amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-16 PRETORIA 3 LEON WILLIAM FLORES AM4361/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54413&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200816pt.htm ADV BOSMAN Mr Flores, can you just give us your full names. LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr Cornelius? EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Flores, you're an applicant in this specific amnesty application, you properly prepared the amnesty application and filed it with the Cape Town office, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You were a member of C-Section of the Police, called Vlakplaas, in what rank? MR FLORES A Sergeant. MR CORNELIUS You received an instruction - pardon, Mr Chairman, your application is as referred to in the bundle of documents, starting at folio 53, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS MR FLORES I do, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS More specifically on page 85, you give the merits of this specific application of yours, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Could you shortly give a resume of what happened. You received instructions, and what happened then? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I can't recall the specific date and time, but I was called to the office at Vlakplaas, by Mr de Kock. Present with Mr de Kock was Mr Bosch and Mr Japie Kok and together with myself was Mr Chris Magopa, one of the askaris, an ex-PAC member. Mr de Kock then just told us that he had a, like a mission for us to do, we had to deliver a parcel off at Swaziland. Steve Bosch then gave us a rundown of how the Parker pen worked, due to the fact that before sealing the Parker pen package-wise, I had to activate the first trigger mechanism of the Parker pen, by extracting a piece of dental floss till it cannot go any further and then cut it off flush with the box and then wrap the last piece of that where upon that I had to ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Can you just hold it one second. Mr Bosch explained that the package was wrapped on all sides except the one side which a little flap was kept open with the dental floss coming out, is that correct? MR FLORES Correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Right. MR FLORES On conclusion of the explanation to us, Chris Magopa and myself then left for Swaziland. We entered through Mahamba border post, which is near Piet Retief, and travelled towards Manzini. I estimate at about five kilometres before reaching Manzini we stopped. That's when I did the procedures by pulling out the dental floss, cutting it flush with the box, taping the wrapping closed. Listening to the other gentlemen's statements, I was under the impression I did bring in the address or ...(indistinct) the address, addressed to the Swaziland Council of Churches. I could be mistaken there as other evidence was led now. MR CORNELIUS Were you given the address on a piece of paper or not? MR FLORES Yes, yes, I was given the address. MR CORNELIUS Who gave that to you? MR FLORES Steve Bosch, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you kept that with you at all times? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS You didn't have other letters or documentation with you that you could have become confused with the address? MR FLORES No, not at that stage, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS It is possible that you might be confusing the Swaziland Council of Churches with another operation where you had to deliver a letter like testified by Mr de Kock? MR FLORES Yes, once Mr de Kock mentioned that, which was an incident performed by Military Intelligence if I'm not mistaken, it did ring a bell. I could be confusing it, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You agree it will be nonsensical to send it to a broad Council of Churches? MR FLORES That's for definite. MR CORNELIUS What happened then after you activated the bomb and you put the adhesive tape on, what did you do? MR FLORES We then drove, I drove towards Manzini, I parked roughly about a block away, Mr Chairperson, from the Manzini Post Office, where I then handed over the parcel to Chris Magopa, who then in his turn went and posted it to the addressee. We then returned back to Vlakplaas. Mr Chairperson, it would be between six months to year nothing was reported on the incident of the parcel, then I heard, I can't say from who I heard, but on the farm from someone I heard that the parcel had been collected by one of the post office employees, it was opened and it detonated and apparently the person opening it had lost a finger or two or a hand, I'm not sure. MR CORNELIUS Did you at the time realise you were committing an offence by posting an explosive device? MR FLORES At that time, no Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You knew it was illegal to post explosive devices? MR FLORES Yes, yes. MR CORNELIUS And you at all times acted within the course and scope of your duties and in the execution of your instructions from a superior officer, Mr de Kock? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you work on a need-to-know basis? MR FLORES I did, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you enquire about the reason why you had to send it to this address or anything of that nature? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you accept that there was a political decision made by your seniors? MR FLORES I did, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you at all times act in the interests of your country? MR FLORES I did, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any personal hate of this addressed victim? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any bonus of any nature whatsoever to commit this deed? MR FLORES Nothing, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You just received your normal salary as envisaged by the Act? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You're applying for amnesty in this matter for conspiracy to commit murder in Swaziland, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You're also applying for amnesty for defeating the ends of justice, because you didn't disclose anything when you came back to the Republic. MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you are also asking for amnesty for all possible offences under the Explosives Act, which are numerous, the transportation of illegal explosives, the crossing of the border with explosives an so forth, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Lastly, when you crossed the border, did you cross the border legally or illegally? MR FLORES Legally, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS With a passport? MR FLORES With a passport. CHAIRPERSON In other words, your own passport? MR FLORES My own passport, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Not a forged passport? MR FLORES Not that I can recall, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI I take it that on the basis of what you've just said you still have the same passport? MR FLORES I beg your pardon? ADV SANDI Is this the same - this passport you're talking about, is it the same passport you used on the day in question? CHAIRPERSON It must have expired. MR FLORES No, no, no, Mr Chairperson, no, that one has totally lapsed already. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr Hugo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Flores, please correct me if I'm wrong, but did Mr de Kock at any stage when you were called in initially, tell you that this particular explosive device was to be sent to Swaziland, more specifically for attention of the ANC? MR FLORES It is possible, ja, it is possible, but I cannot recall it as such. MR HUGO You just can't recall that? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HUGO Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no questions to this witness, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chair, just one question. Mr Flores, you don't have any technical background regarding the building of bombs and explosive devices, is that correct? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE So your evidence you wouldn't describe as the evidence of a specialist or an expert? MR FLORES Not at all. MR VAN DER MERWE It's just how you perceived what happened? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Flores, there's this other incident that you say you might have confused this specific incident that we are dealing with now, can you give us a bit of information about that? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I can't elaborate on that. If I say I recall such an incident, in those years we used to have a component called Trevits, which was like an office desk who did the counter-revolutionary acts or all information, whether it was from National Intelligence, Military Intelligence or the Police as such, the Security Branch, where they evaluated the stuff and we'd get reports and at that stage at Vlakplaas, I worked in the Swaziland/Eastern Transvaal area with Chris Magopa, so all incidents regarding Swaziland as a whole, would come to my attention, I would peruse through those circulars as such and I think one of those I recall that there was such an instance, but I cannot elaborate on that as such. MS PATEL So bar the fact that the name rings a bell, the Swaziland Council of Churches, you can't recall what specific information there might have been around that? MR FLORES Not at all, no, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Or whether an operation was launched against them. MR FLORES Nothing in specific detail, no. MS PATEL Okay. How many other incidents were you involved in, of a similar nature, where you had to drop off a parcel to be posted to another place? MR FLORES Chairperson, I've posted many pieces in Swaziland, plain letters just to DLBs and that. MS PATEL But where we're dealing with an explosive of this nature, how many other parcels were you involved in posting? MR FLORES This was the first one. MS PATEL Okay. So it would be very difficult to confuse this with any other incident then, of a similar nature? Given that it's the only incident that you were involved in. MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, yes, the package as such, but I could be confused with the address as such. MS PATEL Okay. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, grant me a moment. Besides the fact that you might have confused the question of whether it was addressed to the Swaziland Council of Churches, can you recollect whether a specific person's name was on the envelope or the parcel? MR FLORES In my application I didn't mention it, Mr Chairperson, but when the others testified, the other applicants testified now, it did ring a bell, so there is a possibility there was, I did bring on a specific name plus the address. MS PATEL But you don't have any independent recollection of that? MR FLORES I beg your pardon? MS PATEL You don't have an independent recollection? MR FLORES No, not at all. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI I don't have a question, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Flores, you testified that you heard that it exploded, it was not claimed and it exploded in a toilet, do you recall your evidence in that respect? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON I see on page 86 of the annexure to your application you say "We received information" That would probably be the third paragraph from the bottom. MR FLORES I'm with you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you heard, you never received it because there should be a difference between the two? MR FLORES Yes, well what I was trying to emphasise there, I beg your pardon, is that it was brought under my attention that we did hear that, I don't know from where it came, that there was an explosion. CHAIRPERSON When you say "It was further reported that the man lost one arm" would it be similar to what you've heard? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then the last paragraph is intriguing, that "On enquiry it was found" What are you referring to there? MR FLORES Well what I tried to state there, Mr Chairperson, was I presume that Mr Pienaar at Piet Retief or one of the other members who worked the Swazi area more frequently than we did, obviously had to enquire what happened at the, if it was our parcel or what, seeing that it was gone for such a long time, and I think I tried to reflect here that on the enquiry. I can't specifically say it was my enquiry or whose it was. CHAIRPERSON This pen holder, how many pens were inside, did you look? MR FLORES I didn't open it, not at all. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that there was a brand new Parker pen then? MR FLORES It was told to me that it was a Parker pen set. Col de Kock will never use second-hand stuff, he will always buy the best and new ones, for any operations. CHAIRPERSON Even if when he was out of pocket he would still go for the new ones? Thank you. MR FLORES Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-exam, Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have none, thank you Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Flores, you are excused. MR FLORES Thank you, Mr Chair. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any other evidence in support of Mr Flores, Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no other evidence, thank you Judge, that concludes ... CHAIRPERSON That closes the application of Mr Flores. Thank you very much. Mr van der Merwe, who are you calling first? MR VAN DER MERWE I am calling Mr du Toit.