amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-24 PRETORIA 8 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54424&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200824pt.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. WILLEM HELM JOHANNES COETZEE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (cont) Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Coetzee, you will recall the evidence of Mr Olifant after the certain statements that he makes on page 6 of Exhibit A and especially this section in this one paragraph where he says: "Pretorius told me that if he was caught, he would have to be killed, as he would talk like others were busy doing." Did you have any knowledge of this, that Mr Pretorius made such a statement? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you know if it was a fear that Mr Pretorius expressed? MR COETZEE He never discussed it in such a way with me, no. MR HATTINGH In his statement that he made, his first statement, it seems as if he says that you were also involved in such a discussion. MR COETZEE I deny it Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You never told him or anybody else that you had a certain fear that Mr Bambo could talk about projects in which he was involved in? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, if I can explain it as follows, since '86, '87 there were various members who were arrested abroad and they were at that stage detained and they were then questioned by the ANC's Intelligence Service. Some of these members were involved in these incidents and it was very clear that these members would have disclosed some of these incidents because they were revealed as agents in the years 90's, concerning one of these specific incidents referring to the Pantso case, that person had already been arrested and was detained abroad. That eventually provided the ANC's Intelligence Service with this information and revealed this operation to them and would have identified the people who were involved in this and it was also at that stage a reality. MR HATTINGH Why would you say that? MR COETZEE With the return of these people at a later stage, those who were not, who did not die under detention, they revealed to us and they told us they had no other choice but to recall the specific incidents with which they were confronted, the members involved, the modus operandi of the Security Police in this regard. CHAIRPERSON What you have just said, do you know it as a fact? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH At what stage did these members return and report back? MR COETZEE It was in the beginning of '91 or in the middle of '91. MR HATTINGH So it could have been after this incident had taken place, Mr Bambo's case? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And where Mr Bambo was killed, you did not have information that these facts had been disclosed to the ANC? MR COETZEE No Mr Chairperson, at that stage there were already newspapers reports published by the ANC locally, where they made certain allegations that these agents had their handlers, the operations they were involved in and the operational programmes which we had at that stage and that this was disclosed to them. MR HATTINGH Is your evidence now, Mr Coetzee, that it did not matter to you who said what about your activities at that stage, that is now the stage at which Mr Bambo died? MR COETZEE When he died, Mr Chairperson, I just want to say that at that stage the RS programme in which I was involved, was suspended since February that year and there were various RS members, by saying that I mean members of the Force, they received reports and they were taken into the covert operation system and a lot of them did not want to associate themselves with the police and then found new work in the private sector. What I'm meaning is that the people were spread out, there were various members who were not with us anymore and we had no control over them anymore and our whole set-up and our plans could then be disclosed by them. MR HATTINGH That is not my question. My question is very simple. During the Bambo case, did it not matter to you what members or agents disclosed what about your operations? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I would say no. MR HATTINGH It didn't matter. MR COETZEE It would have mattered yes, it was something that bothered me, yes. MR HATTINGH Of course. You did not want these matters to be disclosed? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And these newspaper reports and allegations that were made in the papers was based on speculations. MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that except for the fact that as I've already mentioned, that they later confirm that they did disclose it. MR HATTINGH But this is now at this stage, this is now August 1990. I'm not quite sure if that was the date of the Harms report, but that is approximately when the Harms Commission was going on, did the police deny all involvement in criminal activities? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Two teams of advocates, both teams with a senior and a junior, they all had to represent the Police in front of the Harms Commission? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes, that is what I understood. MR HATTINGH And then Judge Harms brought out a report that supported the police at that stage? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And now a few months later we have the death of Mr Bambo. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who had information similar to that which you denied in front of the Harms Commission. MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I was not part of the Harms Commission, but I do agree with Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Now Mr Bambo, I'm sorry, Mr Olifant, the evidence concerning the incidents that I deal with with him in Exhibit A, you deny that evidence, is that correct? Not all of them, but some of them? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So for example - if you can just give me a moment. On the first incident, on page 1 of the statement, I think it was put to him that you applied for amnesty for that incident and that you are certain that Bambo was not involved in this incident? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Why are you so sure about this? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, because two RS members were involved in this and I also mention it in my application and I know it was Selamolela, was the co-handler. It was not a human directed operation, it was for credibility of the RS members who had to follow these instructions and of their cross-border MK handlers. MR HATTINGH And was Mr Olifant involved in this incident? MR COETZEE Yes, I already mentioned that he was involved in this incident. I may be mistaken. MR HATTINGH If you may be mistaken then concerning his possible involvement, why cannot you then make a mistake with Mr Bambo's involvement? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I cannot see why such a large amount of members had to be involved in it, while the primary members, the people who had to throw the handgrenades and those who had to be present, they were RS 269's and 265's. Now it seems as if you are saying that because you cannot understand why so many had to be involved, you say Olifant and Bambo were not involved. MR COETZEE I would just like to highlight who the primary agents had to be, or who were supposed to be present. MR HATTINGH So you can recall the primary agents? MR COETZEE Yes, who were involved specifically in this operation. MR HATTINGH But apart from them, there could have been others who could have assisted them? MR COETZEE Yes, then it could have been that without me knowing it that they did accompany them, but I was not aware of Bambo's presence. MR HATTINGH In other words you are not able to tell if Bambo was involved or not? MR COETZEE I cannot confirm it. MR HATTINGH You also cannot deny it, Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well. The second incident you say, or you tell me, this is now the last paragraph in Exhibit A, I do not want to mislead you but my note states that you do not know anything about this incident, is that correct? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This is an incident where limpet mines were placed at certain hostels? MR COETZEE Yes that is according to his evidence. MR HATTINGH That is a very serious allegation. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you say that you do not know anything about this incident? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Would members under your command have done this on own initiative? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I had a Commander above me, that was Col de Jager, then I was not informed about this MR HATTINGH But they say that you and de Jager and Pretorius accompanied them to the hostel. MR COETZEE I was not present and I do not know about this. MR HATTINGH Can you think of a reason why he would incriminate himself in such a serious incident? MR COETZEE It's unknown to me. MR HATTINGH Now the third incident, that is the one that appears on page 2, the second paragraph where he talks about "Another incident also took place during 1986. Coetzee and Pretorius summoned Military Intelligence to come to Johannesburg." What do you say about this incident? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I applied for amnesty for this specific incident, I do know about it. MR HATTINGH Was Mr Bambo involved in it? MR COETZEE I was not there myself, so I cannot say. Col Pretorius will be able to comment about the specific incident and who was present. MR HATTINGH But if my note is correct here, it was put to Mr Olifant that you were involved in this incident, but Mr Bambo was not involved in it. MR COETZEE If you can just repeat that please? MR HATTINGH According to the note that I made, it was put to Mr Olifant and your evidence was that you do know about it, that you were involved in it, but Mr Bambo wasn't. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson, because it was an operation from Col Pretorius. MR HATTINGH What about Mr Olifant? Was he involved in it? MR COETZEE Yes. I said yesterday I believe he was because he worked directly under Col Pretorius' command. MR HATTINGH If he says then that Bambo was there, can you deny it? MR COETZEE I do not believe that Col Pretorius will make use of my team members. MR HATTINGH So you're just making an inference that he wasn't there because you do not think that Mr Pretorius would have made use of one of your team members. MR COETZEE I do not see why they would have involved him. MR HATTINGH Yes, but you do not know if he was involved, or not, you are now speculating. MR COETZEE No, Sir, I would like to put it as follows. Col Pretorius never mentioned to me that that person was involved in such an incident on instructions of him. MR HATTINGH Do you know if Olifant was involved? MR COETZEE Yes, I do, he was involved. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Pretorius tell you this? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Then concerning the fourth incident, my note states that the same counts for the fourth incident, or your evidence is that Bambo was not involved. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Why do you say that? MR COETZEE I can recall the specific incident Mr Chairperson and the fact that we were accompanied by members of the Special Forces, or Units, that we were mainly a white group. MR HATTINGH Mr Olifant, was he present? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on Mr Olifant. It could have been that he was present. I believe with Col Pretorius we will be able to clear this up further. MR HATTINGH But if you cannot if he was there or not, why can you say that you know that Mr Bambo wasn't present? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, from my side on that specific evening, I can recall specifically all the white members and I can recall my role and function in this incident and I can also recall that we were primarily white members who accompanied Special Forces. MR HATTINGH Do you then deny that Mr Olifant was present? MR COETZEE I believe Mr Chairperson that Col Pretorius will be able to assist there. MR HATTINGH I'm not asking what Mr Pretorius can say, I'm asking about your knowledge. You were there. MR COETZEE If I can look at my application to refresh my memory. MR HATTINGH Very well, you are free to do it but before you do it, without looking at your application, do you have any recollection of this? MR COETZEE It could have been that he was there, yes. MR HATTINGH Very well, can you look at your application then please. Did you find it Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE I beg your pardon, Mr Chairperson, we are just looking for the specific incident. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, maybe between myself and Mr Pretorius, these are huge applications. We can try and find it. The moment we have it we will give it, in the meantime if Mr Hattingh wants to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Is the next question dependent on what they find Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH It may very well be, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Let's give him the necessary time. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You don't have to page frantically, take your time. MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I do have my application in front of me. MR HATTINGH Please look at it and look to see if you mention that Mr Olifant was present or not. MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I agree with the applications of Lieut Gen Coetzee and Col de Jager in this regard. I do not notice or see that I mentioned specific people except for my own role and function in this specific incident. MR HATTINGH Very well, you cannot recall what Mr de Jager said in this regard. MR COETZEE If I recall, he only referred to myself and Pretorius and Coetzee as well as the Special Forces members who were all involved in this operation, what the purpose was and that we received instructions to execute this operation. MR HATTINGH Very well. Mr Olifant is certain that Mr Bambo was there. He says that he carried the 25L diesel and that he broke the window to throw this into the building. MR COETZEE Can I just point it out that nobody carried diesel. We were there with a vehicle. It was taken from the vehicle and it was then thrown into the building. I had one of the containers with the diesel as I explained it in my application, that I threw in the building before it was set alight. MR HATTINGH Well you had to carry the diesel from the house to the vehicle, or from the vehicle to the building. MR COETZEE Well we parked right next to the building. MR HATTINGH Are you saying that you threw the diesel in the building from the vehicle? MR COETZEE Yes, the vehicle was close to the building. MR HATTINGH So you never left the vehicle? MR COETZEE Yes, we did. We left the vehicle and we moved towards the building. MR HATTINGH Well you had to carry the diesel even if it was just one or two metres. You're not quite sure if Mr Olifant was there or not? MR COETZEE In my application I do not refer to him. MR HATTINGH But you also say in your application that he wasn't there. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And what your recollection is now presently, is that you're not quite sure if he was there or not? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now I will put it to you just to finalise this matter, if you cannot recall that Mr Olifant was there, then you cannot recall if Mr Bambo was there. Very well. I would just like to go back to a few aspects that I have dealt with in passing. You say that, I now forgot his rank, I think it was Brig van Rensburg. MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH That you were told by him to again appoint Mr Bambo after he was released from prison for the first time. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr Olifant's evidence is that there was a discussion at Headquarters about the question if he must be appointed again or not. MR COETZEE That is possible, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you not recall if there was such a discussion? MR COETZEE I was not in ...(indistinct) myself. I know that I got my instructions via Schoeman, he dealt with this matter. MR HATTINGH But you are quite sure that you were told by Head Office to again Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And when you arrived there, it was a fact and he came to accept his appointment? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can I just refer you to your statement and application in this regard? On page 9 of bundle 3, sorry page 8, beginning at the bottom of page 8, paragraph 2.3. "At a certain stage, I'm not quite sure of the date, Strongman was involved in a robbery and he was charged, found guilty and sentenced to prison. To the best of my recollection he served a year or two after which he again came to me to ask for work." MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That is not correct, not according to your evidence now. MR COETZEE I think Mr Chairperson, I now give the details of the process that led to his re-appointment at that stage. MR HATTINGH But he never came to you, he went to Brig van Rensburg to ask for work and you were just told to again appoint him. MR COETZEE It could be so, but I had a direct channel to Roelf van Rensburg, and I also did some homework last night concerning this and I was informed that the Brigadier was the Commander of the Far North and was also involved in the Head Office. MR HATTINGH But now you say that he could have been with you. MR COETZEE I believe that because I was in contact with him on a daily basis, they were all living at the same house. MR HATTINGH But he just came out of jail and now you say that you were in contact with him on a daily basis. MR COETZEE No, on a daily basis I went to the house where Olifant and some of the other people lived. MR HATTINGH But did you have contact with him at that stage? MR COETZEE I cannot recall the specifics, but I would just like to inform you about how the process went, that then led, at the end of the day, to his re-appointment. MR HATTINGH My question to you, Mr Coetzee, was did you have contact with him on a daily basis after he was released from prison? MR COETZEE Contact yes, in that I met him at the place where he lived. MR HATTINGH Now you use the expression "I would have". MR COETZEE I can. MR HATTINGH I'm sorry, you can, you could be in contact with him. But are you not able to tell us if you were in contact with him or not? MR COETZEE If I can put it clearly, I was in contact with him, but I cannot recall in what context. MR HATTINGH And did he, during this contact that you had with him, ask you for work? MR COETZEE I cannot recall. MR HATTINGH Because it's very clear, according to your evidence, that he wanted to come back to work, because according to you he approached van Rensburg. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you cannot recall if he ever approached you. MR COETZEE If I can put it this way. I cannot recall, he could have approached me. MR HATTINGH And you do concede in plain Afrikaans, if you look at the sentence on the bottom of page 809 that: "He again approached me for work" means that he came to you for work. Can you recall if he did it or not? MR COETZEE It is possible, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Well if it is possible, what would your reaction have been if he approached you firstly? MR COETZEE I would not have been able to appoint him, Mr Chairperson, because he was found guilty of a criminal offence. MR HATTINGH Can you recall that you said something like that to him? MR COETZEE No, I cannot. MR HATTINGH You do recall Mr Olifant's evidence in this regard that you told Mr Olifant that you wanted Mr Bambo to come and work again with you and that he must tell him that? MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, sorry if I interrupt, I have it that that was at a later stage. Olifant's evidence was the statement now put to Mr Coetzee was in relation to the time between October and December 1990 and not the stage where Mr Coetzee is now. CHAIRPERSON No, I recall it as - that's correct, Mr Wagener. MR HATTINGH I agree with him, I was wrong, so I apologise. Very well. Let us then deal with that. You did ask Mr Olifant to contact Mr Bambo? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This was now after he was suspended? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH And you wanted Mr Bambo to come and work with you again? MR COETZEE No, I differed with him there. MR HATTINGH Can you think why he would have said this if it wasn't true? MR COETZEE I do not know Mr Chairperson, that's maybe the impression that he had. MR HATTINGH But how is it possible that he had that impression? MR COETZEE Well the fact that he wanted to make contact with them and that I was looking for him. MR HATTINGH I do not know if you are aware of this, but during the time when we heard about other incidents, Mr de Kock, in an attempt to mislead Mr Harms, people who served at Vlakplaas and were then transferred to Bloemfontein, were then taken back to Vlakplaas until the Harms Commission was concluded, to prevent them from coming forward and disclosing certain operations in which they were involved in, do you know about that? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson, I was not part of it. MR HATTINGH And Mr de Kock also testified that they went to a lot of trouble to protect people who had a lot of sensitive information, to keep them as happy as possible and to keep them under the impression that they, also like Mr Nofomela, from disclosing their involvement in these operations. MR COETZEE I do not know anything about it, I'm not part of it. MR HATTINGH You also testified that Joe Mamasela, where they generated a lot of money for him, that he had children in a private school, that he had a safety fence around his house, all actions that were taken to prevent him from talking? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that because in terms of our own unit, nobody ever gave me instructions to take this person in again after that last incident where I suspended his services. MR HATTINGH What I'm asking you now, I'm not quite sure about this because my notes do not say that it was a statement that was made by you, or if it was a version of Mr Olifant, but somewhere there was mention made about a fear that if the police arrested Mr Bambo, he would have gone over to violence and he could have killed or injured somebody. MR COETZEE Yes, the statement was made by Mr Olifant with reference to a discussion between him and Col Pretorius. MR HATTINGH Have you ever had such a fear? MR COETZEE Yes, I believe that I knew his background, he could have, yes, with any action against him, knowing specifically at that stage that his services had been suspended and certain allegations that were made against him concerning criminal activities, and he could have, in such a situation, resorted, as Mr Olifant put it or Mr Pretorius put it, it could have been that he then would have resorted to violence. MR HATTINGH And while you foresaw that possibility at that stage, did you do anything to prevent such a situation. MR COETZEE Then I would have made - I would have requested Mr Olifant again for the second time and as I said yesterday, I would have attempted to get hold of him. I did not make a second request to Mr Olifant. I also did not take the initiative to make or to arrange for a meeting with Mr Bambo and I also said yesterday that it was possible for me, if I really wanted to get hold of him, I could. I however did not do it. MR HATTINGH You heard Mr Olifant's evidence that his impression during the conversation with Mr Bambo was that he had a certain fear that because of that he changed his residential address. MR COETZEE Yes, I heard that Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Then if that is correct, then you wouldn't have been able to get hold of him that easily. MR COETZEE It would still have been easy to get hold of him. MR HATTINGH Did you want to talk to him to prevent such a violent outburst, or possible violent outburst? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson, I wanted to inform him that I am aware of certain allegations. I am sure I would have questioned him about these allegations. As I have already said, I would have warned him that if he was involved in any criminal activities and there is substance to it and if I had substance, I would have acted against him at that stage. MR HATTINGH So you wanted to warn him that if he had information about criminal activities on his side, he would have warned him and that he had to take responsibility for his criminal activities. MR COETZEE This meeting, Mr Chairperson, never took place, MR HATTINGH Yes, I do know that, but did you want to get certain information from Mr Bambo. MR COETZEE Yes, because as a handler who knew them, I think I had the capacity to talk to this person. MR HATTINGH That is not the question Mr Coetzee, I'm asking you a very simple question. Did you want to get certain information from him? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH What information? MR COETZEE Well in terms of the allegations that were made against him, his activities with other criminals. MR HATTINGH My notes about your evidence here is that you had two reasons why you wanted to contact him. MR COETZEE The first one that you mentioned was to talk about him and then extract information from him. MR HATTINGH Well what information did you want to extract from him? MR COETZEE As I just put it, Mr Chairperson, I would have discussed him, or I would warn him first of all and then if there was certain substance to these allegations that he was involved in criminal activities, I would have warned him. MR HATTINGH Did you really believe that Mr Bambo would go to you and say: "Yes, I did rob Barclays Bank, or First National Bank and the week before I robbed Trust Bank", do you think he would have done that? MR COETZEE Mr Chairperson, I do not think he would have disclosed everything to me, but I'm sure he would have conveyed some information to me and he would have then used that to take certain steps against him and to ensure that he would be charged for them. I cannot really comment what I would have done at that stage, because the meeting was never realised and I never received any information from him. MR HATTINGH But you said that if you found any substance in the allegations that he was involved in criminal activities, you would have taken certain steps against him. MR COETZEE Yes, I would have managed the process. MR HATTINGH But then if he did give you information that he was involved in criminal activities, then it would have been a statement to you. What would you have done then? MR COETZEE I would have managed the process with the relevant units, or through the command structure, where he could then act as a State witness. MR HATTINGH Very well, let's leave it there. You also stated in your evidence, let me just find my notes, I'm not sure whether it's correct verbatim but it was put to you in more-or-less words to the following extent "Suppose Strongman was a great security risk, what would you have done about that?" Can you recall? