amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-16 PRETORIA 3 IZAK DANIEL BOSCH AM3765/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54412&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200816pt.htm ADV BOSMAN Mr Bosch, your full names are already on record, do you once again prefer to take the oath? IZAK DANIEL BOSCH (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Advocate Bosman. Mr Lamey? EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, just briefly once again, to reiterate what we testified about earlier this morning. You submitted an initial amnesty application which was undersigned by you and can be found on page 23 of the documents, to which a typed annexure was attached and in your initial application on page 32, you refer very briefly to the incident, this pen set bomb which was manufactured by the Technical division, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Then we also find in the bundle from page 38 onwards, up to and including 40, a supplementary document of particulars pertaining to your involvement in the incident, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY At this stage you were a member of Vlakplaas, under the command of Mr de Kock. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it true that among others your task at Vlakplaas was technical? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it also correct that you applied for amnesty for other incidents in which you had liaison with the Technical division, and I am referring specifically now to the parcel bomb, the so-called walkman bomb which you also received an instruction for from Col de Kock, to liaise with the Technical division in an attempt to kill Dirk Coetzee after he had exposed the involvement of the Security Police in gross human rights violations? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it correct that your involvement also emanates from an instruction given by Mr de Kock for the Parker pen set bomb in conjunction with the Technical division? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Could you just tell us what information you received from Mr de Kock. MR BOSCH Mr de Kock approached me and asked me to go to the Technical division to liaise with Col WAL, who would then send me to Japie or Kobus Kok to prepare a parcel to be sent to Swaziland. MR LAMEY Then just on that point, you refer to Japie or Kobus Kok, is Mr Japie Kok one of the applicants here today? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY And Kobus Kok, who was that? MR BOSCH That is Mr Japie Kok's brother, they worked together. MR LAMEY So Kobus Kok also worked at the Technical division? MR BOSCH That is correct, and I had liaison with both of them. MR LAMEY Very well. What was Mr de Kock's instruction? MR BOSCH To prepare a pen set which should contain explosives, so that when it is opened and the pens are removed it would detonate and that this parcel should be sent to Swaziland. MR LAMEY And what did you do? MR BOSCH I went to the Technical division in Rebecca Street, where at first I discussed it with Col du Toit and asked whether or not de Kock had discussed it with him, he said that he had knowledge about it, then I went to Japie Kok and from there onwards the matter began to take on shape. MR LAMEY Who physically prepared the bomb? MR BOSCH Japie Kok. MR LAMEY Did you possess sufficient technical knowledge to do it yourself? MR BOSCH No, not at that stage. MR LAMEY Very well. In your affidavit you state that Japie and Kobus Kok prepared the device, can you comment on that? MR BOSCH As I've just stated, I usually dealt with Japie and Kobus at the Technical division, at the time of composing this affidavit I made a mistake because I could not recall who assisted me with the preparation of the parcel. Kobus's name has mistakenly been mentioned. MR LAMEY And you were under the impression at that stage that it was both of them. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Furthermore, what was your task with regard to liaison with the Technical division and the composition of the parcel? MR BOSCH From time to time I went to the Technical division to see if the parcel was ready or not, on a certain day it was indeed ready, I took the parcel and they explained to me how its safety mechanism functioned, it was with a piece of dental floss which had to be pulled out before the parcel was wrapped, it would then protrude and the bomb would detonate itself, then it would be ready. As soon as one opened the container and removed the pen, it would detonate. I took the parcel to the farm, I wrapped it ...(intervention) MR LAMEY Could I just stop you there for a moment. This dental floss mechanism, in other words the dental floss piece was a trigger mechanism, if I had to put it in my own lay terms, which would not activate the bomb at that stage but which would initiate a process which would lead to the detonation of the bomb as soon as the pens were removed? MR BOSCH That is correct, as soon as the dental floss was pulled out it would complete the current and a soon as one opened the container and removed the pen, the bomb would detonate. It was just an extra security mechanism. MR LAMEY If the dental floss mechanism was not removed, then there would be no activation of the bomb? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you have anything to do with the wrapping of the parcel? MR BOSCH Yes, I wrapped the parcel. If I could just indicate to the Committee how I did it. I wrapped the parcel, as with this item, but I left the one side open because the dental floss protruded from there, so I could not wrap the parcel over the dental floss, otherwise they would have to open it again. After I wrapped the parcel I kept the one side open and let the dental floss protrude. I gave it to Flores and told him that the dental floss had to be pulled out and snipped. I gave him tape to tape it with, and the address. MR LAMEY Did you obtain the address? MR BOSCH Yes, I obtained it from Col de Kock. MR LAMEY And what did you understand, to whom would the parcel be posted? MR BOSCH To an ANC cell in Swaziland. MR LAMEY Was there a specific name? MR BOSCH Yes, there was a specific name and a postal address. I recall that there was a name on it, I cannot recall what the name was, but there was definitely a name on it. MR LAMEY Would you be able to recall the address today? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR LAMEY What was your rank at that point? MR BOSCH I was a Sergeant. MR LAMEY Were you present when the parcel was finally addressed? MR BOSCH No. I think it was addressed in Swaziland, and that is also when the wrapping was completed. MR LAMEY You say that a black man took it there. MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY And you handed it to Mr Flores, who is also an applicant? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY And then furthermore, on page 39 you state that the parcel was never claimed and that it remained in the post office for two years after which it was stolen by a postal worker. Where did you get this information from? MR BOSCH After the parcel detonated in the post office, someone told me that it had to have been that parcel which exploded. MR LAMEY You yourself did not read any reports or anything like that? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Can you recall who told you? MR BOSCH I think Col de Kock told me. MR LAMEY You do not have any knowledge of the identity of the person who was ultimately injured as a result of the parcel? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY Do you perhaps know what the size of the charge was? MR BOSCH It had to have fitted into the pen, but I suppose Mr de Kock would be able to elaborate on that. MR LAMEY What sort of Parker pen was it? MR BOSCH It was a set of steel Parker pens, it was rather expensive. MR LAMEY Did you purchase it yourself? MR BOSCH I think Technical purchased it. MR LAMEY I don't know if I've asked you this already, what was your rank at that stage? MR BOSCH I was a Sergeant. MR LAMEY Did you yourself know what the involvement of the addressee was, with the exception that the person was an ANC member? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY Could you just say whether in the normal course of your duties as a subordinate to Mr de Kock, whether you trusted his orders or whether you had any reason to doubt his orders. MR BOSCH I never doubted his orders and I always carried them out. MR LAMEY Did you accept that the bomb would possibly eliminate the addressee who you assumed to be an ANC member? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you accept and believe that your involvement and the order that you received had to do with the task for which Vlakplaas was originated? In other words, the prevention of terrorism in the RSA, as you described it at that time. MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY Then on page 40 you also refer to the political objective and you confirm this? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chair-man. Mr Bosch, the address to which this parcel was sent, you said that Mr de Kock gave it to you. MR BOSCH That is correct, yes. MR HUGO Did he write it down for you or did he give it orally? MR BOSCH No, it was written down on a piece of paper. MR HUGO Was it in Mr de Kock's handwriting or in somebody else's handwriting? MR BOSCH No, it was not Mr de Kock's handwriting. MR HUGO And then you say that Mr de Kock told you that this parcel must be sent to this address and it's an ANC address. MR BOSCH That is correct, yes. MR HUGO And you say that there was a name. MR BOSCH Yes, there was a person's name, plus other information as well as the postal address. There were quite a few things written down. MR HUGO But specifically there was an individual's name written down. MR BOSCH Mr Chairperson, as far as I can recall, yes, I think there was a name. MR HUGO Let me tell you why I'm asking this question, Mr Flores says in his application, page 86 of the bundle, that he addressed this parcel to the Swaziland Council of Churches and it appears to me that that is an organisation in comparison to an individual that you just now mentioned. You see, Mr de Kock says, and I will also put it to Mr Flores, that he's mistaken when he says that this parcel was sent to the Swaziland Council of Churches, because it was another incident that took place. Do you carry any knowledge of that? MR BOSCH No. MR HUGO But the reference to the Swaziland Council of Churches, does it ring a bell? MR BOSCH No, not at all. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Cornelius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Bosch, just to put it clearly, Security would usually investigate a certain incident and then put through a request to Vlakplaas, as the operational wing of the Police. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS So usually when such a request was made, the investigation would have been completed and the political decision would have been made and you would have received the request? MR BOSCH There was nothing for us to investigate or to clarify or to doubt, orders were given and we dealt strictly according to those parameters. MR CORNELIUS That is what Mr de Kock has said, he accepted that Freek Pienaar had conducted a thorough investigation and he acted according to that. MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Magopa, Chris Magopa, was he an askari? MR BOSCH That is correct, he was a PAC member, he was an askari. MR CORNELIUS You have no doubt that the address was addressed to a particular person? MR BOSCH Yes, I can recall a name of a person. MR CORNELIUS So this particular course of action was an old modus operandi, do you recall the case of Jeannette Schoon and Ruth First? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Similar action was taken during those incidents, where parcel bombs were addressed to these persons. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And in the case of Jeannette Schoon, the daughter was also killed. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And I understand that amnesty has already been granted for that matter. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS If you state in your application that the address was brought to the parcel by a black Vlakplaas member, are you certain of your facts or not? MR BOSCH No, I'm certain of it because Mr Flores and I discussed it. It would have been very difficult for a white person to enter a post office in Swaziland and to post something there, it would have been far easier for one of our black members to go, put the address on the parcel and post it. MR CORNELIUS But that is an inference that you have drawn. MR BOSCH That is correct, because I was not in Swaziland when it was posted. MR CORNELIUS So if Mr Flores says that he sent Chris Magopa in to post it? MR BOSCH Thank I would accept it as such. MR CORNELIUS Yes, but that does not mean that you are correct in saying that a black man put the address on the parcel? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr van der Merwe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Bosch, just firstly, you've already admitted that you made a mistake with Mr Kobus Kok in this matter and I would just like to place on record, and it's my instructions, that he was not involved in this at all. MR BOSCH That is correct, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Then in the second instance, my instructions from Mr Japie Kok is that this device was tested at Vlakplaas, at the shooting range, to see if it works properly before they send the final product. MR BOSCH Yes, that is possible, we used so much explosives at the Vlakplaas shooting range, I cannot say this was this or this was that, but I do not doubt it. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Bosch, the address that was eventually given to Mr Flores to put onto the parcel, can you recall whether you handed the same piece of paper that Mr de Kock had given you, to him, or how was that information relayed to ...(intervention) MR BOSCH That is correct, Chairperson, it was the same paper that Mr de Kock gave me and I gave it to Mr Flores. We did not rewrite it or anything like that, it went like that to Mr Flores. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions for this witness, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Just one question. Is it not, Mr Bosch, is it not perhaps possible that Flores is confusing this particular incident with some other incident in which the Swaziland Council of Churches was involved, or was the subject of discussion amongst yourselves? MR BOSCH Chairperson, I cannot really respond on that. As I have already stated in my evidence, I cannot recall the Swaziland Council of Churches, I remember a name and I remember a postal address. I'm working on the assumption that if it was the address of the Swaziland Council of Churches, then anyone could have taken it, it may have been a false address or a false post-box where the persons used the name and then attached the Swaziland Council of Churches, so that it would not elicit any suspicion with the Swazi authorities. That is my only conclusion. ADV SANDI Do you know if the Swaziland Council of Churches was ever identified as a target or part of the enemy outside there? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson, I personally did not work on them. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Sandi. Any re-examination, Mr Lamey? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Just to get clarity on the last question, Chairperson, of the Honourable Committee Member Sandi. Do I understand you correctly to you say that the addressee, the name of the addressee would not be an organisation because then anybody could open it? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct. MR LAMEY It was an individual? MR BOSCH Yes, it was. MR LAMEY Did I understand you correctly, and I do not want to lead you or ask leading questions, I just want to clarify this, the rest of the address could have been the Swaziland Council of Churches? MR BOSCH Possibly, Chairperson, possibly, but I don't know the postal address of the Swaziland ... (transcriber's interpretation) MR LAMEY But your recollection is not very clear concerning this? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Mr Bosch, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is there any other evidence you want to lead in respect of Mr Bosch, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY I've got no further evidence, thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank concludes Mr Bosch's application? MR LAMEY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I wonder if we are following the sequence, but I'm not married to it, it would appear Mr van der Merwe represents Messrs Kok and du Toit, 3 and 5, would I be correct? MR VAN DER MERWE That's right, Mr Chairman, but we have agreed that my colleague, Mr Cornelius, will lead Mr Flores first and then I will be last with the two members of the Technical Section. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. I think it's more appropriate that we've got the manufacture of the bomb as the last part. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Will we send it off? MR CORNELIUS I call Mr Flores, thank you Mr Chair.