most concerned when I was driving the vehicle from the abduction point up to the border post, he kept on shouting over my shoulder whether I'm still alright and I think he was concerned about his vehicle, so he was anxious to get back into the driving seat. As I recollect, he drove back down from the plantation to the border post and I was in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON And when you got to the clubhouse from the plantation, did you enter inside the clubhouse or where did you position yourself or where did you wait around? MR McCARTER I did go into the clubhouse on a few occasions, Mr Chairman, but you know, it was sort of in and out. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you can undertake your trip, Mr McCarter. MR McCARTER Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. MR McCARTER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON I hope you'll arrive safely and you drive safely as well. MR McCARTER Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, I suppose you could break the ...(indistinct) MR LAMEY Yes. Thank you, Chairperson, I call applicant Nortje.