amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-23 PRETORIA 7 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54422&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200823pt.htm CHAIRPERSON: Today it's Wednesday 23rd August 2000. We are proceeding with the applications of Mr de Kock and two others. Mr Koekemoer, you are still under your previous oath, do you understand that? JOHANNES PETRUS KOEKEMOER (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Jonker, last night you had indicated that you had completed your cross-examination but let's re-establish that? MR JONKER I indeed finished my cross-examination last night, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Good morning, Chairperson. On behalf of my clients I have no questions for this witness, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there's just one aspect that I wanted clarity on. Mr Koekemoer, the release of Mr Bambo from the prison, is it Mr Grobler who went and fetched him from the prison for you, accompanied by one other member who in fact signed the requisition form? MR KOEKEMOER I don't know who exactly went to fetch Mr Bambo. The person who signed for him, it's not clear on the form, but I do believe it was one of W/O Grobler's people and I do not know whether W/O Grobler was with. MS PATEL And their main interest in Mr Bambo was as a result of your request to them, to collect the man? MR KOEKEMOER Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay, now if I can just refer you to page 42 of bundle 2, it's the statement by the brother of Mr Bambo. CHAIRPERSON Where do we find that? MS PATEL Bundle 2, Honourable Chairperson, page 42. It appears that Mr Nakido Nhassopa who is the brother to the deceased had gone to the prison looking for his brother, obviously to visit him, and he was there - if one turns to paragraph 4 on page 42, the latter end of it. He says the prison warder had in fact told him that he had a secret to tell him, that there's a secret to tell Mr Nhassopa and that he shouldn't talk about it and he then informed him that they were going to kill his brother and that he didn't know why. Do you have an opinion or can you comment on how this information would have been known prior to Mr Bambo in fact being killed? MR KOEKEMOER No Chairperson. MS PATEL It's strange, you would concede, it's strange that somebody would know beforehand that Mr Bambo is going to be killed? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. Just one question, Mr Koekemoer. During this time when this person was killed, was the whole issue of arms that came into the country quite a big issue? Is that not so? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN And if a police official found a place where weapons were hidden it would be a feather in his cap to put it as such? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN And in the light thereof I do not understand why it took you almost five days to do something about the information. I know that you have already said in your evidence that you heard this the Friday and that you wanted to complete other things and that Monday was a very busy day for you but certainly you could have changed your priorities, could you not? MR KOEKEMOER Chairperson, I stand by my previous explanation. ADV BOSMAN But I'm asking if you could not have moved your priorities? MR KOEKEMOER I fitted it in as soon as I could. ADV BOSMAN And may I then ask you as follows, was it not possible to convey the information to a colleague and say "I have my hands full, can you follow this up?" MR KOEKEMOER If I can recall correctly, all the persons were tasked with certain other tasks and I was the only one who could have done this. ADV BOSMAN So the thing to do would have - I do not know what the correct name was but wouldn't it have been better to contact the people who dealt with weapons? MR KOEKEMOER If I recall correctly during that time the armed units had just started functioning but I speak under correction. ADV BOSMAN And would it not deal with them and was that the reason why you did not inform them because they had just started off? MR KOEKEMOER No, I decided to do it myself. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI I will not ask any further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON Just one clarification, I think you did clear it up, Mr Koekemoer but it's worrying me that when you were informed that Mr Bambo wanted to point out handguns which he had hidden somewhere, how long was Bambo in custody? MR KOEKEMOER Chairperson, I do not know how long he was already in detention. CHAIRPERSON Were you informed for instance that when he had escaped and incarcerated subsequently for his escape, where he had escaped to? MR KOEKEMOER No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Under cross-examination you were told that he was a Mozambican citizen did he know when you dealt with him that he was a Mozambican citizen? MR KOEKEMOER He could speak Shangaan, I did not know he was a Mozambican citizen. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask him? MR KOEKEMOER No I did not ask him, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you were told that there was somebody who like Bambo at this stage, I take it you did not know him until you met him? MR KOEKEMOER Correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you told that this person spoke of where the arms were? MR KOEKEMOER Will you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON That prior to you speaking to Mr Bambo, were you told personally where he might have hidden these handguns? MR KOEKEMOER He did not give me a specific place but he just said that it was close to Kwanyamazaan, Nelspruit area. CHAIRPERSON I mean when you were first given the information without - that is before you spoke to him, that is Bambo, before you spoke to him. Whoever said we think you must investigate this case, did he say where this person said the handguns could be? MR KOEKEMOER No, he did not Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What were you told? That is without speaking to Bambo, what were you told about him? MR KOEKEMOER That this person wanted to go and point out weapons and that he possibly was a member of a smuggling gang. CHAIRPERSON You see why I'm asking you this, because it would appear from the papers before us that Grimbeek was the person who was investigating all the alleged crimes which Bambo had committed and he says he knew nothing about this? Because to me that appears strange, here's a man who is really a person who is investigating all these crimes and then he knows nothing and somebody else just says here's a man who wants to point out handguns which he has hidden. Doesn't that appear strange to you? MR KOEKEMOER Chairperson, if there was information coming in and it was not relevant to the investigating officer's cases that he was handling or additional things come in, it would be transferred to me. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't it for instance work in this fashion that when he is questioned by Grimbeek and he speaks of incidents or crimes outside Grimbeek's jurisdiction, he would therefore appear under the branch of the police? Wouldn't it appear like that for instance if murder and robbery unit investigate a murder and it appears this is an MK member who has been infiltrated into the country, wouldn't murder and robbery say Security Branch, you're dealing with the security of the State in the proper sense that the Government shouldn't be overthrown, here's the man you should be dealing with, it's not a question of just pure murder? Wouldn't it operate in that fashion? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. The Security Branch would have been informed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koekemoer. Mr ...(intervention) MS PATEL My apologies, Honourable Chairperson, I anticipate you're going to re-examination with Mr van den Berg. There's just one specific question that I omitted to ask Mr Koekemoer and I beg leave to? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do before Mr van den Berg re-examines. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Koekemoer, did you at any stage liaise with General Engelbrecht about this incident? MR KOEKEMOER No, not at all Chairperson. MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr van den Berg? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank Mr Chairperson, just one or two aspects. Mr Koekemoer, did you know or do know who Captain Andrew Liesk is? MR KOEKEMOER I met him sometime back. He was a member of Krugersdorp Murder and Robbery. MR VAN DEN BERG And in the year 1996 did you know what he was involved with? MR KOEKEMOER No, not at all, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG As I have it Captain Liesk was part of the D'Oliveira investigative team and that he investigated the allegations against Mr de Kock. Do you know about that? MR KOEKEMOER That could be. MR VAN DEN BERG If you study the affidavit of Mr Gunter, Volume 2, Chairperson, pages 14 and 15. It is the unsigned affidavit, you will see that the person who took the oath there was Captain Andrew Gordon Liesk. Do you see that? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And if you look further you will see that the statement was taken on the 22nd June 1996, do you see that? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then the other aspect, Mr Jonker questioned you comprehensively about the form that you had to complete when an identification or a confession was made. Do you recall that cross-examination? MR KOEKEMOER Yes I do. MR VAN DEN BERG Is it not so that that form has to be completed when a crime is investigated specifically when the accused person is before you and he makes an admission or wants to make an admission? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, yes. MR VAN DEN BERG And did you use that form from time to time? MR KOEKEMOER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Was it under the same circumstances as you have testified here or was that under other circumstances? MR KOEKEMOER It was under other circumstances. MR VAN DEN BERG Which circumstances? MR KOEKEMOER It was where another unit or investigative official approached me to take a person out for purposes of pointing out a scene on a specific case. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koekemoer, that concludes your evidence. You are excused. MR KOEKEMOER Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg, are you calling anybody or leading any further evidence? MR VAN DEN BERG No Mr Chairperson, we were here to safeguard Mr Koekemoer's interests as a subpoenaed person before this Committee. We don't have any evidence to present in respect of these amnesty applications. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.