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you recall what your answer was? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, I think so. MR HATTINGH Would you repeat it for us please, because my note is very cryptic? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I said that the process would have had to run its course and if I was held accountable for such acts, then they would have taken acts against me, like in the case of Col de Kock and that is why I'm still here today. It's a process that's being managed and in terms of these incidents, I have already signed warning statements at the A-G's office. MR HATTINGH Please explain to us in simple language, what do you mean when you say that the process would have run its course. MR COETZEE Chairperson, I would have been prosecuted. MR HATTINGH I mean what would you have done if Strongman was a security risk for you? MR COETZEE There were two alternatives. MR HATTINGH Let us hear. MR COETZEE If I may say so, Chairperson, if I may put it as such, (1) the process runs its course which would have been reasonable for me and (2) I could have acted against this person myself. This would not have brought me anywhere because there were so many of these people, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now, I'm asking you once again, you are saying that the process would have run its course, what do you mean by that? MR COETZEE In brief, Chairperson, they would have criminally prosecuted me. MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee, I am not certain whether you and I are on the same level now. Let us suppose the question was put to you by your legal representative on a hypothetical basis and he said that suppose Bambo, before his death, was a security risk to you, what would you have done about it? With regard to Bambo, not what would happen afterwards to you. MR COETZEE Chairperson, I have given the two alternatives. I do not know whether I understand Mr Hattingh properly. The alternatives to which I want to refer is that I act myself against the particular person. I could have gone to Col de Kock for assistance or I could have let the process run its course where he would have disclosed everything where there was an investigation and where I would be charged for these particular incidents, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What would this process have been that had to run its course. MR COETZEE By that I mean the investigation and the criminal accountability on my part. MR HATTINGH Let us just put aside that possibility. Let us look at the other possibility that you have mentioned, that you could act yourself. What do you mean by that? MR COETZEE Chairperson, that I could have killed this person. MR HATTINGH You were very hesitant to put it as forthright, but you would have considered that possibility if he was a risk to you? MR COETZEE I did not get to that point? MR HATTINGH But you would have, Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE Yes, that's what I said. That would have been one of the alternatives Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So it was not a foreign concept with you that if your security was threatened, that persons would be killed in order to combat that threat? MR COETZEE As you have said, that possibility did exist Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then you added that you would have approached Mr de Kock for assistance. Why? MR COETZEE Because I know Mr de Kock and I was aware of Vlakplaas and I had already been involved with Mr de Kock in operations. MR HATTINGH So you were aware that Vlakplaas's operational unit, more specifically of the Security Police that was used to act violently against the then enemies of the Government ...(end of tape) MR COETZEE ... did not have much knowledge about internal operations. I was not involved there. MR HATTINGH Did you think that they would act internally? MR COETZEE The possibility was there. MR HATTINGH You mention a possibility now, but you say that you may have approached Mr de Kock for assistance and that was to kill someone within the Republic? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you yourself, you would not have undertaken the elimination? MR COETZEE I could have Chairperson, but I never got to that point. MR HATTINGH Now, are you aware of the circulars from Head Office to all other units of the South African police with regard to the applications of Vlakplaas and its members? MR COETZEE I believe so, although I cannot recall right now. MR HATTINGH You see, Mr de Kock on various occasions gave evidence, in the very first case that was handled with regard to his applications with regard to Vlakplaas and what it consisted of, what its purposes were, how it was used and so forth and he did this in a supplementary affidavit which has served before just about every Committee where his applications have been heard and in this document, this supplementary affidavit, he mentions this, that there were circulars which stated that not any member of the Security Police, could approach Mr de Kock for assistance, that the Commander of C1, the overhead Commander, in other words Mr de Kock's Commander, had to be approached for assistance. He could not be directly approached, are you aware of that? MR COETZEE It's possible, Chairperson. MR WAGENER May I interrupt here? In fairness to the witness, I think Mr Hattingh should also put that those circulars he referred to were in 1980, 1981 and they referred to lawful action to be taken by the Vlakplaas component. In fairness to the witness, the statement should be complete. CHAIRPERSON Is this so? MR HATTINGH That is so, Mr Chairman. I accept that. But I want to put it to you Mr Coetzee that you could not just go to Vlakplaas and say; "Listen here, will you come and kill this guy for me?" MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And now, this is Mr de Kock's version, that the correct procedure had been followed here, you went through Gen Engelbrecht and directed your request for assistance through him. MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that Chairperson, I was not present where such a request was directed and I did not direct such a request to the General. MR HATTINGH Very well. MR WAGENER Sorry to interrupt again, but there was never evidence that it was the prescribed procedure that for unlawful acts like the killing of someone, the procedure in terms of the circulars had to be followed. It is not a fair statement put by Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, Gen van der Merwe gave evidence on several occasions and he made it quite clear that they would never have spelled out criminal conduct in a letter like that. The inference was clear that if you want to use Vlakplaas for legitimate or illegitimate purposes you had to approach them through their Commanding Officer. They couldn't possibly say in a circular like that: "If you want Vlakplaas to commit crimes, you must do this or that and the other", they would never have said something like that, that would be totally naive Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Wouldn't they have used, in that kind of situation, some kind of code language like for example to say: "Please do something about this man"? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I submit that it became abundantly clear, throughout all these hearings, what Vlakplaas was there for and what it was used for and the intention was that it should always be through the Commanding Officer. CHAIRPERSON That's correct. No, no, that is the tenor of the evidence. Should we rehash it, because we have listened to so many of these incidents and the monster Vlakplaas became to be, should we rehash that? MR HATTINGH I submit it's not necessary Mr Chairman, I'm going to deal with a further aspect which emerged from these circulars that were sent to all units. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MR HATTINGH Mr Coetzee, in these circulars it was made clear that if Vlakplaas' assistance was needed to come and work in a certain area, then they work under the command of the Commander in that area. Were you aware of that? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson, although I was not involved with that unit. I would just like to point out to the Committee, we were an Intelligence Unit. We were not involved, not according to my knowledge with such operations. There were units and in this regard, if I could just shed more light on this, Col Grobler of Soweto who specifically in this regard dealt with Col de Kock's unit and as an Intelligence Unit we were not exposed or to the best of our ability we tried not to expose ourselves. MR HATTINGH The Pantso operation in Swaziland, when that happened, which unit were you attached to? MR COETZEE Intelligence Unit, Soweto, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you participated in that operation? MR COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And Mr de Kock's assistance was also called in? MR COETZEE Yes and this took place under instruction, this was executed by Col de Kock as operational Commander on instruction of Head Office and a person mentioned in this statement, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Very well then. Now we also know from evidence which has been led through many Committees and before the Harms Commission when the revelations of Mr Coetzee and Mr Nofomela came about, Vlakplaas, to use an idiom here, was put on ice, can you recall that? MR COETZEE I can recall that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And Mr de Kock's evidence was, in many of those instances and it would appear from this supplementary affidavit of his, that he was supposedly suspended from the service, pending the Harms Commission's investigation, where you there? MR COETZEE That is what I heard, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH In other words, that the impression which was created to the outside was that action was taken against these persons while these investigations are on-going and up till a finding is made, they will not render any service. Were you aware of that? MR COETZEE Yes, I can remember that, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you will concede that there were very few instances during the last part of 1989 and the first part of 1990 that made more headlines than the Harms Commission and the evidence that was led there. MR COETZEE That's possible, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH It's not possible, it was in the news daily. MR COETZEE Yes, I can recall there was media coverage. MR HATTINGH And Mr de Kock also said, you may have been aware of his evidence and you must have heard that all of a sudden Vlakplaas and Vlakplaas' people became lepers, no-one wanted to associate with them, the parties that were held there and that were attended by the Generals in Staff just did not take place anymore, you were aware of that? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that, I was not a regular visitor to Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH And you will certainly concede that at that stage Vlakplaas was for the Security Police in particular, a very big embarrassment. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then you will also concede that it would have been unwise to approach Vlakplaas here a month, two or three months after the Harms Commission, to go and kill someone? MR COETZEE That's possible, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And specifically not to go and kill someone who had been officially detained in a prison and been taken out of there. MR COETZEE That is logical, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Because this is not someone one would go and await or go and abduct at night and just make him disappear, one has to say what happened to this person because he is officially imprisoned. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And if he is taken out of that prison and he attempts to escape, or attempts to assault someone and he is killed, he's shot dead and the person who kills him is a member of Vlakplaas, it would have caused great consternation, is that not so? MR COETZEE I believe so Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And I put it to you, that is the reason why they did not use the services of Vlakplaas for the killing of the person. MR COETZEE At this stage on this aspect, I cannot comment, Chairperson, but it's logical Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But instead thereof, they used the services of an experienced murder and robbery detective, who is trusted among the ranks so much that he was acceptable to Mr de Kock as a member of Vlakplaas. MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And who was so reliable in the police ranks that indeed later he became a member of the Security Police. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, he did become a member of the Security Branch later. MR HATTINGH Vlakplaas was indeed used to perform services which would not come to light later, namely the establishment of weapons cache points. MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But when the killing took place, there was not a member involved in the killing thereof. MR COETZEE That's how it was testified here, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And when the killing took place, it was only this Koekemoer who was so reliable, who could testify as to how it happened. MR COETZEE That is how he told it, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH May I just hear from you, when was your amnesty application handed in? MR COETZEE Chairperson, let me just have a look. On the 17th of December 1996, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And thereafter you did not supplement it? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH By supplementing, I mean you did not bring in any new applications? MR COETZEE Not that I can recall, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I am informed that the final cut-off date was in September of 1997. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So in December of 1996 you handed in your application? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you say before that you heard about this incident? MR COETZEE I heard of this incident with the applications in December. The time period immediately before the 16th/17th of December, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Just before that you heard about this incident? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How did you hear of it? MR COETZEE It was in Mr Wagener's offices, Chairperson. There was an allegation made that we were responsible for the killing of Bambo, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who made this allegation? MR COETZEE I cannot recall Chairperson, but I want to imagine we were informed at that stage that it was made by Col de Kock. MR HATTINGH But that is incorrect. Mr de Kock never in his criminal trial testified about that. MR COETZEE That is what I can recall Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can I read to you what was said about it in his criminal trial? I refer to bundle - I do not know whether it's part of the bundle, but the evidence of Mr Koekemoer that was attached to the documents, page 11763. There he is questioned by Mr Pretorius who was the Prosecutor in Mr de Kock's case. It starts on page 11762, Mr Pretorius. He says "I thank the Court, there was an incident where a certain Bambo was killed in Nelspruit, is that correct?" And Mr Koekemoer says: "Your Worship, if you would just refresh my memory." And then he says, Mr Pretorius: "A person Adriano Louis Bambo, a person who was arrested by the Eastern Transvaal Murder and Robbery unit and who was allegedly taken out to identify a DLB, a weapons cache point in the Nelspruit vicinity and then he was killed on the scene there because he allegedly grabbed a handgrenade, can you recall that incident?" And he says: "That is correct." And then Mr Pretorius says: "I shall be brief, I shall put it to you that I have an affidavit from Lionel Snyman in this regard, or I have seen the affidavit in that regard and I have also consulted with Dawid Brits in this regard. Is it so that before you took this person to Nelspruit vicinity, that you went to Vlakplaas? And I also wish to say to you that you must be careful as the Court has indicated initially that you do not have to incriminate yourself." And then His Worship Judge van der Merwe says and he confirms that the witness does not have to incriminate himself, and here on line 20, Mr Pretorius continues and says, he says to the Court that the witness went to Vlakplaas himself and the Judge says that he was alone and he says: "I do not know whether this leads to any incrimination." And Mr Koekemoer says: "I have been to Vlakplaas before then." And then Mr Pretorius continues: "Is it so that Dawid Brits went down with you to the Nelspruit vicinity?" And he says: "No, that is not true." And then Mr Pretorius says that: "My information is that beforehand a weapons cache point was established there with landmines that Dawid Brits had supplied." And he says" "I do not know of that." "Very well and then the person was shot there at the scene, is that correct?" And he says: "That is correct." Mr Pretorius says: "The point I wish to make is that in some instances you also assisted C10's people and you did favours for each other, is that correct?" And he says: "Can you just qualify that?" And Justice van der Merwe intercedes and says that: "You sometimes assisted them with operations and they assisted you with operations, because it has already been said that by means of handlers, askaris were of assistance to you." And he says "That is correct." And he continues: "And the statement was further and consequently favours were done for each other, in other words did favours for each other, rolled boulders out of the way for each other, that is what it boils down to." And he interrupts the Judge there and he says: "The basis was strictly work basis." That is the sum total of what Mr Koekemoer had to say about the Bambo incident and I'm telling you now Mr de Kock did not testify about it, I was previously wrong, but I may be incorrect now but my recollection is that Mr de Kock did not testify about this himself and I would have expected that if he did give evidence about this, that his evidence would be attached to this, as it has been done in other incidents. Now I have spoken long now, Mr Coetzee, but the conclusion that I reach is that you could not have heard from the criminal trial of Mr de Kock, that you could not have heard from that that you had been involved in the Bambo incident, do you agree? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And I also cannot see how Mr Wagener had insight into Mr Snyman's statement to the police. MR COETZEE Chairperson, if I may just add, at that stage all the SAP applicants got together at Mr Wagener's office and there were discussions with regard to incidents and if I recall correctly, I referred that Col de Kock, that it was said in his trial that we were responsible for the death of this person, but what I can recall is that in the Adriano Bambo case, because he was an informer of ours, was being attached to us by somebody else as well as other incidents that we did not describe at that stage and for which we did not apply for amnesty for the pure reason Chairperson, because we were not involved. MR HATTINGH Let us see then, who could have given evidence about this, or information about this? Mr Snyman here said that he did not know of your involvement, do you recall that? MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH He just said that he received instruction to supply equipment or explosives for the establishment of a weapons cache point. Do you recall that? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH MR COETZEE I cannot recall how this specific incident was placed there. It was one of two or three incidents as amongst others, the black handgrenades in Alexandra to which I was connected and I denied it there and for which I did not submit any application. MR HATTINGH Well, let us just stick to the Bambo incident. The only persons who knew of what had happened there, firstly with regard to the weapons cache point, Mr Brits and Snyman, they do not mention you and possibly Mr Koekemoer may have known of it and he does not mention you, he does not ask for amnesty, does not mention the two of you as persons who were involved, so where could you have received this information that you had allegedly been involved in this incident? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I cannot recall how this specific - maybe Col Anton who went with me through this process later, maybe he can shed some light on this aspect. I do not know whether it could have come from Brig Thoms(sic), but there were a myriad of allegations made against us, Chairperson, and these instances where there was substance, which we were involved in, we applied for amnesty, Chairperson, but however today I cannot say where, but it's possible it may have come from Brig Thoms' side, I do not know, but this Bambo case was connected to me because it was the man that I handled in the past Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But where would Brig Thoms have received that information, if it came from him? MR COETZEE I cannot comment, the only thing I can say, Chairperson, is that I signed a warning statement at the A-G's office with regard to this incident, after a myriad of allegations were made against me, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH When did you sign that warning statement? MR COETZEE In 1989, Chairperson, or 1999. MR HATTINGH Years after the cut-off date for amnesty applications? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So can you recall whether that was the first time when you heard of it? MR COETZEE No Chairperson, what I wanted to say here was that there I also went to sign a warning statement at the A-G's office regarding this incident, so I do not know where they received their information or statements from, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is the truth not the following, Mr Coetzee, you knew that the only persons who could know, who had first-hand knowledge of this incident insofar as it sheds light on your possible involvement, was firstly Mr de Kock, secondly possibly Mr Human, three, possibly Mr Koekemoer and not one of them spoke up, not one of them applied for amnesty for this incident, is that correct? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on their applications. It is clear that Capt Koekemoer who testified here, did not apply for amnesty and I do not know of Brig Human's application or whether he had submitted an application in this regard. MR HATTINGH Yes, but he would have been here if he had submitted an application. MR COETZEE Yes. MR HATTINGH So he did not apply. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you accepted that, 'no-one would talk about this incident, that is why I will not talk about it.' MR COETZEE I deny that, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And when this was exposed, it was too late for you to apply for amnesty. MR COETZEE I deny that Chairperson, I would have then at that stage where I listed all the incidents where I would have been involved in, I would have incorporated this incident as well. MR HATTINGH In your warning statement, is this incident stated, the Bambo incident? MR COETZEE Yes, I speak under correction but I think so, yes. MR HATTINGH Where do you say about it that: "I do not know anything about it?" MR COETZEE The same as I am saying today. MR HATTINGH So in the statement you say that you do not know of it? MR COETZEE What I said in the statement Chairperson was that I do not wish to comment. MR HATTINGH That is something else than saying that: "I do not know about it." MR COETZEE That is why I'm saying it, that is why I'm putting it now as such. MR HATTINGH So if you really did not know of it and you were not involved, then there was no risk for you to say in the warning statement that: "I do not know of this incident." MR COETZEE May I just ascertain, Chairperson, I do not have that statement here with me, what did I say there? Did I say that I did not want to comment, or I don't know about it? This is on the grounds of my legal representative's advice, my comment to the A-G's office at that stage. MR HATTINGH Do you not have the statement before you? MR COETZEE No. MR HATTINGH Very well, I wish to put it to you Mr Coetzee, that you had indeed sent Mr Olifant to bring Mr Bambo to you, that you wanted to take him in employ again, so that you could control him so that he would not talk out about operations that he was involved in. I assume that you deny that? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And that Mr Olifant had reported back to you that Mr Bambo didn't want to have any dealings with you and harboured fears and that he had changed his address and that the warning lights came on with you. MR COETZEE Only yesterday did I hear that he changed his address and that he had harboured fears. I was of the opinion if he wanted to contact me, he could have done so, he had my telephone numbers and he knew where I lived, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And because he did not want to contact you, you were afraid that specifically in the light that there were serious allegations against him, that he may disclose his involvement in your operations and when you heard that he was in prison, you made a plan to get him out there and to kill him and you were involved in that. MR COETZEE I deny that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hattingh. At this stage we'll take - I would rather take our tea and come back within 15 minutes just to give the interpreters some break. I don't know if it's arranged, but could we arrange it? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION WILLEM HELM JOHANNES COETZEE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh I take it you're finally done? MR HATTINGH Indeed Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair. I'm satisfied that my learned colleague, Mr Hattingh, has covered all aspects which I think are relevant pertaining to my two applicants, so I've got no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Cornelius. Mr van den Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Coetzee, what has now been referred to as the Pantso matter, when did that become public knowledge that you were involved in that? MR COETZEE I believe Chairperson, already shortly after the operation, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And when was that? MR COETZEE I was not personally involved there. If I am not mistaken it could even be December 1985 or '86, I'm not entirely certain of the dates. MR VAN DEN BERG There is an incident, we can research that. And this was a so-called external operation? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Simelane matter. As I recall it, this only came into the public domain after Sgt Veyi made certain revelations to the Sowetan. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you recall when he made those revelations? MR COETZEE 1995, yes, that is as I have it, that is how I recall it, from the application for the abduction of Ms Simelane. MR VAN DEN BERG Of this Simelane matter, I can recall that you were quite strict with your men, how they worked and with whom they discussed issues. MR COETZEE Yes, that's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG To such an extent that part of your group was left out at some point in time in order to secure those operations. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG If I understood your cross-examination by Mr Hattingh properly, you considered the possibility of killing Mr Bambo. MR COETZEE This idea could have taken place with you. May I just place it as such, Chairperson, those were the two alternatives I referred to. MR WAGENER Sorry, Mr Chairman, but the evidence was, should Bambo have been a security risk, what would have been the alternatives? But the evidence was repeatedly, he was not a security risk. CHAIRPERSON That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG Perhaps I phrased it somewhat inelegantly, Mr Chairperson. In that scenario and when one realises that you could not involve Vlakplaas in this operation, how would you have gone about this? MR COETZEE I cannot comment on that because I didn't think about it and I did not give execution to any ideas about it. MR VAN DEN BERG Would you not have involved an outsider? MR COETZEE Highly improbable. MR VAN DEN BERG No further questions Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Hurwitz. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ Mr Coetzee, how long have you known Manuel Olifant? MR COETZEE Very long, Sir, Mr Chairperson. MR HURWITZ And would you describe the relationship with him as fairly positive? MR COETZEE As he testified, yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I see. Now can you just describe briefly the length of your service in the Security section of the South African Police? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I think already there with the hearing of the incidents, we referred to various dates where I was involved. I may just point out that up to and until September 1993, I do speak under correction, I was attached to covert Intelligence components, Chairperson, since my Soweto days Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now most of the operations and procedures which did take place, were they carefully documented? MR COETZEE Which operation are you referring to? MR HURWITZ I'm talking generally. Was there a case docket on every operation undertaken? MR COETZEE Yes, there were information notes on a continual basis Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now, were you agitated by the fact that a former informer who was possessed of very sensitive information, had gone off the rails? Did this agitate you in any way? MR COETZEE Yes, there were many such incidents where people went off the rail, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ I'm talking about this particular incident. MR COETZEE He had already proven himself upon the first arrest for armed robbery, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now the length of your service in the Security Police and the number of operations you were involved with, these must have been numerous and far too many to mention, is that correct? MR COETZEE To my knowledge Chairperson, the incidents are in my application, arrests, legal arrests and legal actions excluded, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Let's be frank with the Committee. During years of work, there are certain things which do skip your mind, which are not imprinted to such an extent that they cause you to devote a lot of thought thereto. MR COETZEE It's possible, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now, is it possible, now I want you to be frank with the Committee, that you could have forgotten about this conversation with Manuel Olifant which he so clearly remembers? MR COETZEE I deny that, I deny the contents of that conversation. I would just like to submit to the Committee that Mr Olifant had involved me in an incident which served before the TRC, where he implicated me with the death of three activists in Soweto, of which I had no knowledge up until 1996 and this incident served before the Committee and it has been proved that I was not involved in the incident Chairperson. MR HURWITZ What perturbs me, Mr Coetzee, is that taking into account that Mr Hattingh's question to you, that should it have come out that Mr Bambo was a security risk, you would have considered eliminating him - no, let me finish the question. That coupled with Mr Olifant's clear and categoric memory of this conversation, is it not possible that you did forget about it? MR COETZEE Not at all, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Is it possible that the possibility existed that you could have had such a conversation? MR COETZEE I never had any such a discussion with Mr Olifant, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Why are you so dead certain about something which happened nine years ago? MR COETZEE This specific incident I recall, otherwise I would have told the Committee that I was of the intention of acting against this person, if he had been a risk for me. I would have also told the Committee that I had attempted repeatedly to try to trace this person and thereafter I never attempted to contact Mr Olifant or this person, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now coming back to the SAP69 referred to by Mr Wagener, can you just explain the firearm used in the incident? What firearm was it? That was the conviction of robbery for Mr Bambo. MR COETZEE I speak under correction Sir. I think it was a .32 pistol, I cannot recall and I also told the Committee that I did not investigate the matter, I was not involved in this case. MR HURWITZ Now what is the position with informers? Are they issued with firearms? MR COETZEE These people had already been on a contract basis in Namibia, members of the Force and they were sent back to South Africa. I cannot recall at that stage whether they had already had our contracts, but they were at safehouses from time to time, placed in possession of arms, yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ So is it possible that they were issued with firearms, is that what you're saying? MR COETZEE No, I cannot recall. However, if this particular individual later hears he was armed on the grounds of his R contract status. MR HURWITZ My recollection of the evidence yesterday was that the weapon used in the robbery incident was a weapon which disappeared at Soweto, am I correct? Did I write it down correctly? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now my instructions are that the deceased, Mr Bambo, was issued with a 7.65 weapon by yourself, in his presence, in the presence of Mr Olifant. MR COETZEE I will stand by my point that with regard to this particular incident, this was committed with a stolen firearm Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Are you then denying that you issued a weapon to the deceased? MR COETZEE At what time, Chairperson? If you can give me a time frame. MR HURWITZ The exact period I'm not certain of. I could take an instruction if the Committee wants it, but I don't think it's relevant. The question then that is being asked is, was Mr Bambo issued with a weapon by yourself at any stage? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now, my further instructions are that you personally volunteered to reappoint Mr Bambo without first consulting Brig van Rensburg. MR COETZEE Will you repeat the question please? MR HURWITZ My instructions are that you volunteered to reappoint Mr Bambo without first consulting, without being pushed to do so by Brig van Rensburg or anyone else. MR COETZEE To which time are you referring to? MR HURWITZ After his release from prison. MR COETZEE Was this in 19 - I cannot recall, but I do know that the instruction came. I will stand by my point, the instructions came from Brig van Rensburg, who looked after these people. I conceded, this person was taken in service and he rendered service up to his last suspension Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Could you think of any possible reason why Mr Olifant would want to cause you any harm or implicate you? MR COETZEE I cannot comment, Chairperson, I've already indicated that he had made many mistakes already. MR HURWITZ Can you elaborate on when he'd made many mistakes? MR COETZEE I refer to the specific one incident where he implicated me which served before the Committee and where he said certainly that it was an instruction from myself and I knew of it. MR HURWITZ Well that's still for the Committee to decide. The question I'm putting to you or the statement is that based on the totality of evidence before the Committee, it's more probable that Mr Olifant's version is correct, that you did have this conversation with him. MR COETZEE I will stand by my point as I offered it to the Committee. MR HURWITZ Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HURWITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hurwitz. Ms Patel. ...(end of tape) ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI No thank you Chair, I don't have any questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee, when Bambo and the others were with Koevoet, in what capacity were they there? MR COETZEE I speak under correction, I believe Col de Kock would be able to assist me, I think they were appointed as Special Constables, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And I take it now when they were transferred to Soweto thereafter, in what capacity then? MR COETZEE As Headquarters informers and Soweto informers, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Even though Bambo proved himself to be a strong man and the nickname originated from you that he could do the job, he now becomes just an informer when he was a Special Constable of outstanding bravery? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You had no input to say: "Look I want these guys and let them be given the status of police in our unit"? MR COETZEE Yes, there were certain prescriptions and instructions for the taking into service of members of the Force. No academic requirements were needed. They had no South African documents in their possession. That was a problem, we worked on it. I think Mr Olifant's appointment testifies to the fact that such appointments did realise later, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You were asked by Mr Hurwitz about them being issued with firearms. What I want to know is that with the other operations where the informers had to execute as Olifant has said, that they executed several, were they in those instances issued with firearms? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I assume that some of them were placed in possession by myself or by my second-in-command of arms when they had to secure safehouses and they did handling in order to combat the robbery of vehicles and to defend themselves. CHAIRPERSON Did you know when Mr Bambo was imprisoned, that he subsequently escaped and he thereafter was rearrested and imprisoned? MR COETZEE I have no knowledge up to that time that I said that I was following on Mr Olifant, that I heard that he had been arrested and he escaped, but Chairperson, no person of the unit which investigated the matter against him and arrested him, did at any stage contact me and informed me in this regard with regard to the allegations against him and his arrest and escape, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You only knew about when you suspended him, that he was subsequently again arrested for robbery? MR COETZEE Yes, afterwards, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And nothing about his escape and now receiving a term of imprisonment, you don't know. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Under which circumstances, if you had this deviant behaviour in the informers, would you have approached Col de Kock to instil discipline, if I may put it that way? Under what circumstances would you do that because in all fairness to you you said you would have approached Col de Kock? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, that's what I said. CHAIRPERSON Under what circumstances, in respect of these informers or askaris, would you have approached him? MR COETZEE I would have contacted him directly, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What I actually want to know is that if you approach him where you had exercised strict discipline and you had various options at your disposal and in this instance you had two, forgetting the first, that the normal process of the law would have taken its course and concentrating on the second one, under what circumstances under the second option you had, would you approach Col de Kock? MR COETZEE I would have visited him at his offices and put the problem to him, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON On an advisory capacity, or that he should take over? MR COETZEE No, I would not, I would only present the problem to the Colonel, I would have made suggestions or have listened to suggestions from him as to how to manage the situation Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Isn't it that we know at this juncture that when Vlakplaas and specifically Mr de Kock in this instance, when he's approached, this is of a serious nature, very serious nature? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And that that person would even be eliminated? MR COETZEE If that was the solution Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But don't we know that Vlakplaas was eliminating, even evidence we've heard for the past three years is that even if an askari was deviant, Mr de Kock wouldn't hesitate to take him out or eliminate him, to use the words used in the "omsendbriewe"? MR COETZEE That is possible Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I say, I'm telling you that we have listened to that, it's not a possibility, it's that if an askari was deviant, Mr de Kock would exercise little patience with such a person. MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, when it would appear that, it came out in cases later. CHAIRPERSON But this never crossed your mind, in any event? MR COETZEE I did not implement anything or go to the Colonel, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It would have eventually happened, if you couldn't exercise the two options, which the one took its due process? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It still bothers me. I think it's Mr de Kock in his application, if I'm not mistaken, are you called - is your nickname Timul? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know each other very well, with Mr de Kock? MR COETZEE I would believe so, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When did you first meet Mr de Kock? MR COETZEE In Namibia, Chairperson, with Koevoet. CHAIRPERSON Is that where your name originated, because my impression is that it's the guy who fell to his death in John Vorster Square, Timul? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson, this name came along from 1972 with me, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In any even, what I wanted to ask you is that if I listen to the evidence proffered by Mr de Kock, or rather let me put it the other way around, that the evidence of Messrs Snyman and Brits, when the other does not remember precisely how it happened, but however, Mr de Kock said to them: "Look, I want you to assist murder and robbery", that's their evidence and that "you Brits, get the DLB in codes in place". That's their evidence and they did not know precisely what happened, but Mr de Kock says on page 3 of bundle 1 "On opportunity, Gen Engelbrecht requested me to delegate one of my members to, along with a member of the East Rand Murder and Robbery Unit, to ...(not translated)" In your mind, I'm just wanting to find out, how could Mr de Kock have come to such information that this informer or source belonged to you, even though he says he spoke to Engelbrecht? MR COETZEE I cannot comment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now when you returned from South West Africa, because Namibia, it's recent, let's call it what it was known to us during the Koevoet operations, did you have any contact with Mr de Kock? MR COETZEE No, Chairperson, only when he returned to the RSA, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Could you repeat that please? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I had no further contact with Mr de Kock while he was in Namibia. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wagener, do you have any re-examination? Thank you Mr Coetzee. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman. Mr Coetzee, you were questioned by Mr Hattingh concerning a warning statement. I have a document in front of me, I got it from Ms Patel, is this the warning statement? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER What is the date thereof? MR COETZEE 6th July 1989, sorry '98. 6/7/1998. MR WAGENER And on page two thereof, it is a typed form in which it is filled in with pen. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER And on page two thereof, the question is typed, it reads as follows "What is your choice? Would you like to make a statement, only answer questions, or not to make a statement." Then you give your answer, what is it? MR COETZEE Not to make a statement on the advice of my legal adviser. MR WAGENER Very well. Then just a technical point, questions were put to you by Mr Hurwitz, how long you were in the Security Police. If I look at bundle 3, page 7, paragraph 1, can you just read it in the record from the beginning? MR COETZEE "On the 8th of December, 1968, I joined the South African Police. Immediately after my basic training at the College, I was transferred on the 3rd of July 1970 to the Security Branch where I served until, because of medical reasons I left the Department on the 30th of April 1997." MR WAGENER So in other words, to answer Mr Hurwitz's question, you were approximately for 27 years, a member of the Security Police? MR COETZEE That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER In Exhibit A, the statement of Mr Olifant, he refers to amongst others on page 3, to the Swaziland incident. If you can recall, it was one of the incidents where he said that Strongman and himself were involved, as well as other members. Can you recall that? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER He also states that they had to reconnoitre, if I translate it correctly, at a house in Dalbridge, in Swaziland. Can you see that? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER And then he continues and says that "At a certain stage an operation followed in Swaziland where people were killed." MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER In which you were involved as well as Mr de Kock and others. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Now we do know that this is the incident that we refer to as the Pantso/Smit incident. MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER Regarding the date, Mr Chairman, for completeness sake, I've got the Judgment here with me. The date of this incident was the 13th to the 14th of December 1986. I think Mr van den Berg asked about the date. CHAIRPERSON Come with the year again please. MR WAGENER 1986, 13 and 14 December. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR WAGENER You were involved in this incident in '86. Did this shooting take place at the same house to which Mr Olifant referred to, where they reconnoitred? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER It's not the same house? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Then I would like to ask you, you testified that during that same time when Mr Bambo was released, other members were also released. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER That is now from the Security Branch? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER Did that also include members from your section in Soweto? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER You have already said in your statement in bundle three that there were other black members and specifically who were involved in other operations and who held a greater risk for you than Strongman did. MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Did you at any stage, that is now up to today, act against any of such members? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Did you kill anybody or tell anybody to kill them? MR COETZEE No. MR WAGENER Were there at any stage any of these members in prison? MR COETZEE Yes, there are currently some of them serving a sentence. MR WAGENER Who are they? MR COETZEE Inst Phineas Motsualiba. MR WAGENER Motsualiba, is that his surname? MR COETZEE Yes. MR WAGENER Was he involved in operations for which you apply for amnesty? MR COETZEE Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Did you at any stage consider killing him or eliminating him? MR COETZEE No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. Mr Coetzee thank you very much, you are excused. MR COETZEE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR WAGENER Chairman, the next witness will then be Mr Anton Pretorius. He is now also on my right-hand side. Thank you. ANTON PRETORIUS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You may be seated and be comfortable. EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr Pretorius, in this matter you have made a short affidavit and you can find that on page 12 and 13 of bundle 3 of the documents, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR WAGENER It is an affidavit, but would you also like to confirm the correctness thereof? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER In short, since when - from when did you work with the previous witness, Mr Coetzee? MR PRETORIUS That was from September 1981. MR WAGENER And where was this? MR PRETORIUS In Soweto. MR WAGENER The deceased in this matter, Mr Bambo, when did you meet him for the first time? MR PRETORIUS If I'm not wrong, it was in 1983 that he arrived in Soweto, or late 1982, beginning 83. MR WAGENER And Mr Olifant, one of the previous witnesses? MR PRETORIUS That had to be late 83 beginning 84, if my recollection is correct, that he came then from Ovamboland. MR WAGENER So that means that you did not work with these three in the old South West? MR PRETORIUS No. MR WAGENER During the time in Soweto to which you just referred, what was the relationship between you and Mr Bambo, Strongman? MR PRETORIUS There was not an exceptional relationship. I would say it was like any subordinate or informer. MR WAGENER Did you work closely with him? MR PRETORIUS At that stage I was second-in-command of the Intelligence Unit and I did, at certain times, work closely with him and Mr Coetzee. MR WAGENER I see that Mr Coetzee said and you confirmed it, that you were his co-handlers. MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR WAGENER Now we also know Mr Pretorius that at the end of 1996 you submitted an application for amnesty where you deal with various incidents. MR PRETORIUS That is correct yes. MR WAGENER Was Mr Bambo involved in any of these incidents for which you applied for amnesty? MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Do you apply for the Simelane incident? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR WAGENER Was Mr Bambo involved in that one? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER What was the date of that incident? MR PRETORIUS I think it was September 1983. MR WAGENER You are aware and you attended this hearing this whole week and you've heard the evidence that has been led. MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR WAGENER So you are aware of first of all, the allegations of Mr de Kock, or let us begin from the allegations made by Mr Olifant. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER And that allegations that he made in Exhibit A, where he deals with various incidents, you did read Exhibit A? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR WAGENER You also heard the cross-examination that I led myself concerning Mr Olifant's evidence where I put it to him that my instructions were also on behalf of you and do you confirm what I told him? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, if it is okay with you, I'm not going to take the witness through each and every incident. I assume it will be done in cross-examination, but to save time, I intend doing it this way, if it is fine. CHAIRPERSON No quite in order, Mr Wagener. MR WAGENER Now you see that Mr Olifant, on page 6 of Exhibit A, refers to a discussion that he allegedly had with you in the second last paragraph of the page. What is your comment on that? MR PRETORIUS I deny the contents of the paragraph. MR WAGENER Did a discussion take place between you and Mr Olifant concerning Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER How did it happen that this discussion took place? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, Olifant also referred to it and I can also recall that there was a newspaper article and I cannot recall if it was him or if I saw it first, but in the newspaper report or article, there was, if my recollection is correct, there was mention made of his escape from prison and myself and Mr Olifant then discussed this article. MR WAGENER Did you express any fears concerning Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS The only fear that I had was for Bambo's own life, in that he would be killed and the fear, as Mr Olifant put it, that if Mr Olifant was cornered, he's not the type of person who would just give over, he would definitely draw a weapon, if he had a weapon and fight to the death and that was the fear that I had. MR WAGENER Now Mr Olifant says in this paragraph that there was a fear from you that Strongman would start talking, as others did and I would like to ask, what is your comment on that? MR PRETORIUS I deny it strongly, that I would have said something like this. MR WAGENER You have heard the evidence of Mr Coetzee concerning the whole issue of irregularities that led to the discharge of Mr Bambo. You heard that? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR WAGENER Do you also know about these irregularities and the whole discharge that followed? MR PRETORIUS I can just tell the Committee the following. After Mr Bambo came out of jail, after his first arrest, while they still served under Mr Coetzee's command, that was approximately January 1988, I know of one or two or three incidents where Mr Coetzee chased Adriano away and told him he doesn't want anything to do with him and after a week, I think he disappeared for a month where he had no contact with Mr Bambo. Mr Bambo then came back, tail between the legs, apologised and then Mr Coetzee would then again take him back and then just to qualify that further, Mr Chairperson, unfortunately Mr Bambo had undisciplined characteristics and it was very clear in the unit. MR WAGENER Now Mr Coetzee says that he thought of the possible security risk, that he considered this before he finally discharged Strongman. Were you part of this consideration? MR PRETORIUS No, you are now talking about - I think his discharge, I think it was in '89, I was not part of the discharge. MR WAGENER Was it discussed with you? MR PRETORIUS Sir, all that I can recall from this incident and that is that Mr Coetzee, during a meeting, told me that he now finally chased Strongman away and I think those were his words, he chased him away. MR WAGENER Did you see that as a great security risk for yourself? MR PRETORIUS Not at all. MR WAGENER Why not? MR PRETORIUS The last time that I had contact with him, I think that was in December or January 1988, I'm sorry it was '87, December, or January 88. MR WAGENER At this stage Mr Pretorius when - I'm sorry, let me just interrupt myself. You heard the evidence from Mr de Kock in this hearing. MR PRETORIUS Yes, I did. MR WAGENER Which comes down to the fact that Strongman was murdered in order to prevent him from disclosing sensitive operations from you at the Soweto branch. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. MR WAGENER What is your comment on that? MR PRETORIUS I deny it. I strongly deny it. MR WAGENER During March or the beginning of 1991, because we do know that Strongman died in March 1991, where were you then stationed? MR PRETORIUS I was still at the Soweto branch. MR WAGENER Gen Engelbrecht, what was his position at that stage? MR PRETORIUS I was unaware of what his position was. MR WAGENER Did you know him? MR PRETORIUS I knew about this person, this Gen Krappies Engelbrecht, but I never met him or knew him at that stage. MR WAGENER Then it's also logical to think that he was not a confidant of yours? MR PRETORIUS Definitely not, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Meaning that matters for which you now applied for amnesty, that you would not have gone to discuss this with him? MR PRETORIUS No, never. MR WAGENER Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Pretorius, just for the record, you sat in during the evidence that was led, or Mr Coetzee's evidence and the cross-examination by the various legal representatives? MR PRETORIUS That is correct. MR HATTINGH So you know exactly what my line of questioning was to him and you had the opportunity to think about it and to prepare yourself for similar questioning? MR PRETORIUS Well I do now know if there was an opportunity to prepare myself, but if you put it that way, I am ready for the cross-examination. MR HATTINGH Can I just start off with the last bit of evidence that was led? You said that you did not know Gen Engelbrecht, you would not approach him with certain requests for information about sensitive operations? MR PRETORIUS You are now talking about my career up until 1991. That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Now what about his predecessors, Gen van Rensburg, Nick van Rensburg, Gen Nick van Rensburg? MR PRETORIUS Well let me put it this way. I knew about him, I think I met him once in my life and that was at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH And what about Brig Schoon? MR PRETORIUS I did know Brig Schoon, yes. MR HATTINGH Would you have trusted them when you had, wanted to disclose sensitive information or wanted assistance? MR PRETORIUS As I have already testified in previous hearings, it did come up with Brig Schoon. MR HATTINGH But now you knew what Vlakplaas was. You knew it was an operational unit that was involved in violent attacks against the enemy. MR PRETORIUS I knew some of them were involved in it, but I knew their main purpose was the handling of askaris and the deployment of askaris. MR HATTINGH How did you know this? MR PRETORIUS Well, it was common knowledge ... was a place where arrested terrorists, whether PAC or ANC people were channelled through the Vlakplaas personnel. MR HATTINGH Were you involved in the Pantso incident? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR HATTINGH I think it was around '85. MR PRETORIUS The Pantso incident was in December '86, the 12th or the 13th of December. MR HATTINGH That was a long time before Bambo was shot and killed. MR PRETORIUS That's correct. MR HATTINGH I do know that Mr de Kock also was involved in this incident. MR PRETORIUS Yes, he was. MR HATTINGH And do you know why they were involved in this operation? MR PRETORIUS I can give an explanation to the Committee because it has already been said in front of the Amnesty Committee. There was an incident in the Eastern Transvaal that had nothing to do with Soweto. I think Head Office under the Command of Brig Schoon, arranged a meeting at the Middelburg Security Branch and Soweto was also approached to attend this meeting. MR HATTINGH What I would actually like to find out is that it was very clear that they were involved, because they were the experienced operational unit of the police. MR PRETORIUS I cannot speculate about that Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who took command of the Pantso operation and the execution thereof in Swaziland? MR PRETORIUS That is true, it was Mr de Kock who was the operational Commander. MR HATTINGH Because he was the Commander of the operational unit who had the experience for such operations? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I will accept it, otherwise they wouldn't have held that position. MR HATTINGH And we also know that the South African Police had a task force. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And these Task Force members were members who were trained to deal with emergency situations? MR PRETORIUS Yes, it was internally. MR HATTINGH And they were very well trained in the handling of weapons, explosives, etc. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH They were a very fit unit? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH There's nothing that the would have prevented the police from making use of the Task Force if it wasn't for the fact that it was a covert operation? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I will accept that. MR HATTINGH And you had to know them at that stage, that Vlakplaas was used at a later stage, or at that stage, to kill terrorists? MR PRETORIUS No, I did not have any knowledge of that. MR HATTINGH After the Pantso incident? MR PRETORIUS You now made a very general statement, so I also answered in a general way. MR HATTINGH Well after the Pantso incident you had to know about that. MR PRETORIUS Well after the Pantso, I was still not aware of any other incidents in which Vlakplaas was involved. MR HATTINGH The murder and the killing of people in Swaziland remains killing. MR PRETORIUS Yes, but it was one specific operation, it wasn't just a Vlakplaas operation, it was a Soweto operation, it was a Middelburg operation and it was a Vlakplaas operation, so where Mr Hattingh comes to the fact that it is a Vlakplaas operation is surprising to me. MR HATTINGH Well who was in command of this? MR PRETORIUS Well Eugene de Kock was, he was just a person. MR HATTINGH Let us not waste time. I want to put it to you that you were aware of the fact that Vlakplaas was used in operations like that. MR PRETORIUS I will deny it that I would have known about this. MR HATTINGH Did you ask questions after this operation was completed, about why they were involved in it? MR PRETORIUS It was not necessary for me to ask questions. I was at a meeting where Brig Schoon said: "This operation will be under the command of Mr Eugene de Kock". MR HATTINGH And why did he say that? MR PRETORIUS Mr Willem Schoon was the representative and the most senior officer and the Chairperson of the meeting. MR HATTINGH But why would he want Mr de Kock and his unit to take control or command of this operation? MR PRETORIUS Well, Sir, you'll have to ask that to Brig Schoon. MR HATTINGH Didn't you at a later stage ask some of your own members: "Why is de Kock now the Commander? Why can't we do it ourselves?" MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You just accepted it? MR PRETORIUS Yes, well it is an instruction from Head Office, from a senior Brigadier from Head Office. MR HATTINGH Then I will put it to you, I think it was after Brig Schoon, I think I've got it right, I just want to make sure. After Brig Schoon, he was the Commander of C1, C2 and C3, are you aware of that? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I'm convinced that it's right. MR HATTINGH And afterwards Brig van Rensburg took over, that was Nick van Rensburg. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And then Gen Engelbrecht followed. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I was not - I know that Krappies Engelbrecht followed or came there, but I'm not sure if he followed on Nick van Rensburg. I do not want to make any statements. MR HATTINGH I put it to you and you can accept it. MR PRETORIUS Yes, I accept it. MR HATTINGH Gen Johan van der Merwe was aware of the Pantso incident or operation. MR PRETORIUS That is correct yes. MR HATTINGH I'm talking under correction, but I think he may have given the instruction that the operation had to be launched. MR PRETORIUS I was not present at any - or let me put it this way - present where Gen van der Merwe gave the instruction, but I think in his amnesty hearing he did say that he did it, so I am aware that he did give the instructions. MR HATTINGH You as a trained policeman, experienced policeman, had to ensure that if Gen Engelbrecht is appointed to take over from people like Schoon and van Rensburg, that he has the trust from the Commissioner of the Police. MR PRETORIUS Yes, I'll accept it. MR HATTINGH Then why wouldn't you then trust him with sensitive information? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I said earlier on at a later stage, or I can quote an incident or let me just put it this way, before 1991 I can quote an incident, a bomb attack from the right wing in the Johannesburg area in 1994 and Engelbrecht will be able to testify about it, that I consulted him concerning this and I was the person who took out those bombs, so there I did share very sensitive information with him. MR HATTINGH Well why wouldn't you then share such sensitive information about the possible threat of disclosure? MR PRETORIUS Well, the Bambo - I never went to Krappies with this Bambo incident. MR HATTINGH But you did share very sensitive information with him. MR PRETORIUS Is this now with Krappies? MR HATTINGH Yes. MR PRETORIUS In 1994? MR HATTINGH 1994. MR PRETORIUS Yes, before the elections. MR HATTINGH Did you then trust him enough to share information with him? MR PRETORIUS I will put it that way, yes. MR HATTINGH Well what made you change your mind that now in 94 you can share confidential information with him, while in 1991 you weren't willing to do it? MR PRETORIUS In 1991 I did not know the General at all. In 94 I think, then the General, if I can, he was already three and a half years stationed at the Security Branch. MR HATTINGH How often did you have contact with him, personal contact with him? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I can maybe mention five cases where I met him. MR HATTINGH And were these cases where you actually shared sensitive information with him? MR PRETORIUS No they were cases where it was about the transferring of members and the decentralisation of members and of a specific informant, a black woman. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR HATTINGH None of these contacts would have created the impression that you could trust him. MR PRETORIUS No, I never said that. MR HATTINGH I know you didn't. MR PRETORIUS As I already said to you, after 1991 or let me qualify it further. In May '91 I was transferred to Security Headquarters in the D component, let us call it the Intelligence Office and only then during that time I got to know Krappies better. Maybe that will answer your question. And there I started trusting him, or I learned to trust him. MR HATTINGH But the fact that he had the trust of the Commissioner of the Police, did not play a role? MR PRETORIUS No, I did not doubt, or question, the Commissioner's decision. MR HATTINGH That is not what I put to you, Mr Pretorius. I'm asking you about the fact that he had trust in Engelbrecht who put him in that position and why didn't it create the feeling that: "If he's good enough for the Commissioner, he's good enough for me and I can trust him"? MR PRETORIUS Well, if I can maybe just mention another case with Basie Smit that was appointed, we all knew him and what I know is that I did not know him personally, but we were all scared of him, of Gen Smit because we never trusted Basie Smit and that was also an appointment done by the Commissioner of Police and I think Mr de Kock was one of the people who never trusted Basie Smit. MR HATTINGH Why do you say that? MR PRETORIUS Because Col de Kock mentioned it at various times to me. MR HATTINGH So you had a lot of contact with Mr de Kock. In what regard? MR PRETORIUS Sir, you can say I went to Vlakplaas a few times. MR HATTINGH With regard to what? ...(end of tape) MR PRETORIUS ... the present and Mr de Kock will recall that. The second case or opportunity was when I went to Nick van Rensburg's farewell function and I can recall these two functions that I attended and then from my information or Intelligence point it was the exchange of information with him and then the third opportunity was with the decentralisation of Vlakplaas members to Soweto. MR HATTINGH You never discussed operations in which you were involved with them? MR PRETORIUS If you say "in which we were involved" ... MR HATTINGH I'm talking about the Soweto Security Branch. MR PRETORIUS Information or Intelligence Operations, yes, I did discuss that with him. MR HATTINGH But actions of yours, or operations that you launched? MR PRETORIUS I think it was the Nceba incident, I did and I think that was, if you can just give me a second, in July 89, it was the Nceba incident and before the incident, approximately a week, two weeks before this incident I approached Mr de Kock at Vlakplaas and asked him if he can give me two askaris that I need in an Intelligence operation. MR HATTINGH The Nceba incident which you refer to, is this the one that we find on page 5, the second paragraph there? MR PRETORIUS That's it, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You wanted two askaris to do what? MR PRETORIUS I was with a flag operation and that is how I submitted my evidence during that hearing and during the flag operation I needed two askaris to assist with the flag operation it was an Intelligence operation. MR HATTINGH This Nceba operation? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that's correct. MR HATTINGH And eventually three people were killed? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Including Mr Nceba? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So what do you mean it was a flag operation? MR PRETORIUS Sir, if you had attended the hearing...(intervention) MR HATTINGH But I did not, maybe you should just tell the Committee what you mean by that. MR PRETORIUS You would have heard that this operation, it's an Intelligence operation that ran over some time and the deceased pressed us into a corner where at some stage we had to supply them with arms, handgrenades, AK47 and limpet mines that we had to show to them and after I borrowed the people from Mr de Kock, I decided to, specifically ...(indistinct) who is mentioned here, to use him to indicate the working of the arms to these Soweto Youth League members and the one step led to the next until we had no other choice but to basically, I do not know whether trap is the right word, but what it boils down to is that three people went to place these three doctored landmines and they pulled the detonators and one was killed and two of the members were shot dead. MR HATTINGH Let's not go into the details too much there, but it is sufficient for me to know that because of your actions, these three were killed, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And this was an internal operation? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So who, of Messrs Olifant and Bambo were involved there? MR PRETORIUS Only Mr Olifant. MR HATTINGH And you knew that there were close bonds between Mr Bambo and Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS I accept that. MR HATTINGH And you heard his evidence that he was like a brother and more to him? MR PRETORIUS I believe so Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Then you will accept that Mr Bambo, even though he was not involved in this operation, that he must have heard of it from Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS Sir I can assure the Chairperson, Olifant would have been very stupid if he spoke about it because I did not move a finger, I did not pull a trigger, but Mr Olifant pulled the trigger. Even if it was your bosom friend, you never in your life would have said that: "Listen here, I just killed a guy there somewhere", so I deny that statement and I reject it in totality. MR HATTINGH If Mr Olifant before this incident, or even afterwards, were involved in operations and they were responsible for the killing or injury of persons? MR PRETORIUS I don't know about that. MR HATTINGH Well, Mr Olifant said so. MR PRETORIUS In which cases was he involved? MR HATTINGH Mr Olifant testified that at the Umzimhlope Hostel they placed landmines, or limpet mines in kombis and on page two "At both places that night people were injured during explosions." According to him Mr Bambo was present. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, may I just point out that this incident which Mr Olifant refers to, was in 1987. This was not after the Nceba case. Nceba was 1989 so this was the case before that and then I deny as well as Mr Coetzee, this incident vehemently. The TRC a few months ago, called me from Cape Town and asked me to assist with this incident because they cannot find it and there were even reports in the newspaper about this incident, so I reject this evidence or this questioning note of Capt Liesk entirely. MR HATTINGH If Mr Bambo says it happened or if Mr Olifant says it happened, why would he and Bambo not discuss it, and other incidents, why would they not discuss other incidents? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson it's weird or strange that you did not ask these questions of Mr Olifant, I cannot answer those questions on behalf of Mr Olifant, maybe they spoke about it, but I doubt it. ADV BOSMAN Mr Pretorius, would you please talk slower, the interpreter is struggling to keep up with you? MR PRETORIUS I beg your pardon Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Your mike is not on Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH The third incident, on page 2 of Exhibit A, the explosion at the Jabulani, I think it was, amphitheatre during 1986. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH That took place? MR PRETORIUS That's correct. MR HATTINGH He says, Mr Olifant says that he and Mr Bambo were involved there. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson he's mistaken, he was there, but Adriano Bambo was not there. MR HATTINGH Why are you so certain about that? MR PRETORIUS Because I was there at the scene and it was actually, as you must have seen, it was the Military Special Forces that were involved in this operation and it was their operation. Mr Olifant and I basically just went along as Mr Willem said, just helped to carry out the container of petrol and I would have recalled if Mr Bambo was there, but he was not there. MR HATTINGH You are now confusing this incident with another one. CHAIRPERSON It's the Ipalageng incident where petrol was given. MR PRETORIUS The same was for the Jabulani amphitheatre, it was once again the same persons as in Mr Olifant's statement, it was Special Forces who executed that operation. It was also them who placed the charge of explosives there and detonated it and I and Manuel went along that evening to see that no-one else was in the vicinity and that unnecessary people were injured, but Bambo was not involved there. MR HATTINGH Was Mr de Jager there? MR PRETORIUS Yes, he was definitely there. MR HATTINGH And the person called Gustav? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson I cannot believe that Mr Gustav, that he was there. I know Mr Olifant mentioned him there, but he was definitely not there. I can say that in all certainty that he was not there. MR HATTINGH So why did you say first of all that you didn't believe he was there? MR PRETORIUS Because firstly he was not attached to our unit and what would he be doing there? MR HATTINGH So where was he attached to? MR PRETORIUS Security Branch, Soweto. I was with the Intelligence Unit of Soweto. MR HATTINGH And the person mentioned there, van Wyngaardt? MR PRETORIUS He was also from the Security Branch Soweto. MR HATTINGH Was he there? MR PRETORIUS Not at all. Not at all. I can assure you of that. MR HATTINGH Did you not sometimes work in conjunction with the Soweto Branch Security Branch? MR PRETORIUS Definitely Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So if that is so, why do you exclude those persons as persons who could not have been there? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, this was a highly top secret operation and the people from Pretoria always requested us that the identities, I want to say that they do not disclose those identities to the overt Security Forces. MR HATTINGH Once again there was a close bond between Mr Bambo and Mr Olifant and can you then exclude the possibility that they discussed the matter? MR PRETORIUS I cannot deny that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And if we can get to the fourth incident, this is where the petrol was used, the Ipalageng incident. What is your comment on that? MR PRETORIUS With regard to what, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH As to who was present there and who was not there. MR PRETORIUS Manuel was with me, members of Special Forces involved there Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you say once again Bambo was not there? MR PRETORIUS Definitely Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So why is Bambo excluded from such operations? MR PRETORIUS We were a large unit, there were many members who were excluded from many things. MR HATTINGH So is it only coincidental that he was not there? MR PRETORIUS No, it's not coincidental as I have told you that we were working with a covert group, Special Force operations, and it may be the reason why we did not want to admit him there, that may have been the reason, but in the same vein, we also had many other members under myself and Mr Coetzee's command whom we left out. MR HATTINGH Did you not trust Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS That's not what I said. MR HATTINGH But I'm asking you Mr Pretorius. Please, I'm not making a statement, I'm asking whether you did not trust him. MR PRETORIUS I trusted him. MR HATTINGH So you did trust him, so that was not the reason why he was not involved in the operations? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And that is why I'm asking you once again, is it co-incidental that it was every time Mr Olifant and not Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson as you must have heard what Mr Coetzee said, Mr Olifant, I want to say, maybe I want to use the words side-kick, and Mr Bambo was Mr Willem's side-kick, Mr Olifant was my confidant, where I went, Olifant went. MR HATTINGH And then may I just ask you as follows: With this Ipalageng incident, was Mr Coetzee there? MR PRETORIUS Let me just - I think he was there. I do not want to look at my amnesty application. MR HATTINGH Please have a look at it Mr Pretorius, if you cannot recall. MR PRETORIUS I know Mr Coetzee was involved in the incident, but the question you are asking is whether he was there, physically present at the scene. I don't want to say yes just like that, but if I recall correctly ... MR HATTINGH He earlier said that he was there. MR PRETORIUS Then that's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So if he was there, why was his side-kick not there? MR PRETORIUS I cannot comment on that, Chairperson, it's also true that one sometimes walked alone and we could only take along a limited number of people to the scene when we drove in one vehicle. MR HATTINGH Was he your senior, Mr Coetzee? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So his side-kick had to say and yours could come along? MR PRETORIUS I cannot comment on that, that's unfortunately how it happened, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Then I return to the third incident, the bomb explosion at Jabulani amphitheatre. Was Mr Coetzee present there? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, I can recall that somewhere this farm is mentioned, I want to say Vlakplaas, but it's not Vlakplaas, I think its Vlakfontein, that's the name yes. MR HATTINGH What did he do there? Why did he not go along on the operation? MR PRETORIUS Sir, once again, with this type of operation in Soweto and for that time and it was a flag operation, the more people we took along the greater the risk that we would get caught out so the movement of persons to Jabulani amphitheatre was limited to as few persons as possible. MR HATTINGH My note with regard to this third incident of the cross-examination of Mr Wagener to Mr Olifant, you did not cross-question Mr Wagener? CHAIRPERSON I don't recall you cross-examining Wagener, I think you mean Coetzee. MR HATTINGH What did I say Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON You said in cross-examination of Wagener. MR HATTINGH Mr Wagener's cross-examination of Mr Olifant. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I'm sorry. MR HATTINGH My note reads that you put it to him, this is my note, if I am incorrect I apologise, I made it cryptically. They were involved and you, but not Strongman. "They" refers to you and Coetzee. MR PRETORIUS That is so. That is what Mr Olifant said. MR HATTINGH Was he wrong? MR PRETORIUS I think so, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you recall what Mr Coetzee said? MR PRETORIUS Mr Coetzee was not there. MR HATTINGH But can you recall what he said? MR PRETORIUS No, not exactly, it's impossible for me to recall everything exactly. Mr Coetzee, what I can recall is that he said that you, Mr Hattingh can question me about it with regard to the Jabulani incident because he was not there at the scene himself. MR HATTINGH If I recall correctly Mr Wagener put it to Mr Coetzee that you heard my cross-examination of Mr Olifant and heard what I put to him, upon which he answered in the affirmative and thereafter he said that: "Do you confirm the statements that I made on your behalf to Mr Olifant" upon which he answered yes. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then if I am correct that Mr Wagener made the statement then it means that Mr Coetzee confirmed that he was indeed there. MR WAGENER Chairman no, not at all. If Mr Hattingh can help and say what he understands by the word "betrokke", because the word "betrokke", if you read Mr Coetzee's amnesty application in this regard, in my language he was "betrokke" but this is semantics. MR HATTINGH I haven't read Mr Coetzee's amnesty application, Mr Chairman. I don't appear for him, I was not involved in it. CHAIRPERSON No, ...(indistinct) before us. MR HATTINGH Yes, Mr Chairman, so I don't know what he said in his amnesty application, I only go according to what was put here and what was put here, third incident: "They were involved and you, but not Strongman." Then the witness must explain to me what Mr Coetzee should have explained, what he meant by involved. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's my note, I'm looking at it, not Strongman. MR HATTINGH Not Strongman, yes, Mr Chairman. I'm entitled to draw the inference, if it is put that they were involved, that they were involved in the carrying out of the operation and if that was not the intention, then it should have been made clear. CHAIRPERSON Certainly, I'll allow that question. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. So your are saying that Mr Coetzee was definitely not there? MR PRETORIUS Not at the scene Chairperson. He was on the farm, as we have already pointed out, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And Mr Bambo, where was he? MR PRETORIUS He was not there at all. MR HATTINGH Was he not with Coetzee at the farm? MR PRETORIUS No. MR HATTINGH Why are you so certain of that? MR PRETORIUS Because I would have remembered if he was there because with these types of operations, as in the case instance of Jabulani, we made sure that nobody else that evening, because these operations took place late at night, early hours of the morning. MR HATTINGH That no-one else - late in the evening, you're leaving the statement there, you said with this type of operations we made certain that we did not leave anyone there. What? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. As we have already said, I cannot recall the exact number of staff members at that stage who worked, but it could be easily between 20 or 30 staff members, if I must venture an estimation, who were not there. MR HATTINGH Can you tell us who were all there? MR PRETORIUS I know that what I do recall is myself, Mr Coetzee, Col de Jager, Mr Olifant and then it was Noel from the Army and the other person from the army, his name was Charl, if I recall correctly Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is that all? MR PRETORIUS That's all Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Are you certain? MR PRETORIUS That is what I can recall and that's what I'm certain of. MR HATTINGH So van Wyngaardt and Gustav were not there? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH With the fourth incident, that is now the Ipalageng incident, Mr Olifant says, and it would indicate to me that he is convinced of his facts, that the same persons were there except for Gustav and van Wyngaardt. He exempts them at this stage whereas he positively places them at the previous incident. MR PRETORIUS Sir, I cannot give reasons why Mr Olifant omits them, but as I have told you, they were not involved there. I know that for a fact. I drove in that vehicle. MR HATTINGH How many, or may I ask the question as follows: can you just off the top of your head tell me with regard to how many incidents you apply for amnesty? MR PRETORIUS Twelve, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And with regard to those twelve incidents, in how many of them was Olifant involved? MR PRETORIUS Will you just grant me a moment, or I can mention it as the Nceba case, the two Botswana cases, the one we've already received amnesty for, the second Botswana incident was the 14th of June 1985 operation in Botswana and then he and I went to Mrs Winnie Mandela's house, which we went together on and if I depend on my memory, then those are the incidents which I can recall and then this Jabulani incident, the Ipalageng matter and then I just want to make sure, there's one, but I cannot recall its name, it was not the professor's one, I want to have a look at his statement. I want to make sure on Mr Olifant's statement. MR HATTINGH So now you have to refresh your memory with Mr Olifant's statement. MR PRETORIUS I know which case it is. Mr Olifant was there, but I am trying to get the name. MR HATTINGH The name is not important, I just want to know the number of incidents. MR PRETORIUS And then there was the one where the handgrenades were at the Councillors' office, Mr Olifant was there. MR HATTINGH And in how many of those was Mr Bambo involved? MR PRETORIUS He was not involved in a single one of them. MR HATTINGH And in how many of them was Mr Coetzee involved? MR PRETORIUS With all of them. MR HATTINGH Once again his side-kick is not there, but your side-kick is there. MR PRETORIUS In this one specific instance that is here, the reason why I know he was not there, was because he was still in detention. Even Mr Olifant says that early in January 1986, if I recall correctly, Mr Bambo was still in detention. MR HATTINGH If you would grant me a moment Chairperson. Very well, can you recall the names of all the police officials or army officials who assisted you in all your operations, whether these be lawful or unlawful operations? MR PRETORIUS No, that is somewhat impossible to recall all of this. MR HATTINGH So why do you recall so well that Mr Bambo was not involved in these incidents? MR PRETORIUS Because these were serious incidents, criminal offences, where I was involved and I think I would have remembered if Mr Bambo was involved there. MR HATTINGH Why? Why would you recall that he was involved there? How many of his category persons worked with you? MR PRETORIUS Sir, it was actually three, it was him, Olifant and Peter Lengene. Further, other than that, the others were informers in the real sense of being informers. MR HATTINGH There's another name that I cannot recall here, let me just have a look. Big Boy, who is Big Boy? MR PRETORIUS He was an RS, a deep cover agent of the police. MR HATTINGH Was he involved in some of these operations? MR PRETORIUS Yes, amongst others the '83 Nokuthula Simelane incident Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And who was Manuel? MR PRETORIUS That's Mr Olifant, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was there no other Manuel, because it's Mr Olifant speaking here on page 1 of Exhibit A he says: "Big Boy took Manuel Peter Selamolela and Oscar." MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, that is Mr Olifant, that indicates that these are questioning notes that are taken down here. MR HATTINGH What do you mean, Mr Pretorius? MR PRETORIUS This is a manner of speaking, as Mr Olifant would speak. "Our source, Big Boy, took Manuel", he means himself, " to Peter Selamolela and Oscar". CHAIRPERSON No, no, but if I read it, our - he includes himself, Manuel. "Our source, Big Boy, took Manuel, Peter..." He's enumerating people. How could he say "our" and then he took "me", that's what it says, if I interpret your answer correctly. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, Mr Olifant is here. There was no other Manuel there, on the Intelligence Unit, in all the years that I rendered service there. MR HATTINGH Who is Selamolela? MR PRETORIUS He is Sgt Selamolela Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So he was a police officer there? MR PRETORIUS Yes, he was. MR HATTINGH Was he present during some of these operations? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And Oscar? MR PRETORIUS Oscar was a deep cover agent, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was he involved in some of these operations? MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Here Mr Olifant says Oscar was there. MR PRETORIUS This is the incident - this incident Sir, you will see here, this is the one I was looking for. I did not apply for amnesty for this thing because I do not know of this incident. I was not involved in that. On the contrary at the time when this incident took place, I was on explosive course at Maleeuskop for 6 weeks. And furthermore, just to assist you, you will see the time in his statement, which he attaches at the back, during that time I was doing a 6 week explosive course at Maleeuskop. MR HATTINGH I cannot recall what he said in his evidence, but I do not see that he mentioned you as a person who was present. MR PRETORIUS I think Mr Wagener asked him, Chairperson, and he conceded that I was not involved in that incident. MR HATTINGH So you would not know who was there if this incident had taken place? MR PRETORIUS That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who is Chris Hlatswayo? MR PRETORIUS That was S W T 180, he was an informer. MR HATTINGH Did he participate in operations? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, the Pantso matter and the Botswana incident. MR HATTINGH There's reference made in the statement to a Steenberg. MR PRETORIUS He is a retired Col Steenberg, that is where Mr Olifant and I were involved in the Nceba case. MR HATTINGH So he was involved there? MR PRETORIUS That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Tell me Mr Pretorius, when did you leave Soweto? MR PRETORIUS I left Soweto in May of 1991. I was transferred to D component Security Head Office, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And in March 1991 Mr Bambo was killed. MR PRETORIUS That is what we understand from the documents, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH When did Mr Coetzee leave Soweto? MR PRETORIUS January 1988, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH January 88? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR HATTINGH Where did he go to? MR PRETORIUS He went to Security Head Office. MR HATTINGH And from there? MR PRETORIUS He went to the East Rand MR HATTINGH Since then he was there? MR PRETORIUS No, from there - I beg your pardon Chairperson, he was transferred, I do not know the dates, but up until his retirement from the police force, he was at Security Head Office, Provincial Head Office in Randfontein, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You have heard Mr Coetzee's evidence that he asked Mr Olifant to contact Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Where was Mr Bambo at that stage? Where was Mr Olifant stationed at that stage? MR PRETORIUS If it was before 1991, he was with me at Soweto Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This would have been before his death, before March 1991? MR PRETORIUS Yes, we were still at Soweto Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr Bambo also? MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Bambo, ...(intervention) MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon, I made a mistake, I mean Mr Olifant, was he also still there? MR PRETORIUS Yes, he was with me Chairperson, but Mr Coetzee was no longer there. He had left a long time ago. MR HATTINGH Can you explain why is it that Mr Coetzee comes to ask Mr Bambo, or I beg your pardon, Olifant, to contact Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I speak under correction. Mr Olifant may be able to assist here, but I believe at that stage, Olifant and Bambo, I would not want to say the same house, but in Soweto there's a semi-house, semi-detached houses on the one side Mr Olifant and his wife lived and on the other side Strongman lived. MR HATTINGH Were this official police housing that was supplied to them? MR PRETORIUS Not in the entire sense, the house, briefly after they returned from Ovamboland, we arranged that house for them. MR HATTINGH And now Mr Bambo is discharged by Mr Coetzee. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH On what basis did he remain there? MR PRETORIUS I do not know whether he remained there, I cannot express any opinion there. MR HATTINGH My question was actually Mr Pretorius, can you explain, or please tell us, if you cannot tell us, can you explain that Coetzee was no longer at Soweto, came to your side-kick as you refer to him in Soweto and asked him to contact Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Sir, it was not uncommon for me, I know that Mr Coetzee on many occasions, would speak to Olifant or some of my other staff members who were with me and there was nothing wrong with that. MR HATTINGH Did he know you in this incident, or did he inform you about this incident when he wanted to speak to Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH He never told you about this? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. At the stage, I cannot recall the date, he told me that he asked Manuel to find Strongman, because Strongman was busy with crime. MR HATTINGH Did you not have that information? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Olifant not report to you that Mr Bambo had apparently been involved in criminal activities? MR PRETORIUS I don't believe so, Chairperson. What I believe by that, if they were such great mates, he would definitely not come and tell me, because he knew what my attitude was with regard to crime. MR HATTINGH Did you not hear it from any other persons who worked with you, informers and the like? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And Mr Coetzee told you that the man was involved in such activities. What was your reaction to it? MR PRETORIUS I do not want to say I was shocked because he had previously disappointed us, so it was not strange to me, because he had been convicted previously for armed robbery. MR HATTINGH And did you try to do something about it? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Here on page 6 of Exhibit A Mr Olifant says "I was approached by Pretorius and requested to keep and ear out for him" referring to Bambo. Do you dispute that? MR PRETORIUS No, I will not dispute that, I probably told him, listen here, try and find out where Strongman is and what's going on with him. I did not take any steps. MR HATTINGH So why would you direct such a request to him? MR PRETORIUS Probably because we knew the person and we wanted to know what criminal activities he was involved in and we cannot allow that someone who was with us becomes involved in crime. MR HATTINGH So are you saying that you directed this request to Mr Olifant after Mr Coetzee told you that Bambo had been involved in criminal activities? MR PRETORIUS That is how I recall it, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you were also concerned that Mr Bambo was involved in criminal activities? MR PRETORIUS That is so. MR HATTINGH And what did you want Mr Olifant to do in this regard? MR PRETORIUS As far as I can recall, I only told him to try and find out what Strongman was busy with, so that we can inform Mr Coetzee or someone else. MR HATTINGH And did Mr Olifant report to you? MR PRETORIUS Never, not what I can recall. MR HATTINGH Did you make enquiries? MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson. I didn't see any use, I gave him an instruction that if there was something, he would have come to tell me. MR HATTINGH So you just gave him instruction for the purposes of giving him instruction, so did you expect that the instructions should be carried out? MR PRETORIUS I expected him to carry it out because I can tell you that Mr Olifant, if he had something, he came to tell me that he had this, or he saw that. MR HATTINGH So he never gave any feedback to you? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you heard that he testified that he had succeeded in coming into contact with Mr Bambo, and he didn't tell you? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you also didn't ask him? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you were not really concerned with the activities of Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Not at all. MR HATTINGH So why, if you were not, or maybe I understood your answer incorrectly, are you saying so that you were not concerned, or are you saying that you were concerned? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I cannot say that I was not concerned at all in general, but I was concerned that this man was involved in criminal activities. I am a police official. Anyone involved in crime, then it upsets me. MR HATTINGH So while you were getting upset, you give this instruction and you do not follow it up? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. It was not an instruction, I asked him: "If you see him", I didn't say: "Listen here Manuel, can you go and look for Bambo?" That's an instruction. But if you meet up with him, or if you see him somewhere or he comes to your house, inform us about it. MR HATTINGH And then Mr Olifant continues "I was to pass the information on to them." So he understood that he was to give a report back to you. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And he continues and says "Pretorius told me that if he was caught, he would have to be killed, as he would talk like others were busy doing." MR PRETORIUS I deny that statement in totality. MR HATTINGH Were you concerned that if Mr Bambo was arrested that he could possibly speak out about operations where he was involved in, or that he knew of? MR PRETORIUS No, I was not concerned at all. MR HATTINGH Would you repeat that please. MR PRETORIUS As I've already said, I was not concerned that he could speak about something that could do damage to us. MR HATTINGH But now it's my question, why were you not concerned. MR PRETORIUS What could he have said? That we had detained Nokuthula Simelane? That's what he could have said and that we had recruited her. MR HATTINGH And according to him, she disappeared. MR PRETORIUS Ja, this afterwards, now everybody is saying she disappeared. As Mr Coetzee pointed out, then we had to face the consequences as we are here at the TRC. MR HATTINGH But at that time, you were not prepared to face the consequences. MR PRETORIUS How can you say something like that? How do you know whether I was not prepared to face the consequences? MR HATTINGH Mr Pretorius are you telling this Committee now in all earnest that it would not have concerned you if Mr Bambo went to speak out about your involvement in the Simelane case? MR PRETORIUS Sir, if he did, then he could have done so, but he didn't do it. I was not concerned about it. It wasn't even an idea with me that he might go and talk out. MR HATTINGH If he talked, it would have been a great embarrassment to you. MR PRETORIUS Yes, but the Security Branch was in trouble all the time, as it appeared later, many people went to speak out. People ran over to the ANC. The danger to us was not from the State, but our danger was from Umkhonto weSizwe. MR HATTINGH You're speaking about things that happened later. MR PRETORIUS No, I'm referring to the early 80's when a variety of our members was caught by the ANC. Mr Coetzee referred, there was in the newspapers, there were investigations, the media tried to find us, so we were not concerned about it. There were people who were still abroad, we could bring those people back safely to the RSA and so forth, and I can carry on. MR HATTINGH Let's not go on too much. Let's keep to my question. Are you trying to tell this Committee seriously that if you received information that he would speak out about Simelane, that you would not have worried about it? MR PRETORIUS But what could I have done, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Would it have concerned you? That's the question. MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I am not asking you what you would have done. MR PRETORIUS No, Sir, I would not have been concerned. MR HATTINGH So he could have spoken out if he wanted to, as far as it concerned you? MR PRETORIUS Yes, he could have. MR HATTINGH So what would you have done? Would you have admitted your involvement in that action? MR PRETORIUS Sir, that was a recruitment action, one of many. It is so that in today's time it's an unlawful arrest, or unlawful kidnapping or assault, but in our time, it was a recruitment action. CHAIRPERSON You need to answer the question just properly, we would not take a long time. Listen to Mr Hattingh and just respond to what he's saying. MR HATTINGH That is not the answer to my question, Mr Pretorius. My question is, if he went to speak out about Ms Simelane's abduction and unlawful detention, would you have admitted your involvement, or would you have tried to cover up as you, according to the evidence of Mr de Kock you did, when I say you I refer to the Security Police in general, with the Harms Commission. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I was never involved in any cover-up of any evidence or any witnesses. The Intelligence Unit was not Vlakplaas. Vlakplaas was the name, was the moon and the Security Branch was the sun, that is how far they were . CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, may I just come in? Mr Pretorius, you must also follow the flow of the questions. He asked you about if Bambo had spoken, you said it wouldn't concern you and then he says to you, "Would you have admitted that if you were approached with that information given?" It's a simple question really. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, but then Mr Hattingh, says in general, like the Security Branch killed people ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, no, no, but this was just honed on Bambo and Simelane, or did I not understand it correctly? Really, that's how I followed it. He was asking about Bambo and Simelane and then you said if he spoke you were not concerned and then he says if you were now approached with that, would you admit that you kidnapped Simelane? It's simple, really. That's how I followed Mr Hattingh really. MR PRETORIUS Will he put the question to me again please? MR HATTINGH Certainly. If Mr Bambo went to go and speak out about how you had abducted Ms Simelane and had detained her and you were approached by police officials who were investigating those allegations, would you have admitted it, or would you have denied it? MR PRETORIUS I would have denied it, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Why? MR PRETORIUS Just. MR HATTINGH No, please Mr Pretorius, just is not an answer. Why would you have denied it? MR PRETORIUS As you have said, in that time I would have denied it firstly. MR HATTINGH And tried to cover up. MR PRETORIUS No, not cover up. MR HATTINGH So what do you do when you deny? MR PRETORIUS Then technically it must be so Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And in the meantime you are getting upset when I just make a suggestion about covering up. MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson, as I have said, I was never involved in any cover up. MR HATTINGH But you were prepared to do it, if it would protect your interests? MR PRETORIUS I protected the interests of the State. MR HATTINGH So you were prepared to do it if it protected the interest of the State? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you could have also been charged with abduction and unlawful detention of a person if it came to light? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We'll take the lunch adjournment and we'll come back at quarter to Two, is that okay with everybody? Thank you. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ANTON PRETORIUS (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (cont.) Mr Pretorius, in a follow-up to the topic that we dealt with before the lunch break, I'd like to put it to you that your unit, the Intelligence Unit, whether as a unit or in co-operation with the Security Police, it was also your modus operandi to get rid of evidence of criminal activities. MR PRETORIUS I do deny it very strongly. MR HATTINGH Let me then refer you to the Nceba incident, on page 5 of Exhibit A. I do not want to deal with the details of this, I don't know if it still will be heard or not, what was done with the body? MR PRETORIUS We dropped it off. MR HATTINGH Where did you drop it off? MR PRETORIUS In the Rustenburg direction, I cannot recall the specific place. MR HATTINGH Did you just leave it there, drop it off there? MR PRETORIUS No, we burned it. We set it alight. MR HATTINGH Why? MR PRETORIUS So that they cannot find us. MR HATTINGH Is that not then the removal of proof? MR PRETORIUS In that context, yes. Yes, of course. MR HATTINGH And after the body was burned, did you just leave it there? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you go and bury it? MR PRETORIUS No, not where I was involved in. MR HATTINGH But did you hear that they did that? MR PRETORIUS No. There was a suggestion made, but I was not involved with it. MR HATTINGH You will not succeed in completely burning out three bodies so that there's no trace afterwards. MR PRETORIUS I never went back to the scene after that specific evening. MR HATTINGH Can you recall if it was mentioned in the media that there were - three bodies were found, burned out bodies were found? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, no. Can I just tell the Committee, they never mentioned three, there were only two bodies. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairperson. If we now look at page 6 of Mr Olifant's statement. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH In the first paragraph he said "We removed the corpses from the Husky, we smeared them with oil, poured them with petrol and lit it. Pretorius put on the matches. We all came back. I heard that Coetzee and Pretorius returned to fetch the bones the next day." MR PRETORIUS During the hearing it came up that Mr Olifant, after the investigative unit of the Attorney-General went to go and identify the scene, the Attorney-General already had the bones, so I do not know where we removed the bones, and I therefore deny that statement as a whole. MR HATTINGH Very well. Let's look at page 31 of Exhibit A. Here Mr Olifant, in paragraph 119 says "Approximately two weeks before the incident, Capt Coetzee phoned me and informed me in a group that the police are looking for me relating to this specific incident. Capt Coetzee laughed and told me that I shouldn't worry and that they arranged for everything. That was the last time that I ever heard of this incident again." Do you know what he's talking about there? MR PRETORIUS Sir, I would just like to ensure, I'm not quite sure what incident he's referring to. MR HATTINGH We are referring to the Nceba incident. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, that once again came up in the hearing of Nceba, that once again Mr Olifant made a serious mistake by implicating Mr Coetzee. He was not involved in this incident at all. MR HATTINGH But he does not implicate him in this paragraph, all that he is saying is that Coetzee told him that there was an enquiry and that he shouldn't worry. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, as I have already mentioned in Nceba hearing it came up that Mr Coetzee never had any knowledge of this incident when I applied for amnesty, so he couldn't have known about this. MR HATTINGH Let me just refer you to something else as an example of what I mentioned before, that is paragraph 115, that is page 30, paragraph 115. I think it is about the landmine incident. MR PRETORIUS It is the same incident Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Yes, it is the same incident, you are correct. Then in paragraph 115 he says "Linda informed us that the landmine that Elias set did not go off and that he shot him. Manyane informed us that the Castro Mine did not go off and that he shot him." The point that I'd like to make here is that the members who were involved in operations, did talk about it to other members. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Sir, these are the members who were involved in this operation. MR HATTINGH But the one was not there when the other one was shot. MR PRETORIUS If I can explain it to the Committee, Mr Chairperson, it was one operation that had three concurrent legs that took place at different places, but it all happened at the same time. MR HATTINGH Yes, that is the point that I'm making. The one on point B does not know what the others are doing on point C. MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is with the report-back or feedback on the farm Guys, where the feedback was done, or the report was done to me, or was given to me as the three respective teams. I was involved in one of the teams and as we came back, we went back to Guys, all the teams reported back to me and everybody there heard about it, so it was not a shop talk situation, it was a feedback situation. MR HATTINGH Were you at New Canada, or Nancefield? MR PRETORIUS I was not there, I was at the Klipspruit one. MR HATTINGH Just as you now conceded that evidence was removed in this instant, I also assume that it has happened before in other operations in which you were involved in? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I think this is the only case where an operation went wrong. If I can interpret it in that way, where we had to cover up our involvement in this operation. MR HATTINGH And if a policeman had approached you concerning this incident and said to you: "Look I've got information and I know that you killed people", would you have denied it? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would have. MR HATTINGH And this is why I'm putting it to you, Mr Pretorius, that if - that it was very important to you that Mr Bambo shouldn't talk about the operations in which you were involved in. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I've already said that it was not a concern to me because the operations about which he could talk about were minor operations, according to my opinion. ADV SANDI But were you not concerned that he could possibly talk about things he was not necessarily involved in, things which had been told to him by Olifant, or whoever? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, with all respect, if I wanted to harm people, I think it would have been Mr Olifant, he knew far more, he was involved in physical murders in the country. Bambo was never involved with me in any such violent operations, so what danger did he hold for me? CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MR HATTINGH But you're not answering Adv Sandi's question. He's not just asking what operations he was involved in, but also where he heard from other members, what he could have heard from other members. MR PRETORIUS Well, Mr Chairperson, I was not aware of that, that is why he held no danger for me. I never saw any danger in him. CHAIRPERSON Did you know what they were discussing at this safehouse when he was next door to Olifant? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, if I can just explain myself as follows. I do not deny the fact that he and Manuel could have talked about it or discussed this. CHAIRPERSON And besides they were bosom friends, Mr Olifant said: "He was more of a brother to me". MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, so Mr Linda Monde could have told the whole of Vlakplaas what happened and I think that's what he did. He did tell the whole Vlakplaas about what happened in the Nceba incident, so I had to do something about the whole of Vlakplaas then. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. So you do admit that some of your members did talk out about some of the operations in which they were involved in? MR PRETORIUS It's logical, yes. MR HATTINGH And so for example, there's at least a theoretical possibility that Mr Bambo could have spoken out about the three people who were involved in the three mine attacks, of which two were killed? MR PRETORIUS I do not have such knowledge, that Mr Bambo knew about this incident. MR HATTINGH But you also do not have information that he did not know about this? MR PRETORIUS Yes, that is correct. ADV SANDI Didn't you and Mr Coetzee talk to each other about things you were separately involved in? MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Okay, thank you. MR HATTINGH Very well. In your evidence you said that Bambo had some undisciplined actions or characteristics in him, will that not then enforce the suspicion that he will then come forward and talk about operations in which he was involved in, or in which you were involved in? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, if I am talking about the undisciplined actions of him, it doesn't fall in that category, no. MR HATTINGH Are you talking about physical undisciplined actions? MR PRETORIUS Well Mr Chairperson, he made use of alcohol a lot, he used unauthorised vehicles, he did not pitch up for work and when Mr Coetzee told him, for example, to "ensure that you're at the scene to look after the office", he will not pitch up and we never knew where he was and that's the type of undisciplined action I'm talking about. MR HATTINGH Now we know that it's a well-known fact that the use of alcohol does loosen the tongue and that you can be or act irresponsibly when you have taken a lot of alcohol and that there are certain things that you will say when you are drunk, that you won't usually say when you're sober. That didn't bother you, the fact that he could have then disclosed certain things about your operations. You also talk about other people knowing about the operations. You said you would have rather have killed Olifant, but he was not part of that. MR PRETORIUS That's correct. MR HATTINGH But he was not part of that, while Mr Bambo is in prison awaiting the trial for serious crimes like murder and robbery? MR PRETORIUS Yes, the same with Phineas Motsualiba that Mr Coetzee mentioned and he was, I think, with Mr Coetzee and myself since 1982 and when I applied for amnesty I also heard that Mr Coetzee and others, of which Phineas was included, were involved in an operation where Mr de Kock was also involved, that was in Swaziland and we did nothing to him. MR HATTINGH Let us just hear, when was he arrested? MR PRETORIUS I cannot say exactly when, but I think it was during the time when we applied for amnesty that he was arrested. MR HATTINGH Well then his case is very different from Mr Bambo. Now you are going to talk about yourselves in this amnesty process, he's not a risk for you anymore because you are going to disclose it yourself. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson if I can put it as follows: If Mr Bambo, or if I were to be part of the planning to kill Mr Bambo, I would have applied for that. MR HATTINGH You are once again not answering my question, you are talking about the other person as an example of a person who is in jail and could have disclosed certain facts, but I'm talking now about after you've decided to apply for amnesty and to make a full disclosure, he still did not hold any risk. MR PRETORIUS I cannot say it. I do not know what he knew, I do not know what he recalled, he could have come forward with a load of stories. MR HATTINGH Were you scared that he could have disclosed certain incidents for which you did not apply for amnesty and if he could have talked about things that he - so there's no risk of him being in jail while he could not have disclosed anything about incidents for which you did not apply for amnesty. If I have got my notes in order, the last operation in which you and Mr Bambo were involved in, I think I wrote December 1988 or January 1988. MR PRETORIUS If I'm talking about an operation, Mr Chairperson, maybe I expressed myself in the wrong way. I'm talking about physical contact within the work context, this is now with Adriano Bambo. Afterwards he never, in his official capacity, made contact with me. MR HATTINGH But did you not want to then disclose by saying that because you were involved, you haven't been involved with him for so long, there's nothing that he could really disclose about you? What were these operations in which you were involved with him? MR PRETORIUS It was only one operation. It was the 83, September 83 - I cannot recall the name now. It was Nokuthula Simelane incident. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MR HATTINGH I'm asking you, what was the operation in which you were involved with him, you said in January or December 1988. MR PRETORIUS I did not say an operation Mr Chairperson, I meant it was the last time that I had any contact with him in a work context. MR HATTINGH My note says the last operation. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, maybe I expressed myself in the wrong way, it was not an operation. I meant it was the last time that I had contact with him and that's the last time. You will recall Mr Chairperson when Mr Coetzee and his component were transferred to Pretoria, that was the last time that I had any contact with Adriano Bambo. So it was not an operation. MR HATTINGH Let us get to this discussion that you said you had with Mr Olifant which he discusses on page 6 of Exhibit A. MR HATTINGH You say that you did have a discussion about Adriano Bambo. MR PRETORIUS About Adriano Bambo, yes. MR HATTINGH Was that after Mr Coetzee told you that he asked Olifant to contact Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Now while Mr Coetzee already said it, why do you repeat this request? MR PRETORIUS Well Mr Chairperson, I did not mean anything by it. We've learned out of experience that in working with these people that you can say something like that about 50 times and they still forget it. MR HATTINGH Did you want him to ask Bambo to make contact with you? MR PRETORIUS As I have already said to you, Mr Coetzee told me that he had information that Mr Bambo was involved in criminal activities and I think you asked me if I knew anything about it and then I said no, I do not know anything about it, I do not see this person, but I'll ask Manuel, this is now Mr Olifant. So I asked Olifant if he knew anything about it. MR HATTINGH Didn't he then tell you that he already asked Olifant about it? MR PRETORIUS I accept that he would have told me this, but then I would have repeated it. MR HATTINGH So you just wanted him to be on the lookout for Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, and to come and tell myself of Mr Coetzee if he saw the person, or if he can confirm that Mr Bambo was involved in these criminal activities. MR HATTINGH But couldn't you just ask him to tell Mr Bambo to come and see you so that you can personally question him? MR PRETORIUS Well I did not have the information, I would not have been able to ask him anything. If I can explain this to the Committee, if I would have asked Mr Bambo to come and see me, I wouldn't have had to send him to Mr Coetzee, it wouldn't have been a good exercise. MR HATTINGH Is that all that you are now saying that you told Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS At that stage, yes. MR HATTINGH Did you ask him more at a later stage? MR PRETORIUS If we are looking now specifically at the Bambo case, that is where the newspaper article explained that Mr Bambo was involved in robbery and that he escaped and that's where I spoke to Mr Olifant. MR HATTINGH What was the discussion at that stage? MR PRETORIUS As I have already testified earlier on, Mr Chairperson, I was concerned about the safety of the people who would then attempt to arrest Mr Bambo, because I knew that Adriano Bambo was a fighter and I was also worried about him, that he would be killed in the process. MR HATTINGH So I understand you correctly now that at two opportunities you had a discussion with Mr Olifant concerning Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, there was also a third instance. MR HATTINGH Can you then mention that? MR PRETORIUS In this case I can specifically recall Mr Olifant came to me with a newspaper article and he asked me if I heard that Adriano Bambo is dead and I then told him, or asked him, "What do you mean?" He said: "No, he attempted to escape and he was killed." MR HATTINGH Very well. Let us leave the last incident. Let us deal with the second one that you now mention, this is now when there was an article in the newspaper informing or saying that Mr Bambo attempted to escape, but now you're not worried about him, but about people who would try to arrest him, what did you do about this? MR PRETORIUS If my recollection is correct, I contacted Mr Coetzee and asked him if he knew about this escape and I think I informed him about what the article said. MR HATTINGH And what did you think, what would he be able to do about it? MR PRETORIUS I think that he also expressed his concern. MR HATTINGH I understand the concern, Mr Pretorius, but what could you do about it? MR PRETORIUS Nothing, our hands were tied, we couldn't do anything about it. MR HATTINGH My notes about your evidence concerning this reads as follows "All fear was for Bambo's life, that if he pulled, drew a weapon and he was cornered, there would be a lot of trouble." So you were worried about his life? MR PRETORIUS Well, Sir, if you knew somebody and you worked with him for a few years, you do not want to see him killed. MR HATTINGH Now you had this discussion about his escape and you just expressed your fear about what could happen afterwards. Did you ask Mr Olifant to do anything about this? MR PRETORIUS Sir, I cannot recall if I asked him to do something specifically. Maybe I asked him if he knew where Mr Bambo was. MR HATTINGH You have heard Mr Coetzee's evidence and although Mr Olifant said that Mr Bambo will change addresses, that he, Coetzee, will still be able to find him, if he wanted to meet with him and then if he wanted to meet with him. MR PRETORIUS I heard what Mr Coetzee testified. MR HATTINGH Did you have the same capacity to do that? MR PRETORIUS Only through Mr Olifant yes. MR HATTINGH Did you do anything to trace him? MR PRETORIUS No, I did not take any physical steps to try and trace him. MR HATTINGH Why not, in the light of the fact that you had certain fears? MR PRETORIUS Well I did not take any physical steps, but what I did do is that I believe I told Mr Olifant that look, if you do see this person, tell him or we'll have to try and do something to prevent him from getting into some kind of fight. MR HATTINGH What did you have in mind, what would you be able to do? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, at the end of the day we could have used Mr Olifant to convince him to give himself up, hand himself over or we could have taken him to the Investigative Officer or something in that light and that is what I had in mind. MR HATTINGH If it was possible for you to get hold of him through Mr Olifant, why didn't you then try to do it? Earlier today you said that crime is unacceptable for any policeman. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, it was not my duty to chase after robbers, I was busy dealing with Umkhonto weSizwe matters to get hold of MK members, so it was not my function and as I said, I believe that if I told Mr Olifant: "Look, try and get hold of this guy and see if we can assist him", that is a normal action of an old Commander, or former Commander. MR HATTINGH This discussion with Mr Olifant, concerning Mr Bambo, did this happen before or after the disbanning of the ANC? MR PRETORIUS Sir, I cannot say, I know that the disbanning took place on the 2nd of February, 1990 but I cannot say in all honesty if it was before or afterwards. MR HATTINGH And Mr Bambo was killed in March 1991. MR PRETORIUS Sir, just to explain what knowledge I had, the day with the consultation with Mr Wagener, I heard for the first time in my life, or saw the dates during which Adriano was arrested and I heard then for the first time that he was rearrested and sentenced for a 12 month period and that he was held in prison. Apart from the newspaper articles, I never heard anything else. MR HATTINGH Did you then get the details afterwards, of dates? MR PRETORIUS Are you now talking about after I consulted with Mr Wagener. MR HATTINGH Yes. MR PRETORIUS Yes, we looked at the post-mortem inquest of Mr Koekemoer. MR HATTINGH Yes, that now gives you the date on which Mr Bambo was killed. Could you determine the date on which he escaped? MR PRETORIUS Sir, I think we didn't see anything in that line, I'll have to go back to the documents, because I'm now talking about a month or two ago when this happened, when I looked at these documents. MR HATTINGH Did you, after the disbanning of the ANC, still continue to, if I can put it in a simple way, hunt MK members? MR PRETORIUS Yes, we continued up until 1994. If you say hunt, from my perspective it would be to get information. MR HATTINGH I did not mean it in a literal way, I meant it in a more figurative way. Mr Olifant never returned to you to try and find out if you could get hold of him? MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH How often did you and Mr Coetzee have contact with each other after he left the Soweto branch? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, there were opportunities, as I said. May 1991, I went to Security Headquarters and there were certain opportunities where there were co-ordinating meetings that took place in the Witwatersrand and that's where I met Mr Coetzee. There were a few opportunities where these information co-ordinating meetings were held at his residence. MR HATTINGH His residence? MR PRETORIUS Yes I think it was somewhere in the mid-Rand. MR HATTINGH And how often did you make contact with him after you returned to Soweto, after Headquarters? MR PRETORIUS I never went back. MR HATTINGH When did you leave the Soweto branch? MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, I left in May 1991 and I went to W Section in the H Q. MR HATTINGH I'd just like to refresh my memory. When did he leave? MR PRETORIUS I think it was in January 1988. MR HATTINGH And was this while you were working in Soweto and how often did you have contact with him in the work context? MR PRETORIUS I would say not often because he went to Headquarters, or Head Office and he dealt with a different field concerning information and intelligence. MR HATTINGH So your fields did not really coincide or cross? MR PRETORIUS Then at co-ordinating meetings at Head Office, or maybe in a different district, we would meet... MR HATTINGH But not at the Soweto branch? MR PRETORIUS No, I did not say that, Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzee did come to Soweto. MR HATTINGH How often? This is now before you left. MR PRETORIUS If I take a guess, I would say once a month. I would also not say every month. MR HATTINGH Wasn't it strange that you'd go there to make contact with Mr Olifant and have discussions about Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS I was not present where he spoke to Mr Olifant and I do not think evidence was led that said where it was, I don't know if it was at the farm, or wherever. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Olifant ever report back to your Headquarters, or Head Office? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Concerning what? MR PRETORIUS There were certain matters in which Mr Coetzee asked and we did make use of each other's assistance and maybe this can answer your question, he asked me a few times too if he could maybe make use of Manuel to transport that informer from point A to B and I never had a problem with that. MR HATTINGH In conclusion I will put it to you Mr Pretorius that you and Mr Coetzee did fear, after the arrest of Mr Bambo and with the knowledge of further hearings to be held, that he may disclose certain operations in which you were involved in and because you feared this, you conspired with Mr Koekemoer and Gen Engelbrecht to kill him. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson I deny it very strongly and I would like to conclude it with the following. Mr Chairperson, Mr Hattingh never asked me if I knew Mr Koekemoer. For the first time, I only met Mr Koekemoer in 1994, the beginning of 1994 and before that I never knew him. MR HATTINGH When was that? MR PRETORIUS 1994, I met him at a co-ordinating meeting. MR HATTINGH It still could have happened that you and Mr Coetzee decided to make a plan to get rid of this man and he could have taken over the planning and he could have made this plan. MR PRETORIUS Well I do deny it. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairperson. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, there's something that is worrying me. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Let me clear it up with you right away before I give somebody else an opportunity to cross-examine. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This Exhibit A by Mr Olifant. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If I understand the evidence, is that he was approached and there was a threat of prosecution upon him. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON And if you look at Exhibit A, he's incriminating himself extensively, wouldn't you agree? MR PRETORIUS I agree with that, yes. CHAIRPERSON And my reading of the Exhibit is that he does say in certain instances, Mr Strongman Bambo, Adriano Bambo was not involved. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON And he mentions instances where Bambo was involved and mentioned amongst other people, yourself and Mr Coetzee. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON Now listening to your evidence is that all these incidents other than Simelane, he was not involved, but Olifant was involved. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. I think I attempted to show this Committee that Mr Olifant, as you conceded, I think, in many instances he was told what to say by the Attorney-General's office. Secondly Mr Olifant had two opportunities, if I can recall correctly, made mistakes in this statement. First of all he involved Mr Coetzee and the Nceba incident in such a serious manner, that Mr Coetzee had to issue a warning statement through the Attorney-General's office and he was never near the Nceba incident. The second, clearly under cross-examination he had to admit and that was his third paragraph, that is the ...(indistinct) house incident and according to his statement, he is trying to make it out as if I was involved in it and I'm telling you now, Mr Chairperson, I was not because I was on an explosives course at Maleeuskop, so he already made two mistakes, so it is possible that he could have made the same mistake with Adriano Bambo. CHAIRPERSON We have heard evidence that this was a brave man. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And some of the incidents undertaken needed a brave man, wouldn't you agree with me? I'm just talking about the Exhibit A and nothing else. MR PRETORIUS Yes, as in the Simelane case, Mr Chairperson, Strongman was also physically very strong, that is why we used him as a guard, he's a very strong man. CHAIRPERSON And according to Mr Coetzee, he was identified whilst he was still in South West Africa, that this is a brave man. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And it would appear when he got to Soweto, he was under utilised, if not utilised at all, in operations. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, I personally had a problem with this fact that Mr Bambo was present. We could not really make use of him, he was a fighter, he's a person that just wanted to fight. He comes from a fighting background and in Soweto there weren't that many fights. CHAIRPERSON Oh no, how could you say that because Soweto was in flames after 76, how could you say that? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson, I do agree with you, but the instruction that I know, Mr Coetzee got from the then Brig van Rensburg was that he must work with Mr Willem. If Mr Willem worked at the terrorist unit in Soweto, then I would say yes, Mr Bambo was at the right place because these were the people who, if terrorists were found in houses, they got involved in fighting and not us at the Intelligence service. CHAIRPERSON And after 1985, the infiltration into South Africa by the so-called terrorists was intensified as well. MR PRETORIUS Once again you're right. CHAIRPERSON And you said it yourself that your duty was to fight the ANC and I suppose by that you meant the MK cadres who infiltrated the country? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Mr Chairperson. If I can just qualify that. If I say fighting I mean that we were an Intelligence service, our task was to fight the onslaught of MK, whether in Durban, Zambia, Angola and we were involved in the information in that whole spectrum, we were the intelligence or information centre. CHAIRPERSON Then when I listen to the evidence, but my concern is just this, his killing and this hearing, is that he is issued with a firearm, but he's never utilised to carry any operation, but he has a firearm. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, we all at the Intelligence Unit, had various weapons. We also had our fears. As I maybe have mentioned earlier on in my evidence that there were people who sold us out to the ANC. We lived outside of Soweto, very isolated areas, we worked till 2 or 3 o'clock in the mornings, we did not have uniformed members who protected us, we had to make use of our own protection, we had to ensure that we do not become a target of the MK, more specifically then. CHAIRPERSON Not to take the thunder away from the other legal representatives, what strikes me as odd, I may be mistaken, my mind is not made up, that's why I say I want to clear it with you from the outset, so that I know what the evidence is going to, is that listening is that other people may be forgotten who were involved, but definitely not Bambo, it worries me. Bambo is remembered specifically but not the other people who were involved in operations. How come this? MR PRETORIUS Who recalled him specifically, Mr Chairperson? I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON I say you recall him specifically, that he was not involved. Because if you take away Simelane, he was not involved at all. I say Bambo is not involved at all in all these incidents if we take just the Simelane one away. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, as I have said before with the other incident, I do know for a fact that Mr Bambo was still in prison, so he couldn't have been present and then the other incidents, I do know for a fact that Mr Bambo was not present, because I was at the scene and we were a very small group and if Mr Bambo was present, I would have definitely have seen him and remembered him. CHAIRPERSON No, I've taken cognisance of the fact that he was in prison and if I read what you called notes, is that Mr Olifant speaks from 1986, when he was released, that he was involved and what we know is that he was taken back. MR PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, there are only two incidents, that the Ipalageng incident, in which I was involved and the Jabulani Amphitheatre incident where, a credibility operation and Ipalageng, where we wanted to prevent them from continuing having meetings, myself and Mr Olifant were at those meetings and I cannot recall anything about Mr Bambo being involved in any of those meetings and I stick to my view point that maybe Mr Olifant made a mistake as he made previous mistakes, but Mr Bambo was not involved in any of those matters. CHAIRPERSON Were people like van Wyngaardt and Gustav not members of the South African Police? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if thus far, I may be mistaken, that they were not attached to the Soweto unit. MR PRETORIUS Intelligence Unit. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were not attached? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he says so, he says: "People from outside, van Wyngaardt for instance, Gustav, who were not attached to us, came and assisted. He remembers such things. That's what worries me, that how could he make a mistake about his bosom friend, because if, for instance, he was - I'm not saying I'm believing this document, if he was an out and out liar, he would have said Bambo in all the incidents, because the man is dead, he can't answer for himself. MR PRETORIUS I'm not certain that Mr Olifant, or Mr Olifant and Mr Bambo had close bonds to each other, but the circumstances under which these notes were made, it's literally somebody puts a pistol to your head and I would have admitted anything then just to get away. Mr Olifant here said it himself. He would have done anything just to stay out of prison and not to be deported back to Mozambique, because he's a Mozambican by birth, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Wouldn't the tenor, or the sentiment he was expressing, that look, when I approached my seniors and said: "Hey, we are also covering our backs, see what you can do" and he was faced with this prosecution, he said: "I have no chance, let me make a clean breast, let it take whatever turn it does take, I'm not protected now." MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, maybe I should just correct the scoreboard here. I think Mr Coetzee and I, basically I think for a half a day I was in detention, long before Mr Olifant, I was in a much more serious situation than Mr Olifant found himself in, but I didn't drop any names and I'm convinced that Mr Olifant here did some name dropping here, a name that came up by him, he mentioned it, it was indicated in the Nceba incident where he involves Mr Coetzee in this serious crime, three persons were murdered. He involves Mr Coetzee there and he involves me in another incident that I deny in totality because I was not here, I was in Maleeuskop, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But would you say for instance, the names he mentions here, Big Boy, Peter, Sgt Selamolela, Oscar, Adriano, not members of your unit? MR PRETORIUS They were members of my unit Chairperson but this is the incident where I was not present. I did not apply for this one. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I'm not asking about what you have applied for or not, I said were the people I've just mentioned not members of your unit? MR PRETORIUS They were, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And if you go through the statement, it does not necessarily just include them. He does not necessarily say: "Because we consisted of so many, whenever we went on an operation, everybody was there", he doesn't do that, but where he was involved, he says: "I was involved and these are the people who are involved" and in one instance he said: "I am not sure here whether it was Oscar or Mandla who was involved in that incident", do you recall that? He's not sure and wouldn't you say that is honesty? MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson, because here Mr Olifant, when he made this statement, he was prepared to take the oath. He was prepared to swear on this statement of his that Mr Coetzee was involved in the Nceba incident and he made a mistake, it was a big mistake. CHAIRPERSON And if you look at the statement of ...(indistinct) you say you only knew in 1994. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If you have regard to it, is that no member of your unit could be prosecuted on such a statement. MR PRETORIUS I do not understand the question, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I say if you look at it, he includes nobody. He says just: "I received information". Let me find it for you. ADV BOSMAN May I just put it to you in Afrikaans? What the Chairperson is trying to ask you is if you studied Mr Koekemoer's statement. In Koekemoer's statement there is no incrimination of anybody in your unit. MR PRETORIUS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And wouldn't you say it's surprising that he received information, I'm asking you just for your opinion here, that Grimbeek is the man who is investigating Bambo, he knows nothing about these guns, but somebody else, whom he cannot recall, tells him this guy has hidden guns somewhere. You know this is a big, big jigsaw puzzle, what on earth he said here. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I cannot comment on that, but the little that I heard here was that Mr Koekemoer said that the prison authorities called their office with regard to this man and that it was basically, it would sound like it was a procedure that he had to fetch the deceased, but I cannot comment on this. What I am saying now is only speculation. CHAIRPERSON I'm just saying this to indicate my confusion. MR PRETORIUS I understand Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Mr Pretorius, no-one testified that Olifant was under tremendous pressure to make Exhibit A, it was only said, or it was jokingly indicated that if you do not co-operate then you will have to polish Coetzee's shoes in prison. MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson I will just qualify. Just briefly after Mr Olifant - briefly after this Capt Liesk threatened him at his house, he ran back to me and this was already after I had been suspended from the South African police, the Liesk threatened him with deportation and arrest and what should he do and that is why the statement came in that I was already in the fire, I couldn't help him. I do not believe that I was supposed to talk to him. I think the best for him was to get some legal advice. MR CORNELIUS You would agree with me that Mr Olifant was under extensive cross-examination here and he impressed me as a good witness. MR PRETORIUS No, but that's very well then. MR CORNELIUS No, I'm not asking your opinion, what was your impression? MR PRETORIUS You see, I'm not an expert in evaluating people's evidence. CHAIRPERSON What impression did you get from him, this is Olifant, without Mr Cornelius' impression? MR PRETORIUS Sir, in general I do realise his dilemma, that he has said certain things here. CHAIRPERSON The impression, I don't want us to go further than that. What impression did you get of him when he gave his evidence here? MR PRETORIUS I would say he's a good witness, Chairperson, if I can give him that credit. CHAIRPERSON Please continue, Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS He answered the questions easily, the answer came easily, he didn't contradict himself in his evidence. MR PRETORIUS Except that with regard to or well let's say there was no contradiction, he sticks to his story and we will stick to our story. MR CORNELIUS And you would agree that when he gave his co-operation...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON May I just enter here, except that he spoke of other incidents where you say you were not there? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Except for that he answered everything else very well. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Chairperson. And you would agree that when he gave his co-operation to the Investigative Team of the A-G, they could cross-reference any allegation that he made. MR PRETORIUS I believe so, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So, they could have caught out Mr Olifant if he was lying to them, with this statement. MR PRETORIUS Well if one studies the bits and pieces of incidents to which they asked him, it's clear that they didn't question him for too long, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Well, it's a very long statement with very much information, so it had to be a long conversation. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, he mentions a whole lot of incidents. For example this instance where we are involved now, that's one paragraph. MR CORNELIUS According to me that is not very long, but that's a paragraph that's causing you many problems. Let's go to that paragraph. Mr Olifant places you on the scene in the discussion on page 6 of the second last paragraph. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then I want to ask you at that stage you knew in the conversation that Bambo was involved in a few robberies, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, I did not know if. MR CORNELIUS But you knew he was involved in crime? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You do not know what happened to the victims of those crimes? MR PRETORIUS No. MR CORNELIUS So according to you as a police official, you just know that Bambo was involved in serious crimes? MR PRETORIUS No, as Mr Coetzee said, it came to his attention that Adriano Bambo was possibly involved in criminal activities. That is what I said the first time I spoke to Mr Olifant, so we did not know whether it was theft of cars, or housebreaking. MR CORNELIUS But it's quite clear that Olifant knew because he says "He, then allegedly involved in the robberies, later arrested and escaped." MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, but that is indeed where my problem is. He tries to put three conversations that I had with him in one paragraph, that is where my problem is. Everything that he and I discussed, he tries to put it in one paragraph. MR CORNELIUS So what did you find out about the robbery? MR PRETORIUS Where Mr Adriano was involved? MR CORNELIUS Before the escape. MR PRETORIUS This was in a newspaper report, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was this before the conversation or after the conversation? MR PRETORIUS As I have said, this was after, this was my second conversation with regard to Bambo with Mr Olifant Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have a look at the normal intelligence, if you could see what was happening? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, because the persons who were handling the case were involved with it. MR CORNELIUS But you were looking for Bambo. MR PRETORIUS I did not say I was looking for Bambo, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS But Mr Coetzee looked for him. MR PRETORIUS Well to want to speak to a man is not looking for him. MR CORNELIUS So you are an experienced member and you know there's a former member committing crimes, so now you decided you do not want to know what he's involved with, you're trying to protect him. MR PRETORIUS But in the newspaper report it said that he was involved in armed robberies and if I recall correctly, I think it was in Kempton Park, the incident that was in the newspaper, there was an armed robbery in Kempton Park and thereafter he escaped. MR CORNELIUS And you know any police official who would arrest a suspect in an armed robbery would know he was dangerous. MR PRETORIUS Well this man was a little bit more than dangerous. MR CORNELIUS What made him more dangerous? MR PRETORIUS Well, Sir, he's a former Renamo soldier, he comes from Koevoet and his evidence from Mr Olifant in the fighting situations he was the only person who jumped up with an LMG and ran with it, so this is not just your common criminal or a common person. MR CORNELIUS I see and he was much more dangerous because he had information that was quite dangerous to you. MR PRETORIUS Oh no, please Chairperson, I've already said to me Mr Strongman Adriano Bambo was no threat to me. MR CORNELIUS But the knowledge that he had? MR PRETORIUS What knowledge? MR CORNELIUS He had much knowledge of many operations. MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson, as I have already said, Chairperson, according to what I know in the description of an operation it was only the Simelane matter. MR CORNELIUS And then he was ill-disciplined as well, that gives you even greater problems. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I saw him for the last - or I worked with him for the last time in 1988 and that is how - there are many people, if I can just take Soweto Intelligence part, as the saying goes, I hired and fired many people, so I can tell you that Mr Bambo was only one of the people who, for a short period where I was involved, worked with me. MR CORNELIUS When this discussion took place between you and Olifant, have you eliminated persons before that? When you and Mr Olifant, this conversation on page 6? MR PRETORIUS Yes, this is where I went to Swaziland with Mr de Kock. MR CORNELIUS So you had previously eliminated people? MR PRETORIUS As I have said previously, this was in 1986, December 1986, Chairperson. I refer to the Pantso matter. MR CORNELIUS There is evidence that Olifant and Bambo were more than brothers, can you recall that? Do you not think that Mr Olifant would specifically remember if you told him that his "brother" had to be killed? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I think here he said in his own words, I never told him that. He never said that here, he said that I never said so. I denied that I said it and he said in his own evidence that Mr Pretorius never gave him instruction or said something that we had to kill Adriano. MR CORNELIUS Not that he that was Olifant, had to kill Adriano. That's where the confusion is, but the words "He had to be killed" MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, sorry, if I may come in here, but in fairness to the witness, Mr Olifant specifically retracted that part of this document that Mr Cornelius now tries to cross-examine on. CHAIRPERSON That's my recollection. MR CORNELIUS I stand to be corrected. Did he also retract the part "As he would talk like others were busy doing" MR PRETORIUS I denied that Chairperson. I think the name of Nofomela was mentioned here. I deny every saying anything like that to him. MR CORNELIUS But Mr Olifant did not retract that, that part still stands. MR PRETORIUS I agree and I am saying that I discussed that matter with Mr Olifant. MR CORNELIUS You see because I find that strange that Mr Olifant would remember that part. MR PRETORIUS As I've already said, after this piece that Mr Olifant had handed in, I have many problems with it. It's possible that he said so, but I deny it. ADV SANDI My recollection says to me at that stage where Olifant was mentioning names, Nofomela and Dirk Coetzee and so on, he was simply drunk and the inference, because those were the people who were talking here at that stage, their names had not been mentioned to him. All that had been mentioned was that people were talking at that stage, but specific names had not been mentioned. MR CORNELIUS That is quite correct, the names weren't mentioned. I understood that as well. Because you see, can you think of any reason why Mr Olifant would falsely implicate you? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I testified earlier on, I would not say falsely, this thing was mentioned under a tremendous stress and I keep on mentioning the Nceba incident. Mr Coetzee could have been in prison for a week or a weekend, because of his mistake that he had made, because he was so convinced, as I said he was prepared to swear under oath that Mr Coetzee was involved in the Nceba incident. CHAIRPERSON But he enlisted your advices and you said: "Do as you want to do, because there's no other way out", but had you sat together, you would have advised him what has happened and he wouldn't just mention names, would he, because he did not go there only, he came to you people and said: "Here are these people, here's Liesk behind my back" and you say: "Hey, we are also in the same soup or quagmire, see what you say" and he says what he remembers and now you are fighting him and say he just mentions names at random. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson what was I supposed to do at that stage? Was I supposed to influence the A-G's evidence? I couldn't afford to do that, otherwise I would be in trouble for that too. I realised that Mr Olifant as well as other members of my office, were also probably promised things for Section 204. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, let me be honest here, I have seen many Commissions in my life and I've been in this process for the past three years, what I've noticed and I want to understand is that when you come to the Security Forces, the whites stand alone, the blacks stand alone. Am I making a mistake when it comes to that? MR PRETORIUS No that's a fact, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And I have said it, I repeat it, can we go on news media, newsprint, that I find it very unsatisfactory that when you get the former Security Police, they are giving the best representation under the Pretoria Clause and those foot soldiers who were black, they have got to find their own legal representatives and if not so, through Legal Aid, which pays nothing. Would that not be true? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, because I was suspended, despite the fact that the Commissioner Fivaz told me that: "You will not be suspended as long as you make a full disclosure to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission" CHAIRPERSON Answer my question that, are the whites not standing together when they submit their applications for amnesty? MR PRETORIUS In the Soweto incidents, because we had no other choice because all the blacks were State witnesses, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You can take it from me that not only Soweto, all the Security Branches are standing together and the blacks alone and they were operating together. MR PRETORIUS Then there is an instance of Soweto where we had Phineas Motsualiba who was with Mr Coetzee, he didn't turn against us, he was with us. CHAIRPERSON That's why it is much better for you. I'm not making judgment, I say that's why it's making much better sense to you, because you had an opportunity to speak to Mr Coetzee. He is a man who went there and stood alone and as he came here, he stood alone again. Don't you find that rather disturbing that people would say you're talking not the truth, you can ask Mr Coetzee, it happened this way. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, were we supposed to involve the State witnesses of the A-G's office? We couldn't do that, in all honesty. Mr Olifant knows specifically me, I was one of the few who stood by him and I would go out of my way to assist him. CHAIRPERSON That's why he was surprised when he was followed by Liesk. Then when you and Coetzee said: "Do what you can do." MR PRETORIUS No Chairperson, I'd just like to correct that. Coetzee and I had already been suspended, our cars were taken back, our telephones were taken away, we were told also ... CHAIRPERSON You are taking it out of context. Whether you were suspended or not, he did come to you, didn't he? MR PRETORIUS Yes, he did come to me. CHAIRPERSON Now why do you bring the suspension in, because he came to you as seniors he respected. MR PRETORIUS I told him what he was supposed to do. CHAIRPERSON He must go and told with Liesk. MR PRETORIUS No, that's not what I said. CHAIRPERSON What was he supposed to do? MR PRETORIUS I told him: "Go and find yourself and attorney" and at that stage Mr Coetzee and I were looking for an attorney, nobody wanted to help us, not Head Office, no-one. I gave Mr Olifant advice as to what he was supposed to do. CHAIRPERSON So he had to find an attorney with R400, because that was his salary? Like an informer, Mr Coetzee said this, he received about R400. MR PRETORIUS Not at that stage. Mr Olifant was already a Sgt in the police, Chairperson, he could, on the contrary he had more right to the State Prosecutor, or State Attorney than I did. They didn't want to help me at all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I apologise for interrupting, Mr Cornelius. MR CORNELIUS I would just like to know. Do you know Mr Ivor Human? You're referring to the A-G's evidence. MR PRETORIUS Not know, I just saw him once in my life. MR CORNELIUS And is this the one time before Mr Bambo was killed? MR PRETORIUS No, I can give you the exact date, 30 April 1996 after I was given the suspension document by Brig Ivor Human and I was kept in semi-detention and that was the first and last time that I saw him. MR CORNELIUS So he was also with Eastern Murder and Robbery? MR PRETORIUS I understand that. I cannot comment on that. MR CORNELIUS And from your own knowledge, you do not know whether Mr Coetzee knew him? MR PRETORIUS I doubt whether Mr Coetzee knew him, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then in summary, you testified where you went Mr Olifant went. MR PRETORIUS He was my confidant. I would not say he was my confidant, but in this instance I had a few people who worked with me, whom I regarded as confidants, all of them and in that context I just tried to point out that when I went to, or when Mr Coetzee went to Pretorius, Strongman went with him and when I remained behind, Mr Olifant remained behind also. MR CORNELIUS I am quoting your own words, because I wrote it down. You said that "Where I went, Olifant went. He was my confidant." MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So there was a position of trust, a relationship of trust? MR PRETORIUS Correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So why is he trying to prejudice you? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I think if Olifant had to chose between myself and prison, I think he would have dropped me. MR CORNELIUS A last statement, I will accord with my learned colleague, Adv Hattingh and I would put it to you that you feared that confidential information would be exposed and you want to make it known now that my two clients acted on their own to kill Mr Bambo. MR PRETORIUS I deny that vehemently, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg. MR VAN DEN BERG Very briefly Mr Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Pretorius, you confirm that you did not know my client before 1994. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then the other aspect which might assist the Committee, you many a time have said that you went on an explosives course at Maleeuskop. MR PRETORIUS Yes, June 1986. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you know the difference between an F1 and an M75 defensive and offensive handgrenades? Can you indicate that? MR PRETORIUS Both are defensive handgrenades Chairperson. The F1 handgrenade is the handgrenade to which I think it was referred here to the pineapple. May I say, in layman's terms, they will refer to it as the pineapple. It's a solid metal with clearly fragmented pieces. That is the F1 defensive handgrenade, if I might describe it to you as such and then the Russian M 75 handgrenade is a plastic or ...(indistinct) handgrenade where approximately 2 000 to 2 500 steel balls are inside. There's quite a clear difference between the two. A very important between the two handgrenades is that when the F1 handgrenade would be thrown, one would hear a slap sound and that is where the pin is activated between three or four seconds that one has time and with the M75, when this handgrenade is thrown, you do not hear any sound. That is the difference between the two handgrenades Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And then there was the aspect that the deceased here, Mr Bambo, only had two wounds to his head because of the handgrenade that had exploded. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you assist the Committee in explaining how it is possible that it could have happened in this manner? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I was not at the scene myself. I would just like to categorically state it, I was not at the scene, but what I know of the M75 handgrenade is that, Chairperson, I was in Soweto on two occasions where I had to attend scenes where an M75 handgrenade, at both these scenes in the living rooms, were thrown into living rooms by the attackers, where persons were busy watching TV and not in one of these cases did the shrapnel injure any of the persons in the house. The injuries that those people had when the handgrenade exploded as they were falling over chairs and I think in some instances there were arms broken and there were clear cuts like as people fell and then ear drums that were burst, but it was inexplicable or it's an inexplicable situation, I could not believe it that persons could survive where these M75 handgrenades had been thrown in. That is what I know of what an M75 handgrenade, the one moment it could damage you so severely and the following moment it could explode in a very small area and not injure you at all. I do not know if I answered the question there, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Pretorius. Chairperson, I have no other questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Just before you do, you said to Mr Cornelius that Bambo, what is his correct name? There are lots of versions about him. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson, if I can say it quickly, Adriano Bambo, that's how I knew him, but I knew him as Strongman actually, from the first day when he was introduced to me, they told me this is Strongman. CHAIRPERSON You said that he had experience from Renamo. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He was this kind of person who would have fought the Murder and Robbery because they didn't know him and he was also brave, in other words. MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But my understanding of the evidence thus far is that he died at the age of 30/31, thereabouts and he would have been here and taking South West Africa and Soweto, he could have spent something like 20 years, South Africa and South West Africa and then that leaves us with 10 years, if my arithmetic is correct at this time of the day. What I'm saying is that if I'm doing just rough calculations in my head, that we take his operations in South West Africa and again him coming to Soweto, my arithmetic tells me that is a span of 20 years. MR PRETORIUS It's possible, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Then if he came from Mozambique, then he came here as a 10 year old. Why I'm saying that, then I say your response surprises me that a 10 year old could have that experience of Renamo ...(indistinct). You know it took me some time to sink in. MR PRETORIUS No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot exactly recall how old he was when he arrived in Soweto, but he was in his late twenties and I think if you look at today's television, you see children of under 16 years old running around with an AK47, so Strongman, as I've already said, in a normal discussion and Mr Olifant - or if I can tell this to the Committee, I know it's a very sensitive issue, that they do not want to talk about it, but they were the people who were Renamo people. Mr Olifant was a Renamo man who walked over. This is now hearsay, these are not facts. I am telling you what I heard. He told me that he came from Renamo, then he went to Brig van Rensburg and from there they went to Ovamboland and I met him the first time in 1983 in Soweto. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, if I may be of some assistance, I heard the evidence to be the 20 years that you are referring to, to be 10/11 years. The evidence is they went to Namibia in round about 1980 and he died in 1991. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I beg your pardon. MR WAGENER Except if I'm wrong, but I understood it to be about 11 years, maybe 12, not 20. CHAIRPERSON That's why I said forgive my arithmetic at this time of the day, it might be incorrect. That's what I was saying. Thank you for reminding me of the evidence before us, Mr Wagener, we're indebted to you. Mr Hurwitz. MR HURWITZ May I just approach my client for instructions? I think he's indicated that he wishes to say something. CHAIRPERSON You can even sit next to him. MS PATEL Mr Chairman, whilst my learned colleague is consulting, if I may just...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No, you may continue on this side, Mr Hurwitz. If it affects you I will tell you. MS PATEL I was busy double checking the docket to see if there isn't another statement by Mr Pretorius and I came across this, because of the way the docket has been photostatted, I had misread a statement and I assumed that it was the statement of some other person and his initials are M V and to cut a long story short, there's a signed statement by Mr Olifant, it appears to be just a statement, not an affidavit, I've sent it up for photostatting because there are other documents that have been photostatted back to back with that and I see Mr Japhta is here, I don't know if he has ... I must apologise profusely, it was really unintended, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ja, let's approach it this way that, give it to the legal representatives present and tell us what you make out of the statement. We don't want to see it at this juncture. Find out if it's got a greater impact on what we have done so far, or heard so far, rather. We haven't done anything, we heard. Thank you. We will adjourn and just advise us, we'll be outside. MS PATEL I see that it's been photostatted incorrectly in the same way that I would have read it firstly. Maybe I should just go up and do it myself. CHAIRPERSON You wouldn't MS PATEL Or what? CHAIRPERSON Can't you ... MS PATEL The initial statement that I got is by Mr Veyi and then one just back to back to that would be Mr Olifant and I noticed that he signed M A as you can see here, but the start of his statement ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How long will that take us? MS PATEL I shouldn't be longer than 10 minutes, 5, 10 minutes Honourable Chairperson, just to get it straight because it's quite a long document and there were other documents that were photostatted in between this document, unless my ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ja and it will also give Mr Hurwitz to take proper instructions and my interpreters to catch their breath as well. We'll have a short adjournment. It would have some great impact, I agree. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ANTON PRETORIUS (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, have you sorted out the logistical problems of the statement? MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. It appears that they have a new photostatting machine upstairs and I've had problems in trying to get copies for everybody, but I managed to photostat one copy which my learned colleagues have had sight of. They are quite happy that we proceed without them having copies at their disposal at this stage. If I may, just for the record, state that page 7 of the document I do not have and the adjustments that are on the copy that I do have, are too a large extent typographical errors and I would imagine that nothing really turns on it at this stage. CHAIRPERSON How many pages does the statement have? MS PATEL It's the same as Exhibit A, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So when you speak of 7, that would be the Maphika case. MS PATEL Let me just double-check my Exhibit A. Yes, it is, Honourable Chairperson, that's the only page that's missing. CHAIRPERSON May I just get confirmation from ... MR HATTINGH I confirm what Ms Patel has just told you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hattingh. MR CORNELIUS I confirm it as well. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, Ms Patel referred to her learned colleagues, that can never include me, but I have no problem. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, you must be careful and not generalise. MS PATEL My apologies. ADV BOSMAN May I just, Mr Chairman, for the clarity of the record, I don't think it was put quite clearly. It is a signed copy of Exhibit A, with the exception of one page. MS PATEL That is correct, yes and it's not an affidavit, it is not commissioned. ADV BOSMAN Yes, I think we need that for record purposes, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG I have no difficulties, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hurwitz? MR HURWITZ No difficulties. CHAIRPERSON Mr Jonker? MR JONKER No difficulties, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hurwitz, I suppose you took fuller instructions? You may proceed. MR HURWITZ Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HURWITZ Mr Pretorius there's not much left to clarify after what my learned colleagues and the Chairperson have asked you. CHAIRPERSON Including Ms Patel. MR HURWITZ Well Ms Patel hasn't had a chance yet. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. MR HURWITZ According to your knowledge, was Mr Bambo and Mr Olifant, did they have military training before you met them? MR PRETORIUS Before I met them? MR HURWITZ Yes. MR PRETORIUS When they came back from Ovamboland, let us call it military trained. MR HURWITZ Would you know whether they were military trained prior to their use in the operational area in South West Africa? MR PRETORIUS There was talk to that effect that they were with Renamo before that. MR HURWITZ Now who did you hear that from? MR PRETORIUS Olifant as well as the deceased, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Do you recall the context of your ... MR PRETORIUS No, this was in general, at that stage there was I think George Khosa and there was another person by the name of Jimmy. This Jimmy incident I can recall quite clearly because he always alleged that he was a parabat with Renamo. MR HURWITZ So would it shock you if it was put to you that neither of them were trained by Renamo and that all their military training was obtained under Koevoet in South West Africa? MR PRETORIUS Then they must have lied to me back then, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ But you said you can't recall them having told you exactly? MR PRETORIUS No, they did not specifically say that they were trained in these things, or what I understood from them, as I have said, the one specific person who, because he always had the best stories, was a guy by the name of Jimmy who said he was a parabat. MR HURWITZ Yes, but Jimmy is unrelated to Olifant. MR PRETORIUS No, but it was within that context when they were together. MR HURWITZ Can you dispute the fact that they were never trained by Renamo? MR PRETORIUS No, probably not, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Can you dispute the fact that they were picked up by South African Intelligence and they were educated in the South African Armed Services? MR PRETORIUS I cannot deny that, or I do not know of it. MR HURWITZ Now, during a question by the Judge on the totality of Mr Olifant's statement, you said that it is incorrect in certain respects, one of them being that he's implicated during the Maphika incident, is that correct? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Perhaps there is a misunderstanding. If one turns to the Maphika case, that's page 7 of Exhibit A, now have you read, did your legal representative give you a chance to read this statement? MR PRETORIUS I see that before me Chairperson. MR HURWITZ What puzzles me is where do you see that he has implicated you in the Maphika incident? MR PRETORIUS Because he starts his statement by saying the second-in-command, that's the inference that I drew, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Okay, in fairness to you, you perhaps obtained a birds eye view of this statement, because nowhere else in the statement does he implicate you and he doesn't place you on the scene either. MR PRETORIUS That's how it came about in his evidence also, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ So would you agree then that he has not implicated you in the Maphika incident? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I speak from my point of view, I see that because my name is mentioned there. Why ... CHAIRPERSON No, no, no, that's not the question. It has been ...(indistinct) that he mentions you that you were just second-in-command, but otherwise he doesn't implicate you. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I see that, that he wants to implicate me here, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Yes, well perhaps, would you like an opportunity to read that page or will you take it from me and your legal representative that you are not implicated in this incident? MR PRETORIUS No, I accept, as I've already said, Chairperson, that during Mr Olifant's evidence-in-chief he, during cross-examination I think of Mr Wagener, said that I was not involved there, so I accept it as such. MR HURWITZ Thank you. Now you, from your experience as a Unit Commander, would you say that you are able to assess the capabilities and the effectiveness of persons under your command in operational situations? MR PRETORIUS I would believe so, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Now, could you comment on any differences in the operational effectiveness of the deceased, Mr Bambo and Manuel Olifant? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. I think Mr Olifant was much more intelligent than the deceased, he was quite fluent in English. What I do remember from Mr Adriano Bambo, he spoke a broken English and he could understand a command in Afrikaans here and there. MR HURWITZ Would this have caused you such a concern that you would have precluded taking Bambo on operations with you, because he would be a security risk? MR PRETORIUS No, definitely not, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ From my understanding of the tone of your attorney's cross-examination, this instruction was never given to him, am I correct? From what I understand from the questions which your attorney asked, he was never furnished with this information that Bambo would have been an operational risk? MR PRETORIUS No, never, we didn't mention it to anyone, or he was not a security risk. MR HURWITZ And you could assist the Committee, if they were both operationally effective, why throughout your evidence thus far, have you stated that Bambo wasn't there? MR PRETORIUS Because he was not there, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ How is it that you have such a clear recollection of events 9 years ago, which in your career as a policeman over decades, you seem to have this clear recollection that Bambo wasn't there, that's what puzzles me. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson I cannot help that I can remember it and it's unfortunately so. MR HURWITZ You see, it puzzles me that perhaps you have a sinister motive for having such a selective memory. MR PRETORIUS Let's suppose that even Mr Bambo was there, I could have mentioned him in my initial application and I could admit it here today that he was there. I have no reason to withhold it if Mr Bambo was there, but I do not want to be guilty of lies by saying that he was not there, but I do know that, before my holy soul, as they mention it in Afrikaans, that he was not there. MR HURWITZ Did you trust Mr Bambo? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Were you worried about his welfare after he left the Security Services? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, because he was not ill or anything. As far as I know Mr Coetzee just suspended his services. so there was no concern about it because we knew that he could continue with his life. MR HURWITZ Then I put it to you that and I'd ask you to comment, that the more logical version is what appears on Mr Olifant's statement, Annexure A, where he says that you were afraid that Bambo would be an information leak, it's more logical than your version. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson page 6 ... MR HURWITZ It's a more logical version than your denial. You see to deny having had such a conversation with Mr Olifant. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, I do not see that. CHAIRPERSON It's paragraph 1, page 6 of the exhibit. MR PRETORIUS Would you start reading? MR HURWITZ "I was approached by Pretorius and requested to keep an ear out for him. I was to pass the information to him. Pretorius told me that if he was caught he would have to be killed, as he would talk like others were busy doing." MR PRETORIUS Chairperson I deny that statement in its entirety, I've never said that. I never meant anything by that. I never said that. ADV BOSMAN Mr Hurwitz, are you aware of the fact that Mr Olifant had retracted the major part of this statement? MR HURWITZ Yes, he retracted the part about the killing not about the information lead, that was the question. ADV BOSMAN Yes, okay. MR HURWITZ Okay, thank you. Now you speak that Mr Olifant would perhaps want to turn State witness in order to protect himself. You said that in answer to one of the questions put to you. MR PRETORIUS I believe that is the impression that was left by me, the fact that he went to the A-G's office and made statements. MR HURWITZ And is that your possible reason to explain why he would implicate you? MR PRETORIUS Well that would be one of the reasons and I think it's a good reason, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If you can bear in mind, he said at that stage he was also suspended. MR PRETORIUS I was suspended, Chairperson, yes. MR HURWITZ Did you tell this to your attorney that Mr Olifant possibly could have done this to be able to testify as a State witness? MR PRETORIUS I cannot recall telling Mr Wagener that. We can ask Mr Wagener about it. MR HURWITZ Yes, because Mr Olifant's credibility was not challenged in that regard. MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, already in the Nceba incident it came out, as I've already previously stated. We saw how credible he was indeed, that he had involved the wrong persons in a reasonably serious murder case in Soweto, so it's quite clear that ...(intervention) MR HURWITZ Yes, but we're talking about Mr Olifant's evidence today. His credibility was not effectively challenged by your attorney on instructions given by yourself. This was apparent to me. MR PRETORIUS Sir, I cannot comment on that. I think Mr Wagener would probably argue ... CHAIRPERSON Can't we leave that for argument? MR PRETORIUS Yes, for argument, Chairperson. MR HURWITZ Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HURWITZ CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hurwitz. Whilst Mr Olifant is there, Mr Olifant, what I want to find out, what were Strongman's real names? MR OLIFANT Adriano Bambo Nhasopa. CHAIRPERSON Like the brother made the affidavit? MR OLIFANT That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you all aware of the statement by the brother in the documentation? MR WAGENER That's volume 2, page 42. CHAIRPERSON That would be N-h-a-s-s-o-p-a? Thank you very much Mr Olifant. Thank you Mr Hurwitz. Mr Jonker? MR JONKER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON May I remind you that you have regard to your phonometer because we will definitely stop at four to afford Mr Hattingh the opportunity to clear his chamber problems. MR JONKER Mr Chairman, I'll make a note where I will be in my cross-examination. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JONKER Mr Pretorius, Captain Pretorius, 1983, can you recall what police vehicle you were driving at that stage? MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson. 83, no that's a long shot in the dark. I drove many vehicles. Can you be more specific? MR JONKER You see Sir, what I am trying to say here, in 1983 you drove a police car. You must have had that police car longer than a week? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR JONKER You had it longer than a month? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR JONKER Yes, you drove around with a car for a month, longer than a month and you can't recall what car you drove around with, but you can recall what you were doing on a specific day and who was with you on a specific day. MR PRETORIUS And then I can recall specific vehicles. At that stage, may I just inform the Committee, the Security Branch didn't only have one car, we had many cars. MR JONKER I'm aware of it, but every person in the Security Branch - you drove a nice car, Capt Coetzee had a nice car, you drove nice Golfs and Skylines and Sierras and you can't recall what you were driving, but you can specifically recall who came to visit you on specific days? MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER How long did you know Mr Olifant? MR PRETORIUS As I've already testified, in 1984 when he arrived at Soweto Chairperson. MR JONKER In other words in 1986 you heard that there was a problem, that A-G's people were looking for him, or the TRC were looking for him to get statements, do you recall that? Do you remember that? In 1996 the A-G's people were looking for him. Capt Liesk ... MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR JONKER So you testified that Mr Olifant was your side-kick. MR PRETORIUS Yes, those are the words I used. MR JONKER You were on certain operations with him, top secret operations. Will you agree with me Mr Olifant was looking out for you and you were looking out for him, you were buddies? MR PRETORIUS Well, one could put it as such, Chairperson. MR JONKER You entrusted him with your life. He had to look after you and vice versa. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER And in 1996 this person who was your buddy, who looked after you so well in 1986, you told him: "Get yourself an attorney"? You told him, "Get yourself an attorney". He comes to you and he says: "Capt Liesk is looking for me, he wants a statement from me", this man who was your confidant. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, that is correct. I would just like to know from this learned friend, what did he want me to do? What does he think I could do? I was no longer a member of the Force, I didn't even have a salary anymore, I didn't even have a legal representative, representation, nothing. What was I supposed to do? MR JONKER I will get there, if you are not so impatient we will get to that question. This person whom you trusted so much, there were many options you could exercise. You could have told him: "Listen mate, Mr Olifant, we are together in this thing. We have to stand together here, otherwise we are going to experience problems". Do you agree? MR PRETORIUS Well I think on the contrary that's what I told him. MR JONKER But that is not what you have said in your evidence-in-chief. MR PRETORIUS Well I admit Chairperson, I did not go into detail but it boiled down to the fact that if he is sitting there he can be asked. My words to him were: "Olifant, just remember one thing, just keep to the truth all the time. Don't tell stories, just keep to the truth. Tell the truth and no stories and find yourself an attorney who can help you. I am still looking for my own attorney." MR JONKER Indeed Sir, but would you agree with me, let us argue here for one second, that you, Mr Olifant and Mr Coetzee were together with Mr Wagener, then we would not have had these problems that we are having now. You are referring to instances where you were not present, he says you were there. Then you could have sat together and worked out the thing very nicely and come to a conclusion, would you agree? MR PRETORIUS So what you are trying to tell me, Sir, is that I had to take the A-G's witness with me to Mr Wagener's office? MR JONKER You refer to the A-G's witness, was Mr Olifant a witness or was he indemnified? They were looking for him like they were looking for you. MR PRETORIUS No, the A-G's office, they wanted to have a look at my office where Mr Ivor Human took me. Up to today I do not know why they wanted to go to my office, I never dealt with the A-G's office, they have never approached me up till today for anything. MR JONKER But in 1996, who told you that the A-G was using him for a witness? MR PRETORIUS That's the impression I gained from my discussion with him. MR JONKER But that was an impression. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER You didn't know at that stage whether he was an A-G witness, except for your impressions? MR PRETORIUS Yes, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes, so what stopped you? MR PRETORIUS Probably nothing, Chairperson. MR JONKER Yes, you threw your colleague to the wolves here. Now I put it to you that you threw him to the wolves and then the A-G's wolves picked him up. MR PRETORIUS No, Chairperson, he can testify how I protected him over the years. And when I was in trouble, did he do anything to help me, Chairperson? He did nothing. MR JONKER We do not know whether who's in the trouble here, we don't know who's speaking the truth, you or Mr Olifant. So you were in the same boat. MR PRETORIUS I think my situation is more serious than Mr Olifant. Today he's a member of the Police Service and I no longer. My whole future has been messed up by stories. MR JONKER But Sir, you said you looked after him while he was in the Police Force. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, yes. MR JONKER But now we have to have a look at the time when you looked at him, that was in the days of the old regime, as we refer to them today. Of course you were looking out for him. If you didn't look after him, then he was there by the Star and the Sunday Times and then your offices would also have been raided by the Harms and Goldstone Commissions and all the Commissions. Of course you had to look after him during those years, would you agree with me? MR PRETORIUS Chairperson in that regard, when I said that when I looked after him, I am the guy who made him a police officer, he worked with me, he received cars from me, I always looked after him, but I did not have any ulterior motives, same like when I left the Service just for the record, I had 55 members under my command, covert members and I tried to look after each and every one of them without any ulterior motives. MR JONKER As the Chairperson ... the issue of the white officers or the white members, they looked after themselves and forgot about their black colleagues. "Find your own attorney" You didn't have money, but Mr Olifant also didn't have money. Even if you received a salary of R800 in 1996 that was his salary after deductions, that's not money to appoint an attorney. MR PRETORIUS Chairperson, if I recall correctly at some stage when Mr Olifant contacted me, he with me, not I with him, I told him: "Why don't you come to me, I'll take you to Mr Wagener" and he didn't want to, he didn't want to listen because he was already involved with the A-G's persons. MR JONKER That is the first time that we hear about that now, why didn't you tell us that earlier? MR PRETORIUS You see, Sir, it's now while I'm being asked these questions, then I can recall it now. I never, in the times when I was in trouble, when he kept on working as a police officer, how many times did he call me and I tried to give him advice and he can indicate whether it's right or wrong, he doesn't have to be called for a witness again, but its definitely more than one occasion. MR JONKER Did you tell you legal representative about this? MR PRETORIUS Yes, I did, I think amongst other, in the Nceba case, that's how we knew about the bombs, because Mr Olifant came to me afterwards and told me: "This is what the A-G's people asked him about the bombs" and I told it to Mr Wagener and in the same venue here, Mr Wagener brought it up and it came out. MR JONKER You are pre-empting the question Sir. You, Mr Olifant contacted you on occasion after you were suspended. MR PRETORIUS That's correct, Chairperson. MR JONKER Now my question was, did you ask this of your legal representative? You just gave some long explanation. Did you tell it to him? MR PRETORIUS Yes. MR JONKER So you do not know why he did not ask Mr Olifant about it, or why in your evidence-in-chief he did not mention it? You did not deem it necessary. You see, as we are continuing or as my colleagues cross-examine you, you would like to amend things as we are going on. I put it to you that you are adjusting or amending things as we are going along. MR PRETORIUS No, Sir, I am just trying to give an explanation with regard to the situation as to what happened, how I saw it. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, sorry, I'm going to object. "Aanpas" in my language means changing the version and I would like to know from Mr Jonker where a version has been changed. MR JONKER Mr Chairman, just before we adjourn, I actually wanted to suggest, I see it's 4 o'clock, otherwise Mr Hattingh's going to get a small office in a little corner somewhere. Can I change the word, or can I restructure the word? As we are going along you are adding bits of evidence in, you are not amending it, you are just adding pieces to it. MR PRETORIUS That's probably necessary for me to make full disclosure here of how I see it, or as how things happened, that is what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to mislead anyone here, I'm trying to the best of my ability to answer a question which is put to me. MR JONKER But if a question is put in general, then you answer it in general. CHAIRPERSON Yes, if a question is asked which was not asked in chief, is he not supposed to fill up that gap which was not covered in evidence-in-chief, so I don't think the accusation would be correct here because at first, until Mr Wagener came in, I thought you said he's tailoring his evidence as he goes on. MR JONKER Mr Chairman, at this stage, I don't know what's Mr Wagener's strategy, he's got his own strategy, I'll concede that that's not ... CHAIRPERSON May we just stop here, I think this is a convenient and opportune moment to stop. MR JONKER Indeed so, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Pretorius, I must say I am sorry that you have to spend three days, and come back for cross-examination. I'm sorry about that, the circumstances forced us to do that. It is not my style that somebody must stay a number of days and be cross-examined. I apologise. Unfortunately you'll have to come back on Monday. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, may I have a last word? My strategy is simple, to try and keep the procedure to the terms of the subpoena of my client. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wagener. We adjourn until Monday. What time, nine? Let's make it nine-thirty and be fair to everybody. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS