amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-23 PRETORIA 7 MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT AM4032/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54423&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200823pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is next? Mr Hurwitz? MR HURWITZ Yes, I believe it's Mr Olifant who is next. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is he present? MR HURWITZ Yes. CHAIRPERSON In which language is Mr Olifant going to testify, Mr Hurwitz? MR HURWITZ English, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Olifant, could you again for the purposes of the record give us your full names? MANUEL ANTONIO OLIFANT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ Mr Olifant, you're currently a Sergeant in the South African Police Services, Diamond and Gold Branch, Johannesburg Central? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Can you sketch briefly for the Committee your background and how you were recruited to the South African Police Services? MR OLIFANT June 1980s - 1970's, I was recruited from inside the country but taken to former Vlakplaas where I was taken to South West Africa and thereon I spent about plus minus two and a half years working of a member of Koevoet and at a later stage I was transferred from South West Africa to Soweto where I worked under Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius. MR HURWITZ I see. Now are you Mozambican by birth? MR OLIFANT Well I will say that yes I'm Mozambican by birth but by naturalisation I'm South African. MR HURWITZ And what is your home language, your mother tongue? MR OLIFANT My mother tongue is Portuguese. MR HURWITZ Now you were approached at some stage by investigators of the Attorney General's offices for a statement, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I see. Now, according to your knowledge, were there more than one investigators who took statements from you? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I see. Now there is a statement in the bundle, bundle 2, a statement by yourself, that's pages 11 to 13 of bundle 2. Now this statement before us is in Afrikaans. What is your reading knowledge and understanding of Afrikaans? MR OLIFANT Very poor. MR HURWITZ I see. Do you recall having a consultation, an interview with Detective Sergeant Andre Louis Groenewald? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Okay, now can you tell the Committee what transpired during the consultation? MR OLIFANT During this particular consultation we had a problem of language. The Sergeant could not write English and I had told him that look, I've got a problem with Afrikaans, that I could not really go on with the Afrikaans, the best - well, let's write English. He said well it's not a problem, we can go on with Afrikaans, it's not a problem because at that stage I will try to explain to you what I was writing about. MR HURWITZ Now as a result of the consultation were you presented with a statement to sign? MR OLIFANT No, no I wasn't at that stage. MR HURWITZ Do you recall having signed a statement given to you by Detective Sergeant Groenewald? MR OLIFANT Well the written one by hand, I may have signed it but I'm not sure whether I have signed it or not but I do have an idea that I might have signed it. MR HURWITZ Now there's another statement which was handed in on Monday as Exhibit A. This was a statement comprising approximately 34 pages. Do you have it before you? MR OLIFANT Yes I do have it, Mr Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Do you recall having an interview with Captain Liesk? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ And can you explain to the Committee what happened during the consultation? MR OLIFANT Mr Liesk, he approached me and he actually asked me about various incidents, whether I knew about those, will I recall by then because some of the incidents were correct, some of the incidents were not correct. So he asked me whether I knew about those allegations or not. Those which I knew ...(indistinct) no, I know about these allegations. Those I did not know, I said no these were all not known to me. MR HURWITZ Just as a bit of a background, you have personally applied for certain - you have submitted certain amnesty applications, is that correct? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ So that was also one of the reasons why Liesk consulted with you? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I see. Now the statements largely are ad idem in certain respects but in certain critical respects they are different. Paragraph 9 on page 12 of bundle 2 says as follows - if you don't understand perhaps you could tell me or well, I'll try and interpret it roughly to you. "Capt Pretorius contacted me and told me that we've got a lot of problems because Strongman was arrested and had escaped and that I have to go and look for him and kill him. He would get everybody in trouble if he talked about the operations that he was involved in." I just want to read you page 6 of Exhibit A, the second last paragraph: "I was approached by Pretorius and requested to keep an ear out for him. I was to pass the information on to them. Pretorius told me that if he was caught he would have to be killed as he would talk like others were busy doing." So whereas in the case of the Afrikaans paragraph there was an instruction to you to murder him and in this English paragraph there was an instruction that he would have to be killed. Can you comment on what the actual conversation was between yourself, Pretorius and Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Well, Mr Pretorius at no stage instructed me to kill Strongman. The only thing is this. A certain day when Mr Pretorius came from the office he called me to his office asking me whether I knew anything about Strongman. I said well, I know nothing about Strongman. He asked me whether I had seen the newspaper of that particular day when he called me. I said yes, well I have heard on that people that know he is on the run. He said that to me, okay fine. Well it is now a problem because Strongman is on the run and I believe that he has been involved in various armed robberies and things like that and that would have been a danger to people who have been ...(indistinct) with him because since he's now a criminal and he may end up in jail and you know, the subject maybe to be face a ...(indistinct), something like that and before that he may be talking like others who are these talking. MR HURWITZ I see. And your conversation with Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Coetzee actually requested me whether I could get hold of Strongman in order to talk to Strongman so that Strongman should come back to work because Strongman is was also, I mean he was involved in armed robbery and things like that which wasn't good for a former member of Intelligence being in such a disarray. So if I could get hold of him I should try to talk to him in order to come back, you know and sort out the difference which prevailed which made him actually sort of like leaving the force and go commit armed robberies. MR HURWITZ I see. Can you describe to the Committee your relationship with Strongman, why you were approached? MR OLIFANT Well at that particular moment or are you talking about the particular moment or do you ...(intervention) MR HURWITZ No, you sketch your relationship with Strongman. What type of relationship was it? MR OLIFANT Well I'll say that he was bosom friend to me. MR HURWITZ Yes and why do you think they may have asked you to speak to him? MR OLIFANT Well they knew for a fact that all these years ever since they knew me and Strongman, what happened is this, I will talk in particular about Mr Coetzee. Strongman and myself when we were in South West Africa we actually worked under Mr Coetzee as a second commander in our unit. Now Mr Coetzee, you know, he sort of like he really looked after us since he knew that we were from actually headquarters. So when again we came to his section, his unit in Soweto, he also looked after us and we had been working for many years. In that aspect, you know, Mr Coetzee and most them believed that me and Strongman were brothers. MR HURWITZ Now in Mr Coetzee's statement to the Committee, he denies ever having had such a conversation with you. Let me just get the exact paragraph. Bundle 3, page 9, paragraph 3.2, he denies ever having had such a conversation with you which you mentioned. Can you comment on any reason why this might be the case? MR OLIFANT Well first of all there's been long time and secondly, we can see the situation where we are today. I mean he can deny the fact that he never spoke anything to me but I know for a fact that he spoke something to me. MR HURWITZ What was the relationship between Coetzee and Strongman like at the time that he left the Security Services as an informer? MR OLIFANT I should think that Strongman he might have taken very harsh, you know, because Mr Coetzee, one thing for sure, he was a rigid commander I will say, you know, he wanted these things to really work on its path. Now Strongman, he was a jolly person who didn't worry about anything. I will say instead that at some stage he always wanted to be a free man, you know, and Mr Coetzee would really, you know, keep his order always on the track so somewhere, somehow, he might have not liked him although he has been working over a decade with Mr Coetzee, but Mr Coetzee never changed him to whatever he was. MR HURWITZ Okay, so in summary how would you describe the relationship in a few words. MR OLIFANT Very, very, very good. Very good. MR HURWITZ With Strongman? MR OLIFANT With Strongman. MR HURWITZ I see. Now Mr Pretorius also denies having had such a conversation with you. Can you comment on that? MR OLIFANT Well if he denies I'll say the same thing what I say about Mr Coetzee because it's a difficult situation. MR HURWITZ No but what possible reason could he have to deny it? MR OLIFANT Well it has been a long time, he could not recollect it but I know for a fact that he spoke something about it, about myself. I won't have just went and look for the words in order to incriminate him, I don't see a reason why I should incriminate him because I don't have anything against him at the end of the day. MR HURWITZ I see. Now how did it come about that either Groenewald or Liesk wanted this information from you or did you volunteer it? MR OLIFANT No, no. It has been a tough time those days, I'll say, because first of all when they managed to destroy our unit which was led by Mr Pretorius then Mr Liesk he saw a very big gap that no, now we'll go for us and he did so. MR HURWITZ So you told him everything you knew about the ...(intervention) MR HURWITZ Well I had to tell them, I had no choice otherwise Mr Liesk was really trapping me to put him in jail. They had already suspended Mr Pretorius who was my commanding officer and they had dismantled the whole unit, they had reshuffled everything so I found myself to be the only person at the unit and I was even temporarily transferred to Diamond and Gold unnecessarily. I mean everything was arranged by Brigadier Thompson. MR HURWITZ I see, so you gave your full co-operation? MR OLIFANT I gave my full co-operation. MR HURWITZ And you were not suspended? MR OLIFANT I wasn't suspended for it, no. MR HURWITZ The relationship between Pretorius and Strongman? MR OLIFANT Well it was a normal relationship. MR HURWITZ Nothing unusual? MR OLIFANT Nothing unusual. MR HURWITZ So just for the sake of clarity, there was never an instruction given to you by either Pretorius or Coetzee to eliminate Strongman? MR OLIFANT No. MR HURWITZ Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HURWITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hurwitz. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Olifant, I'm going to refer you to certain incidents which you speak about in the various statements which form part of Exhibit A. I'm not going to go into the details of each incident, I would merely like you to identify the incident to tell us whether you and Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius or either of them were involved with you in that particular incident and also to confirm the dates on which those incidents occurred. Do you understand what I'm getting at? MR OLIFANT I do understand, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Alright, now can I refer you to Exhibit A, the very first statement and in paragraph 2 thereof you say "In 1986 our sources had infiltrated the students at Vista University, Seluwane, Soweto. There was a councillor who was giving the students problems, there were students working hand in hand with the ANC. At this stage my commander was Coetzee." Is that Willem Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Second commander, Pretorius. Mr Pretorius was also here today? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And the above commanding officer was De Jager? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then in the next paragraph you say "Our source, Big Boy, took Manuel, Peter, Selemolela and Oscar and also Adrian." Now that Adrian, is that Adrian Bambo? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH: "...to the Chancellor's house" and you continue in paragraph: "to the Chancellor's house where Big Boy threw a handgrenade into the yard." MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now as Mr Coetzee present when this happened? MR OLIFANT No he wasn't present. MR HATTINGH But did he give you the instructions to carry out the operation? MR OLIFANT He gave the instruction to ...(indistinct) MR HATTINGH And was Mr Pretorius aware of this as well? MR OLIFANT He was aware of this. MR HATTINGH Have you asked for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Yes Chairperson, I did ask for amnesty, yes. MR HATTINGH And has your application been heard yet? MR OLIFANT Not on this particular matter. MR HATTINGH Not on that particular one? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether either or both of Messrs Pretorius and Coetzee applied for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Well I wouldn't know. MR HATTINGH Alright, let's leave it at that. Then we come to another incident, on the same page, the last paragraph, you say, the second one: "We had people who would go and visit the ANC in exile. These people were our sources. In this case Coetzee assigned two explosives experts from headquarters. This was in 1987. The instruction from the ANC to our sources was to have them deal with the Dukata of Natal. Coetzee, De Jager, Pretorius, Strongman, Adriano ..." And that's Bambo again? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH: "...and myself went into the Mtsimshlope Hostel where we found some people sleeping in a kombi. We put a limpet mine on the kombi and left. We went to other hostels, that was Dube Hostel where we put a limpet mine on a kombi. Strongman did the actual placing of the limpets. I wish to state that I think the date was 1986, during June. At both places that night people were injured during the explosions." Did you apply for amnesty in respect of that incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Has that matter been heard? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And at that hearing did Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius also apply for amnesty? MR OLIFANT They never applied for amnesty. MR HATTINGH Do you confirm that they gave the instructions which you carried out in respect of this particular incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you. Then we come to the third one. "Another incident also took place during 1986. Coetzee and Pretorius summoned military intelligence to come to Johannesburg. This was Norval and his senior, a Lieutenant Colonel, another white guy and two blacks. I have forgotten their names. We met that night at the house at Vlakfontein Farm. We went to the amphitheatre at Jabulani in Soweto where this unit from Pretoria planted limpet mines. Also there was De Jager, Van Wyngaard, Gustav, myself, Adriano." Adriano was Bambo again? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH: "There was a very big explosion in the early hours of the morning. This explosion was just before June 16 as there was to be a large rally." MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you apply for amnesty in respect of that incident? MR OLIFANT Yes I did, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And has that matter been heard yet? MR OLIFANT If recollect, I don't think it has been heard yet. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius applied for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Well I don't know whether they have applied for amnesty for this particular matter or not. MR HATTINGH But you confirm that you acted under their instructions? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And so did Adriano Bambo? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The fourth one, appears in the next paragraph, another incident of which the same people excluding Gustav and Van Wyngaard were there. We went to Jabavu, White City, we had with us 25 litres of diesel and igniting card. We poured diesel into the Ipeleng offices and set it alight with the card. Norval of M1 lit the card but we did not stay to see what happened." Did you act under the instructions of Coetzee and Pretorius in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you apply for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Yes I did, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Has it been dealt with here by the Amnesty Committee? MR OLIFANT Not yet. MR HATTINGH Not yet. I assume you don't know whether Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius applied for this one? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR HATTINGH The next one that I would like you to deal with, it appears on page 4 of Exhibit A. You say in the second paragraph there "In 1986 myself, Strongman and Adriano Bambo..." is that correct? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Every time we come across the name Strongman or Adriano, that's Mr Bambo. MR OLIFANT That's Mr Bambo. MR HATTINGH Okay. "In 1986 myself, Strongman, Coetzee and Chris Hlatswayo had to go and check a bus" and then there seems to be some typing errors. I assume it must be: "check a house in Dalridge, Mbaba in Swaziland." MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH: "We went through the border. Coetzee used the name William Smit and Pretorius used the name Anton Prinsloo. Chris showed us a place where the ANC held its meetings. We returned the same night. This was during May/June 1986. After returning we had made arrangements with the Vlakplaas people and they went in with arrangements ..." Sorry: "...they went in with Chris de Jager, Coetzee and Pretorius. Coetzee had a Makarov and after killing the people they all returned across the border." Was Strongman aware of this operation? MR OLIFANT Well he wasn't in this operation. He never went to Swaziland when they went into this operation, for this operation. MR HATTINGH No, I accept that but he went with you on a reconnaissance? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And he knew what the purpose of that reconnaissance operation was for. MR OLIFANT Well at the end of the day when he read from a newspaper he concluded that he'd know what will have taken place and so on. MR HATTINGH Right and he knew that Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius that they were both involved? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes. Would you please turn to page - it's not numbered, but it's headed - should be 7, I think "Mobkeki Case", page just before page 8. Have you got it Mr Olifant? CHAIRPERSON It would be immediately after the page 6 which you have been read to by Mr Hurwitz. MR HATTINGH Yes that is correct, Mr Chairperson. Do you have it in front of your Mr Olifant? MR OLIFANT Yes I do Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well, the first paragraph or paragraph 3 there reads as follows "During 1986 I was attached to the Intelligence Unit in Soweto working under the command of Captain Willem Coetzee as the first commander and Lieutenant Anthony Pretorius as the second commander." Then in paragraph 6 you say: "One day in the middle of the year Capt Coetzee elected Lazarus Selemolela, Peter Lengeni, myself, Adriano Bambo and Oscar or Mandla, I cannot remember who was present in between them. Mandla's surname is Jabalala and I cannot remember Oscar's surname. Capt Coetzee elected us to back up big boy to attack and bomb the Professor's house in Rockville." Do you recall that incident? MR OLIFANT Yes I do recall. MR HATTINGH Was the attack actually carried out? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you report back - or rather let me first ask you, was Mr Coetzee present during the attack? MR OLIFANT No he was not. MR HATTINGH And Mr Pretorius? MR OLIFANT No he wasn't. MR HATTINGH Did you report back to them? MR OLIFANT We only report back to Mr Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Yes. Have you applied for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Yes I did apply. MR HATTINGH Has it been dealt with yet? MR OLIFANT Not yet Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And once again I assume you don't know whether they've applied for amnesty? MR OLIFANT No I don't know, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The next page "Ipeleng Sentrum Soweto" You start off in paragraph 10 to say - I'm going to translate to the best of my ability: "During June 1986 whilst I was attached to the Criminal Intelligence Unit in Soweto and under the command of Lt. Coetzee and Lt. Pretorius we set alight the Ipeleng Community Centre in Jabuvu." Is that the same incident that we've already dealt with previously or is this another incident? MR OLIFANT No, the same incident which we've dealt with, yes. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon? MR OLIFANT It is the same incident. MR HATTINGH Same incident, very well. In paragraph 12 you mention that you got together at the farm Vlakplaas. Is that a typing error? Should it be the farm Vlakfontein because previously in your statements you refer to a farm by the name of Vlakfontein. MR OLIFANT Yes it is an error, it's Vlakfontein. MR HATTINGH Is it Vlakfontein? Where was this farm Mr Olifant? MR OLIFANT Towards Roodepoort. MR HATTINGH Roodepoort? MR OLIFANT That's correct Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was that a sort of a safe house for the Security Police? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Where you operated from? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH On page 25 under the heading "Swaziland" in paragraph 92 you say "In about October or November 1986 then Lt. Coetzee instructed me and my late brother Adriaan Bambo to put person Christo in my State vehicle, a Toyota Corolla 1.6 and go to Swaziland. Chris was a suspect ANC member who we arrested and Coetzee used to force him to give information. I was never present when it happened." Do you recall this incident? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, if I'm not mistaken this is the same incident which you spoke about, the Swaziland incident. MR HATTINGH This is the attack on the late Mr Pantso, is that correct? A matter where Mr de Kock also applied for? MR OLIFANT Yes that's the same incident. MR HATTINGH And you were acting under the instructions or on the instructions of Mr Coetzee. MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And Mr Pretorius, was he also aware of this? MR OLIFANT No, he wasn't there. MR HATTINGH He wasn't there? MR OLIFANT He wasn't. MR HATTINGH And somebody, at least one person was killed in Swaziland as a result of this operation, is that correct? MR OLIFANT Well I learned later that ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH You learned later, yes. Yes. Now these were the only incidents that you deal with in your lengthy statement or statements where I could pick up the name of Mr Bambo. Was he also involved in other operations with you apart from these that I've just dealt with now? MR OLIFANT Yes, Mr Chairperson. He was also involved in the guarding Nokatulas. MR HATTINGH In? MR OLIFANT Nokatula Simelane. MR HATTINGH Simelane is Nokatula Simelane? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR HATTINGH What happened in that particular incident? MR OLIFANT Well I know for a fact that he was looking after her for some time. MR HATTINGH Who was looking after her? MR OLIFANT Mr Bambo. MR HATTINGH And when you say he was looking after her what do you mean by that? MR OLIFANT He was looking after her while she was detained somewhere North West Province. Presently North West actually. MR HATTINGH Was she abducted from some place? MR OLIFANT Well I understand that she was abducted from Johannesburg and from Johannesburg she was taken to some safe houses somewhere in ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Somewhere in the Northern Province? MR OLIFANT Yes. MR HATTINGH Yes and do you know what eventually happened to her? MR OLIFANT Well if we may go according to who made these reports and things like that she was abducted and thereon she was sort of like - she disappeared. MR HATTINGH She disappeared? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were you involved in that operation? MR OLIFANT No, I wasn't involved in this Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How is it that you know about it? MR OLIFANT Well we all shared ideas. MR HATTINGH So Mr Bambo told you about it? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And do you know under whose instructions he carried out or under whose instructions he acted in this particular matter? MR OLIFANT Under Mr Coetzee, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Under Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now all these incidents that I've dealt with appeared to have occurred after 1985, perhaps with one of them in 1985 but let me explain to you why I'm referring to that date. This was after Mr Bambo had come out of prison in respect of the matter where he was sentenced to imprisonment, is that correct? Mr Bambo served a term of imprisonment and I think he was sentenced during 1984 if my memory serves me correct. Are you aware of that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And these incidents that you and I have now dealt with, they all occurred after he'd come out of prison? MR OLIFANT In 1986, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes. LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE Mr Chairperson, sorry to interrupt here but is Mr Hattingh going to present evidence on this statement he put to the witness that all the incidents occurred after 1985? ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Your mike is not on but in any event he has just led it through Mr Olifant and it's documented as Exhibit A. LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE I was put to the witness that all the incidents took place after 1985. Now all I would like to now from Mr Hattingh is he going to lead evidence on that because my instructions are the contrary? CHAIRPERSON No, no, you look at the document before you respond to that. Look at Exhibit A. All that has been asked this far is that it's 1986/87. It's clear from the document. MR HATTINGH ...(audible) confirmed the dates which appears in the statement, Mr Chairperson and that's why I say these incidents go according to his statement and to his evidence after 1985. LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE Sorry to interrupt, Chairperson, but where in Exhibit A does it state that the Simelane incident took place after 1985? MR HATTINGH That one doesn't appear in his statement. CHAIRPERSON No, not definitely. MR HATTINGH So perhaps I should ask him that. Do you know when the Simelane incident occurred Mr Olifant? MR OLIFANT Plus minus it was 1982. MR HATTINGH 1982, so that one was before he went to prison? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR HATTINGH But the ones that I've dealt with in your statement, you've given the dates there, do you confirm those dates? MR OLIFANT That would be after 1986. MR HATTINGH Now let me just deal with your evidence regarding the paragraph on page 6 of your statement. You went rather quick in your evidence and I wasn't able to take it all down and I'm not sure that I understand you correctly. I'd just like you to clarify for my understanding please? You say there "Strongman had left the force." Do you know when that was? MR OLIFANT That was late in 1989, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you say he was then allegedly involved in robberies and later arrested on the East Rand? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That is what you heard? MR OLIFANT That is what I heard, yes. MR HATTINGH Now do you know why he left the force? MR OLIFANT Precisely why he left the force, really I do not know but I know for a fact that he was unhappy. MR HATTINGH That he was what? MR OLIFANT He was unhappy. MR HATTINGH He was unhappy? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. ADV SANDI Sorry, are you able to tell us what made him unhappy, why was he unhappy there? MR OLIFANT Maybe the money, his salary was too low than his request, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Was he making requests for salary increase? MR OLIFANT Well I wouldn't really go deep into his - why he left the force because I know for a fact he was unhappy. In fact he might have approached Mr Coetzee for that matter in order to solve problems. I do not know about it. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. I would like to refer you to page 9 of bundle 3, that is the statement of Mr Coetzee. He says: "At about the end of 1989, beginning of 1990, Strongman once again committed certain irregularities and he after giving the matter some thorough consideration decided to break all ties with Strongman." So from this it would appear that Mr Coetzee decided that Strongman was no longer going to work for him. Were you aware of that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now can I come back to page 6? You continue, in the paragraph you say: "I was approached by Pretorius and requested to keep an ear out for him." Is that a correct statement? MR OLIFANT Well the concept of statements, it's plus minus ...(indistinct) you know, it's not correct, correct, as I have told the investigating officer what had transpired, what Mr Pretorius told me about. MR HATTINGH What did Mr Pretorius want you to do? Something in connection with Mr Bambo? MR OLIFANT Not do something but to know whereabouts Strongman and what is he busy doing since Strongman was on the newspaper at that particular day when he approached me. MR HATTINGH So did he ask you to find out where Strongman was and what he was about? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes. Did he tell you why he wanted that information? MR OLIFANT Well he said to me that at the office we were actually worrying him because Strongman's name was on the papers saying that a former Koevoet member and a Soweto Security Branch informer is at large and is being sought for the numerous armed robberies. MR HATTINGH Right and Mr Pretorius was worried about this? MR OLIFANT Well he approached me so he was concerned about Strongman being at large. MR HATTINGH And what was the reason for his concern, was he afraid that Mr Bambo might tell about his experiences with the Security Police? MR OLIFANT Although after he asked me about the matter he commented that he may also talk like others had talked. MR HATTINGH Yes, well that's what I wanted you to explain. He may also talk like others are talking. MR OLIFANT Who are talking. MR HATTINGH Are talking. Now what others was he referring to? MR OLIFANT Well at that particular time we had Nofomela talking, we had Dirk Coetzee talking, more people want to come forward in order to disclose all the atrocities which had ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH Precisely and he was concerned that Mr Bambo might do the same, that he might also start telling about his experiences like Mr Nofomela was doing, like Mr Coetzee was doing? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes and that's why he approached you and asked you to find out where he was and what he was about? MR OLIFANT Well I would say that that's why he approached me. MR HATTINGH Yes. Very well, then you continue "I was to pass the information onto them." That was now what you were able to find out about Mr Bambo's whereabouts and what he was busy doing? MR OLIFANT Yes, he'd know about Strongman as well. MR HATTINGH Then you say, according to the statement "Pretorius told me that if he was caught he would have to be killed as he would talk like others were busy doing." Is that a correct statement? MR OLIFANT No, it's a wrong statement, Mr Chairperson. Not he had to be killed. He may be killed because Mr Pretorius, he knew for a fact that Strongman, he had a military experience and any clash he'd have with the Police who'll resist arrest. There he really focused on that. MR HATTINGH So what was Mr Pretorius worried about, was he worried about the fact that Mr Bambo might tell about his experiences with the Security Police or was he worried that he might be killed in a clash with the Police? MR OLIFANT Well I know for a fact that he said that he was worried that if he's caught, maybe killed because he may try to resist arrest and we fight back, that is it. MR HATTINGH Did you manage to find out where Mr Bambo was? MR OLIFANT Well when Mr Coetzee sent me to sort of like talk to him in order to come back to work, you know, through the brothers and things like that, I managed to get hold of him and I tried to convince him that look, Mr Coetzee, he wants you back and you know, he says please come back to work because what you are trying to do - I mean, what you are doing presently, it's not really, you know, conducive for a member from Intelligence and things like that, the best was just to come back and you know, he would work again. MR HATTINGH And what was his reaction? MR OLIFANT He was negative towards that. MR HATTINGH He wasn't prepared to come back? MR OLIFANT No he wasn't. MR HATTINGH Did he tell you why he didn't want to come back? MR OLIFANT Well he never said, he never elaborated why he didn't want to come back. MR HATTINGH But in your own mind you were convinced at that time that Mr Bambo was involved in criminal activities, is that correct? MR OLIFANT Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And so was Mr Pretorius? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And yet they wanted him to come back and be a member of the Security Police? MR OLIFANT Well, that was their request, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That was their request? MR OLIFANT That's right. MR HATTINGH Yes, do you know why they wanted to have him back with them? MR OLIFANT Well I don't know if I'd be lying on this. You know, a member who had been involved with the, you know, so many - how certain codes work, not easily will go and maybe go and join the Security company, join or something like that, you know? They'll always so that okay, fine, if you don't have anything to do, you know, particularly a person like Strongman who was a foreigner, it wouldn't have been easy for him to be really left, you know, on his own. MR HATTINGH Why I'm asking you this, Mr Olifant, we've heard evidence in other Committees that at the time when the Harms Commission was appointed, people who had been attached to Vlakplaas and had in the meantime been transferred - I can remember one person in particular or whether I don't recall his name, before the appointment of the Harms Commission was announced, he'd been transferred to Bloemfontein and when the Harms Commission was announced, he was brought back to Vlakplaas and the reason for that was so that they could exercise control over him. Do you know if this was the reason why Mr Coetzee or Mr Pretorius wanted Mr Bambo to come back? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, I won't really say that, no. That was the reason why they wanted him back but there is - maybe that was the reason why they wanted him to be. MR HATTINGH Yes, did they have any reason to think, suspect that Mr Bambo was in desperate straits, that he would want to be employed by them again? MR OLIFANT That I won't really know, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did you report back to them after you managed to find him and requested him to come back. Did you report back to Mr Pretorius that Mr Bambo was not prepared to come back? MR OLIFANT Not Mr Pretorius, but Mr Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So he was also aware of the request that you were - that was put to you by Mr Pretorius? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you explained to him that you found Bambo, Bambo was not prepared to come back? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What was his reaction to that? MR OLIFANT Well he just left it as is, nothing happened. ADV SANDI Sorry, didn't he ask you where you found him? Was he not interested to know where he was available? MR OLIFANT I cannot recollect, Mr Chairperson, whether they asked me that or not. ADV SANDI And where did you find him, by the way? MR OLIFANT I think I got him in the area, in our area in Ermelo Park, Mr Chairperson, if I'm not mistaken. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR HATTINGH Did you, after you contacted Mr Bambo, did you then hear or read somewhere that he'd been arrested? MR OLIFANT Well they never disclosed anything, Mr Chairperson, because to be quite honest with you, he didn't trust me. MR HATTINGH Yes but I mean ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT He knew that Mr Coetzee had sent him to him, he didn't trust me. Immediately, wherever he was leading him, he changed from that place to any other undisclosed place. MR HATTINGH Do you know why he acted in that manner? MR OLIFANT Well he knew, he knew. He knew because - he knew that the Police was behind him and the next thing I came with a message from Mr Coetzee saying that, you know, he wanted to see him and things like that and he said no, he was not prepared and was on his own and that is it. MR HATTINGH Did you get the impression that he was afraid of Mr Coetzee or Mr Pretorius? MR OLIFANT Well not precisely that I got the impression that maybe he wanted to kill him or he wanted to sort of like put him in jail or something like that. I got the impression that he didn't want to meet him and that was it. MR HATTINGH And he didn't want Mr Coetzee to know where he was? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And but after, after you managed to speak to him did you then find out that he'd been arrested? Because we know at the time when he died he was in prison? MR OLIFANT After some time, plus minus four to five months I learned that no, he was arrested and he was actually sort of lucky. He was is an entrapment somewhere in Johannesburg hotel and things like that and including the person who he was involved in the entrapment with, he came to me and disclosed about the whole entrapment and how it happened. MR HATTINGH Yes and did you know that he was in the Modderbee Prison? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes. MR OLIFANT I learned from the brother when they came to give me the report about the brother. MR HATTINGH Where were you stationed at that time? MR OLIFANT At that time we had been already a certain unit consisting of Mr Pretorius and other junior members who had been transferred from Soweto to Braamfontein. MR HATTINGH To Braamfontein? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR HATTINGH And Mr Coetzee? MR OLIFANT Mr Coetzee was now - no, actually if I'm mistaken actually - yes, I'm right, Mr Coetzee was in East Rand. MR HATTINGH In the East Rand? MR OLIFANT Yes, he was based in the East Rand. MR HATTINGH Still attached to the Security Police? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH When, what date are we talking about now, Mr Olifant? When were you transferred to Braamfontein? MR OLIFANT Plus minus early '90s. MR HATTINGH Early '90's? MR OLIFANT I'm talking about late 1990 or 1991. MR HATTINGH Right. Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Just one or two, Chairperson. Mr Olifant, did I understand your evidence correctly that at the stage when you joined the Police when you became a member of Koevoet that you were in fact a refugee from Mozambique? MR OLIFANT No, I've never been a refugee, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Were you a person who could freely come and go to Mozambique? MR OLIFANT No, no. No, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG So it was not possible for you to go and see what family you still had in Mozambique? You couldn't do that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG But you still had contact with them? With your family in Mozambique? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then the second aspect, this Exhibit A, it was noted I see in part, if you look at page 34 thereof, by Captain Andrew Gordon Liesk? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you discuss the death of Adriano Bambo with Captain Liesk? MR OLIFANT That is correct, when he asked me about it. MR VAN DEN BERG And was Captain Liesk investigating? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And that was during 1996? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you, I have no other questions, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Jonker? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Olifant, you've testified at the first statement you've made, you didn't understand the investigating officer, Mr Groenewald, at that stage because due to the language problem. Do you remember that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir and the second statement, Exhibit A, do you understand the statement, this lengthy statement you've made? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson, I do understand it. MR JONKER Do you understand the whole statement, Sir? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. There are a few errors but I understand it, Chairperson. MR JONKER Was there no problem of language in this statement? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Chairperson, considering the English, it was no problem at all, Chairperson. MR JONKER What about the Afrikaans part, Sir? It seems to me that the majority of the statement was done in Afrikaans? MR OLIFANT Well the team consisting of Capt Liesk and others, Capt Liesk could fluently speak English but the other investigating officers, they had a problem with English. MR JONKER Sir, did you read through this whole statement? This Exhibit A? MR OLIFANT Where it's written in English, yes I read it, but words in Afrikaans, well I can't say that I have read it. I read it although I had some other part which I could not understand. MR JONKER Did you at any stage discuss the issues which you didn't understand with your legal representative? MR OLIFANT Well not the whole bundle Mr Chairperson, but the particular matter which we are dealing with presently we have discussed. MR JONKER Was this the statement that you used for your amnesty application, Sir? Exhibit A, was this the document you used for your amnesty application? MR OLIFANT No, Mr Chairperson, we do have a ...(indistinct) one which we have submitted to the TRC. MR JONKER Was that statement done in English or Afrikaans? MR OLIFANT English, Mr Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, you've testified that you and Mr Bambo were like brothers, is that correct? MR OLIFANT No, it is a mistake there Chairperson. My closest friend in the life, indeed a friend. MR JONKER Now you've testified in evidence-in-chief that you said that you and Strongman worked in South West Africa, Mr Coetzee looked after you and then further you testified, you went on? Then you said that you were like brothers? MR OLIFANT Yes, like brothers, that's right, yes. MR JONKER Yes Sir, also further in your statement, I'm actually looking for the specific page ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think he said he was a bosom friend. MR JONKER Indeed so, Your Worship, I'll leave it like that then. In the statement you've made, this Exhibit A. Mr Chairperson, if the Committee can just bear with me for a second, I'm just looking for the correct part? CHAIRPERSON Certainly, Mr Jonker. MR JONKER I'll look for it later. Sir, Mr Bambo and you really trusted each other and you could discuss issues between the two of you? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And he never told you why there was a problem with him and the Police, why he left the Police? MR OLIFANT Well he just said to me that no, he was unhappy about, you know, the salary and that he was leaving. MR JONKER No other reason was supplied by that? MR OLIFANT No. MR JONKER Sir, when Mr Bambo was in prison the first time, can you recall what he was arrested for? MR OLIFANT Yes I do recall. It was for armed robbery. MR JONKER While he was in prison did you go to see him at prison? MR OLIFANT Yes I was the only family then, you know, so he had no family so I had to go and sort of like give him bread, whatever I had to give him, Chairperson. MR JONKER So if I understand you correctly then - well, let me rephrase the question, did the Security Police look after for him for the period that he was in prison? MR OLIFANT For the first time? MR JONKER Yes the first time. MR OLIFANT No, not at all, Chairperson. MR JONKER So apart from you who was his only friend in the country, no one else gave any attention to him while he was in prison the first time? MR OLIFANT Well it was myself and the girlfriend and the daughter was still a little one. MR JONKER But no one else from the office went to see him, from the Security Police side? MR OLIFANT No. MR JONKER Wasn't he upset about that, Sir? MR OLIFANT No, he wasn't upset about it. MR JONKER Not at all? MR OLIFANT Not at all because he knew for a fact that he had committed an error so ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Yes but sorry, did Coetzee and Pretorius know that you were visiting him whilst he was in prison? MR OLIFANT Yes, yes, sometimes I used to say that no, last week I went to see Strongman, how was he and he was fine, so actually they didn't even have a problem with him being in jail and things like that. MR JONKER Sir, I asked you a little bit earlier the question of that you were like brothers, I would like to refer you to page 25, paragraph 92, Exhibit A. I see you said here in this statement "In about October or November 1986, Lt. Coetzee instructed me and my late brother, Adriano Bambo" Why did you refer to him as your late brother, Sir? He was a colleague of yours? MR OLIFANT He was actually more than a brother to me. MR JONKER More than a brother? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER So you were more than just bosom friends, he was more like a brother, he was part of your life? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, if I can really tell you about Strongman, when I say he's my brother. For the first time when he went to jail I looked after his wife - I mean I looked after his girlfriend and a daughter. Even today he is late. There is the daughter standing over there, I am looking after her. She's staying at my place. I do buy, like I do buy anything of my kid. MR JONKER Sir, to come back to the question of the prison. Sir, you went to prison and then you reported back to Pretorius and Coetzee about what Strongman is doing inside the prison? MR OLIFANT No, I never reported back to them. Should they ask me about - eventually ask me about him, I would also say that no, I saw him last month, I saw him last week or something like that. MR JONKER Mr Bambo, I believe, was convicted in the early '80s. Did you and Mr Bambo, were the two of your involved in operations prior to 1984? MR OLIFANT Well ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON At least they knew about Simelane. '82. MR OLIFANT Well not serious operations but we were working together as a colleague and we were performing the normal intelligence work. MR JONKER And while you were there in South West Africa, did everything you did there, was that above board, Sir? MR OLIFANT Well in South West Africa, I mean ...(intervention) MR HURWITZ Chairperson, I object to this line of questioning. The ruling is quite clear, the second ruling of the judgment that the cross-examination must relate to the incident. I don't think we have to delve into what happened in South West Africa. MR JONKER Mr Chairperson, the point I tried to make here is that there is an issue now that Mr Bambo was a security risk for the people only in 1990 what, he became a security risk. He was arrested and convicted in 1984. Wasn't he perhaps a security risk at that stage? CHAIRPERSON No. MR JONKER That's what I'm trying to establish? CHAIRPERSON He was not because he was subsequently taken under their arm again. MR JONKER Exactly. CHAIRPERSON And it's only in 1990 when - 1991, when he was rearrested, that's the issue. MR JONKER That's indeed so, Mr Chairperson, but also in late '70s, early '80s, there were also operations done country wide, there was also the - Security Forces were also involved in other matters. What I tried to establish is why only in 1990 did he become a security risk? If I read through this statement I don't see Mr Bambo's name featured ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He was a security risk as he has testified, that people like Nofomela and Dirk Coetzee were now talking but then there was no question of talking. ADV SANDI And there was no Harms Commission at that stage? MR JONKER I'll leave it then at that. Mr Olifant, at how many incidents was Mr Bambo involved what you know of? MR OLIFANT Some of these incidents, Mapiko incident, precisely I cannot recall them. MR JONKER Can you recall any incident where someone was killed? MR OLIFANT No, I cannot recall any incident where someone was killed. MR JONKER Do you know ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Placing of the bombs at Dube and Mzimshlope under the kombis? Were people killed there? MR OLIFANT Maybe at a later stage people might have been killed but during that time I knew for a fact that there were only serious injured. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed Mr Jonker. MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Sir, that incident at Dube Hostel, I'm quite sure you must be in a position to know if someone died because you applied for amnesty in that? Did you apply for amnesty for the planting of bombs or for the killing of the people? MR OLIFANT For the placing of the bombs. MR JONKER So will you agree with me that you would have by now established or been informed that someone was killed there? MR OLIFANT Well, we were not able to establish whether after a while a person would die or still be alive. MR JONKER Sir, do you agree with me that the incidents where Mr Bambo then was involved, the planting of bombs, it is indeed serious but that it's extremely serious in that it's indeed a security risk? So he planted a bomb, someone got injured, no one got killed? It's not that serious, do you agree with me Sir? CHAIRPERSON That's a human rights violation. MR JONKER Mr Chairperson, it is indeed so. At that stage -I don't want to give evidence here but I think that as Mr Olifant testified, they wanted to go and scare someone, scaring by throwing a handgrenade at him. They scared someone while planting a limpet mine. If they really wanted to go and kill someone I'm quite sure that they would have to, to the extent to make sure instead of just throwing a hand grenade at a ...(indistinct), they could plant a limpet or put a bomb at his front door? CHAIRPERSON The limpet mine in Mzimshlope where there were people in the cars, is it not that they were probably lucky if they got just injured there? What would the intention have been? I mean if you plant a land mind or attached it to a kombi and there are people in there, you could be charged for murder? MR JONKER That is indeed so, Mr Chairperson. I'll just rephrase my question. Mr Olifant, the people in the vehicles at the hostels, did you know them? MR OLIFANT No Mr Chairperson. MR JONKER So what was the purpose of these bombs being planted at the hostels, this limpet? MR OLIFANT Well it was to give credibility to one of our sources. MR OLIFANT To give credibility? So there was no political motive to that? MR OLIFANT It was a political motive, it was to give credibility to our source so that whenever he would meet the other MK members they would really trusted and trust more about the MK ...(indistinct). MR JONKER And that was done by instruction or on instruction of Mr Pretorius and Mr Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, do you perhaps know the reason why Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius would deny that they wanted Mr Bambo out of the way? MR OLIFANT Well I wouldn't know, Mr Chairperson, ...(inaudible) MR JONKER Sir, you've worked with Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius for quite a lengthy period of time, I don't know exactly from when you were working under them but so by now you must know them, do you agree with me? MR OLIFANT Well I'll ...(indistinct) to know a person but not to the extent where you really have to know a person, whether a person had denied or whether you can accept it. MR JONKER Sir, do you agree with me that if Mr Coetzee told you ten years ago that you must go - that's now on your own evidence, if you must go to Swaziland and go and kill someone you would have done that for him? MR OLIFANT Under his instructions yes, I would have done that. MR JONKER Yes, so you really trusted each other? MR OLIFANT No, I abided to his instructions, Chairperson. MR JONKER But surely you would have made sure that you would have known that his instruction was the right thing to do. I don't say it was legitimate, it was the right thing to do, you felt in your heart was the right thing to do. CHAIRPERSON What would an underling do if given instructions. MR JONKER Mr Chairperson, I think it's ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON A foot soldier. You do acts, would you ask why? MR JONKER Mr Chairperson yes, I think when you are instructed to go and murder someone, that is also a member of the Police Force, go to a training college and he's been instructed - you get trained to know what is the difference between right and wrong. So ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's legally because all the operations or matters we hear before us are illegal in the true sense because those were committed because of a conflict within the same community in South Africa, that they did not see eye to eye. MR JONKER Mr Chairperson, that is indeed so but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And again we listened to De Kock, Messrs De Kock and when he gave instructions to Messrs Snyman and Britz, they never questioned why he should probably give those weaponry, land mines and hand grenades. "They couldn't tell us, they said we couldn't question, we trusted him that he wouldn't give us an instruction which we could not carry out and we were not in a position to ask." That's the tenor I'm paraphrasing, the tenor of the evidence thus far. Why would it be different with Mr Olifant when given instructions that he would question his superiors. MR JONKER Mr Chairperson, that is indeed so. I don't want to get involved in an argument here but I think maybe I think that's why some people were sent to the Security Police where they - I don't want to say brainwashed but we can put it in a term of brainwashed to go and comply to some certain instructions. But I will argue it at a later stage about that. I will rephrase my question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly you may do so. MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Olifant, so you don't know any reason why Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius would change their evidence? MR OLIFANT No Mr Chairperson. MR JONKER Did you at any stage have any problems with Mr Coetzee? CHAIRPERSON But I think we should correct that again, that they haven't testified so there's no evidence changed. There's a document before us where they simply say we know nothing. MR JONKER Let me rephrase the question, Sir. Mr Olifant, you've seen the document of, I refer to the statement of Mr Pretorius, I think it is and Mr Coetzee, page 9, bundle 3. If you look at paragraph 3.2 where Mr Coetzee says as follows, I'll translate it to you: "I note in the statement of Mr Olifant, bundle 2, page 11 - 13, that I was scared that in the event of Strongman being arrested, he will inform the people what we were involved in. I deny that I at any stage consulted with Mr Olifant to that extent." So it seems to me that Mr Coetzee will come and deny at any stage he informed you that you must get hold of Mr Bambo for the purpose to remove him because he was a security risk. In any event, to come back to my question, can you see any reason why they would come and deny that now? MR OLIFANT Well the reason I don't know why he'd have to deny about this ...(inaudible). MR JONKER Did you at any stage have any personal problems with Mr Coetzee or Mr Pretorius? MR OLIFANT No, I have never had any personal problems with them, even now we're still laughing, so I don't have problems. CHAIRPERSON And they look well after him and Strongman. MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JONKER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We would take a tea adjournment and come back within ten minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jonker, you indicated that you are finished. I don't know if something cropped into your mind during tea, just to be absolutely certain? MR JONKER I'm finished, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Jonker. Mr Wagener? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr Olifant, whenever I refer to Coetzee and Pretorius, I will mean Willem Coetzee next to me and Anton Pretorius on my other side. CHAIRPERSON Right hand side. MR OLIFANT That's correct. MR WAGENER That's right. CHAIRPERSON You might be referring to Mr Cornelius. MR WAGENER I'll say nothing. Mr Olifant, you have known Coetzee now for nearly 20 years? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And for Pretorius not much shorter? Also ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT Also same thing, yes. 17 to 18 years, that is correct. MR WAGENER And you worked with Coetzee in the then South West Africa? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Was that where you first met him? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And at the time, that's now South West Africa, was Strongman also there? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And did you work under the command of Coetzee? MR OLIFANT He was the second-in-command, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Thereafter, Coetzee was transferred back to South Africa, to Soweto? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And you and Strongman and certain other people were also transferred back to South Africa? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And also to Soweto? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And again you worked under the command of Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Was it there that you met Pretorius? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And is it correct that Coetzee and Pretorius, and I'm now at Soweto, the two of them, they worked close together? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And you and Strongman, you also worked close together with the two of them? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER What was your - that's now you and Strongman, in what capacity did you work with Coetzee and Pretorius at Soweto? MR OLIFANT If you may repeat your question? MR WAGENER Were you - maybe I can help you, were you informers, were you colleagues, were you policemen? MR OLIFANT At that particular time when we joined Soweto, we have been stripped off of being a Koevoet member and we had not - we sort of like being integrated into South African Police so there was a verge where we had to wait for a while before we could become a full member of South African Police. MR WAGENER So is it fair to say that you were working as informers, is that fair? MR OLIFANT Well although it was an assertion, was stating that I was informed but I was practising a full work of any member of Intelligence. MR WAGENER Yes, because we know afterwards, some years later you became a full policeman? MR OLIFANT Yes that is correct. MR WAGENER Which you are still today? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Now at Soweto, well maybe you can help us there, until when were you at Soweto? MR OLIFANT If I'm not mistaken I think it was 1990, somewhere in 1990. 1990, 1991. MR WAGENER And where did you go from there? MR OLIFANT Me and Mr Pretorius we left for - we first came to Pretoria and from Pretoria they sent us back to Johannesburg, that was in Braamfontein, during that year. MR WAGENER So you remained working with Pretorius? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And what happened to Strongman? MR OLIFANT Well Strongman, as the unit became divisible, Mr Coetzee went to East Rand and Mr Pretorius came to Pretoria so Mr Coetzee preferred to take Strongman with and I remained with Mr Pretorius. MR WAGENER Now during the time when all of you, that's now Coetzee, Pretorius, you, Strongman and certain others at Soweto, you worked together for a number of years? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER In many situations? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Many operations? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Even been referred to earlier today as incidents? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER I'm not sure what is meant by incidents but let's call it incidents. During those years, what was your relationship with Coetzee and Pretorius? MR OLIFANT Well it was normal as a colleague, I always considered them to be my seniors and that was it. MR WAGENER Any hard feelings? MR OLIFANT Hard feelings as in hatred? MR WAGENER Yes. MR OLIFANT Well I may be getting - I could have got angry just for maybe five minutes, you know. Not really serious matters, that was it. MR WAGENER And today as we sit here in the year 2000, what is your relationship now with the two of them? MR OLIFANT Well we don't meet regularly, we only meet when we come here but I should think that - I'm sorry to say that they were traitors to me because when days were dark they sort of like vanished from me whereas they'd promised me that now when things will change we'll always be together as they'd been all along. CHAIRPERSON During dark days friends are few? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Wasn't that because you went to cooperate with the investigative team of the Attorney General? MR OLIFANT Not I went, Mr Chairperson, I never went to cooperate. Mr Pretorius knows for a fact I was approached and I had nowhere to go. I even reported this matter to Mr Pretorius, I'm in this situation. He said to me there's nothing what I can do because me too, I'm on the verge of being suspended so look after yourself and I'll look after myself. So I said no, the best well, I'll look after myself of which I did so. MR WAGENER Were you approached by this Capt Liesk or the person who took this long statement? MR OLIFANT Yes that is correct, Mr Chairperson. He said to me look, if I don't cooperate I will go and polish Mr Coetzee's shoes in jail so I avoided such an incident. MR WAGENER Is what you're saying that you were threatened by this Mr Liesk that you should cooperate or else go to prison? MR OLIFANT Well, there's nobody who loves the prison, Mr Chairperson, so as a result of that I accepted to cooperate. MR WAGENER Are you a South African citizen? MR OLIFANT Yes. MR WAGENER Are you not a Mozambican citizen? MR OLIFANT No, not at all. I've never been one. Even my father, he is not a Mozambican citizen. MR WAGENER Did Liesk threaten to have you deported if you don't cooperate? MR OLIFANT Well, that wasn't really threatening me but what was threatening me it was to fool others who had already been, you know, like in that instance, Mr de Kock was being already jailed and I conceded no, if a giants are already being in, so to me as a fish, to be very stupid to be taken off ...(indistinct) and put in water. MR WAGENER As we sit here today, have you ever been threatened by the two of them? MR OLIFANT No, I won't lie about it, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Have they ever instructed you to hide the truth? MR OLIFANT No, it has never happened that way, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Have they ever told you you should keep silent or else? MR OLIFANT No, it has never happened. MR WAGENER And you were involved in a number of operations with the two of them? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Including operations where people were killed? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER If I may come back to this long statement and I hope you have a copy of it with you, that's Exhibit A. Was this the result of an interview with Mr Liesk? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And where did this take place? MR OLIFANT The first day he surprised me at my place and I was not co-operating. The second day he then called me to his office. There I met Mr Thomson. MR WAGENER Toms, I think his surname is Toms. MR OLIFANT Oh, well it's Toms, yes sorry. Brig B Toms. Brig Toms said well, you either play the cards or you lose the game. MR WAGENER Was it then one long interview? MR OLIFANT Yes, it has been long interview. I just gave him the headings of the incident actually, as it appears here. Here it's not in detail. It's only sort of like an introduction to the matter. MR WAGENER Did you mention the incidents yourself or were they mentioned to you by them? MR WAGENER Other incidents yes, they were mentioned to me but other incidents I was sort of like volunteering after I've seen that no, the freedom is better than ...(intervention) MR WAGENER: Well, just to take any one as an example, this must be page 7, at the top there's Mapeka's Case. So would you tell them: "I am now going to address you on an incident to which I will refer as Mapeka's Case" and then you mention certain particulars? MR OLIFANT Well, we first had a discussion of the incident, then he was sort of like taking notes but the day of the statement he then said okay, tell me about Mapeka's case, tell me about this other incident, you know? MR WAGENER And was someone taking notes? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER The day when this interview took place were you scared? MR OLIFANT Well I wasn't comfortable, that's one thing for sure, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Now during this interview you referred to a number of incidents if I look at this long statement and you gave certain detail regarding each one? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER At the time of the interview were you sure of your facts regarding each specific incident? MR OLIFANT Well, yes I was sure because I knew for a fact that after the matter has been typed and things like that, will always come back to me and being reviewed in order to sign and ratify whatever wasn't correct. MR WAGENER Are you sure that - were you sure at the time when you made the statement that for instance when you referred to a specific incident that the individuals involved, according to you, were you sure of that, regarding each and every individual involved in each and every individual incident? MR OLIFANT Well, some other incidents, it wasn't really easy to, you know, quickly recollect you know. It had to take me some time, you know, in order to ratify and come back and whatever, all those things, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Could you have made mistakes regarding this very issue namely who was present at which incident? MR OLIFANT Yes I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Were you then at a later stage given this typed statement? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And were you asked to sign it? MR OLIFANT Well, not all of the incidents I signed, you know, some others I signed, some I didn't sign. MR WAGENER I'm not sure, this is one statement, actually it seems to be an affidavit because at the top it says "Manuel Antonio Olifant states under oath"? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And then it goes from page 1 to 34 and at the end there is where you should have signed the statement. Is that what happened here? MR OLIFANT That is correct but what happens is, after the matter has been typed like I've said earlier on, after the statements have been typed, I was ought to be called into Mr Liesk's office in order to assess whether what is written is correct or not but you know, due to lack of time, things like that, he never called me. So what I did is was just to apply for the incidents, just to apply to the TRC, to the Commission, about the incidents in which I was involved in. MR WAGENER I want to be sure that I understand you correctly. Is this Exhibit A? Is it not an affidavit? MR OLIFANT Well, since I did not sign it, it's not under oath. MR WAGENER It's not even a statement, is that what you say? MR OLIFANT It's not actually literally a statement, it's just an introduction, like I've said, Chairperson. It's just an introduction which Mr Liesk, you know, while he was asking about the incident which had occurred, you always write down, you know? MR WAGENER Is it fair to describe this as consultation notes by Mr Liesk, in respect of a consultation he had with you? MR OLIFANT Well it was a part of the consultation, that's right, yes. MR WAGENER And substantial parts of this is in Afrikaans? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER And you've already told us you don't understand it? MR OLIFANT Well I told the Investigating Officer, look I'm not that much good in Afrikaans so he said no, we will explain to you the day of, you know, signing it and things like that. MR WAGENER Okay, now we know that this is not a statement, it's not even an affidavit? MR OLIFANT Well I will have really to say that it's not an affidavit, it's not a statement but ...(intervention) MR WAGENER No? CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Wagener, what would you make of that? If at the end I say "Ek sertifeer dat bostaande verklaring by my afgeneem is en dat die verklarer erken dat ...(indistinct) hierdie verklaring en dat dit begryp. Hierdie verklaring is voor my beedig deur die verklarers se handtekening en my teenwoordigheid daarop aangebring is" Would we say, strictly speaking, we would end an affidavit in that fashion? MR WAGENER Mr Chairperson, I've sat through a number of previous amnesty hearings where we had documents like this by the same Mr Liesk where witnesses and applicants denied ever having signed it, even having seen it. So I will argue ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON My question is specific that from what I've read to you, you and I being lawyers, will we say that's how an affidavit for instance would end? MR WAGENER Mr Chairperson, that is a proforma, my argument will be this is nothing, it's notes by a person after a consultation. That will be my argument. On the evidence of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's just - you proceed and let's not go into it. I didn't get your drift at first. Let me leave it to you. MR WAGENER But on the basis of this being an affidavit or a statement or whatever, I will ask you certain questions on this anyway. ADV BOSMAN Mr Wagener, I think that the witness may not follow you. Would it not be better to explain to him that you do not regard this legally as a valid affidavit? I don't want to interfere with your cross-examination but I think there may be some misunderstanding there. I mean you - in answer to the Chairperson you said that this is just a proforma but I don't think the witness may understand that. That it looks like an affidavit but it's not a legal document, it's not signed. Is this what you're putting to him? MR WAGENER Yes, this is all really argument now but I've asked the witness whether he ever signed this whether under oath or not and he said he never. ADV BOSMAN Yes but what I'm getting at is that the witness does not understand when you say this is nothing? MR WAGENER What I tried to say is, this is not a statement, it's not an affidavit and that is on his own evidence. ADV BOSMAN You may continue. MR WAGENER On the first page of Exhibit A, under the heading "Introduction", you firstly refer to a matter of Simelane. My instructions are that this took place in September 1983. You were not involved? MR OLIFANT No, I wasn't involved. MR WAGENER Can you deny the date? MR OLIFANT Well I wouldn't deny it. MR WAGENER Both Coetzee and Pretorius, they were involved and they've applied for amnesty for this. Do you know about that? MR OLIFANT Yes, I've heard about it. MR WAGENER And they will give evidence that Strongman was in fact involved in this incident in a sense. There was an abduction and afterwards an unlawful detention and he was part of the unlawful detention in that he guarded the person. Strongman. Can you deny that? MR OLIFANT Like I said I wasn't involved, so. MR WAGENER Yes and as a matter of interest Strongman went to prison after this, I think in 1984? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER So during that period in prison, if he wanted to divulge any information on this incident he could have? MR OLIFANT Well that always depended entirely on him so I wouldn't like to comment on that. MR WAGENER On the same page you refer to an incident, two paragraphs later, that you referred - that I may refer to as the Chancellor's house, do you see that? There was an incident with a hand grenade at a Chancellor's house. Was Pretorius involved in this? MR OLIFANT Well I can't recollect it but I know for a fact that he was a member of the unit and that ...(intervention) MR WAGENER Was he involved in this incident at all? Pretorius? MR OLIFANT No, physically he wasn't involved. MR WAGENER In any way? MR OLIFANT Nor was Coetzee involved, physically. MR WAGENER Alright but I'm asking you about Pretorius. Was he involved in this incident? Was he involved in this incident, whether physically or otherwise? MR OLIFANT I will say no. MR WAGENER Yes. Was Coetzee involved? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. He was the person who gave instructions for us to go there. MR WAGENER That is correct and are you aware that Mr Coetzee has filed an application for amnesty in respect of this incident? MR OLIFANT Well I don't know about it. MR WAGENER Well I can tell you he did and he will testify to that. Are you sure that Strongman was in fact involved in this one? MR OLIFANT In which matter, Mr Chairperson? MR WAGENER In this incident that we're referring to now? MR OLIFANT Definitely sure, definitely sure. MR WAGENER Because Mr Coetzee tells me that you are confused. He was not involved in this incident. You were, yes. You were and certain other members but not Strongman. That's why I ask you the question. MR OLIFANT Strongman was involved. MR WAGENER You then refer to an incident, at the bottom of the same page over to the next page of the - I'm not sure how you pronounce it? Mzimshlope? CHAIRPERSON Mzimshlope. MR WAGENER It's a difficult word for me Chairperson. Hostel, the incident of the kombi and the Dube Hostel. Both Coetzee and Pretorius deny that they were involved in this incident at all and they have filled affidavits to this effect. You will remember this was already a matter before the Amnesty Committee and they have filed their affidavits to that effect. I'm sure you must have seen it or you must have heard about it? MR OLIFANT Well I heard on the ...(indistinct) Commission. MR WAGENER Yes. You agree that had they been involved they could have asked for amnesty for that as well? MR OLIFANT Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius, they had so much things to do and I just wonder why they didn't apply for this amnesty because they were involved. I'm not fabricating any story, they were involved. MR WAGENER But you heard my question that I said that had they been involved they could easily have asked for amnesty for this as well? MR OLIFANT Well they might have forgotten about the incident because some of the incidents here, I had to remind Mr Pretorius. MR WAGENER On the second page you refer to an incident at an amphitheatre a Jabulani. Now I can tell you that both Coetzee and Pretorius have filed amnesty applications for this so I assume you would accept that? MR OLIFANT Yes I do, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And my instructions are that you were in fact involved as you state here? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson, I was involved. MR WAGENER But again they say you're making a mistake about Strongman, he was not involved in this incident at all? MR OLIFANT Strongman was involved. He's the person who was, how can I say, he was helping the person who was, you know, who was placing the land mines whereas me and others, myself and others, we actually sort of, you know, outside from the ...(indistinct). MR WAGENER No this will still be the subject matter of amnesty hearings so I do not intend going into detail here, Chairperson, all I'm doing is I'm putting my instructions to the witness. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't know even whether I would be on the Panel, I wouldn't want to hear that. I would be prejudiced. MR WAGENER I would hope not, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Either for or against. MR WAGENER The same, Mr Olifant, goes for the next paragraph on page 2 where you refer to the Pilegeng offices incident. Both Coetzee, Pretorius, have applied for amnesty here and again I assume you can't deny that, you will accept that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And again they say Strongman's functions were something else, he was not involved in this, you are confused and that the hearing of this matter, they will testify to that effect. Do you want to comment? MR OLIFANT He was involved, he is the person who carried up the 25 litres of diesel, he is the person who broke out the window in order to pour the diesel into the Pilegeng. MR WAGENER Then on page 4 of Exhibit A you refer to an incident in Swaziland where you say that some of you went into Swaziland for intelligence gathering operation. That is on page 4 of Exhibit A, do you remember that? MR OLIFANT Yes I do remember, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Now my instructions are that Coetzee and Pretorius say they think they can remember something like this but it was no offence, it was the normal duties of the intelligence unit of the Security Branch at the time. Can you deny that? MR OLIFANT I don't deny the fact that we went to Swaziland. MR WAGENER And this in fact ties up with, if I may jump to page 25 of the same document there, you will see at the top under the heading "Swaziland", you refer to an incident in Swaziland. Now I assume what you mean here is when at a later state certain police members went into Swaziland and there was a shoot out and certain people there were killed? MR OLIFANT I do agree with you, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER You were not involved in that? MR OLIFANT No, I wasn't involved in the shooting. MR WAGENER Strongman was not involved? MR OLIFANT He wasn't involved as well. MR WAGENER That is the incident that's been referred to earlier today as the Sponsu Smith incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And there was an amnesty hearing on this already? MR OLIFANT That was, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And all the applicants have already received amnesty for this? MR OLIFANT Yes. MR WAGENER Including Coetzee and Pretorius? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER Then on page 7, you will see at the top there's the heading that I read to you, I'm not sure of the pronunciation. Is that Mafeke or Mapeke? MR OLIFANT Mapeke. MR WAGENER Mafeke? CHAIRPERSON Mapeke. MR WAGENER Mapeke, sorry. Thank you Chairperson. You will see there in paragraph 6 of that page you refer to an incident to bomb the professor's house. Now I'm not sure, is that the same incident that you refer to on page 1? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Yes, it's the same one? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER Yes it's the same one, not a different one? MR OLIFANT No. MR WAGENER So you remember what I've put to you in respect of the incident on the first page so the same will apply here, it's the same incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Then on the next page under the heading "Ipeleng Gemeenskap Sentrum, Soweto", do you see that? Again is that the same incident referred to on page 2 in the third paragraph, that's the same incident? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER It's not another one? MR OLIFANT No. MR WAGENER So I think I've dealt with all the incidents in Exhibit A involving Strongman? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER The bottom line, Mr Olifant, is that Coetzee and Pretorius instructed me that all these incidents where they were involved in and for which they apply for amnesty, only one, that is the Simelane incident, the only one where Strongman was involved in and they will testify to that effect. What do you say about that? MR OLIFANT Well if they deny the fact that Strongman wasn't involved, that's entirely up to them. I should think we're here to talk the truth so if they're not prepared to talk the truth it's up to them. MR WAGENER Yes but you also said a short while ago that you're not sure about all the individuals involved in each and every specific incident? MR OLIFANT No, I know. I know why I made a mistake. I know what I'm talking about. You know the only place during that Demapiek case, it's either - if I may go back? MR WAGENER It's page 7. MR OLIFANT I know Mila or Oscar, these are the two people who are ...(indistinct) but the rest of the people, I'm quite correct about it. MR WAGENER So now you say you're quite sure about all the individuals ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT That's right. MR WAGENER Involved in each area of the incident, is that the evidence now? MR OLIFANT Except ...(indistinct) ...(intervention) Excuse me ...(intervention) MR WAGENER Sorry, I was rude to you but can I rephrase please? Is it now your evidence that apart from this one incident that you referred me to now you are quite sure about your facts regarding individuals involved and present? MR OLIFANT About all these things that's right. MR WAGENER You're quite sure? MR OLIFANT Quite sure. MR WAGENER After all these years? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER So when you said earlier, a short while ago, you could have made mistakes you didn't refer to this at all? MR OLIFANT I only referred about Oscar and Mandla specifically. MR WAGENER Now if I may turn to Exhibit A page 6, that is the part where you deal with I would imagine what we're here for today. You will see there the two paragraphs. Is it correct that it was in the newspaper that Strongman had escaped from custody? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And that you and Pretorius had a discussion about this report in the newspaper? MR OLIFANT Not about what has been reported. MR WAGENER Or as a result of the report in the newspaper? MR OLIFANT Well he never said so that as a result of the report in the newspaper but as a matter of concern. MR WAGENER Yes. Now you've testified that you knew Strongman very well? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER He was like a brother to you? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Actually more than a brother, Mr Wagener, he said later. MR WAGENER Thank you. Where does the name Strongman come from? MR OLIFANT The name Strongman, what happened is this. After a month of being in South West Africa, what happens is we had a contact, you know for the first time being in the bush, you know, you come across a serious fight. So Strongman was able to take out the MGM from the Casspir, you know, from the Hippo and jump outside and fire effectively up to ...(indistinct) where he could stabilise the enemy and Mr Coetzee, when he saw him carrying that MGM, firing seriously, he said you are a strong guy and the name generated from there, Strongman. MR WAGENER Was he known as an aggressive and violent person? MR OLIFANT Not really aggressive but you know, let me just put it this way, he was a good fighter. MR WAGENER Could he react violently if cornered? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER And was that the concern of Pretorius when the two of you discussed the fact that he had escaped from custody? MR OLIFANT What I understood from Mr Pretorius is this, he was accosted by senior member officers, Soweto Offices and asked what is taking place now, where is this man because we know this man working with you people, now what will have gone wrong? MR WAGENER And was the concern also that would he have been accosted by the Police, there could have been a violent reaction or situation? MR OLIFANT Well maybe the senior members were really concerned about that matter because at the time when everything was okay he used to give a good recommendation about Strongman, Strongman is good in this, whatever and all those things but at the end of the day Strongman was now a criminal, no longer a good person as been ...(indistinct) all along. MR WAGENER But you testified earlier today about the concern of Pretorius and I would like to make very sure that I understand this correctly, was his concern that there may be a violent situation should the Police rearrest or try to rearrest Strongman. MR OLIFANT Why he approached me, yes, that was the reason. Why he approached me, it was to know whereabouts Strongman was and what Strongman was busy doing and where is he. MR WAGENER Now I can put it to you that Mr Pretorius doesn't deny this conversation. I want to make it perfectly clear, he doesn't deny this conversation between the two of you regarding Strongman. That's not denied, but he denies that any part of this conversation was that you or they, the Police, the Security Branch, had to kill Strongman? CHAIRPERSON No, no. In his oral evidence he says it's not written correctly. What he meant or tried to convey was that Strongman, as he was military trained, might react and a killing could ensue from that. Not the other way round that the police would kill Strongman, no. MR WAGENER And Mr Pretorius - or you testified that Pretorius also expressed his concern because of the fact that other policemen were talking, busy talking and I think you refer to Almond Nofomela and Mr Dirk Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER Now that part of your evidence, that is denied by Mr Pretorius. He said there were no such discussions and he will give evidence to that effect. So are you sure about that part? MR OLIFANT I'm definitely sure that he spoke about it. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Wagener, are you going to ask you a question on a different aspect because I just want to ask him something on this particular issue. MR WAGENER Chairperson, yes, I would like to go over to the alleged discussion with Coetzee so you're welcome. ADV SANDI Yes, just on this conversation between yourself and did you say Mr Pretorius? Mr Pretorius, yes. I didn't quite follow you, did he say to you he had been accosted by senior members from the head office? Can you just repeat that? MR OLIFANT He said to me well I'm being asked about - okay fine, let me just recap, he said that he is being asked, by whom he never said about Strongman. Now he wanted to know from me whether I had any knowledge about Strongman or not. ADV SANDI Did he say he was being asked by people from the head office or did I misunderstand? MR OLIFANT Well it appeared to me that people from the head office but he said he is being asked about Strongman. ADV SANDI Yes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON So you are merely talking about the impression he created on you? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairperson, maybe I should just follow up on that. Are you sure that this reference to head office was not at a much earlier stage, that is after the first imprisonment of Strongman in '84? MR OLIFANT No it had nothing - it was non-related to the previous imprisonment but we're talking about, you know, that time when Strongman now had actually begun by making armed robberies. CHAIRPERSON No, Mr Olifant, understand Mr Wagener perfectly. He says are you not saying that conversation took place when he was arrested the first time. Am I hearing you correctly Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Maybe I can try again, Mr Chairperson. By putting to you my instructions that after his first imprisonment, that was in the early '80s, 1984, 1985, he spent time in prison. You are aware of that? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And immediately after that he was again employed by the Security Branch? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER By Intelligence Unit? MR OLIFANT Yes. MR WAGENER The same people here? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER Now at that stage, I'm going back in time now? MR OLIFANT That's right. MR WAGENER My instructions are that the matter was discussed at head office. There was head office involvement whether he should again be employed or not? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER That's why I asked the question are you sure that you've just testified here that shortly before his death you had a discussion with Pretorius and you got certain impressions of head office or the involvement of head office. Now I'm asking you are you sure about that. Aren't you making a mistake? Didn't this happen ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT No I'm not making any mistake about it. ...(inaudible). MR WAGENER Anyway, for completeness sake Mr Pretorius will say there was no such discussion. This must have been the end of 1990 or round about there. The discussion you testified about that you had with Mr Coetzee, that is Volume 2, that's the other statement now, page 11. Do you see that? Paragraph 4, page 11, Volume 2 - bundle 2, sorry. Bundle 2. There you refer to a conversation you had with Coetzee, do you see that? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER When did this conversation take place in terms of the matter that we're here for? MR OLIFANT The precise date and the year, it was during let's say 1991 somewhere there. MR WAGENER Was this - maybe I can be more clear, was this the stage after he had escaped from custody? MR OLIFANT That is correct, yes, after he escaped from custody. MR WAGENER I've seen somewhere an affidavit, I think by Grimbeek or someone saying he escaped on the 21st October 1990 and he was again arrested somewhere in December 1990? MR OLIFANT That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER So was this conversation ...(intervention) MR OLIFANT Well between that ...(intervention) MR WAGENER Are you sure about that? MR OLIFANT I'm definitely sure about that Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Because Mr Coetzee will testify that he can remember a conversation he had with you regarding Strongman but that was earlier, that was before he was again detained? So that's why I'm asking you, are you sure it was in this short period that I've just referred to? MR OLIFANT Well about dates I'm not quite you know certain. MR WAGENER And Mr Coetzee will also say that he told you that he, Coetzee, had obtained information that Strongman was involved in criminal acts? MR OLIFANT That he told me, yes I do agree. MR WAGENER And that he requested you to try and approach Strongman and to bring him for a conversation with Coetzee? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER Because Coetzee wanted to warn him, to stop his criminal activities? MR OLIFANT That is correct. MR WAGENER Yes. So again Coetzee won't deny a conversation between you and him regarding Strongman but he will deny that he ever said that he was afraid that Strongman may start speaking out about previous Security Branch operations as is stated here in paragraph 4. Can you comment on that? MR OLIFANT Well I have no comment, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So he would be right if you don't have comments? That is Mr Coetzee? MR OLIFANT I know for a fact that he spoke to me about it. But if he denies there's nothing what I can say why he has to deny. He's denying because he knows why he denies it. CHAIRPERSON But are you steadfast in what you are saying, that's the question? MR OLIFANT That is correct, I'm quite clear of what I'm saying that he said so to me. CHAIRPERSON You may continue Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Are you sure you don't know the reason why Coetzee decided to break all ties with Strongman? MR OLIFANT Well Mr Coetzee never broke ties with Strongman. Strongman broke ties with Mr Coetzee, if I may ...(indistinct). MR WAGENER Immediately I have to put it to you that you're wrong. Coetzee will clearly testify that he decided he has had enough of Strongman and he decided to break the ties. You don't even know that? MR OLIFANT There's no such - I know for a fact that a person of Strongman's calibre to Mr Coetzee meant a lot. MR WAGENER And Mr Coetzee will also testify that it had nothing to do with salary or money? MR OLIFANT Well concerning about salaries and money, Strongman told me that Mr Coetzee, he was not prepared to help him on that particular matter. ADV SANDI Sorry, just about the salaries. Do you know how much - sorry Mr Wagener, if I may just come in? Do you know how much he was earning per month? MR OLIFANT No I can't recollect although I knew that time but now I cannot recall how much he was earning but I know plus minus R400 and something to R500. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR WAGENER Then another matter, Mr Olifant, it's not directly relevant to my clients but we heard evidence earlier here in this hearing by Mr de Kock regarding three policemen -sorry, three Portuguese people sent back to Mozambique to be killed. You heard that evidence? MR OLIFANT Well that was often problems with the people who worked with Security Branch inside, whenever they had a problem, even Strongman was once tried to be deported by Dirk Coetzee. MR WAGENER Yes. MR OLIFANT It was in 1981. MR WAGENER That was what I wanted to ask you. Wasn't Strongman one of these people that Mr de Kock referred to? MR OLIFANT No, not on this what I call - well I think those are two different what you call it, I know for a fact that it was a time where Strongman and plus other two, you know where were caught by Dirk Coetzee, Nofomela and Chakarango - Nakaranga, something like that. Chikalanga, yes - put in a bakkie and carved everything and taken straight to Komatipoort. MR WAGENER Was there a person called Amaro with them? MR WAGENER Amartoba da Silva yes, that was Amartoba da Silva and at the hand they would phone the Mozambican Intelligence because they knew for a fact that being South African and being a member of the intelligence this side he will always face the death penalty the other side so whenever they didn't want to deal with you this side, they will keep you, they will sort of like kidnap you and take you straight to Mozambique and you will be facing all the consequences. MR WAGENER And how did Strongman survive. MR OLIFANT Strongman, how he survived is this. At the end of the day Strongman was not wrong because when this thing happened I wasn't here I was in South West Africa. But now according to what someone said to me, he said how he survived was this. Someone approached Dirk Coetzee and told Dirk Coetzee fine, but now what are you doing to these boys? He said no, these boys don't have discipline. But okay, fine, you know Strongman, how is Strongman, he is a good person, he has been doing well all along but now what is the problem? He said okay, fine, what I'll do is this, I'll take something out from these three and I'll sent Amartaba da Silva and I'll send this Nicholas Criminolas. I gave them to the Mozambican Government. Well the Mozambican Government said well thanks a lot, long we have been looking for Amartaba da Silva, he's been one of the most wanted elements in Mozambican and thereafter he was sentenced to death. Strongman was put into the next border, that was Swaziland and eventually he managed to come back and he reported the matter and Dirk Coetzee was forced out from Vlakplaas. MR WAGENER Thank you. The last point. You refer to the imprisonment of Strongman, that is the earlier imprisonment in 1984. Now I'm not sure whether I understand your evidence correctly, you said that the Security Branch did not look after him in prison. Was that your evidence? MR OLIFANT That is correct yes, according to the family's questions. MR WAGENER But you also said that Coetzee and Pretorius visited him in prison. Or I'm not sure on this one? CHAIRPERSON No, no. He then reported to them. MR OLIFANT That's right. MR WAGENER Okay, thank you Chairperson because I wasn't sure because they say they did not visit him in prison. You could have, they don't know. Thank you Chairperson, the rest is basically argument. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Mr Olifant, given your long standing relationship with Strongman, do you believe that at the time when he was involved in his criminal activities after he had left the employ of Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius, that he would have revealed the information that he had had about his work as an informer? MR OLIFANT Well I don't think he would have done so because he feared one thing. He knew, he was actually trying to hide identity of being a policeman, he was only covered by, you know, one of the members, if I'm not mistaken, from a former policeman who was at one stage at Vlakplaas who ...(indistinct) he once worked with us in Vlakplaas. MS PATEL And when did this occur? MR OLIFANT During that verge of you know, when he was ...(intervention) MS PATEL Was he still working as an informer at the time that he was discovered by the Vlakplaas members? MR OLIFANT No, no, he was no longer working, he was no longer working. MS PATEL Okay and did he inform you of this? MR OLIFANT No, no, he always told what about the brother about it, so the brother used to tell me all this. MS PATEL Okay, fine. Do you know whether Strongman had any liaison with Vlakplaas and Mr de Kock specifically? MR OLIFANT No, not that I know of. MS PATEL Or with Brigadier Engelbrecht? MR OLIFANT No. MS PATEL Alright. Do you know whether he knew Mr Koekemoer who testified here yesterday? MR OLIFANT No, he never knew Mr Koekemoer. That I know for a fact that he never knew Mr Koekemoer. He would know Mr de Kock yes because we were together in South West Africa but Mr Engelbrecht and Koekemoer he ...(indistinct). MS PATEL Okay. You've heard Mr Koekemoer's testimony yesterday regarding Strongman's desire to point out the arms cache. Do you care to express an opinion on how this was done? MR OLIFANT Well I will say that Strongman wasn't that type of person who would go by, you know, taking land mines and go making DLB and things like that but would go for a ...(indistinct) pistol and things like that because I mean he was making robberies. MS PATEL Okay. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Koekemoer said initially what Strongman told him was that he has hidden handguns and only to discover that it was land mines. MR OLIFANT First of all Strongman never even knew, you know, where was Kanyamasani. Okay, although he used sometimes to go by ...(indistinct) sent by Mr Coetzee to go to Nelspruit, you know, and do something else but when you talk about Kanyamasani places like that I doubt that Strongman will have known about such a place. MS PATEL Okay. CHAIRPERSON But Kanyamasani was next to Nelspruit? MR OLIFANT Well it's a bit of distance, Chairperson, but Strongman once or twice went to Nelspruit if I may recollect, Mr Chairperson. Once or twice went to Nelspruit. Strongman will have any linking with anybody from Mozambique or will go to Mozambique to go collect guns. I wouldn't have gone to Mozambique because Mozambique at that stage was a hot spot. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed Ms Patel. MS PATEL No, that is all, thank you Honourable Chairperson. I believe he has answered the questions that I would have asked. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry to have just jumped in like that. MS PATEL No, no, that's fine. Thank you Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI I've got no questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR HURWITZ No re-examination. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Olifant. You are excused. MR OLIFANT Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I see we are fast approaching 1 o'clock, would it serve any purpose for anybody to start his testimony now and break for lunch? Shouldn't we rather take our lunch and come back at 1.30. Is that inconvenient? We'll adjourn for lunch and come back at one-thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We have completed Mr Olifant. Mr Wagener, with whom are you starting? MR WAGENER Chairperson yes, the next witness will be Mr Coetzee. You will find his affidavit in bundle 3 from page 7 onwards. As the result of this he has been subpoenaed to give evidence before you today. CHAIRPERSON Certainly. MR WAGENER He is next to me and wishes to testify in Afrikaans please. CHAIRPERSON On which side of you? MR WAGENER My right hand side. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr Coetzee, as I have mentioned, you have made this statement in bundle 3 from page 7 up until page 11, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER Concerning paragraph 1.3 of this affidavit on page 7 you informed me that there's a typing error where there is reference made to eleven incidents and then it's wrong and that it should read thirteen incidents, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER You then ask that we will then amend this affidavit as such? Mr Chairperson, I think this is an objective fact. The application is with me, the eleven should be thirteen. CHAIRPERSON No, I don't think there would be an objection to that. Would there be any? MR HATTINGH I have no objection Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The amendments are agreed on. MR WAGENER It was the attorney who could not count. Mr Coetzee, apart from what we've just referred to do you once again confirm the correctness of this statement? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER I will shortly refer you to certain aspects that I see as being important. Do you confirm and I'm referring to paragraph 1.2, the terms that you served at the various stations? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR WAGENER I can ask you now, the deceased in this case, Strongman, if I can refer to him in that way, where and when did you meet him for the first time? MR COETZEE In Namibia, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER During which time or period? MR COETZEE It was in the years of '80/'81. MR WAGENER Did you serve together in Koevoet? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Were you his commander? MR COETZEE Second in command. MR WAGENER Who was the commander? MR COETZEE It was Captain du Plessis, Chairperson. MR WAGENER From April 1981 you were transferred to the Republic to Soweto? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR WAGENER We've already heard evidence from the other colleagues from Koevoet who followed you to Soweto? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER And we heard from Mr Olifant, that it included him and Strongman as well as others? MR COETZEE Yes as well as others. MR WAGENER You say in paragraph 2 of your affidavit that in the period in Soweto Strongman functioned as an informer with Mr Pretorius and yourself as his handlers? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR WAGENER Does this mean that he was not a fully fledged member of the Police at that stage? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER If you in short can say what his tasks were during this period? MR COETZEE He was supporting all operational activities. MR WAGENER What do you mean by that? MR COETZEE To secure a scene and the co-handling of handlers, the picking up and dropping of them which was then mainly his functions. Supporting certain information systems from time to time when it was necessary, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Mr Olifant testified that at a certain stage you left Soweto and that Strongman followed you? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Exactly where did you go? MR COETZEE We went to head office in Pretoria. MR WAGENER He was still his immediate commander? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Now we know that Strongman was found guilty at one stage of robbery and that he served a sentence. It seems amongst others - Mr Chairperson, bundle 2 page 37 you will find the SAP-69. CHAIRPERSON Just bear with us, Mr Wagener? Page 69 you said? MR WAGENER No, it is the police form called SAP-69, that is the criminal record of previous convictions. It's in bundle 2, page 37. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed. MR WAGENER Briefly, do you know what the circumstances were that led to this sentence? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Can you just tell us? MR COETZEE It was a robbery that was committed and I'm talking under correction, it was in Lenasia at a bank. MR WAGENER And according to the SAP-69 there was a firearm involved? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. A firearm was stolen from the Soweto Security Branch offices, under what circumstances I cannot really comment on. MR WAGENER Does that mean that Strongman committed this crime with a police weapon? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER After he served his sentence can you recall how long he was in jail? MR COETZEE It was approximately a year or two years or maybe even three years, I'm not quite sure. MR WAGENER After he was released from jail what happened to him then? MR COETZEE We took him back on the request of Brigadier van Rensburg from head office in Pretoria. MR WAGENER So that was apart from the fact that he committed a robbery with a stolen police weapon? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR WAGENER Before he committed this specific crime, how would you describe your relationship with him? MR COETZEE It was very good. MR WAGENER Was there any discomfort or arguments between the two of you? MR COETZEE No. MR WAGENER We've heard evidence that you look after him? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson, not just him but physically all of them. All the members of the unit. MR WAGENER Can you maybe give us details in this regard? What do you mean that you looked after them or cared for them? MR COETZEE We assisted them in terms of clothing, buying them clothes, knowing that they did not earn a proper salary at that stage and they also did not have academic documents and they served only as informers, they were not members of the force. In other words they did not receive good salaries on a monthly basis. MR WAGENER In this period while he was in jail and I'm still at that first sentence, jail sentence, did you go and visit him? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Very well, you have testified that after he was released on request of headquarters he was then again employed? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR WAGENER Strongman, was he a very good worker? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson up until later problems. MR WAGENER Can you tell us about this? MR COETZEE Our physical break with them was he was one of various co-handlers employed by the office under my command and control. In '89/'90 there was an incident, Mr Chairperson, that led to a break between myself and him with instructions that his further involvement in the Intelligent Service, because of his disciplinary problems, would be terminated. His criminal background and his disciplinary problems led to this. He went to a house where there were various agents, were accommodated in office hours and after office hours he was responsible for providing the people with food after hours, to care for them, look after their needs. These agents were not supposed to know each other. He would then leave this place in the evenings that then led to the fact that agents met each other during training in this safe house and one of the agents worked on a need to know basis and he would then be managed according to the name that was given to him. He had very bad discipline, was irresponsible and this led to agents meeting each other, knew each other's identities and that these people had to be withdrawn from the operational field. At various opportunities he also misused some of the State vehicles. There was a very clear change in his involvement and the chances that he took. At times when he left knowing that he was not at the safe house when he was supposed to serve there. ADV BOSMAN Mr Wagener, can I just come in here? I can hear that the interpreter finds it difficult to follow, if you can just slow down a bit? I'm sorry for the interruption. MR WAGENER What you've just referred to, Mr Coetzee, was this now the irregularities to which you referred to in paragraph 2 of your statement? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And on these grounds you say that you decided to break all ties with them? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Earlier today there was a suggestion that he left your employment out of free will? MR COETZEE I deny this. MR WAGENER There was also a suggestion that it was about unhappiness concerning salaries? MR COETZEE We all got a small salary. MR WAGENER But according to you it was not the reason? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER You now say also in paragraph 2.4 that you were satisfied that he did not hold any risks for the department. What exactly do you mean? MR COETZEE That by letting him go, meaning that he was already channelised in this programme and because of his actions in the operational field and the fact that the agents disclosed the identities to each other. He was also on a co-handling level. In other words, Mr Chairperson, he was not clued up concerning the operational tasks of the agents who were placed on an operational level whether internally or abroad. MR WAGENER You're saying now that you and your colleague, Mr Pretorius, were guilty of various offences, well in Soweto. This is now you and Mr Pretorius, you now apply for amnesty for them? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Were you not worried that Strongman can be a risk in that regard? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Why not? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, he was involved in such actions or such operations before his first arrest. MR WAGENER To what actions are you referring to now? MR COETZEE I'm talking about the Simelane incident for which we applied for amnesty. MR WAGENER That is where you refer to in paragraph 2.2 in your affidavit. When did this incident take place? MR COETZEE It was in the years '82, '83. MR WAGENER Mr Pretorius says it was in September, August or September in 1983? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson, that is correct. MR WAGENER Briefly, what did this incident entail? MR COETZEE It was the arrest, it was an abduction of a female MK member. MR WAGENER Was Strongman involved in this what you call an abduction? MR COETZEE Yes in the sense that he assisted in guarding this person at a later stage. MR WAGENER So he was not involved in the abduction itself? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER But he was involved in the detention of that person at a later stage? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER According to Exhibit A, this is the statement, if I may call it a statement of Mr Olifant. You've seen this document? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER You've seen that Mr Olifant then there deals with various incidents where he said he was involved? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And he also mentions a few incidents where he says that amongst others yourself and Strongman were also involved? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER You were present when I questioned Mr Olifant concerning this and the denials or the certain statements that I put to him, do you agree with that and do you confirm that? MR COETZEE Yes I do. MR WAGENER In other words, to save time? MR COETZEE The Simelane case, I'd highlight. This is the incident where I can confirm that he was involved in. MR WAGENER And that's the only one? MR COETZEE Yes that is correct. MR WAGENER Did you at a certain stage realise, that is now after you broke your ties with Strongman, that he was busy with criminal acts? Where did you receive this information from? MR COETZEE From co-handlers. MR WAGENER Did you in that regard take any steps? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER What did you do? MR COETZEE I told the members who, if they meet him again, must arrange for a meeting. I then requested Olifant to arrange for contact with them to try and arrange for a meeting with this person in order to talk to him and if possible to then get some information from him and then to warn him as well. MR WAGENER You say to warn him? In what sense? MR COETZEE To warn him in the sense that he knows what happened in the past, that there's no assistance if he was found guilty of any criminal activities and the information had no substance at that stage, they were only allegations. We did not investigate these instances ourselves. MR WAGENER Were you worried that he could disclose sensitive information concerning operations in which you were involved in? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER In other words that was not a consideration for you? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER We do know now that Strongman is deceased and that was during March 1991. Can you recall when you heard about this? MR COETZEE It was after his death, Mr Chairperson. It was in relation to - I'm talking under correction, I think it was members from a unit who heard from Mr Olifant about this specific incident and heard about this action where he was killed and also at a later stage or also in that same period of time from Col Pretorius with whom Olifant worked with in the offices. MR WAGENER Now in this specific incident, one of the applicants, Mr de Kock, testified that Strongman was eliminated on instructions from Gen. Engelbrecht because there was apparently a fear with you and Mr Pretorius that Strongman will disclose sensitive information about your earlier operations in Soweto. You've seen it and you heard it in the evidence? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR WAGENER You've already testified that he held no threat or risk for you? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER In March 1991 did you know Gen. Engelbrecht? MR COETZEE It's possible, yes. MR WAGENER Well, did you know him? MR COETZEE I would say March '91, not personally no. MR WAGENER Because he will testify that in January 1991 he formally joined the Security Branch from the Detective Branch. Did you know him before he joined the Security Branch? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER In March 1991 Gen. Engelbrecht was a confidante of yours? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER In other words would you have discussed aspects with them, for example the cases for which you applied for amnesty now? MR COETZEE No. MR WAGENER At that stage, that was now March 1991, did you know Mr de Kock? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER From where do you know him or just give us some background? MR COETZEE It was from the Namibia era. MR WAGENER Were you colleagues in Koevoet? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And was there a feeling of trust between the two of you? MR COETZEE Yes I'd put it like that. MR WAGENER Let us assume that Strongman held a risk for the operations. We know that it's not the case but let us just assume that it was the case and he was a great security risk for you. What would you have done about it? MR COETZEE I believe I would have discussed this with Col de Kock. MR WAGENER Directly? MR COETZEE Yes, directly. For assistance in case such a situation was created. MR WAGENER Mr Coetzee, concerning the death of Strongman, were you involved in it? The planning beforehand and the execution of it? MR COETZEE No. MR WAGENER You heard the evidence of Mr de Kock in this regard? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Do you deny it? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER After Strongman's death, that is now from 1991, did Mr de Kock at any stage make contact with you and discuss this matter now? This is Strongman's death? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER When did you become aware of the allegations from Mr de Kock that you and Mr Pretorius were supposedly involved in Strongman's death? MR COETZEE I'm talking under correction but I think it was late 1996 with the amnesty process. MR WAGENER In other words it was at a stage when you, if you were involved, you still could have asked for amnesty? MR COETZEE Yes that is correct. MR WAGENER And you didn't? MR COETZEE No I didn't. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Coetzee, let's talk about Mr Olifant first. He also served with you in Namibia, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And did he render the same services there, that Strongman rendered, Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. I would just like to make a correction here, Chairperson. Up until my departure, they were part of the same combat unit. MR HATTINGH I understand what you're saying, I'm just referring to matters of which you have knowledge. And then you came to Soweto and both Messrs Olifant and Bambo accompanied you? MR COETZEE Well, they only followed at a later stage, Chairperson and I heard why they were sent back was there was a problem in Namibia and upon instruction in Namibia they were sent back to the R.S.A. and then eventually via Brig van Rensburg, they arrived at the Soweto Security Branch, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This Brig van Rensburg to whom you refer to, is that the well known Nick van Rensburg? MR COETZEE Negative Chairperson. MR HATTINGH No? Which Van Rensburg are you referring to? MR COETZEE This was a Brig van Rensburg, I do not recall his first name but I do know that it was not Gen. van Rensburg, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This Van Rensburg to whom you refer to, to which division was he attached? MR COETZEE Security Head Office, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And his rank was brigadier? MR COETZEE Yes, later years, at that stage he was a Col van Rensburg. MR HATTINGH And then the two came to Soweto, this is now Messrs Bambo and Olifant? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I would just like to make a correction. Mr Olifant returned at a later stage. I cannot comment on exactly when they returned but I do know that Mr Strongman, Adriano Bambo, George and a Jimmy were the three persons who were placed at Soweto, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So let us refer to the time that the both of them were there. I'm just referring to Messrs Olifant and Bambo at the time when they were attached to Soweto Security Branch. At that stage they were both used as informers as you said? MR COETZEE In the capacity of an informer, yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So there was no difference in rank and status between the two? MR COETZEE No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And it would seem as I've heard Mr Olifant's evidence now, as if you had a better relationship with Mr Bambo than Mr Olifant at that stage? Would that be the wrong impression that I gained? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You had the same relationship with both of them? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And were they both used for the same types of services? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can I briefly hear from you, this was the taking away and fetching of informers? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What else? MR COETZEE The securing of the safe house. MR HATTINGH Was that Mr Olifant's task? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH And what else? MR COETZEE And co-handling level, the picking up and dropping of informers at safe points or the picking up at safe points. MR HATTINGH Was that all? MR COETZEE No, I beg your pardon, I'm still busy with the picking up and dropping off of informers. MR HATTINGH Did they only pick up and drop off informers? They did not handle them by receiving information from them and making notes about this information? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, not in my capacity. MR HATTINGH When you say not in your capacity, what do you mean? MR COETZEE What I mean by that, Chairperson, is that we ourselves did the tasking and the gathering of information and the processing of reports. But they may have on occasion or on various occasions when we were not present. When they were present with a person in the office when his or her report was drawn up, but usually the informers would draw up their reports themselves. MR HATTINGH What did they have to report about? MR COETZEE MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee, I'm still busy dealing with the fetching and dropping off of informers. You say this was just a transport function that they performed? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And we have now heard about the guarding of safe houses. What other tasks did they have? MR COETZEE Supportive information roles where it was necessary, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What is a supportive information role? MR COETZEE In that regard, if I may explain it as follows, Chairperson, they were not primarily tasked to infiltrate any organisation or to participate on a permanent basis in any organisational activities in order to withdraw information. Supportive could be that agent A visits suspect B, this person by nature of the information which we want to obtain, may accompany him under cover in order to be part of it or whether to strengthen his credibility or he may drive the vehicle along with an agent and then transporting suspects from point A to point B, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And what other tasks did they perform? MR COETZEE And as we have pointed out in our amnesty application, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Please tell us, we don't have your amnesty application before us. MR COETZEE At the instances where we were involved in certain incidents and in this case, such as the Adriano Bambo case, the kidnapping and unlawful detention of Simelane, the securing of Simelane. But physically from a co-handling perspective, what I mean by that is he will cook the food, he will give the food, he is present at the place where we are present and brings water and the like, Chairperson, if it is necessary. MR HATTINGH Any other tasks that they had to perform? MR COETZEE I know of one arrest and I do speak under correction, this is however not upon my instruction or this did not take place under my instruction but I have knowledge of an arrest of a trained MK member who on occasion was arrested in Soweto by Adriano Bambo in the Mapetle area upon instruction of a fellow officer. He accompanied the informer, he covered the member under cover and he at that stage, that day, arrested the person, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But those were not part of his normal tasks? MR COETZEE Not in those years, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH In any years? I'm not limiting you to certain years, I want to know what were their tasks, why they were attached to Soweto Security Branch? MR COETZEE Within these guidelines, Chairperson, but because we were a covert unit we did not physically participate in arrest actions, Chairperson. His handling and his usage was on a continual basis and was managed from a covert point of view, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I am afraid I do not understand what you mean by that. Can you tell us in simple Afrikaans what did he have to do? MR COETZEE Handling, co-handling, guarding safe houses where we trained agents, cooking food, supplying food and where he had to guard people, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And is that the sum total of his tasks within that framework? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And was that also the sum total of Mr Olifant's tasks? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, I believe so. I broke with them later but I believe it was within those guidelines. MR HATTINGH But now I'm referring to time that you worked with them, as long as you were involved with them, were those their tasks? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And somewhere in the evidence, your evidence-in-chief, you said that they were not used operationally or words to that effect? I cannot find the note right now but is that a correct version of your evidence? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What do you mean by used operationally? MR COETZEE I mean that they were not placed as agents in a political group or organisation whose activities we were monitoring during those years. MR HATTINGH Very well. Were they used in any other manner that you described now operationally? MR COETZEE I've already said, Chairperson, supportive and I think of visits across the border where they dropped off informers there and went for appointments at rendezvous points like with other black co-handlers and the pointing out of houses across the border or in Soweto, Chairperson, that were identified by informers in terms of whether there were criminal activities or interest of security, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee, here in your evidence-in-chief you mentioned that during certain years you were guilty of irregular activities for which you have applied for amnesty? MR HATTINGH Without going into any detail, what was the nature of these activities that you applied for amnesty? Did it entail the killing of persons across the border? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Not in the country? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You never killed a person in the country? MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH Attacks on targets like buildings or vehicles, attacks which were not directed at people, were you involved in those? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And what was the nature of those attacks? MR COETZEE It was explosions Chairperson and arson on one occasion, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And was either Mr Olifant or Mr Bambo involved in these internal activities? MR COETZEE I have already mentioned Mr Bambo in the '82/'83 activities where I know he was involved and I identified all the other members according to the incidents for which I have applied who were involved in the time thereafter but I would like to say, Chairperson, that many of these acts were acts which had to be committed by agents who at that stage received instructions from ANC/MK structures outside the country and these were all credible activities under my command and control, Chairperson, with the exception of Ipalageng, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The Exhibit A you read that, is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH With regard to Mr Olifant, I only dealt with the incidents where Mr Bambo's name is mentioned but there are a myriad of other events that Mr Olifant mentions in this statement, is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Whereby he involves you and Mr Pretorius? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And these entail incidents of explosions, arson and so forth here in the Republic of South Africa? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Whereby he says that he himself was involved in the execution of these tasks? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So did he also participate in such criminal activities with regard to Mr Olifant to which he refers to in some of the instances? MR COETZEE I can confirm that he was present, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So why did you have him participate in such unlawful activities if this was not incorporated in his tasks that you had just now comprehensively explained to us? MR COETZEE Chairperson, that is the part that I had said. Supportive to such activities which were executed upon instructions of ANC in the outside where to add to that, it's where an agent had infiltrated, was trained militarily and was put in possession of arms and explosives and these arms and explosives at the end of the day found its way back to the R.S.A. and an agent was tasked with regard to a target in the country and these acts were committed as credibility activities as it is put to us by our management and executed, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What do you mean by an agent? What is an agent as you would describe it? MR COETZEE I would put it as follows, Chairperson, it is a person who - the groups who infiltrated the old targets, the groups, in order to gain information and in order to place themselves amongst them more on a permanent basis in order to monitor their daily activities. MR HATTINGH So its an informer who operates behind enemy lines? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, an agent already has the status that he is already a deeply penetrated person, there's continuity with regard to his involvement in the group. It is not, if I may state it as such, Chairperson, it's not a come and go person. ADV SANDI Yes but just for clarity, would this person hold a rank for example? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, later Soweto became part of the R.S. programme. MR HATTINGH Did you ever give people like Mr Olifant instructions who would launch attacks on houses with the assistance of handgrenades? MR COETZEE Chairperson, those incidents to which I refer to, the R.S. members or the agents or the informers were infiltrated in MK structures across the border and these instructions were credibility instructions which were performed and which had been cleared out with the command structure. MR HATTINGH But did you give you instruction? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Just hold on a minute. I am still asking my question. Did you instruct him to launch handgrenade attacks within South Africa? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And he did this? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, as part of a group. MR HATTINGH Not only he but other persons who were in the same position as Mr Olifant and Bambo found themselves? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So they were operationally used to attack certain targets with the assistance of explosive devices like handgrenades within the Republic? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And if this information came out later this could have led to great embarrassment for the Security Forces, is that not so? MR COETZEE I shall concede, yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And was Mr Bambo also not used in the same manner? MR COETZEE Chairperson, yes. I had already, with the incident where he was involved, in my amnesty application I described his involvement. MR HATTINGH There's one incident, I'm trying to find it, where mines had to be placed at certain targets. Is that not so? MR COETZEE There is an incidence, Chairperson, but I was not present. MR HATTINGH The intention was that those mines, to put it this way, these mines were doctored and that they would explode as soon as the detonator is put into effect? MR COETZEE Negative, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Somewhere in his statement he mentions a case where three persons had to be killed in this manner. One land mine exploded and the person was killed and the other two, he says because they were not killed by the land mines they had to be shot? MR COETZEE Chairperson, that is not me. MR HATTINGH You do not know about that incident? MR COETZEE No I do not. It has already served before the Committee, Chairperson, with the involved persons who knew about the incident or who were involved in the incident. MR HATTINGH Was Mr Pretorius involved there? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So it was your branch's operation? MR COETZEE I had already left Soweto at that stage, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So after you had left there some of these persons like Mr Bambo and Mr Olifant were used for such types of attacks as I have described just now, is that not so? MR COETZEE Not in my instance, he was not involved there. MR HATTINGH But you know of this operation? MR COETZEE I heard for the first time of this operation with the amnesty applications and this operation for the first time came to my attention despite my relationship with Col Pretorius, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Let me try to shorten this line of examination. Are there any incidents which I explained in Exhibit A whereby Mr Olifant involves you that you dispute? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Would you please indicate those to us? MR COETZEE The hostel incident, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is that the attack that was launched on the hostel with a limpet mine? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You say you were not involved there? MR COETZEE No, I was not present there, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Never mind your presence, did you know about this? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, I would have applied for it. MR HATTINGH You also did not give instruction that this be executed? Did anyone attached to your unit give such an instruction? MR COETZEE I do not know, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did this take place while you were attached to Soweto? MR COETZEE I do not have any knowledge about this incident, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you know what we are talking about now? MR COETZEE Yes, I think Col Pretorius would be able to comment on this specific instance. MR HATTINGH Are you trying to tell us that if it did take place it took place after you left Soweto? MR COETZEE Chairperson, no. What I wanted to say was that they had contact with Col de Jager and Col Pretorius in order to assist them to clear out this incident because they could not find any evidence of such an incident, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And do you know whether later evidence was found with regard to this incident? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So this is the first incident that you are disputing in Exhibit A? Are there any others? MR COETZEE And then the incident where he refers to Pantso, he was not present, Bambo was not present, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But with Pantso, I think the Pantso matter they said that they only went in and did reconnaissance and came back and then Mr de Kock and some of your members went in and did the operation? MR COETZEE The real operation was only undertaken under the instruction of Col de Kock and we were supportive of his unit under instruction from head office. But these people did not participate in it. MR HATTINGH Did they not do a reconnaissance beforehand? MR COETZEE I would like to put it as such, Chairperson, all information was followed up, all the houses were on a continual basis pointed out, houses were also pointed out under the supervision of other co-handlers, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Let us try to cut this short. Was Mr Bambo or Mr Olifant sent in for reconnaissance with the intention of killing Mr Pantso? MR COETZEE The informer may have pointed out the house to them, I do not deny that, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And if that had happened and there was later an attack on this house whereby people were killed then those facts would have come to the knowledge of Messrs Olifant and Bambo, is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes, at the office, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then they would have added two and two together and said right, we know, we know why we had to go and reconnoitre that house. This attack was launched on that house, is that not so? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And this could have caused embarrassment to you if that information came to light? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is there anything else in this statement which you would like to dispute the correctness of? MR COETZEE I was not present at Jabulani but I know about this incident. MR HATTINGH Which one do you refer to? MR COETZEE That is the Jabulani Stadium in Soweto, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH On which page is this? MR COETZEE Page 2, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Which paragraph? MR COETZEE Paragraph 2. MR HATTINGH They are not numbered. Which one? MR COETZEE The second paragraph, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was a limpet mine placed at the stadium. MR COETZEE I cannot comment on what was placed there, I can just confirm that that operation was initiated by Security Branch Soweto with the involvement of the members to which I have referred in my application as well as Col Pretorius and that the incident had taken place. They refer to mines, I cannot comment on what type of mine was exactly used. MR HATTINGH Soweto was your area, you were entrusted with whatever happened on security level there? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And specifically if there was an explosion at a stadium like this shortly before Soweto Day then you would have known of it? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So are you saying that it was indeed your branch's operation? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, that I know of the operation but I was not present at the stadium itself. MR HATTINGH I accept that but when you say that you know of it, did you participate in the planning thereof? MR COETZEE I think so, Chairperson. I state that in my application to a lesser or more or less extent I participated in the planning. MR HATTINGH Do I understand you correctly that the names of the persons mentioned here in the second paragraph on page 2, those names are not correct, the names that you want to align with this operation? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on Bambo's participance in this operation. MR HATTINGH So you cannot deny whether he was involved there? MR COETZEE I would have known if he was involved because Special Forces was involved here who were actually the executioners of this particular operation, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And what of Mr Olifant, could he have been involved in there? MR COETZEE Yes, yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH If he was involved there why couldn't Mr Bambo not be involved there? MR COETZEE Because Mr Olifant worked directly under Col Anton and I would assume that Co. Anton would that evening have taken along with him some of his own people, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who was Gustav? MR COETZEE He was a Col van Greunen. MR HATTINGH Very well. But here Mr Olifant says that he and Mr Bambo was there. He incriminates himself with an act that was back then classified as an act of terrorism for which he could be sentenced to life or even be sentenced to death? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you think of a reason why he would say he was involved in there if he was not? MR COETZEE I cannot comment Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And now he incriminates the person who was closer to his heart than a brother to him? Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well. While we are still on this page what do you say about his allegations with regard to possible involvement in the Ribeiro murders? MR COETZEE I deny that in totality Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you deny that a vehicle was standing there and you were very angry with Mr Pretorius because he allowed Norval to leave the vehicle there? MR COETZEE Yes I deny that, I was aware of the vehicle but I was unaware, Chairperson, which role Special Forces that vehicle for. MR WAGENER Chairperson sorry, if I may come in here but I have to now start objecting to this questioning. I have the subpoena before me. This witness has been subpoenaed to answer questions in relation to his knowledge of the deceased, Adriano Bambo and his knowledge of his death and my submission is that the cross-examination now should not be allowed, it goes far beyond the ambits of what we're here for. MR HATTINGH Yes Chairperson, that is correct and I'm aware of the ruling of Judge Pillay but we have now to do with the situation of evidence. This witness says "if I'd been involved in such an incident, I would have..." - we're talking about the killing of Mr Bambo. "Had I been involved in his killing I would have applied for amnesty." Now I would submit, Chairperson, without going into too much detail about the other incidents but I should be entitled to try and demonstrate to the Committee that this witness had been involved in other incidents for which he did not apply for amnesty. That is the one leg of my argument. The other leg of my argument is, Chairperson, that he says, the reason why he says Mr Bambo was not a danger for them is because he wasn't operationally employed and I'm just trying to demonstrate to you that he was in fact operationally employed and this goes to credibility, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I suppose before you respond, Mr Wagener, that is saying you are somewhat drifting away when you refer to the Ribeiro murder? MR HATTINGH Well what I'm trying to demonstrate through the Ribeiro matter, Chairperson, I asked the witness to tell us which incidents described by Mr Olifant in this statement, he disagrees with. Well perhaps I should have given him an opportunity to come to the Ribeiros before I started dealing with it. He was still busy telling me. CHAIRPERSON But my recollection doesn't say that you dealt with that, with Mr Olifant as well? MR HATTINGH No, I didn't deal with that with Mr Olifant because with Mr Olifant I merely tried to demonstrate that Mr Bambo was involved in certain incidents Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any response Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Chairperson, yes. I heard the question of Mr Hattingh about the statement of Olifant. I assumed, maybe wrongly then, that reference is made to the incidents Mr Hattingh referred to in cross-examining Olifant where Strongman was involved in. I never understood it that Mr Coetzee must now go through this whole 34 typed pages saying what is right, what is wrong. That's not we're here for. If that is in fact the drift of the question then so much the more I say it is totally relevant, it is totally outside the ambit of the subpoena and it should, even more so, not be allowed by you because that was why I raised the issue before the start of this hearing. What are we here for? For what must these people be prepared for, to come and do what? They have to answer the questions that I've read to now in the subpoena and therefore I still object to his line of questioning, that the Ribeiro murder has got absolutely nothing to do with Strongman or Mr Coetzee or what we're here for. CHAIRPERSON What do you say before I come back to you, what do you say to his response that Mr Coetzee says Mr Bambo, the late Mr Bambo, was not an operational man and what he wants to find out from Mr Coetzee in respect of incidents like I suppose without him having said so and I'll stand to correction. For instance the amphitheatre in Jabulani, where he is drawn in by Mr Olifant and he says he wasn't there and he says but this Olifant says "I was there and Adriano was there" and he says "yes, Olifant could have been there, I don't know about Adriano."? MR WAGENER Chairperson, I did not object to any questioning at that time. I object to questioning that incidents in this statement where no mention is made of Strongman and specifically the last question regarding the Ribeiro issue, that was when I objected. CHAIRPERSON I wouldn't allow that one, Mr Hattingh. Of the Ribeiro, I won't allow that one. MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee, may I then put it to you that it would seem from the statement and from the concessions that you have made thus far that persons like Mr Olifant had indeed acted operationally while they were attached to the Soweto Security Branch? MR COETZEE Supportive, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Not only supportive but here they say that they threw handgrenades? MR COETZEE Chairperson, may I just state it clearly, I do not believe they threw the handgrenades, it was supposed to be the covering agent who had to commit the act upon instruction of the ANC MK structures under whose command he had to throw that handgrenade. These persons were sent with him in order to assist to control the situation. These handgrenades were not aimed at persons, these handgrenades were for the purposes of credibility actions. MR HATTINGH But you were not there when the handgrenades were used or when the limpet mines were used? MR COETZEE On occasion I was involved specifically and that was at Central Western Jababu, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who handled the explosive devices there? MR COETZEE Myself Chairperson, Col Pretorius and Col de Jager. It was tied up, we tied the rope to it and we pulled the rope ourselves. The R.S. member who received the instruction from Botswana was present. There were also other co-handlers who were present, I cannot recall all their names. MR HATTINGH Could it have been Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Negative because we were present there ourselves. I recall Selemolela specifically, Chairperson, because he was the co-handler and I recall RS290, that was the man who received instructions from outside and neither Mr Olifant nor Mr Bambo was part of those structures, or members of the force who succeeded in infiltrating an MK structure in Botswana. MR HATTINGH But in those instances where they say that they used handgrenades, Mr Olifant in particular, where you were not present, you cannot deny that? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can I just interrupt myself? Vlakfontein, what was that? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, that was just an area in the West Rand side close to mines where a safe house was rented, the place is still standing and it's still known today as Vlakfontein. It's close to the Lerotong Hospital. MR HATTINGH Was that the safe house that also came up in the Goldstone Commission when certain revelations were made concerning safe houses used by police and was under the command of Col Potgieter? MR COETZEE Negative. I do not know anything about it. MR HATTINGH Very well. Mr Coetzee, let us deal with your evidence in this regard or with regard to this specific matter. At a certain stage Mr Bambo commits a crime, he is sentenced, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH And you say that you did not go and visit him or paid any attention to him while he was in prison? MR COETZEE No, not at all. MR HATTINGH Did you ask Mr Olifant to go to him and to tell him in jail that if he comes out of jail there will be a job for him? MR COETZEE What instance is this? MR HATTINGH That is the first sentence that he served. MR COETZEE Not at all. MR HATTINGH Were you aware of the fact that Mr Olifant visited him in jail? MR COETZEE I do confirm it. MR HATTINGH And that he could report back to you about these visits? MR COETZEE I would not say that he reported back but he did mention now and again that he did go and visit him. MR HATTINGH At that stage Mr Bambo had information as you conceded could have led to embarrassment for the Security Branch? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you not worried about this that he could have talked about it? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Why not? MR COETZEE Because we applied him on an operational level once again. MR HATTINGH But now this is before you applied him on an operational level. He is in prison, how do you know he is not going to talk? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I'm talking about the person which we used in this incident who was referred to us and who was then later applied on an operational level. MR HATTINGH But what person, who is this person? MR COETZEE Simelane, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I am asking you if you were not worried, that's Mr Bambo, while he was in prison could have disclosed information about for example the Simelane incident? MR COETZEE It's possible, yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I'm not asking you if it's possible, I'm asking you if he was worried about such a possibility. MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH Why not? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, because that was just part of an operation. A person was not killed in this operation. MR HATTINGH But if Mr Bambo, while he is in prison, was asked to talk to a reporter or to a person and say look, I was involved in the abduction of a person, I'm working for the Security Police and we detained this person for a while, it would have led to embarrassment? MR COETZEE Yes, I would agree with that. MR HATTINGH Well why were you not worried that such a thing could happen? MR COETZEE Maybe I had a false trust in this person. MR HATTINGH You took no steps at all to prevent such an event? MR COETZEE No, I didn't. MR HATTINGH Well this person now committed robbery with the assistance of a police weapon, that I understood you correctly that he took from the Soweto Police Station or that he stole it from the offices? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH So he did not only rob somebody else of a police weapon but he also stole this weapon from the Police station while he was in a position of trust in the Police? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was this weapon found? MR COETZEE I think so yes. MR HATTINGH Was it found or not? MR COETZEE Yes it was found. I'm talking under correction, I did not investigate the case. I was not investigative officer. MR HATTINGH Very well. Now he is serving his sentence and now he is once again approached by Brig van Rensburg? MR COETZEE Can I just explain Brig van Rensburg's role? On a continual basis they went to Brig van Rensburg with complaints in Pretoria where we then received instructions to assist them then with the a, b or c of their complaints. Where Roelf van Rensburg, that is the brigadier to which I'm referring to, where he fits in the picture is, I cannot really recall. MR HATTINGH But you are now once again approached by him, that is my question? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH With the request that you must once again employ Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Yes, I think it was an instruction at that stage. MR HATTINGH Was it not very strange that a person who had stolen a Police weapon and then committed a serious crime like a robbery was sent to jail and then once again there's an instruction from Van Rensburg to employ this person once again? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH Do you know why he issued such an instruction? MR COETZEE No. I would just like to comment here. At that stage I was already aware of the fact that these people were involved in previous incidents under the command of Capt Dirk Coetzee before they were sent to Namibia. I cannot comment on all these incidents in which they were involved in during the command of Dirk Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Was Mr Bambo one of these people? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH And what you are saying now and it sounds as if you believed that Mr Bambo was involved in operations that could have created an embarrassment for the Police? MR COETZEE I did not know what these operations were about but this was all hearsay that they were involved and that they worked under the command of Dirk Coetzee. MR HATTINGH And it was therefore better to get him back into the system so that you can then control them. Was that the impression that you got? MR COETZEE I took him back because it was an instruction to the Soweto Branch. MR HATTINGH He did not have special capabilities that made him very valuable? MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH If it was your decision would you have taken him in? MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH Do you mean yes he would not have taken him in? MR COETZEE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Well, now you do employ him again and this is now an instruction from a senior officer? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then these irregularities now took place that you mentioned in your evidence? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Were these serious irregularities? MR COETZEE If I can put it this way, Chairperson, at that stage we were busy to build quite a good team to establish in the East Rand, to work in the Criminal Intelligence infrastructure and to strengthen this infrastructure and I had various people who worked with me and various handlers who were withdrawn from the field and the result was that we had enough manpower and his actions discredited him and I stopped his services and suspended him. MR HATTINGH Before you did this, did you contact Brig van Rensburg? MR COETZEE I never discussed it with Brig van Rensburg concerning this man's services. The instructions just came from him. MR HATTINGH But now after you executed this instruction, now you suspend him without going to Brig van Rensburg and say "look Brigadier, you gave me the instruction to use this person but I cannot do it any more because of this and that reason."? MR COETZEE Yes, well I do not know where the Brigadier was at that stage. It was quite a few years later. MR HATTINGH But with anybody at head office because the instruction to take him or to employ him came from head office? MR COETZEE It was from Van Rensburg from head office, yes. MR HATTINGH But now, apart from the fact that it came from head office, you're now suspend him without discussing it with head office? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And these irregularities in which he was involved in, did you give him a chance, did you warn him to stop otherwise he'll be suspended etc, or did you just decide on a certain day, look he is not suitable for application in the field any more? MR COETZEE I would also like to say Mr Chairperson that there were various others who were also suspended during that time. MR HATTINGH How did he accept this suspension? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that I just dropped him off and told him that he is not allowed in the safe house any more. I dropped him off in Eldorado Park. MR HATTINGH Did he live there? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH So you sent somebody or did you take him yourself? MR COETZEE He was dropped off, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You sent somebody to drop him off and tell him you do not come to the safe house any more? MR COETZEE At that stage he was aware of the fact and I did tell him at that stage that he was suspended. MR HATTINGH And what was his reaction? MR COETZEE He did not comment on it. MR HATTINGH But could you see if he was happy or unhappy about it? MR COETZEE I think he knew or if I can make an inference here, he just kept quiet, he did not make any comments. MR HATTINGH Very well, now he is gone and how long afterwards do you know or did you get to know that he was involved in crime? MR COETZEE I cannot put a date to it but I heard from co-handlers that they saw him in vehicles with people, every day in a different vehicle. They were luxury vehicles and it was well known that this person was quite good with the repair of vehicles and everything related to this and they also told me that they must go and look and to go and see because this person is involved in the theft of vehicles. This is now against the background of his past and it was very clear that he is somewhere involved or busy getting a different income, that he's busy with crime and this is giving him a different income. MR HATTINGH So he did not move in the terrain of your branch, it was more to do with the theft of vehicles and the department that dealt with that? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH And when you now received this information that this person was allegedly involved in these actions, did you not convey this information to other colleagues in the department that can deal with this? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, it was not substantiated, there were co-handlers who were tasked to get more information concerning this. MR HATTINGH And did they get more information? MR COETZEE Yes, more or less on his movements. MR HATTINGH But information that indicated that he was busy with criminal activities? MR COETZEE I could not attach certain crime or groups to him at that stage. MR HATTINGH Why did this concern you, these actions? MR COETZEE It concerned me because I knew his background, he was a member of our office and he's an embarrassment. To get substance or to get a statement of these allegations I contacted Olifant and I told him I would like to see this person, I've got a few questions to ask him. MR HATTINGH Because he became an embarrassment for the Police or your branch? MR COETZEE Embarrassment yes, but it's also about the criminal aspect of allegations of his involvement in criminal activities and at that stage, although there was no substance to this and from the hearing it does seem that he was involved in it but during that time without me knowing it, was involved in murder and robberies. MR HATTINGH But units like murder and robbery, were they not better equipped to investigate such actions and to then confirm the fact that he may be guilty of such offences? MR COETZEE I would say yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Then why do you not then convey these suspicions to the relevant departments? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, we were a covert branch. I was never in direct contact with Murder and Robbery Units or vehicle theft departments or fraud departments. Commanders who worked on a provincial level managed this and handled this. MR HATTINGH Where were the offices of the Soweto Branch? MR COETZEE It was in Protea. MR HATTINGH Protea is a building where there were various units of the Police? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Amongst others murder and robbery? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Normal crime detection units? There's also an officer's canteen where officers from all the branches of the Police came together? MR COETZEE Yes I believe so, I was never in the canteen, not once in my whole life. MR HATTINGH But for you to convey this message to Murder and Robbery you could have picked up a phone, made a call or you could have walked to the one side of the building to the other side of the building and inform the people? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I would just like to rectify this, I was in the East Rand, I was in a safe house in the Mid Rand area. I did not go to any office at that stage, I was part of the Intelligence Service and the command structure came to visit us during the day and after hours they would come to the safe house with our normal operational duties and relevant cases and to address these issues. We were withdrawn from the public eye because of the activities of these units. MR HATTINGH So much so, that's why you could have given it to somebody else rather than tasking your own people to observe him to ensure or to find out if he was busy with crime? MR COETZEE Yes on a short term basis I did task my own people. MR HATTINGH I will put to you that you were worried about the fact that this person could have been arrested and if he was arrested he could have then disclosed his involvement in the Security Branch activities and that is why you wanted to know what he was busy with. Is that not true? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, if I can put it in this way there was no substance that he was busy with these activities, it was only an allegation. But knowing that this person was involved in criminal activities in the past, I requested Mr Olifant to make contact, to arrange for a meeting to then question him and to then warn him that he will get no assistance from us if he was involved in any criminal activities. I think that was the main idea. MR HATTINGH What would make you think that he would come to you for assistance when he was arrested? MR COETZEE I was thinking about what would happen if something like this happened where they were sent to Pretoria and then came back to our office. MR HATTINGH But did Mr Bambo with his first arrest with his hearing, his sentencing and when he served the sentence out in the prison, did he ever come to you for assistance? MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH Then what made you think that he would come to you at a later stage? MR COETZEE If I recall correctly the brigadier was contacted. MR HATTINGH But not you? MR COETZEE No, I saw it as my duty as a commander under which this person served to arrange for a meeting and to then warn him that he must look out, that if he's involved in any criminal activities he is standing alone and he will get no assistance from the office. MR HATTINGH I make an inference, I would like you to tell me if this inference is correct concerning all what you just said. You did think that in the process of his first arrest and sentencing that he was in contact with head office and that he asked for assistance, is this a correct inference that I make? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson, I know that head office knew about his arrest and that he was sentenced and that it reached head office either through Mr Manuel or through one of the other people or persons who worked with them. MR HATTINGH Is it just a fact then that after he was released that you got an instruction to again employ him, that now if he was arrested again that he will come for assistance to you? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you wanted to say to him, " look, stop with what you are doing, if you are arrested you will get no assistance" and that is all you wanted to say to him? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR HATTINGH You then tasked Mr Olifant to go and try and convince him to come and talk to you? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And what did Mr Olifant do, what report did he give to you? MR COETZEE He did give feedback to me. MR HATTINGH What was the feedback? MR COETZEE That he did make contact with this person and that the person had my phone numbers. I cannot recall if he told me that this person will contact me or phone me but Mr Olifant was primarily sent this way to attempt to arrange for a meeting. MR HATTINGH But why can you not then recall if ...(intervention) MR COETZEE I cannot recall a date, I do not know if there was a date that he gave when he said he will phone me. I don't know where he found the person if he conveyed the message, in what way and after all these years I cannot recall exactly what Mr Olifant reported back. All that I know is that Mr Olifant exceeded in finding this person to make contact with him and to tell him that I want to see him. Now he does not pitch up. MR HATTINGH What did you do about it? MR COETZEE I had no further contact with him. MR HATTINGH Why not? You now wanted to liaise with him, to warn him and now it is being said that there was an arrangement or there's a possibility that there could be a tentative arrangement of a phone call and now you do nothing? MR COETZEE Yes I did know, I also did not attempt to make any further contact. MR HATTINGH And the question is why not? MR COETZEE Because I went on with my normal work and I left him and if he was involved he would have had to take responsibility for what he did. MR HATTINGH I still do not understand. You instruct a person to go and get him to come and talk to you because you want to talk to him. He does make contact but there's no contact between you and him because of that and now you just leave it hanging in the air? MR COETZEE I would just like to add this, from time to time the black co-handlers also had good contacts and they were again in groups that from time to time came together, they met up with each other. News always reached the office, if I can put it that way but I never attempted or made any further attempts to contact this person. MR HATTINGH What news arrived? MR COETZEE Well, normally the co-handlers who worked in that area would say that they saw Strongman and I met him at that point, either in Soweto or in Eldorado Park and that was more or less on that basis. MR HATTINGH And then once again he told you that he was still driving in luxury vehicles and it seems as if he's involved in vehicle theft? MR COETZEE Yes, that was the allegations that were made. MR HATTINGH And despite that you never arranged for further meetings or contact with them? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How long after this did you hear that he was arrested or didn't you hear about this? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, at a later stage. I think the first time when I heard about his arrest was via Col Anton Pretorius. MR HATTINGH And when was this? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, it was - I'm talking under correction, I think it was late 1990. MR HATTINGH What was the information that was conveyed to you? MR COETZEE The information that I received was that he was arrested and that he's being detained. I did not have all the details and that he was involved in robberies. MR HATTINGH What did you do about it? MR COETZEE I think I reported back to my immediate commander. MR HATTINGH Why did you do that? MR COETZEE In a normal discussion it came up. MR HATTINGH Just as part of a discussion? MR COETZEE Well, on a regular basis we discussed after hours, in safe houses, we discussed members, incidents, people, operational activities and I heard he was arrested by Murder and Robbery unit and also that we did not have in depth knowledge about what happened. MR HATTINGH Now you say this information that you received was in late 1990 ? MR COETZEE Yes, I would say it was late 1990, the beginning of 1991. I'm not quite sure of my dates. MR HATTINGH Very well, but this was during the time when the Harms Commission was announced, is that correct? MR COETZEE I do not carry any knowledge of the Harms Commission, I was not involved in that. MR HATTINGH I see Mr Wagener is shaking his head. I cannot recall when the Harms Commission started. He says that the Harms Commission started in February 1990 and if my recollection is correct it was in August when it was concluded, I think. Mr Wagener agreed there. ADV SANDI I think that is correct because right now I'm going through the Harms Commission, the report here. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Sandi. I was involved in the Harms Commission, I appeared for the CCB but I have a very bad memory when it comes to dates. Mr Coetzee, if it was then late 1990, beginning of 1991, then it was just shortly after the revelations that were made public by the Harms Commission? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then Judge Harms issued a report that supported the Police and if a person would then now jump out with similar allegations, that Nofomela and Coetzee made of Police involvement in criminal activities then it would have been a very big embarrassment? MR COETZEE I believe so, yes. MR HATTINGH And were you not now worried that here is now a person who had such information, he is now arrested, is there not a possibility that he will talk like Nofomela did? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson yes, that possibility did exist. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Hattingh, if I can just ask here? But Mr Coetzee, the existence of these safe houses, was that known to Strongman? Didn't he know about these safe houses? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Yes now logically if knew about such houses and he spoke about them, surely there would have been a document of one kind or the other to the establishment? MR COETZEE The possibility did exist, yes. ADV SANDI Yes but isn't it also so that even if you spoke about hearsay, let's suppose he had a conversation with Mr Olifant who referred to him as something more than a brother? If he had heard a conversation with Mr Olifant, Mr Olifant tells him that look, I was involved in such and such an operation at such and such a place. Now if Strongman talks about that surely there would be some kind of harm to the Police, surely? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson, that is the reason why we initially suspended him because of these undisciplined operational actions. You will see in various presentations people were always transported on the back seat of a vehicle and sometimes covered with a blanket. Even if they knew about this safe house there was to an extent in which you could save your operational management and the safe house. MR HATTINGH The fact that you suspended this person does not solve the problem, it could aggravate it, he now feels possible malice? MR COETZEE It's possible. MR HATTINGH So did you do anything to try and prevent Mr Bambo from talking about operations of the Security Branch or where he was involved in or about operations that he had knowledge about, about safe houses etc? MR COETZEE Not at all. MR HATTINGH A while ago I talked about safe houses of Police where you gathered and you will recall that one Sunday paper reported or made revelations about three safe houses in the area of Vanderbijlpark and Soweto and it was to such an extent that the Goldstone Commission launched an independent investigation for the reason behind these safe houses. Can you recall that? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And these were safe houses in which Col Potgieter was involved in? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And it was something that caused an uproar in the media? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And in the same way a revelation made by Mr Bambo about the existence of such safe houses would also have created an uproar if he had disclosed something like this? MR COETZEE It could have been, Mr Chairperson, but at that stage the ANC or the party on the other side of the street was aware of the modus operandi of the Intelligence Services in South Africa. MR HATTINGH But you still kept the safe houses as secret as possible? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson, but at a later stage we did move away from that safe house. MR HATTINGH No, but while they existed. You just said if agents were taken there they were place on the back seat and they were covered so that they cannot see how they get there and then maybe at a later stage identify or make known this place? MR COETZEE In the day it was the case but in the evenings I believe a lot of them sat up straight and a lot of them knew where it was. MR HATTINGH Let us not split hairs. This was done to prevent people from disclosing where the safe houses were? MR COETZEE Yes Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you did not want to disclose this? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH And Mr Bambo knew about it? MR COETZEE Yes. ADV SANDI Can I take it that in that sort of scenario you have given, you didn't want it to be known how you went about contacting your informers, taking them from one point to the other? Did you? You didn't want that to be known? MR COETZEE That is so, Chairperson. ADV SANDI And didn't he know about that? He knew about that from what you said? MR COETZEE Yes he knew about that, Chairperson, but what could we do under those circumstances? He as I have said earlier was not the only one whose services was suspended from time to time, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH We have now heard in the Harms Commission when Mr Nofomela was on the point of being executed for a murder he had committed, then he went to speak to the media and revealed the existence of Vlakplaas and everything that went with that, not so? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So now you had an example of a person who when he found himself in trouble tried to get himself out of trouble by disclosing information which he had available to him? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And would it not have been better for you to when you heard that Mr Bambo was involved in criminal activities which may lead to his arrest in order to get him back so that you could control him? MR COETZEE I cannot recall Chairperson, I may be mistaken, but I cannot recall an instance where I tried to bring him back. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that you tried to? MR COETZEE I would have remembered and I believed that the appointment of Mr Olifant I would have gone myself because I knew where to find him, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How did you know where to find him? MR COETZEE Because they stayed in a place in Eldorado Park which was known to us where we always picked them up and dropped them off when there was no transport available to them or when Mr Bambo was off duty or when somebody else had to perform services after hours at the safe houses. MR HATTINGH But I am now referring to the time when you suspended him, did you know when to find him then? MR COETZEE I would not say which specific house but I believed that if I made some enquiries I would have been able to find him by means of the home of his girlfriend, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you asked Mr Olifant to connect with him? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH To warn him or to arrange with an appointment with you? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And I wish to put it to you when we look at Mr Bambo's statement, I think it was in Volume 2 - not Mr Bambo, Mr Olifant's statement, Volume 2 on page 11 it starts, paragraph 4 thereof he says "Coetzee informed me about the manner and told me that I had to find Strongman Adriano Bambo and tell him that I know what he is involved in and he should cease all his activities and he should not be concerned and that I had to bring him back to Coetzee so that they could talk." What do you say about that statement? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I indeed as I had said earlier asked Mr Olifant to establish contact with Bambo and tell him that I wanted to see him. In general I will agree with what he says in paragraph 4 but definitely not at that stage with regard to work, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that you told him that he must tell Mr Bambo that he should not be concerned? MR COETZEE No, I would not have said that because why would I have told him not to be concerned, Chairperson? MR HATTINGH Do not be concerned, if you are arrested we shall look after you? MR COETZEE Negative Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Or if you are on the run from the law, come to me we will take care of you? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So that you could control him? MR COETZEE No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What do you say about the last sentence in paragraph 4? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, I deny that, that I was somewhere involved with him in a conversation of which the purpose was that he would have told things which we were involved with if he was caught, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The statement was made in Braamfontein on the 1st July 1996, do you see that? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And a statement to Mr Liesk which is Exhibit A, he says that he was contacted with the objective of applying for amnesty? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH May I just ask you then, with regard to page 6 of Exhibit A, the paragraph which you have already dealt with ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I see you are getting into another matter. Could we take short adjournment here and over and above that I've run out of writing pad, I've nothing. Also to give an opportunity to get some writing pad. MR HATTINGH Certainly Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we will take 15 minutes break. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON I think, Mr Coetzee, you also caught your breath? I know two hours is a long time for anybody to testify and all that. You people would from time to time need a break, but you are still under your former oath. WILLEM HELM JOHANNES COETZEE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hattingh, you may proceed. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairperson, I understood from one of my colleagues, I forget which one, that you considered the possibility of allowing Mr Jonker to cross-examine before I continue with my cross-examination. I doubt whether I'm going to finish in 20 minutes time, Chairperson. I believe Mr Jonker has a problem tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON He indicated a problem tomorrow, that he was going to send somebody for the others. Would I be correct Mr Jonker? MR JONKER Chairperson, I'll actually try to make arrangements to be here myself tomorrow. I just have a problem early in the morning. I'm quite sure I'll be here round about 10 o'clock. I don't want to delay the Commission for half an hour. There's a possibility that I can cross-examine or finish cross-examination of this witness. I'm quite sure Mr Hattingh will also cross-examine the next witness also for two hours so by the time I'm here ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, he hasn't made that indication. MR JONKER But I'm quite sure that Mr Hattingh will be quite lengthy with Mr Pretorius. By the time I'm here tomorrow I'm quite sure that Mr Pretorius wouldn't even have started to testify. CHAIRPERSON I don't want us to intimidate our witnesses. Let's see, take it up from there tomorrow but I would indulge you and ask Mr Hattingh that please can we interrupt your cross-examination now and give Mr Jonker an opportunity? MR HATTINGH I have no objection to that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, I apologise to you that we are running into problems that Mr Jonker won't be here timeously tomorrow, that I would give him an opportunity to cross-examine you. Do you follow that? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any objection Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER No, not at all Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR WAGENER Except either alternative I can always make sure that Mr Coetzee will stay in attendance even after his cross-examination is finished, if that would suit Mr Jonker better but now is no objection. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll rather take it this way. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH STANDS OVER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Coetzee, for completeness would you please study your statement, page 7? The period 1987 until 1st October 1990, where were you stationed at that stage? MR COETZEE Will you repeat the question please? MR JONKER If you have a look at the time period in between (b) and (c) there is a time period of three years. Where were you stationed then? CHAIRPERSON Where are you? I'm lost as well. MR JONKER Chairperson, page 7, bundle 3. There's a period of three years difference between (b) and (c) paragraph 1.2. CHAIRPERSON Oh I see. MR COETZEE Chairperson, I do not feel it's relevant at this stage. Where I was stationed, this was an arrangement from January 1988 up to June or July 1990, I was at Security Head Office and thereafter, Chairperson, I was placed back on the East Rand which was within the two months, the Intelligence Unit, Chairperson. MR JONKER As I understand your evidence correctly, from 1988 to 1989 at that stage Mr Bambo was with you at head office, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, one of the few members. MR JONKER Let us just concentrate on Mr Bambo. And then you went to the East Rand. Did Mr Bambo accompany you there? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER And at which stage was he suspended? MR COETZEE Late in 1989 or in the beginning of 1990, I cannot recall the date, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If we have regard to page 36 of bundle 2, I think this would be of assistance, the SAP69. It appears to me he was arrested sometime in October if my reading is correct of the MR number, 51610/90? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, then it would have been, I stand by my point, it would have been towards the end of 1989 beginning of 1990. I cannot recall the exact date or the month. MR JONKER Sir, for that time period after he was suspended up till the time that he was arrested in October did you have any contact with him? MR COETZEE No contact, Chairperson. No personal contact, Chairperson. MR JONKER And Sir, if I understood Mr Olifant's evidence correctly, during this time he was attached to Mr Pretorius' unit, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER How did it come about that you tasked Mr Olifant who was in another unit, then yours, to find Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE I knew Mr Pretorius and secondly I knew where Mr Olifant lived relative to where Mr Bambo would find him. MR JONKER Sir, you testified - I will jump around a little bit but I will get myself in order soon, you read in a newspaper or you heard when you quoted - I want to quote your words specifically here. After Strongman's death I was informed that he had died and I heard that there had been an action in which he was killed. Those were your specific words, action, can you recall that? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER Can you please tell this Committee what you see as an action? MR COETZEE An action, it could be in a criminal case where he was arrested where he may have been shot and I could use the same word for an arrest, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, would you agree with me and action does not fall out of the sky, it is planned, that is why I used the word? MR COETZEE That is how you interpret it but as used the word action I would associate it with an arrest. To me that is also an action, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, you were attached to security for a long time? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER And there was no spontaneous arrests, would you agree with me, these were planned? MR COETZEE I differ from you, Chairperson. MR JONKER And each arrest was an action? MR COETZEE I beg to differ, there were spontaneous arrests, Chairperson. MR JONKER But the previous question that I asked you, was each arrest an action? MR COETZEE Yes I would say so. MR JONKER So Sir, if you drive with your police car down the road and you were still in the Police Force and there's a man walking down the road with an AK47 and you arrest him, would that be an action? MR COETZEE Yes, I would put it as such, Chairperson, other persons might not agree with me, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think it's a question of semantics? MR JONKER I'll leave it at that, Chairperson. Sir, you testified that Mr Strongman, if I can use the word, he disappointed you after you had taken him into service again? MR COETZEE I would say all persons who fail at some or other stage are to an extent a disappointment for the commander. MR JONKER And you had built up trust in him again and you tried to lead him on the right path after he was apprehended the first time? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, as I have already said that took some time. MR JONKER And then he disappointed you again by going on his own again? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER You decided to get rid of him or fire him as you mentioned it? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, suspending his services. MR JONKER And you say he just kept quiet about it? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, if you were in the Police and the morning when you come to the office and you're told, Mr Coetzee, your services have been suspended you no longer work here, you are fired? MR COETZEE Chairperson, this guy was not a member of the force, there was no contractual agreement with him. MR JONKER Please Sir, let me finish my question. Forget about the contractual accountability at this stage. What would you as a person have felt, there where you were working there. How would you feel if you came to work tomorrow morning and you were told that you no longer work there, would you keep quiet, would you be angry? What would you do? MR COETZEE Depending sometimes on the unit, I would be glad sometimes. MR JONKER That may be so but any person who is fired is not happy. People are not fired and then they are happy about it, would you agree with me? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER And the fact that Mr Bambo kept quiet? It depends from person to person, some persons would say something about it, other persons would keep quiet, would you agree with me? MR COETZEE I interpret his silence as an admittance to some of the accusations against him. MR JONKER So you're telling me he was just happy and he decided he would not discuss it with you? MR COETZEE But other members would have discussed it with me, Chairperson, that was the practice. MR JONKER Sir, in the late '80s, early '90s, before the ANC was unbanned, persons who supplied information to the Police were agents. Can you please tell the Committee what happened to those persons if they were revealed? MR COETZEE They were taken up in the covert structures of the force, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, may I restructure my question? There is an agent, let's call him an impimpi. People hear that he is an impimpi. What happened to that person, what did the people there do with that person? MR COETZEE He could have been killed, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes, there was a big chance that he could be killed? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes Sir, you gave evidence that Mr Bambo worked with many agents, he knew them? MR COETZEE Chairperson, yes. MR JONKER So despite the fact that you have now said that these agents, a time when Mr Bambo's services were suspended, these agents had already been withdrawn from the field. Was that your evidence? MR COETZEE Yes, some of those agents. MR JONKER Oh, some of those agents. So Sir, the other agents, their identities was still the same, it was still Lucas Radebe who supplied information there around the corner? CHAIRPERSON He is captain of Bafana Bafana. MR JONKER Maybe his younger brother, Mr Chairperson. If some of the information leaked out there was the chance that he could be killed despite the fact that his services were used, would you agree with me? MR COETZEE Yes there is that possibility, Chairperson. MR JONKER So despite the fact that it was now safe to suspend Mr Bambo's services, he was still a risk for other person's lives, would you agree with me? MR COETZEE I beg to differ because despite his criminality he also had the characteristics of not revealing people. I can give him credit for that. MR JONKER This does not concur with a person who would not reveal persons who wants to go and point out a weapons cache point, the two do not concur. Would you agree with me? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that because I was not involved. MR JONKER But Sir, you have just testified now that if we look at him as a person, he was not such a person who would talk out, he was a confidante, you could trust him but still he goes and points out weapons and ammunition? MR COETZEE Yes, I cannot comment on that part of him, I refer to agents of whom I know but he had those qualities and I believe that he would not have unnecessarily exposed agents because that would lead the trail directly to him, Chairperson. MR JONKER Would you agree with me Sir that there was nothing preventing him from exposing people? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER Another interesting issue is that you testified earlier that you never knew Gen. Engelbrecht before his appointment at head office, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, that's the truth, Chairperson. MR JONKER Security and Murder and Robbery, sometimes they pursued the same suspects? MR COETZEE Not in my instance, Chairperson. MR JONKER So for the four years that you and Gen. Engelbrecht worked at Soweto you never saw him? MR COETZEE Chairperson, we were not at Soweto physically, we were outside at safe houses. MR JONKER So from 1991 to 1994 you were in a safe house? MR COETZEE All the time from safe houses and from Police flats. My one amnesty application indicates that. MR JONKER So would you agree with me that the only manner in which to ensure that a person would keep quiet was to kill him? MR COETZEE I beg to differ because there are many handlers and occasional agents and R.S. agents whose services were suspended, they are still alive, Chairperson. MR JONKER I hear what you're saying but now we're here at 1990. In 1990 the circumstances were quite different from today. After 1990 half of the Police Force applied for amnesty or I don't know what the percentage is, but here in 1990 this person was a danger, there was no such thing like amnesty and if we have a look at the Police at that stage it appeared that each and every person could take care of himself with regard to this amnesty application but there must have been fears with persons, that they would be incriminated with things for which they did not apply for amnesty, would you agree? MR COETZEE Yes Sir. MR JONKER So therefore the best way to get rid of people or to get them to keep quiet was to simply kill them? MR COETZEE I do not agree because if we have a look at how many members from the Intelligence Services were transferred and who were exposed overtly then all these people had to be killed. MR JONKER Sir, how many persons to whom you refer to now sat in jail on counts of escape and then there were further matters outstanding against him of amongst others armed robbery, attempted escape, murder and armed robber and if I look at these cases I would venture to say that he would be sentenced to approximately 30 years. I do not refer to the minimum sentences that we have today. This man would have been looking at 30 years of incarceration and in 30 years you can think of many things while you were incarcerated, would you agree with me? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER And as Mr Hattingh indicated correctly that Mr Nofomela who turned at the front door of the gallows came to other insights but here a person had - there was no reason why would a person, facing 30 years sentence, turn around and say this is what I did and this is who I am. He could have done so, so nothing could prevent him from doing this? MR COETZEE No. MR JONKER Did it not go through your mind that he could do this at any stage? MR COETZEE I believe it must have bothered me as a person from time to time, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Jonker, I don't know. Through you, of course, Chairperson. I may have misunderstood the witness but it would seem to me that he makes it very clear that there was this possibility that he could start talking and he had not taken any steps to prevent such an eventuality? MR JONKER That is indeed so, Advocate Sandi, but the witness also just answered the last question I asked him, is that he indeed he was worried about that, it went through his mind? But here is a man facing long term imprisonment ...(intervention) ADV SANDI I don't know, just on the last part of his evidence. I thought he said there it may have occurred to him that he would talk. He says he may have thought about it at that stage, the possibility of him talking. I didn't understand him to say he explicitly felt that he was going to talk. He may have thought about it. Isn't that what you said, Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR JONKER Mr Coetzee, would you agree with me that when a person thinks about the incident where someone could talk it's already a train of thought that is placed with you? MR COETZEE That those are the responsibilities that I would have to take thereafter, Chairperson. MR JONKER So there were certain responsibilities that did come up? If you could make it clear what responsibilities? MR COETZEE Sir, you said that if this person talked, what I mean by that, Chairperson, if I may answer, I would have had to - how can I put it, I would have been responsible for those acts or criminal offences and then the legal process would have run its course against me as well. MR JONKER Sir, during this incident in 1990 what was your rank? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I think I was a lieutenant colonel. A lieutenant colonel, yes. MR JONKER Would you agree with me at that stage you were quite young and you had a great career before you in the Police Service, you could have been a director or a general? MR COETZEE Possibly Chairperson. MR JONKER And if an opportunity arose it would have lessened your chances of progress in the service. MR COETZEE I think so, Chairperson. MR JONKER Is that you were thinking? MR COETZEE No Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, you testified that Mr Bambo was seen regularly, this was after he left you, that he was seen regularly in luxury vehicles, driving around in luxury vehicles? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, amongst others what the co-handlers told me was in the Johannesburg area and in the Eldorado Park vicinity. MR JONKER And were your handlers in the Vaal Triangle most of the time? MR COETZEE Over the whole area but most of them lived on the Vaal Rand and they worked on the East Rand, Johannesburg, Soweto area, Chairperson. MR JONKER Mr Coetzee, did you know Capt Koekemoer there on the East Rand? MR COETZEE Can I just put it clearly now, not at all. I only met Capt Koekemoer in 1993 for the first time in my life and I also want to correct it. He was not a member of the Security Branch at that stage. It was a special unit that was put together by head office, that was at Vlakplaas. Not Vlakplaas here, Vlakplaas in the Thokoza area. All these people came from around the country and that was the time in which division BBR decided to remove me from the covert unit and to participate there. It was about investigations with regard to the smuggling with arms to South Africa and the arming of Self-Defence Units in which a myriad of people on a daily basis were murdered and this was about the conflict. I would say to stem the conflict between two warring parties, Chairperson. There for the first time I met this Capt Koekemoer who testified here, for the first time, Chairperson. MR JONKER Captain, did you at any stage attempt or may I restructure the question, did you at any stage contact Mr Bambo's brother? MR COETZEE I would only have worked through Mr Olifant, Chairperson. MR JONKER Are you certain of this? MR COETZEE Yes I'm positive. MR JONKER Sir, here you had a person whom you had suspended, you were very disappointed in him. Did you display any further interest in him? MR COETZEE Not at that stage, Chairperson. MR JONKER What was your fatherly attitude to warn him against criminal activities? MR COETZEE One cannot always warn a person. MR JONKER Mr Bambo had already at that stage, he knew he would be sent to jail, why would you warn him again and send someone to warn him again? MR COETZEE I think it was a time when the Security Branch started looking at the political arena and where he was involved in Criminal Intelligence, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, what did you do with the criminal intelligence that you withdrew? MR COETZEE It was processed on a continual basis and taken up further with the Provincial Head Office. There was an Intelligence manager who gave tasks to persons and accordingly managed it with the different units. May I just add to that, I beg your pardon for interrupting, Chairperson, but for that person, in 1993 I was taken from the covert units to perform that task and function at Vlakplaas in Thokoza, Chairperson. MR JONKER Sir, while you were there on a crime level, did the people of Murder and Robbery supply the information? I think it was the old Crime an Intelligence Service. Did they not receive information from Murder and Robbery and certain specialised units which were supplied to this Intelligence Service. Did you not receive information from units which was followed up? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I would just like to state it clearly here, Intelligence Services, if we refer to Intelligence Services, Crime and Intelligence Services, we were the Intelligence Services within Crime and Intelligence Services. We were the covert unit within Crime and Intelligence Services. There were other units, they had various tasks. MR JONKER But what my question is, you received information, maybe not you specifically, but there was information from Murder and Robbery where it was said that there's dangerous robber on the loose. Mr Bambo tried to find out something about this man. There is intelligence gathered and at a stage action was taken against this robber. Did this happen? MR COETZEE I did not task any other unit in the force outside intelligence service up until 1993, Chairperson. MR JONKER Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JONKER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Jonker. Mr Hattingh, unfortunately we will start with again tomorrow morning. I think it would be an opportune moment for adjournment. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We adjourn until tomorrow at 9 a.m. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS