amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-15 PRETORIA 2 WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE AM3764/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54403&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200815pt.htm WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may take a seat, Mr Nortje. Mr Lamey? EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Nortje, in these proceedings you also apply for amnesty for your participation in the abduction of what you refer to in your application as the "Handler of W/O Malaza of the South African Police", is that correct? MR NORTJE That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR LAMEY We will later get to that. You submitted an initial application for amnesty which you undersigned and which can be found on page 41, is that correct? MR NORTJE That's correct. MR LAMEY Then there is an initial typed annexure thereto on page 44, where you make mention of this incident, and which goes over to page 45 is that correct? MR NORTJE That's correct. MR LAMEY After you got legal representation a supplementary application was submitted and that we can find on page 52 up until page 53, is that correct, and then also your explanation of your political objectives on page 55 and 56, is that correct? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Mr Nortje, just concerning the date, when you made your statement you mentioned that it was during 1988, we've all agreed that it is 1986, will you accept that? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY And you also remember that it was Mr Msibi who was the handler and when you made the statement you could not recall the name? MR NORTJE That's correct. MR LAMEY You also had the advantage of listening to the evidence of other applicants, especially also the Commander, Mr de Kock. You were a member of Vlakplaas, what was your rank at that stage? MR NORTJE I was a Sergeant. MR LAMEY You were part of the group who executed the abduction from Swaziland to South Africa. MR NORTJE That is correct. MR LAMEY You also mentioned in your initial application that the whole operation was under the leadership of Brig Schoon, with other high-ranking officers knowing about this. Is it correct that you are in agreement with Gen Stadler's involvement? MR NORTJE That's correct, yes. MR LAMEY I do not want to repeat the evidence that has already been led, but you do confirm what has been said by, amongst others, Col de Kock and McCarter, who testified before you. Can you just in short tell us what your role was in Swaziland concerning the abduction and how it happened according to your knowledge. MR NORTJE The day when Msibi was abducted, we went in the morning. The planning was done as Mr de Kock said, on the road close to Mbabane. We chose a place there. They made the arrangements. Myself and Bosch were driving in one vehicle. MR LAMEY Was that another vehicle to the Land Cruiser? MR NORTJE Yes, it was a different vehicle. The planning was that we would then stop next to him, grab him and put him in the Land Cruiser. After a while we got the message that they were on their way. The red Alpha stopped. The planning went as we planned it. We stopped next to the red vehicle. Some of the people in the Cruiser got out. Coetser jumped out. We were more-or-less the same time at the vehicle. Msibi saw that there were problems, he started fighting. We got him under control. We loaded him into the Cruise and we drove off. CHAIRPERSON When you say he started fighting, what did he do? That is Mr Msibi. MR NORTJE He resisted because we wanted to grab him. He immediately realised that we are going to try and load him into the vehicle, because he did resist and he was quite strong. MR LAMEY Can I just stop you there, who were the members who were with you who grabbed or seized Mr Msibi? MR NORTJE Myself, Coetser and van Dyk I can remember were there. We grabbed him. I do not know what the other members did at that stage, I assume that Steve Bosch was there and McCarter. He was the driver. He pulled in the vehicle and positioned it next to the other and we then grabbed him and put him in the back of the Cruiser. MR LAMEY After he was placed in the Land Cruiser, what did you do then? Did you go back to the other vehicle? MR NORTJE I then went to my vehicle. Myself and Bosch followed them and basically covered the back ...(intervention) MR LAMEY You gave cover. MR NORTJE Gave cover. They were a little way in front of us and we saw that there was - because people saw us, women did scream from the river's side. It was daytime, so people could have seen us, so we took the necessary precautions, but nothing happened and we drove until the border post. We went past the border post on the left-hand side. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR LAMEY You did not go through the border post? MR NORTJE No, we went over the fence and we then went to a place in a plantation on the Republic's side of the border. MR LAMEY Do you know if Mr Msibi, before he was loaded into the Land Cruiser, or maybe during the transportation of him, if his mouth was covered with tape and if he was cuffed? Can you recall? MR NORTJE I did not do it myself, but I think that his mouth was covered yes, because when we got to the other side he was also tied or cuffed. I was not involved in that because the people who were in the Cruiser did that, because we were driving in the other vehicle. MR LAMEY Can you recall how long you waited there at the plantation and what the reason was for that? MR NORTJE Well the abduction took place approximately 10 o'clock that morning, so it did not take us very long to cross the border and we waited in the plantation, I think till late that afternoon. I do not think, I can't remember who we waited for, if it was people from Pretoria or what the delay was. We sat there and basically just ensured that he did not escape. Some of the members came and spoke to him and at a later stage that afternoon, he was taken to the clubhouse. MR LAMEY During his detention there in the plantation, was there any assault on him there? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR NORTJE No, not as far as I can recall. We did not have any reason to assault him because we did not have the background. MR LAMEY Were you waiting for instructions at that stage? MR NORTJE Yes. It was not in our hands anymore, we had completed our task. MR LAMEY Your task was the abduction? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY I accept then that you also had to ensure that you had to meet them at the arranged point. MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Just before I get to that aspect of the clubhouse, how did you get through the border post, did you have false passports? MR NORTJE Yes, we did. MR LAMEY Mr de Kock talked about weapons and that the weapons were in his vehicle. MR NORTJE I know I had a weapon on me. MR LAMEY You will not deny that there were weapons in Mr de Kock's vehicle? MR NORTJE No, I will not deny it, no. MR LAMEY Did you have a weapon with you? MR NORTJE I did have a weapon with me, yes. MR LAMEY Was it a legal weapon, an issued weapon, a police weapon? MR NORTJE I cannot recall, I believe it would have been. I do not know, I cannot pertinently recall that. MR LAMEY Let me take you back. This incident took place before the so-called illegal weapons were taken out of Ovamboland later to Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR NORTJE That is correct, yes. Or I think so. MR LAMEY In other words, it was a weapon which was issued to you, is that correct? MR NORTJE I'm not quite sure if it was my personal weapon or if it was a weapon that I got from the farm, because I had a lot of weapons with me. MR LAMEY But it was a weapon that was in stock at Vlakplaas. MR LAMEY Yes, yes. MR LAMEY It was part of the police ammunition or stockpile. MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Just another aspect. The abduction of Mr Msibi, was there another attempt made the previous day that you carry any knowledge of, that did not realise? MR NORTJE Yes, the previous day we went down to Swaziland and the arrangement was apparently that we will go to a golf course and Msibi will then meet Malaza there and we would have abducted him from there. Things did not work out though, and we then returned that evening. MR LAMEY You then confirm what Brig Schoon said in this regard. MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY When you arrived at the clubhouse, you heard the evidence that at the clubhouse he was questioned or interrogated and also assaulted, did you at stage personally participate in any assault on Mr Msibi? MR NORTJE No, I did not assault or hit him. MR LAMEY You probably expected that the abduction would have a purpose in that they would interrogate him and you also associated yourself with this. MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Is it correct that you were also involved in the transportation of Mr Msibi for there to Vlakplaas that same day? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR NORTJE The same night, yes. MR LAMEY The same night. Then when he arrived or when you brought him to Vlakplaas, was he interrogated there? MR NORTJE Yes, the next day there was interrogation, but then the people from Intelligence came there and ...(intervention) ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR LAMEY That's Police Intelligence? MR NORTJE Yes. They arrived and they started interrogating him, but they had more background to this whole situation, we did not have all of the background. MR LAMEY Did you participate in any assaults? MR NORTJE No, I did not. MR LAMEY Just to deal with that, according to Mr Msibi, in the newspaper report that is Exhibit A in front of the Committee, he said that he was so seriously assaulted at the Oshoek clubhouse that he lost consciousness, what was your impression concerning his personal state? Can you comment if he at any stage lost consciousness or the seriousness of the assault? MR NORTJE Well my opinion of the whole assault situation was that it was not as intense or as violent that he at any stage could, I can't recall that he was lying down or was unconscious as he described it. I cannot recall. If it had happened, it would have left an impression with me, but I cannot remember that he was in such a serious condition. He was assaulted though, he was slapped but he was not as seriously assaulted that it could have made him lose his consciousness. MR LAMEY He was conscious when you transported him to Vlakplaas? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Were there any visible injuries on his body when you took him to Vlakplaas? MR NORTJE No. MR LAMEY Or which you can recall? MR NORTJE No. MR LAMEY Then he mentions a person with the name Willie, now we know, I think everyone knows that you are Willie Nortje, but he mentions that at Vlakplaas - or he's not talking about Vlakplaas, but in the context it seems as if he's referring to a detention at Vlakplaas, then he says "Another policeman named Willie, took part in the night's interrogation." Did you participate in this interrogation? MR NORTJE No, this was the Willie Botha that was working under Gen Stadler's people. The two of them had a relationship - during the interrogation the two of them basically built up a good understanding and I think that is why maybe he recalls his name. ....(transcriber's interpretation) MR LAMEY That was now from Police Intelligence? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Mr Schoon also referred to him in his evidence. MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY Very well. Furthermore, in your statement you also confirm that the day after that he was transported with a military helicopter and Military Intelligence had come to pick him up. MR NORTJE That's correct, yes. MR LAMEY Mr Nortje, you are applying for amnesty for the illegal abduction and arrest that you described in your application as the "unknown handler of Malaza", but you now have confirmed it's Mr Msibi, or any offence or delict that may result from this ...(end of side A of tape) amnesty for any offence concerning the border control regulations, is that correct? MR NORTJE Yes. MR LAMEY As well as it pertains to the fact that you did not do anything to prevent the assault and also the physical removal of Mr Msibi from his vehicle and in such a way that it could have been assault or can be seen as assault, is that correct? MR NORTJE That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY And then other offence that can be concluded from the facts as given, is that correct. MR NORTJE That's correct. MR LAMEY And then concerning the political objectives, you also confirm that as it appears on pages 55 and 56. MR NORTJE That's correct. MR LAMEY You also then agree with what the other applicants have said concerning this, is that correct? MR NORTJE That's correct, yes. MR LAMEY Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Hugo, any cross-examination? MR HUGO No cross-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Nortje, on page 44 of volume 1, or bundle 1, at the bottom of the page you refer to the Head of the Security Branch, and then on page 53 you talk about senior Generals of the Security Police, and on page 112 of the same bundle you say "with the apparent knowledge of senior Generals, the Head of the Security Branch". If people had known, or let me just put it this way, do you know if the people to whom you refer to had knowledge of this before or was this your own observation? MR NORTJE It's an assumption. MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Makondo? MR MAKONDO No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Patel, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, just one aspect. Mr Nortje, during the period that you were at the Oshoek border house, can you confirm whether Mr Msibi was assaulted during that time? MR NORTJE I know that he was assaulted. I do now know who specifically did, I know that Mr de Kock came in later after he was brought from Swaziland. Mr Gert Visser said that he assaulted him, I did not see it because we were going in and out. What happened was that we lived in our quarters not far from there. I know that he was assaulted. I specifically recall that when he was brought from Swaziland and we got the devices, they were very upset and he was assaulted afterwards, but I cannot recall that anybody pertinently sat and questioned him and assaulted him, that did not happen, no. MS PATEL Of the senior members who were involved in this operation and who were present at Oshoek, who can you recall was present during his assault, Msibi's assault? MR NORTJE Gen Stadler was present, Brig Schoon was present. I cannot pertinently say that they were together in the building when he was assaulted. It's very difficult to say. MS PATEL Thank you very much. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Nortje, how long did you wait in the plantation? MR NORTJE Mr Chairperson, as far as I can recall, I think it was about three hours. The reason why I say this is that we sat there waiting for quite a while and we did not know what was going on, because I assumed that arrangements had to be made and I think Mr de Kock and them were still in Swaziland. That's what we thought anyway. And at a certain stage they came to us and told us to take Msibi to the station, to the border post. I cannot say if it was four hours, but I would say it was about late afternoon. If I must guess, I would say it was about 4 o'clock. We approximately waited for about three hours for further instructions, and that is my recollection, yes. ADV BOSMAN There's no clarity about how long Mr Msibi was in the brick house and that is why I'm putting this question to you. According to your recollection, what time would you say you took him there? MR NORTJE Mr Chairperson, if I must say, it was from 4 o'clock onwards, because late that evening we drove back to Pretoria. They came out of Swaziland, it had to be before 10 o'clock because at 10 o'clock the border closes. We could have made certain arrangements or there could have been certain discussions about the whole thing, I would say it's about 12 o'clock that evening when we drove back to Pretoria, because I knew early the next morning we arrived at the farm. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. ADV BOSMAN And the question of liquor, there were facilities for liquor or it was a bar? MR NORTJE Yes, it was a club. There were facilities yes, but I do not think that the local policemen whose place it was, we did not allow them to be there under those circumstances, but I can recall that we gave him any liquor or that anybody used liquor there as he alleges there. It did not make sense that they would have given him that amount of alcohol. ADV BOSMAN Did you notice any leg irons? MR NORTJE It is possible that they could have put the leg irons on as he entered the clubhouse. ADV BOSMAN Did you have leg irons with you? MR NORTJE Yes, we always had with us. ADV BOSMAN Very well, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chairman, I don't have a question thank you. CHAIRPERSON Did you have anything to drink yourself? MR NORTJE No, Mr Chairperson, because as I said, we still had a very long night ahead of us and there was no reason for us to drink at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY No re-examination, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thanks a lot, Mr Nortje, you are excused. MR NORTJE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON It would make sense if Mr Bosch would be next, don't you think so, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Yes, thank you Chairperson, I call applicant Bosch.