amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-21 PRETORIA 5 DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS AM3745/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54420&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200821pt.htm DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is properly sworn. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Brits, you may be seated. Mr Cornelius? EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Brits, your application appears in bundle 1 and starts on page 46 up until page 51, is that correct? MR BRITS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS During the submitting of this application you did not have legal representation and you then signed a second statement attached, Annexure B, where you describe your career, your personal circumstances and your experiences as a police officer, and then also the merits of the case, is that correct? MR BRITS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Insofar as it pertains to the political background it will fall under Annexure A. MR BRITS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You are an applicant in this matter and you've given your co-operation with the Attorney-General, as well as the Investigative team of the TRC. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS You were a so-called footsoldier serving in C-Section, Vlakplaas, what was your rank? MR BRITS I was a Warrant Officer. MR CORNELIUS And your Commander was at all times, Col de Kock? MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS You received all your instructions from him? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS You have heard the evidence of Col de Kock, can you tell this Committee how it happened that you became involved in this case. MR BRITS As far as I can recall, Mr Chairperson, Col de Kock called me an gave me an instruction and told me that I must accompany a member of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, and go and create a DLB in the East Rand. MR CORNELIUS A DLB is a dead letter box? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS Is it common practice that such requests were directed towards Vlakplaas? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS What did you do after you received this information? MR BRITS I went to Lionel Snyman, that is ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Your co-applicant? MR BRITS That is correct. ... and he provided me with certain weaponry. As far as I can recall it was three landmines, two or three handgrenades. MR CORNELIUS And I see also in your application you talk about a Makarov pistol. MR BRITS Yes, I had that in my personal - I had that on my person at that stage. When we created this DLB, I placed the Makarov and the magazine with rounds, in this DLB. MR CORNELIUS These weapons were so-called East-bloc weapons, is that correct? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS After you were issued these weapons from Mr Snyman, what did you do? MR BRITS I had an appointment with Mr Koekemoer and on the Sunday afternoon I drove to his house. That is the member of Murder and Robbery unit. MR CORNELIUS Mr Koekemoer from East Rand Murder and Robbery? MR BRITS That's correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR BRITS We loaded it into his vehicle from my vehicle and we drove to Nelspruit in the vehicle. It was a Sunday, as far as I can recall. Outside of Nelspruit we went to go and look at a place where we then parked the vehicle. We took out a shovel, dug a hole and put the weaponry in the hole. MR CORNELIUS If you say outside of Nelspruit, where approximately is it? MR BRITS It was on the way to Komatipoort, on the left-hand side is the kaNyamazane turnoff, it's between the two turnoffs. MR CORNELIUS Did you then dig a hole? MR BRITS Yes, we did. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR BRITS We then buried the weapons. MR CORNELIUS If you say "we", is it just yourself and Koekemoer? MR BRITS No, we took turns in digging this hole while the other one guarded to see who's coming. I then placed the stuff in the hole and covered it. MR CORNELIUS Did you wrap them? MR BRITS Yes, we wrapped them in black bags. MR CORNELIUS Rubbish bags? MR BRITS Yes, rubbish bags. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR BRITS We then drove from there to Malelane, there we bought 12 beers and put R50 worth of petrol in Koekemoer's car. We then drove to Benoni, where I got my vehicle. The next day I arrived at Vlakplaas, I saw Col de Kock and I told him that the operation was successful. MR CORNELIUS You did not participate in the murder or the elimination of the victim? MR BRITS No. MR CORNELIUS But you understood that somebody could have been, or may be killed in this. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you later heard that it did occur? MR BRITS Yes, I saw in a newspaper article that Mr Koekemoer took a person out for identification outside of Nelspruit, and I then told my co-applicant, Lionel Snyman, I told him "it seems as if it is this DLB that we created." MR CORNELIUS And you heard somebody was killed? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS At a later stage were you taken to make certain identifications? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What did you have to do? MR BRITS I had to go and identify the place where we established the DLB. MR CORNELIUS Could you do it? MR BRITS I couldn't do it, no. MR CORNELIUS If I recall correctly, the reason - what was the reason why you couldn't do it? MR BRITS After we established that DLB, there was a lot of rain, the road washed away, it was broader than before, there was a lot of soil because of the mountain close-by and there was a lot of ... MR CORNELIUS Geographically the area changed. MR BRITS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You worked on a need-to-know basis, is that correct? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS So you did not ask things that you did not need to know? MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Apart from the salary that you received, did you receive any remuneration for this? MR BRITS No, not for this specific incident. MR CORNELIUS You did not know the victim, you worked on the information that you received from Security, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You did not have any feelings of malice towards this person? MR BRITS No. MR CORNELIUS Did you liaise with Gen Engelbrecht during this operation? MR BRITS As far as I can recall, no, I didn't. MR CORNELIUS I see in your previous application that Col de Kock said that you reported back to Gen Engelbrecht in person, what is your comment? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can recall. MR CORNELIUS Just another correction. In the application of Mr de Kock, it says that Lionel Snyman established the DLB. MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, I did it. MR CORNELIUS Were you accompanied by Snyman? MR BRITS No, he only provided me with the weapons or ammunition. MR CORNELIUS You apply for amnesty for various offences that you committed under the Explosives Act, as well as under the Weapons and Ammunition Act, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You also apply for amnesty for conspiracy to murder as well as being an accomplice, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you never made known or disclosed this information and in a certain sense it was also defeating the ends of justice and you also apply for amnesty for that offence, is that correct? MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you also apply for any other delicts that may flow from the actions concerning this incident, is that correct? MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. When you say on page 47, (iv): "The nature and details: Establish DLB with landmines, handgrenades and weapons at kaNyamazane. The members involved: Col de Kock, Capt Koekemoer and Snyman." What are you talking about when you say that? MR BRITS Mr Chairperson, Col de Kock gave me the instruction, Koekemoer accompanied me, Snyman provided the landmines and the rest of the ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Brits, did you read through the documents, the statements of the other applicants in front of the Committee today? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you probably heard that on behalf of Gen Engelbrecht it was put to Mr de Kock, that Gen Engelbrecht has no knowledge and gave no instructions concerning this incident. MR BRITS I heard that, yes. MR HATTINGH Now I'd like to mention it to you that as far as I understand Mr Koekemoer's evidence and statement, it also seems as if he's going to deny that he accompanied you to Nelspruit to establish this weapon stockpile. MR BRITS That is possibly so. MR HATTINGH And that he will also deny that he approached de Kock or Engelbrecht to assist in the elimination of a person. MR BRITS It could be so, yes. MR HATTINGH Somewhere Mr de Kock had to receive information that Mr Koekemoer is going to have a hand in the elimination of the deceased. MR BRITS That's correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Now you say - if I can just look at your affidavit again, the affidavit that you filed - if I can just get the page reference, it appears in bundle 2 at page 79. Where did you make this affidavit? MR BRITS It was the investigative officer of the Attorney-General. MR HATTINGH And this was with the view of appearing as a possible witness to testify against Mr de Kock in his trial, not so? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH It was not just concerning this incident, but also various other incidents where you were involved and certain statements were taken from you. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who from the Investigative team took down this statement concerning this incident? MR BRITS It was a Capt Liesk. MR HATTINGH And this statement was made at their offices? MR BRITS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well. In this statement you say, and this is now paragraph 3 "During 1991, I cannot recall the date, Col de Kock phoned me and told me that I must pick things up from Lionel Snyman. At that stage I thought it had something to do with weapons." MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Did he first tell you to go and pick things up at Lionel Snyman, before you got the instructions to assist Koekemoer? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, if you look at paragraph 4 "He also further informed me that I must contact Detective-Capt Koekemoer of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit and together we must go to the Eastern Transvaal." ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR HATTINGH How sure are you about the fact that he mentioned Koekemoer's name, because he said that he did not even know who the person at the East Rand was. MR BRITS I'm very sure about this, Mr Chairperson, because I said here Detective Koekemoer, but we call him "Koekies", and he said that I must go and assist "Koekies". MR HATTINGH And the further information appearing here, saying that you have to go to the Eastern Transvaal, did he also tell you that? MR BRITS Yes, Mr Chairperson. I said Eastern Transvaal here, but he actually said Nelspruit. MR HATTINGH Did he tell you what you have to do at Nelspruit? MR BRITS No, he just told me that I must contact Koekemoer and I must pick up things from Lionel Snyman and accompany Koekemoer to Nelspruit. MR HATTINGH Did you then go to Koekemoer's house as you testified? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You knew him well, not so? MR BRITS Yes, I knew him very well. MR HATTINGH You were also stationed at the East Rand, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What section? MR BRITS The Diamond and Gold Branch. MR HATTINGH And you then got to know him from there? MR BRITS Not in the true sense of the word, although we did liaise at that stage with him, but I got to know him better when I started working at the Security Branch. MR HATTINGH Did you become good friends? MR BRITS Yes, very good friends. MR HATTINGH And is there any reason why you would incriminate him here by saying that you went with him to establish a weapons stockpile? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS No, not at all. MR HATTINGH And you do not carry any malice towards him. MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You say as far as you can recall you did not liaise with Gen Engelbrecht, is that correct? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that you could have been in contact with him and you just forgot about it? MR BRITS It is possible but not likely, Mr Chairperson, because I'm a junior officer and it was not my position to make contact with somebody on that level. MR HATTINGH But if somebody gave you instructions to do it, then it wouldn't be strange, not so? MR BRITS No. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that you just could have forgotten about it? MR BRITS Yes, it is possible. MR HATTINGH You contacted Gen Engelbrecht often, not so? MR BRITS Yes. MR HATTINGH In connection with various incidents? MR BRITS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you also testified about this in the past? MR BRITS That is correct. MR HATTINGH So it is possible that you did contact him, but you just forgot about it. MR BRITS Yes, that is true. MR HATTINGH When you arrived at Mr Koekemoer's house and you drove away, did he tell you what you were going to do? MR BRITS I cannot recall. It is possible that he did tell me or mention it to me, but it was not really important. I had an instruction to create a DLB and that is what we did. MR HATTINGH But you were not curious about the whole purpose was of this DLB? MR BRITS No, I wasn't, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you can recall that while you were still my client, shortly after the Goldstone Commission released its report, you and other members of Vlakplaas, myself and my attorney drove down with you to the Lowveld to inspect and we inspected various places, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And we inspected various places. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Can you recall that when we drove back from Komatipoort, we drove past this place, and I'm not quite sure if it was you or one of the other members who indicated a hill with a large rock face, was it you or was it one of the other members? MR BRITS It was one of the other members. MR HATTINGH But is my description correct, that up against the mountain or hill there was a big rock cliff? MR BRITS The mountain was in the right side of Komatipoort, Chairperson, the rock was on the left side by the river. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR HATTINGH And when I noticed it and I said, "So, what about it?", and this person, I cannot recall who it was, told me, "Just remember this place, you will at a later stage hear about it." MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson, I think it was Lionel Snyman. MR HATTINGH Was the place where you created the DLB? MR BRITS Yes, it was in that area. MR HATTINGH Very well. And that was after this incident to which was referred to at that stage, although it was not mentioned by name? MR BRITS That is correct. MR HATTINGH You could not at a later stage identify the place, but photographs were taken - Mr Chairperson, I was not present at the previous hearing, I only have copies of the photographs, I don't know if you have the original photographs. CHAIRPERSON It is the same with us, we don't have the actual photos. I don't know with the Evidence Leader. MS PATEL I have the originals, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Would you want the originals, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH If possible, yes please, Mr Chairman. Thank you. Mr Brits, I will now show you photograph 1 which is the original photograph of the photocopy that appears on page 63 of bundle 2, and then the photographs that follow on that. This person standing with the checked shirt, with the weapon under the left arm, is that Mr Koekemoer? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Do you know who is standing in front of him? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I know it is quite difficult for you because the photograph does not cover a very wide area but just a specific small area, I would like you to go through photograph 1 and more specifically photograph 2. Look at the original, does that look like the area where you created the DLB? MR BRITS It is possible, Mr Chairperson, because there's a river in the background and the river was in the background. MR HATTINGH He also mentions in his affidavit during the de Kock hearing, that there was a cut down tree stump, it's very clear in photograph 2. Can you recall the stump? MR BRITS No. MR HATTINGH Now it appears in photograph 3 as if there is a hole that has been dug very close to this sawn down tree stump. MR BRITS It does look like it, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you recall if you dug this hole close to this tree stump? MR BRITS No, I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Let us look at photograph 5, there we see three - are they limpet mines, or are they just ordinary landmines? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS Ordinary landmines. MR HATTINGH Can you see any other weaponry on this photograph? I do not know if it's a handgrenade in the front of this photograph. MR BRITS Yes, there's a pistol. CHAIRPERSON It is not very clear in the photocopy. MR HATTINGH I will give you the original. CHAIRPERSON As soon as you are finished with your questioning. MR HATTINGH I notice there is another bundle of originals. CHAIRPERSON I'm indebted to you. MR HATTINGH It's Photograph 5 that we are dealing with now, in front of the two mines there's a black pistol with a brown handgrip, how does that pistol compare to the pistol that you left at the DLB? MR BRITS It could be the same pistol, it does like a Makarov. MR HATTINGH And the landmines, how does that compare with what you received from Mr Snyman and buried there? MR BRITS The landmines that I received from Mr Snyman were wrapped in black bags, so I cannot say if it is the same. MR HATTINGH But there were three of them? MR BRITS Yes. MR HATTINGH And you can see three here? MR BRITS Yes. MR HATTINGH Then you can see there is still leftover black plastic bag shreds or pieces of bag in the background. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH I think it's clearer on one of the previous photographs, photograph 4. Is that a black plastic bag behind the tree? MR BRITS It does seem like it. MR HATTINGH Or is it a person lying there? I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON It looks like a person, I see a hand. MR HATTINGH I also see a hand, yes. Very well. Photograph 8 is a photograph of the pistol that was found there. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is that a Makarov pistol? MR BRITS Yes, as far as my knowledge goes, it is. MR HATTINGH And is it similar to the one that you left behind there? MR BRITS Yes, it's similar. MR HATTINGH Was the one that you left behind loaded? MR BRITS Yes, it was. MR HATTINGH And the magazine was full of rounds? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you recall if there was one in the chamber? MR BRITS No, I cannot. MR HATTINGH Here are photos indicating the road - I have not had an opportunity to study the key of the document, are you able to say whether this concurs with the facility where you set up the DLB? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. As I've said, the mountain is on the right-hand side and the large rock would have been on the left. MR HATTINGH Is this how you study photo 1 now? MR BRITS That's correct. MR HATTINGH And on photo 2 one also sees the mountain in the background. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And with photo number 4 we see the rock on the other side. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is that more-or-less the area where you stopped then to establish this weapons cache point? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You drove past there many times, is that not so, Mr Brits? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you worked there for a long time, so the vicinity was familiar to you. MR BRITS Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that Mr de Kock told you after you returned from Nelspruit, to report to Gen Engelbrecht that you had set up the cache point? MR BRITS It's possible, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you know the deceased? MR BRITS No, I did not, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You were never involved in any operation with him? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were you ever involved in any operations along with Mr Coetzee or Pretorius? MR BRITS Not that I can recall, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Will you grant me a moment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr van den Berg? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The instruction that you received from Mr de Kock was according to you, to assist Mr Koekemoer or to accompany Mr Koekemoer to the Eastern Transvaal to set up a DLB. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And do I understand correctly that there was no mention in that instruction or discussion of the fact that an informer would have to be killed? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson, there was not. MR VAN DEN BERG And do I understand you correctly that you visited Mr Koekemoer's house a few times? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And on one or two occasions you were there with your girlfriend, visiting Mr Koekemoer and his wife? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG You allege that you went there on a Sunday, for purposes of the establishment of this DLB. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG You drove to the Eastern Transvaal with Mr Koekemoer's vehicle, is that correct? MR BRITS Yes, his State vehicle. MR VAN DEN BERG His State vehicle, that's correct. Do you recall what type of car it was? MR BRITS It was a white Sierra. MR VAN DEN BERG When this alleged incident took place, how long were you at Vlakplaas? MR BRITS Approximately five years, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And if my memory does not fail me, Vlakplaas was not a place where one would keep records of where you would go, today you went to Nelspruit, tomorrow you go to Brits, you did not keep such records, you did not keep a pocket book? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, I did not. MR VAN DEN BERG And you did not use normal documents which an everyday policeman would use? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Would you agree that Mr Koekemoer had to keep records of where he had to drive to and for what purposes he was using this State vehicle? MR BRITS I would believe that he was supposed to do so, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Would it not have been strange or have caused uncomfortable questions if he drove his vehicle to Nelspruit, 3-400 kilometres away and back? MR BRITS Mr Koekemoer at that stage was one of the senior Investigators in his unit and I do not think that many questions would be put to him if he used the vehicle, because they were on stand-by many times and they had to drive quickly to go and do something or perform some task. MR VAN DEN BERG But would a report flow from that? MR BRITS I believe one would have flowed from that. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Koekemoer denies that this incident took place, that he accompanied you to the Eastern Transvaal to establish this fictitious DLB. MR BRITS As I've already said, Chairperson, that is how it happened, so I cannot say anything on Mr Koekemoer's behalf. MR VAN DEN BERG You cannot recall what you discussed with him when you drove there? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. As I've said, we knew each other quite well and in general we could have discussed anything, but we did not discuss this. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Hattingh asked you whether you were not curious about the establishment of this DLB. MR BRITS No, Chairperson. As I have said, I was not curious, it was my instruction and I did not ask any questions. MR VAN DEN BERG According to you, you were good friends, you trusted each other, why did you not ask him? MR BRITS This was an arrangement between Col de Kock and Capt Koekemoer and I did not need to know about it, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG If I understand your answer correctly, the arrangement was made between de Kock and Koekemoer, is that how you understood it? MR BRITS Yes, I received my instruction from Col de Kock. MR VAN DEN BERG And you have heard that Col de Kock did not make these arrangements, that he did not even know the person's name at Murder and Robbery on the East Rand. MR BRITS As I have testified earlier, Chairperson, he did. MR VAN DEN BERG You refer to three landmines. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. I am not sure whether it was two or three handgrenades and I placed my personal Makarov there. MR VAN DEN BERG So the Makarov was from you personally? MR BRITS Yes, correct. MR VAN DEN BERG And you say two or three handgrenades. MR BRITS Yes, I'm not certain whether it's two or three. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you recall what type of handgrenades they were? MR BRITS They were of Eastern origin. It's a rough type of handgrenade, it was not ... CHAIRPERSON Like a pineapple perhaps? MR BRITS Yes, like a pineapple. MR VAN DEN BERG There is a statement, let me just find it, of a Mr van Zyl, I think, P J van Zyl, on page 21 of volume 2 - perhaps before we arrive at that aspect, the handgrenades and the landmines and the Makarovs were all in the DLB in the black refuse bags. MR BRITS The pistol I placed on top. MR VAN DEN BERG And the handgrenades, where were they? MR BRITS I cannot recall whether I placed the handgrenades with the landmines. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you recall whether they were in the bag? MR BRITS I do not recall, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Let us study van Zyl's affidavit, this is in the post-mortem inquest, he mentions a TM46 landmine, was this the type of landmine which was supplied? MR BRITS That is so, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Is it so, or is it possible? MR BRITS It's possible, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then you pointed out the photo of the Makarov, and the handgrenades - well, there is no mention of handgrenades, except in paragraph 9 of this statement. And mention is made of steel balls, similar to that which is found in a M75 handgrenade, do you see that? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG But there was no other handgrenade in the DLB. MR BRITS Not according to the statement, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then if we study Mr Koekemoer's statement, page 89 of volume 2, if we study page 92, paragraph 19 thereof, there no mention is made of handgrenades. It says "3 TM46 landmines, the Makarov and the rounds of ammunition." MR BRITS I see that, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And if we have a look at Mr Koekemoer's version, one handgrenade exploded. You don't know about this because you were not there? MR BRITS That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG But according to your evidence there were two or three handgrenades. MR BRITS That's how I recall it, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG What happened to the other two or the other one? MR BRITS I do not know, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG You say in your evidence-in-chief that you could not identify the place later. MR BRITS That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG Because of certain circumstances that had changed. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then I just would like to put Mr Koekemoer's version to you. He denies that he was with you to establish this DLB, and you have already commented on that. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And he denies that the death of the deceased here was anything else but self-defence. Can you comment? MR BRITS I cannot comment. MR VAN DEN BERG And from your discussion with him and from your discussion with Col de Kock, no mention was made and there was no talk of murder of an informer or of a former informer. MR BRITS Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairperson, I'd like to take an instruction but I don't want to have the matter stand down or anything like that. Perhaps if Mr Hurwitz is ready with his cross-examination and if there's anything else, I might mention it after Mr Hurwitz has completed. If that would be in order. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we'll take it in that way, Mr Hurwitz would cross-examine and if you do come up with something, you'll do it after him. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG STANDS OVER CHAIRPERSON Mr Hurwitz? MR HURWITZ Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I don't have too many questions for this witness. CHAIRPERSON Don't regret it, Mr Hurwitz. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ Mr Brits, do you know Manuel Olifant? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Are you aware of - so you're not aware of any officer/sub-officer relationship that would exist between Pretorius and Coetzee and Mr Olifant? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ So are you aware of any instructions which may or may not have been given by Pretorius or Coetzee to Olifant, concerning this matter? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I have no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HURWITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hurwitz. Mr Jonker? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONKER Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Brits, where did you receive this instruction from Mr de Kock to go to the East Rand? MR BRITS At Vlakplaas, Chairperson. MR JONKER If you study page 79, volume 2, your statement there in paragraph 3 states "During 1991, I cannot recall the date, Col de Kock called me and told me that I had to pick up some stuff from Lionel Snyman." MR BRITS That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Where were you when he told you? MR BRITS I was in the East Rand, Chairperson. MR JONKER You see you just said now, Sir, that you received this instruction at Vlakplaas, and now you are saying that you were in the East Rand. Where did you receive this instruction? MR BRITS I received it at Vlakplaas, Chairperson. Things I said here was not stated in detail. Col de Kock called me and told me he wanted to see me and at Vlakplaas he gave me the instruction. So he called me and told me that I have to receive things from Lionel Snyman, but the instruction to go to Eastern Transvaal with Koekemoer, I received at Vlakplaas. MR JONKER So at Vlakplaas, what was the instruction you received? MR BRITS That I had to accompany Koekemoer after I picked up the things from Lionel Snyman. He told me, "pick up the things from Lionel Snyman", and I did not know what it was. MR JONKER You did not know what you had to go and do there with Koekemoer? MR BRITS No, he told that I have to go to Koekemoer on the East Rand and then we have to go to Nelspruit. MR JONKER To do what? MR BRITS To establish a DLB. MR JONKER You see, Sir, if you study paragraph 4 of your statement, there you say "He also informed me that I had to contact Capt Koekemoer of East Rand Murder and Robbery and accompany him to the Eastern Transvaal. At that stage I did not know what was going on." But now you say that you were told to establish a DLB. MR BRITS It's possible that he could have said it, Chairperson. MR JONKER Because at this stage you had time to think about this incident and at that stage you didn't know what you had to go and do in the East Rand, but in the meantime you have now gleamed what you were supposed to do in the Eastern Transvaal. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And you see further in your statement in paragraph 5, the last sentence there "At that stage I suspected that we will establish a weapons cache point." Once again, you did not know what you were going to do there, but you suspect then, but now you're saying that de Kock told you that you must establish it. MR BRITS It's as I have testified, Chairperson, that is how I can recall it. MR JONKER And furthermore, you gave evidence that you were at Vlakplaas on a need-to-know basis. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER You see your colleague, Mr Snyman's version is that he heard of this incident in the canteen. Now at which stage was this a need-to-know principle, if it was so secret but was talked about in the canteen? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS I only heard afterwards about this from Mr Snyman, Chairperson, and I read about the shooting in a newspaper article, approximately a month afterwards. MR JONKER What did you hear from Snyman? MR BRITS With the investigation of the Attorney-General, Snyman told me that Col Human and Mr Koekemoer had a conversation with Col de Kock in the canteen. That is what he told me, Mr Snyman, with the investigation of the Attorney-General. MR JONKER You see, Sir, because if we have regard for page 31 of bundle 1, the application of Mr Snyman, paragraph 3 he says "From discussions which had taken place in the canteen, I drew the inference that a black person had to be shot" not that he was shot already, they will shoot him in future. This was such a secret operation but everybody knew that this man had to be killed in the future. MR BRITS I did not know about it, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, who went with you to the Eastern Transvaal? MR BRITS It was only myself and Mr Koekemoer. MR JONKER And the statement that you signed this morning, when did you depose to this statement? MR BRITS In last week, Chairperson. MR JONKER If we study the un-numbered pages of Exhibit B, that would be the fourth page, the third paragraph under merits, I'll read the sentence "Along with members of the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, I drove to the Eastern Transvaal." Which members? Which members are you referring to if you only went with Mr Koekemoer? MR BRITS That must be a typing fault, Chairperson, I did not read it in detail, but I only went with Mr Koekemoer. MR JONKER Sir, you gave evidence that Capt Koekemoer was a senior member there at the East Rand Murder and Robbery, and you will certainly agree with me it was not the most difficult of tasks to manoeuvre the travelling documents. MR BRITS Probably. MR JONKER So, Sir, what would the use be to manipulate travel documents and to fit in 800 kilometres and then fill petrol from your own pocket? It doesn't make sense, it's easier to use police money. MR BRITS That is indeed why I used money from my own pocket ... at the police station he would have had to have given his registration number and the kilometres on the odometer, that is why I used money from my own pocket. MR JONKER Sir, I want to tell you, in 1988 there was no registration numbers given, only SAP numbers were given. MR BRITS Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER This was a clandestine operation that Koekemoer wanted. If I understand you correctly, it was between Koekemoer and de Kock, this clandestine operation. For what purpose did you have to use money from your own pocket for petrol? If it was so clandestine for Koekemoer, why did he not use money from his own pocket? MR BRITS Chairperson, we had access to the Secret Fund and we could use the money from there for such things, we only needed a receipt. MR JONKER There was a system in the South African Police Force, they called it the Business Expenditure Fund, and each unit had an amount of money available to it for any actions, so if this Captain was involved in these things, then he could have gone to his expense fund which was locked up in his Colonel's safe and received money from there, why would he take R50 from you? MR BRITS I don't know, Chairperson, it's possible that I had the R50 with me, because I also bought the beer. MR JONKER Now that you mention the beer, you drove 400 kilometres back from Nelspruit. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER You consumed a few beers, you were now relaxed, would you agree? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And while you are relaxed, this incident is not discussed any further, you do not ask him, "Listen here old Koekies my mate, what were we doing in Nelspruit"? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, I went to set up a DLB. MR JONKER You did not discuss this matter with each other? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, not that I can recall. MR JONKER Not that you can recall. So you possibly must have discussed it, but you cannot recall? MR BRITS At this stage I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR JONKER You see, Sir, earlier in your evidence-in-chief or under cross-examination from one of my colleagues, you testified that it was not discussed, but now you are saying you cannot recall whether you discussed it or not. MR BRITS That is so, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, the Monday morning, where did you report to Mr de Kock, at Vlakplaas or where was it? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And what did de Kock tell you then? MR BRITS I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR JONKER So you cannot deny that de Kock sent you to go to Gen Engelbrecht to go and report? MR BRITS No, I cannot deny that, Chairperson. MR JONKER So it's entirely possible that you did go to Gen Engelbrecht? MR BRITS That's possible, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, Capt Koekemoer, on what regular basis did he visit Vlakplaas? MR BRITS It was on a regular basis. There was close co-operation between the East Rand and us, Chairperson. MR JONKER What was this specific close co-operation with East Rand and Murder and Robbery? MR BRITS We used their sources, Chairperson, and they used our people. MR JONKER So, Sir, it is then possible that one of your informers or East Rand Murder and Robbery's sources was a problem for them? MR BRITS That's possible, Chairperson. MR JONKER And this cache point had to be established to take out one of East Rand's sources? MR BRITS It's possible, Chairperson. MR JONKER How often did Gen Engelbrecht visit Vlakplaas? MR BRITS In general, if we came back from deployment, so once a month, then we held a braai and he was there to talk to the people. MR JONKER Can you recall what he drank there? MR BRITS I do not recall, Chairperson. MR JONKER And Capt Koekemoer or Lieut Koekemoer, as he was at that stage, did he visit Vlakplaas regularly while Gen Engelbrecht was there? MR BRITS I said not regularly, at the end of the month. Not every end of the month, when we had a meeting, then he might be there. MR JONKER Sir, did you receive any money for acts that have been committed while you were a member of the Police Force? MR BRITS That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER What did you have to do to receive this money? MR BRITS I didn't have to do anything, Chairperson, it was after the incident had taken place, then Col de Kock or one of the other senior members would give us a few rand. MR JONKER After what incident had taken place? MR BRITS Well one specific incident was with Tiso. We had to put in false claims for a period of three or six months and after a while this was stopped. That's the only money that I can recall receiving. MR JONKER Did you at any stage, Sir, establish these DLBs and claim informer's fees for it? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR JONKER The deceased, did you know him? MR BRITS Not as far as I can recall, Chairperson, I don't believe so. I had dealings with many people, but with regard to the name, I don't believe I knew him. MR JONKER Did you know the name Strongman? MR BRITS I did not, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, why would Capt Koekemoer come and deny that he was involved in the killing of this specific person? MR BRITS I would not know, Chairperson, maybe you should ask him. MR JONKER Did you not have a problem with him at some stage? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, not yet. MR JONKER You were very good friends. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER You were such good friends that you trusted each other with everything that you did, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER You trusted each other so much that on the way back from Nelspruit, after you had consumed a few beers and everybody in the canteen knew of this man that had to be killed, you still did not discuss the matter with each other? MR BRITS It was irrelevant to me, Chairperson. MR JONKER What was irrelevant to you, to establish a DLB? MR BRITS No, my instruction was to set up a DLB and further I had nothing to do with the rest of the operation. If there was an operation. MR JONKER But Sir, you received monies for certain things that were done, you must have been interested in knowing whether, if this successful, maybe you would received a few rand. MR BRITS I did not think about it at that stage, Chairperson, so I did not discuss it. MR JONKER So if I understand you correctly, if operations were successful, you would receive money? MR BRITS Not necessarily with each and every operation, Chairperson. MR JONKER But some of them you did. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And at this specific stage you did not need money, because that is why you were not interested in the incident. MR BRITS We did not do our work for money, Chairperson, we did our work because it was our work. MR JONKER As I understand you, Mr Snyman was only the supplier of the armoury, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And Mr Snyman kept record of what happened here, he came to tell you "Listen, in the newspaper there was an article about this." MR BRITS No, you're wrong, I told him about the newspaper article. MR JONKER When you saw Koekemoer again, did you ask him what happened about that incident there in Komatipoort? MR BRITS No, it was not long thereafter when we were disbanded, so I didn't actually see him. MR JONKER Sir, you were such good social friends with Koekemoer, you visited his house along with your girlfriend. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes. And then you read this in the newspaper that the person had been killed, you were very good friends but you never asked him, "Listen, is this the DLB, the DLB there, is this where this person was shot?" MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR JONKER But why not? MR BRITS As I have said, I was not interested in it, it was not of any interest to me. MR JONKER But certainly you must have heard, or may I put it as follows. Did Karel Koekemoer never tell you that, "Listen, I shot somebody there, there at that DLB"? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR JONKER At no stage? MR BRITS Not that I can recall, Chairperson. MR JONKER Did you hear that he had killed someone? MR BRITS I read it in the newspaper, Chairperson. MR JONKER But did you hear that Mr Koekemoer shot this person? MR BRITS I know Mr Koekemoer from the East Rand Murder and Robbery unit, and I read it in the newspaper. MR JONKER Sir, did the newspaper say Capt Koekemoer shot the person? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes. And you do not ask Koekemoer about this incident afterwards? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, not that I can recall. MR JONKER But why not? MR BRITS Well it was his operation, Chairperson, it was not necessary for me to ask him what he did. MR JONKER But you were part of the operation. MR BRITS Only for the DLB, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes, Sir, just for the DLB is already a large part of the operation, because if you did not establish the DLB, then there was no operation. Or the deceased would have been killed elsewhere, so your part of the operation was half of the operation. MR BRITS It did not bother me at that stage, Chairperson. MR JONKER Did Mr de Kock at any stage tell you that this action had been successful? MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR JONKER Did you not ask him what happened of it? MR BRITS No, Chairperson, when we were done with an operation we regarded it as concluded. MR JONKER But you and your social friends, or may I state it as follows. You and your friends sat there in the canteen and discussed operations. MR BRITS Sometimes, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes. On the contrary, Mr de Kock testified that the canteen was the operational room. MR BRITS Sometimes, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes. And it was discussed that this person would be killed in the canteen, but you never heard about it again. MR BRITS I was not present when it was discussed, Chairperson. Later I heard about this from Lionel Snyman. MR JONKER Did you later hear from Lionel Snyman that ...? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. As I've already said, after the Attorney-General stared his investigation, Lionel Snyman reported it to me, or mentioned it to me. MR JONKER When did Lionel Snyman mention it to you, five or six years afterwards? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And during those five or six years time you never heard of this specific person that was killed. You work with these people every day, you drink beers with these people in the canteen and at no stage did you hear of it and all of a sudden, five years afterwards, now you hear about it. MR BRITS We were quite busy at that stage, Chairperson, many people were killed in many different areas. MR JONKER Yes, I am convinced of that, Sir. But you heard of other people who had been killed, you testified that there in the canteen you discussed things and some of your colleagues said that you were involved in this specific incident, and you were with that incident and you discussed it in the canteen. The police refer to it as "speak easy", this canteen. It would appear that this is where you planned everything, in the canteen. Was this thing never discussed in the canteen again? MR BRITS It could be, Chairperson, but not where I was present. MR JONKER Gen Engelbrecht, did he attend these operational planning sessions in the canteen? MR BRITS A few times that I can recall, Chairperson. MR JONKER How many are a few times, once, twice or a few? You cannot recall. MR BRITS We were not supposed to consume liquor before an operation or discuss the operation before, only afterwards, but I did not keep records as to when, who was there, so I do not know when Gen Engelbrecht was there. MR JONKER And Sir, after the operation had been concluded you enjoyed a few beers, if I understand you correctly. MR BRITS Yes, sometimes. MR JONKER And then you discussed the successes of the operation? MR BRITS Not necessarily always, Chairperson. MR JONKER But it is done. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER But nothing was said of this specific operation? MR BRITS It was a very small operation with regard to, very few persons were involved, it was not supposed to be general knowledge. MR JONKER But everybody knew about this in the canteen. MR BRITS I don't know. MR JONKER I put it to you, it was such a small operation, but Snyman heard about it in the canteen. MR BRITS I think if I recall correctly, Lionel Snyman told me that he was present in the canteen when Koekemoer, Human and Col de Kock had discussed it. I was not present, so I speak on hearsay, and I had said that is what Lionel told me. MR JONKER You testified that Engelbrecht was there when they planned certain actions, were you present in some of the meetings or during the planning where the General was involved? MR BRITS The General and the senior officers would plan the operation, afterwards Gen Engelbrecht would sit in while the planning was done. MR JONKER You are now talking about he may sit in with the planning, did he? MR BRITS Yes, I think once or twice, as far as I can recall. MR JONKER And when the operation was completed, was the General again involved or close by? MR BRITS Yes, maybe at a later stage he'd come and tell us, "Congratulations with the operation", etcetera. MR JONKER And if this Gen now sat in with the planning of some of the actions, who would usually report back to the General? MR BRITS It would be Col de Kock in his absence, Baker or Paul van Dyk, because they were the three senior officers. MR JONKER And did it sometimes happen that some of you were sent to Gen Engelbrecht's office? MR BRITS No, not that I can recall. It could be that Willie Nortje and some of the other members could have done it. But it is possible that Col de Kock could have sent me to go and report back to the General. MR JONKER You're an old hand, you're a Warrant Officer with a few years of service, you were one of the old men, and with the close co-operation in your unit it didn't really matter who was sent to the General? MR BRITS Yes, there was a big difference concerning who was going to go to the General. MR JONKER I'm not saying that you did not respect the ranks, but there was a more social atmosphere, if I can put it that way, maybe a better inter-personal relationship between the ranks. It was not quite the case where there's an officer sitting completely separate from the others, you worked together and you trusted each other. MR BRITS Yes, that is correct. MR JONKER So there was not that big a difference between a Warrant, or that a Warrant Officer would be too scared to talk to a General, because a General visits Vlakplaas regularly and you could have gone up to him and had a conversation with him. MR BRITS Yes, that is correct. MR JONKER So if you had a serious problem, you could certainly have gone to the General and tell him that, "Listen, I've a serious problem"? MR BRITS Yes, but I ... MR JONKER But you cannot recall how often you went to General Engelbrecht's office. MR BRITS No, I cannot. MR JONKER Is it possible that you've been there? MR BRITS Yes, it's possible. MR JONKER So if I understand Mr de Kock's evidence, is it possible that it's true? MR BRITS It is possible that he sent me, yes. MR JONKER Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JONKER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr van den Berg, from your brief encounter with client? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Just a single aspect, Mr Chairperson. The handgrenade that you described, with the assistance of the Chairperson you described it as looking like a pineapple. MR BRITS Yes, as far as I can recall. MR VAN DEN BERG An F1? MR BRITS Yes, I do not know why they mention here M57, the M57 is a smooth surface handgrenade. MR VAN DEN BERG I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van den Berg. Mr Wagener? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Thank you, Chairman. Mr Brits, from when to when were you involved in Vlakplaas, or at Vlakplaas? MR BRITS From '86 to '92, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER On the 1st of February 1992, the Vlakplaas component divided, can you remember? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson, as far as I can recall. MR WAGENER Part of it remained at Vlakplaas under the command of, I think it was a Maj Dave Baker. MR BRITS That is correct. MR WAGENER And a part of it moved to a building in Meyer's Park, under Mr de Kock's command. MR BRITS That is correct. MR WAGENER And a few months later another section went to Midrand, under the command of Paul van Dyk. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER After this division, where did you resort? MR BRITS Under Col de Kock. MR WAGENER So after the 1st of February you were not at Vlakplaas anymore? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, although we did meet there. MR WAGENER But your office from which you worked was not at Vlakplaas anymore? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER No? You agree with what I said? MR BRITS Yes, that is correct. MR WAGENER Gen Engelbrecht became the Commander for the C Group on the 1st of January 1991. MR BRITS I'm not sure about the date, but I'll accept it as such. MR WAGENER Yes, it is after Gen Nick van Rensburg was transferred to the Cape, but January '91 was the date that Gen Engelbrecht became the Commander of C Group. MR BRITS I'll accept it. MR WAGENER I see in the statement, Exhibit B, you say de Kock was the Commander of C-Section. It's technically not correct and I assume that you say that Gen Engelbrecht was the Commander of C-Section. MR BRITS I may have put it the wrong way, but Col de Kock was my Unit Commander. MR WAGENER For C10? MR BRITS Yes, that came later when they added the zero. MR WAGENER Were you involved with the Harms Commission? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER The Harms Commission proceedings was during 1990, from February of August of that year. MR BRITS That could have been so, yes. MR WAGENER On a question from Adv Hattingh, you said that at various opportunities you discussed matters with Gen Engelbrecht, can you mention these matters, when, where, how? MR BRITS I cannot recall, but we were very comfortable with each other and where we discussed operations afterwards and laughed, but in detail. MR WAGENER Can you mention on single incident, if you cannot recall the rest? Can you give us a date, a place and what you talked about? MR BRITS Let me just put it clearly, I did not talk to Gen Engelbrecht alone, it would have been in a group and I cannot recall the place or the date or the specific matter. MR WAGENER In other words, you say that you never spoke to him alone? MR BRITS No, not as far as I can recall. MR WAGENER In other words, on the question of Mr Hattingh, I understood or got the impression that it boils down to the fact that you personally discussed matters with Gen Engelbrecht. MR BRITS That is not correct, Mr Chairperson. I, for example, met Gen Engelbrecht at the tennis courts and discussed his tennis, not necessarily concerning work. MR WAGENER But the way in which the question was put by Adv Hattingh, and your answer, I got the impression and maybe I'm wrong, that you and Gen Engelbrecht had various discussions about work matters and I assumed it was on a one on one basis, is that correct? MR BRITS No. MR WAGENER If there was one such matter you would have recalled it? MR BRITS Yes, I believe so. MR WAGENER And you've already testified that you cannot recall if this specific matter was discussed with him? MR BRITS Yes, I did testify about that. MR WAGENER So it's then unlikely that such a discussion could have taken place. MR BRITS It's likely and unlikely, Mr Chairperson. It is possible that I could have discussed it with him. MR WAGENER No, I hear what you say about "possible", but I also heard now that you said you would have recalled it, now my question is, can I accept that it most probably didn't happen that you discussed it with him? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BRITS Yes, it could have been so, it's possible. MR WAGENER When you went to the Eastern Transvaal with Mr Koekemoer, did you know what the whole operation entailed? MR BRITS I knew that I had to go and create a DLB. MR WAGENER Nothing else? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER You saw what you said in Exhibit B, the one that you signed this morning and confirmed under oath. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER And you will still recall that I personally administered the oath. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER If you look at that, the second-last page under the heading "Merits", there it says that you were aware that East Rand Murder and Robbery would launch an action against a person from the ANC. MR BRITS Yes, that is according to my statement. MR WAGENER Is it correct or not? MR BRITS This statement was signed by myself this morning and it was made with the assistance of my legal representative during this week. At the stage when I created the DLB, the first section is wrong. MR WAGENER So the fact that East Rand Murder and Robbery was going to act against a member of the ANC, where does that fit in? MR BRITS I only found that out at a later stage. MR WAGENER When was this? MR BRITS That was after the Attorney-General's investigations. MR WAGENER Where did you find this out? MR BRITS From Lionel Snyman. MR WAGENER Just for interest sake, is it not strange that the Murder and Robbery unit must act against a member of the ANC? MR BRITS At that stage Security and Murder and Robbery worked together. MR WAGENER Are you saying that during 1991, Murder and Robbery and Security acted against the ANC? MR BRITS If there was an ANC member that was killed and it was a Murder and Robbery person who was involved in the investigation of the murder, then the Murder and Robbery would have done it. That is why I'm saying, in that sense we co-operated. MR WAGENER I understand what you're saying, but after an action, if there's an investigation that followed and where somebody was killed, then Murder and Robbery would investigate it. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER But is said here is wrong. MR BRITS We worked closely with Murder and Robbery. As I already testified, they made use of our people to go and look for suspects, so we did work closely together, yes. That is what I meant. MR WAGENER Your tasks and you, this is now the old Vlakplaas members, that is now in March 1991, what did this entail? This is now a year after the unbanning of the ANC. MR BRITS Then we were based more on organised crime. MR WAGENER So then my question would be, is it not strange that Murder and Robbery had to act against the ANC? What would that mean? MR BRITS I wouldn't know, I cannot answer. MR WAGENER You testified earlier on this afternoon that - or maybe I should ask this question first. In the sub-division of Vlakplaas, that's in 1990, so the year before this operation you were divided into sections or sub-components. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER In which component did you fall? MR BRITS I was in Col de Kock's component. MR WAGENER Up and including January 1991, when Engelbrecht became the Commander of C-Group, did you have any personal contact with him? This is now Gen Engelbrecht? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, I did know about him. It was well known that he was a very good investigator and everybody knew about him, but I did not have direct contact with him. MR WAGENER You heard what Mr de Kock testified about earlier today, that on a date, we're not quite sure about the date and we accept that it was shortly before the 5th of March 1991, and he sent you to Gen Engelbrecht to go and get certain instructions. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER If such a thing would have happened, would you recall it? MR BRITS Yes. MR WAGENER Do you recall it? MR BRITS No, I don't. MR WAGENER And the same with the report-back - I think I've already asked this question, but for completion's sake, his evidence is that you would have reported back to Gen Engelbrecht concerning the operation, can you recall that? MR BRITS As I've already said, it's possible, but as far as I can recall I reported back to Col de Kock. MR WAGENER Then Mr Brits, we know that the deceased was killed on the 5th of March 1991, it was on a Tuesday. MR BRITS It's possible, yes. MR WAGENER And you said you and Mr Koekemoer went to the Lowveld on a Sunday. MR BRITS Yes, that is as far as I can recall. MR WAGENER Do you know if it was the Sunday immediately before the incident, or don't you know? MR BRITS No, I don't know. MR WAGENER What is your recollection? MR BRITS My recollection was that it was about a week or two weeks later. That is what I can recall. I'm not quite sure, but I cannot testify about the date. MR WAGENER So it doesn't help if we look at Mr Koekemoer's movements on Sunday the 3rd of March, or any specific Sunday? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot assist. MR WAGENER Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Was there a bar open on a Sunday, in Nelspruit? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, I knew the people at Malelane who owned the hotel and we could buy beer from them. CHAIRPERSON A shebeen-like place? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL It helps to have contacts on the road, Chairperson. Mr Brits, just generally, the information that Bambo was an ANC person, where did that come from? MR BRITS I do not know, I never knew about that. MS PATEL So what we see in your supplementary affidavit to us today, that is the information that you would have heard from Mr Snyman at the time that the A-G's office was investigating this matter? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MS PATEL Okay. And you never discussed the incident with Mr Snyman, except to get the weapons from him? MR BRITS That is correct, yes, and afterwards when I saw in the newspaper about the shooting, we just communicated about it. That was after I saw the newspaper. I called him and I told him somebody was shot in the Eastern Transvaal, but he didn't know what happened there. MS PATEL Right. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Brits, did you have contact after the incident with Mr Koekemoer? MR BRITS Yes. ADV BOSMAN How often and how long afterwards? MR BRITS It's difficult to say, it was a very long time ago, but I did see him a few times afterwards, I also met him in Pretoria. ADV BOSMAN And you never discussed this whole incident again? MR BRITS No. ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you. Your association and friendship with Mr Koekemoer, you say that continued even after the Vlakplaas unit had been disbanded? MR BRITS Yes, if I went to the East Rand and he was at home, I would go and greet him, just to say hello. ADV SANDI I understood you to say that at that stage you continued trusting each other. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. ADV SANDI You still didn't ask him about this dead letter box he had to set up? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI I also understood you to say that you do not recall any particular report which you had to give to Mr Engelbrecht. MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Now I have a problem, I'll tell you where my problem is. To start with, you've told us about so many possibilities that I've stopped counting, I have stopped counting now how many possibilities you've testified to here. Now when you say it's possible that you did go to Mr Engelbrecht to give a report ....(intervention) MR BRITS That is possible. ADV SANDI Ja, but it you were not in the habit of communicating with people like Generals, because as you've said you were a footsoldier, you didn't easily go and talk to those people on a person to person basis. MR BRITS That's correct. ADV SANDI Yes, but wouldn't it be easy for you to recall discussing this particular incident with Mr Engelbrecht? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, it was not a serious matter. Certain things were serious to me, but this wasn't. If I reported back to Col de Kock and he told me I had to report to Gen Engelbrecht, then I would have done it, but I wouldn't necessarily have remembered it. ...(transcriber's interpretation) ADV SANDI Do you still maintain that it's possible that you did go to Mr Engelbrecht to give a report to him? MR BRITS It's possible, yes. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Sandi. Any re-examination, Mr Cornelius? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Mindful of the time, only two questions, thank you Mr Chair. You did not act keeping in mind that you wanted a bonus or some money from it? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And medals were given and bonuses were given in the past, and people have testified about this. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS And if I recall the testimony of Mr de Kock, there was this understanding that no alcohol was used before an operation, is that right? MR BRITS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS ADV BOSMAN Chairperson, may I be allowed just to put one more question to the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Certainly, Advocate Bosman. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Did you ever in other matters, work professionally with Mr Koekemoer, except for this incident? MR BRITS Yes, Mr Chairperson, we worked closely together at scenes in the East Rand, where he was the investigative officer. ADV BOSMAN So you would say various incidents? MR BRITS I would not say, I cannot specifically say three or four or five, but we did work closely together. ADV BOSMAN Were these incidents all aboveboard incidents? MR BRITS No, it was only where he worked as an investigative officer and we assisted him. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI With your indulgence, Mr Chairman. Mr Brits, is there any particular incident or operation which you've never discussed with Mr Engelbrecht? MR BRITS I cannot recall such a thing, no. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Brits, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I apologise to Correctional Services for just going through a minute or two after three-thirty. Could we come to an understanding that we commence at nine-thirty tomorrow? Is everybody comfortable with that? We'll adjourn until tomorrow, nine-thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS