amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 2000-08-28 DURBAN 1 BASIL DUMISANE MAFU AM5293/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54425&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200828db.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning. For the purposes of the record I am Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues here to identify themselves for the purposes of the record and so too the various representatives. JUDGE POTGIETER My name is Denzil Potgieter. MR LAX Good morning, my name is Ilan Lax. MR MGIDLANA My name Tangwe Fika Mgidlana. I'm appearing for the applicant in this matter. MR NONTENJA CHAIRPERSON Can you spell you name? MR S-I... CHAIRPERSON No, the surname please. MR NONTENJA N-O-N-T-E-N-J-A CHAIRPERSON Nontenja. MR NONTENJA That's correct. MS THABETHE Thank you. My name is Thabile Thabethe. I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Which application is this, Ms Thabethe? MS THABETHE We are hearing the application of Basil Dumisane Mafu. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Mgidlana. MR MGIDLANA Thank you Judge. I will lead the evidence of Mr Mafu. May he be sworn in? BASIL DUMISANE MAFU (sworn states) MR MGIDLANA Thank you Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA Mr Mafu could you give us your full names? MR MAFU My full names are Basil Kanye Dumisane Mafu. MR MGIDLANA Where and when were you born? MR MAFU I was born in Roelofvale in the erstwhile Transkei on the 11th of September 1957. MR MGIDLANA You are here to move an application for the granting of amnesty in respect of certain incidents. Which political organisation did you belong to? MR MAFU I belonged to and still belong to the African National Congress. MR MGIDLANA When did you join the ANC? MR MAFU I joined the ANC around 1978 and joined its military wing in 1981, 1980. MR MGIDLANA Did you receive any military training? MR MAFU I underwent military training in Angola and the Soviet Union. MR MGIDLANA Having undergone military training, where were you deployed? MR MAFU I first served in the military camp of the ANC in Angola. Later on I served in the front, that is inside South Africa, as a Regional Commander for the Transkei. MR MGIDLANA Do you recall the year in which you served in the Transkei? MR MAFU I think I was infiltrated into the country at the beginning of 1986, or late 1985. I can't recall the dates exactly, but I operated in the Transkei between the years 1986 and 1987, that is being physically inside the country, in the Transkei. MR MGIDLANA When you say you operated in the Transkei, what kind of operations were you involved in? MR MAFU I was involved mainly in covert operations of the nature of assault on police stations, ...(indistinct). I think mainly those were the operations. I'm also saying when I was physically inside the Transkei, because even if I was still outside the Transkei, having retreated to a neighbouring country, I still held the responsibility of Regional Commander for that area. MR MGIDLANA I gather that you were a Regional Commander, is that correct? MR MAFU That's correct. MR MGIDLANA When did you become the Regional Commander? MR MAFU I was the Regional Commander from, as I'm saying, from the beginning of 1986 up until I would say 1988, if I'm not mistaken. MR MGIDLANA As a Regional Commander, what duties did you have to shoulder? MR MAFU I had to shoulder the responsibility of advancing the struggle in the area I was deployed in. This involved both political and conducting military operations, so I had a number of units under me, deployed in the area. MR MGIDLANA In your application for amnesty you have almost about three incidents. Can you tell us which one happened first? CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgidlana, he's mentioned four, together with one that seems to be a blanket application, being (e). MR MGIDLANA Let me rephrase the question. You have mentioned about three incidents in which you were directly involved, by directly, physically involved. MR MAFU That's correct. MR MGIDLANA The fourth one being the one that took place in Mzamba. MR MAFU That's correct. MR MGIDLANA Now in respect of those that you were directly involved, are you able to tell us which one happened first, so that we start with that? MR MAFU If I may remember well, I think the Borris Sedawu bombing was the first one, if I still recall. CHAIRPERSON Which one did you say? MR MAFU The Borris Sedawu bombing. MR MGIDLANA Do you recall in which year did it take place? MR MAFU I think it was 1986. MR MGIDLANA Are you able to tell us with whom were you personally involved by the way? MR MAFU Together with Maziz Makadeza. We discussed this operation with Setselo Manki, they are unfortunately both deceased now. Setselo Manki then was working as a clerk at the Borris Sedawu building. We therefore organised a limpet mine which we primed and handed over to Setselo Manki to go and place, if I remember well I think it was the registry section of the Borris Sedawu building, which he did. CHAIRPERSON Who is that? MR MAFU Setselo Manki. CHAIRPERSON He was the one that was working at ... MR MAFU Yes. CHAIRPERSON The three of you discussed this matter and in terms of the plan Manki would go place that bomb in what you say was the registry section. MR MAFU That's right. MR LAX Was he a clerk in that section? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? MR LAX Was he a clerk in that section or where was he working? MR MAFU I'm not sure whether he was in that section, but he was working within that department. MR LAX That department? MR MAFU Yes. MR MGIDLANA Do you know which department that was? MR MAFU I can't be sure whether it was the Department of Interior or whatever. I'm not sure of the department exactly. CHAIRPERSON Well anyway, it doesn't really matter. He had access to the building. MR MGIDLANA Now, are you able to tell the Committee as to why did you chose Borris Sedawu building? MR MAFU This was more of a political statement, because I remember at the time, I think it was at the time of the death of King Sebata, so there was a lot of arrogance on the part of the then Transkei Government. CHAIRPERSON So who was head of it then? MR MAFU Pardon? CHAIRPERSON Who was the head of the Transkei? MR MAFU It was Matanzima, then as I'm saying ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Whose death are you talking about? MR MAFU King ...(indistinct) Sebata. So there was a lot of arrogance on the part of the Transkei Government pertaining to that and there was a lot of ill feeling within the communities in general, so this was in relation to that, it was a political statement on the part of the African National Congress. CHAIRPERSON Tell me more about this arrogance. MR MAFU About the? CHAIRPERSON About the arrogance on the part of the then Transkei authority. MR MAFU King Sebata, Dalingyebo had been persecuted out of the Transkei and he went into exile. He was exiled to Lusaka, Zambia. I think that's where he passed away, so during his passing away, there was a lot of adverse publicity on the part of the Transkei Government. CHAIRPERSON Against? MR MAFU Against Sebata and the ANC, so we wanted to respond to that arrogance in a way which could be seen by everybody, that the ANC is opposed to what the Matanzima Government was saying. CHAIRPERSON Sebata was a known supporter of the ANC? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Sebata. MR MAFU He was by then a member of the ANC. MR MGIDLANA According to your plan, having chosen Borris Sedawu building as a target, what time did you want this bomb to go off? MR MAFU We timed the bomb to go off before people got to work, because we didn't intend injuring any ...(indistinct), as I'm saying, this was just meant to be a political statement, so we wanted it to go off before 8 o'clock when everybody reports for work. MR MGIDLANA Are you aware as to when did it actually go off? MR MAFU If I may recall, I'm subject to correction, I think it went off around that time, before 8 o'clock in the morning. CHAIRPERSON As planned? MR MAFU As planned, yes. MR MGIDLANA Did you get to hear as to whether or not were there any people that were injured? MR MAFU According to newspaper reports, I think there was a person who suffered some injuries. I think it was somebody working in the Department, those who come earlier than 8 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON You say someone, or some people were injured? MR MAFU I think it was someone. MR MGIDLANA We now know that it was Mr Ndzobole, is that the person that was reported to have been injured even then? MR MAFU I can't recall the name at the time, this happened a long time ago. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgidlana, who do you say it was? MR MGIDLANA Ndzobole, according to the bundle, N-D-Z-O-B-O-L-E. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mafu, are you prepared to accept that it was Mr Ndzobole who was injured? MR MAFU I've got no problem with accepting that, yes. MR MGIDLANA Was it just one limpet mine, or were there many? MR MAFU No, it was one limpet mine. MR MGIDLANA Now with that having happened, where you say there were no other people except for this lone person. MR MAFU As far as I know, Sir. MR MGIDLANA Was there any damage to the building caused? MR MAFU There must have been damage caused to the building. I don't ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to accept that there was? MR MAFU I'm prepared to accept, I mean because, when a limpet mine explodes, there's bound to be some damage. MR MGIDLANA Alright. Which was then - let's go on, which was the second incident to take place? MR MAFU The Madeira Street Police Station was the second attempt of the sequence. MR MGIDLANA Could you tell us as to who was involved in the planning as well as the execution of that particular operation? MR MAFU In the planning of the operation it was myself, Maziz Makadeza, Mbule Longono, Solly ...(indistinct) MR MGIDLANA So you were all involved in the planning as well as the execution? MR MAFU We were not all involved in the execution. CHAIRPERSON Just hold it, I just need to write down all these names. It seems that all your colleagues who acted with you, are now deceased. MR MAFU That's my dilemma. Yes. MR MGIDLANA So who was actually involved then in the execution of the operation? MR MAFU In the execution of the operation it was Mbule Longono, Solly Talagumeni and Siphiwe Mazwaye. CHAIRPERSON Just repeat that. MR MAFU Mbule Longono, Solly Talagumeni and Siphiwe Mazwaye. MR LAX Were you also involved in the execution? MR MAFU No, I was not involved in the execution but in the planning as a Senior Commander. MR LAX Okay. Thanks. MR MGIDLANA What was used in the execution of that particular operation? MR MAFU In the execution of the operation was used hand grenades, AK47's and pistols. MR MGIDLANA Who had supplied those who were to be involved in the execution with such armoury? MR MAFU I supplied the armoury. MR MGIDLANA What was the reason for choosing to attack Madeira Police Station? MR MAFU Madeira Police Station was the main police station in Umtata, the capital of the Transkei. One could safely say that it was the centre of oppression where police brutality was metered from to the people around the Transkei, so in a way it was the symbol of the Transkei Police. MR MGIDLANA According to the planning, when was this operation planned to be effected? MR MAFU It was planned to be effected towards 10 o'clock at night. MR MGIDLANA Was there any specific reason for choosing that time? MR MAFU The specific reason was that 10 o'clock was the curfew time in the Transkei, so we didn't want to attract attention by moving after 10 o'clock, but we thought that if it was closer to 10 o'clock, a lot of people would have left the charge office by then, that is the civilians, having applied for their curfew permits and it was also opportune because the attackers would approach the police station as if they were to come and apply for curfew permits. CHAIRPERSON When did curfew begin? MR MAFU You mean in terms of the time of the day? At 10 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON 10 o'clock? MR MAFU Yes. MR MGIDLANA This 10 o'clock is 10 o'clock in the evening? MR MAFU That's correct. MR MGIDLANA So were these three going to be joined by some other people in the execution of this task, or were they just going to execute it by themselves, the three of them? MR MAFU No, they were enough being three. MR MGIDLANA As far as you are aware, were any people injured or killed? MR MAFU Yes, I'm aware that a number of policemen were killed and I think there were some civilians who were hit in the cross-fire. MR MGIDLANA Do you know the names of those that were killed? MR MAFU I'm not familiar with the names. MR MGIDLANA What about those that were injured, do you know them? MR MAFU Also those who were injured, I'm not familiar. MR MGIDLANA Was any damage caused to the building? MR MAFU I reckon there must have been some damage, since there were some hand grenades which exploded. CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to accept that there was in fact some damage? MR MAFU I'm prepared, ja. MR MGIDLANA With that operation having been executed, are you aware of any people that were - those who went to execute that particular operation, were they arrested? MR MAFU No, they were not arrested. MR MGIDLANA And you knew where they were staying, is that correct? MR MAFU I knew, yes, that's correct. MR MGIDLANA Then let's come to the third operation, then ...(intervention) JUDGE POTGIETER Mr Mgidlana, what is the date of this one? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? JUDGE POTGIETER What is the date of this attack? MR MAFU I can't remember the date. JUDGE POTGIETER Is it ...(intervention) MR LAX 29 July. JUDGE POTGIETER Is it 29th of July, is that - there's a note in our papers that it happened on the 29th of July. MR MAFU I wouldn't dispute that date. JUDGE POTGIETER ; You would accept that's the date? MR MAFU I accept it. JUDGE POTGIETER Thank you. Yes, sorry Mr Mgidlana. MR MGIDLANA Thank you Judge. Then with that - what was the third operation? MR MAFU It was the ...(indistinct) shoot-out. MR MGIDLANA Are you able to recall as to when did it take place? MR MAFU I think it must have been towards the end of January in 1987. MR MGIDLANA Was that still during the era of the Matanzimas in the Transkei as the rulers? MR MAFU That's correct. MR MGIDLANA Were you personally involved in that particular operation? MR MAFU Yes, I was personally involved. MR MGIDLANA Could you briefly tell the Committee as to what had happened? MR MAFU We were hiding out in a shop in the Logwaiso area, near Dwessa, so this is not an operation which was planned by us but apparently the Security Forces had got wind of where we were. On the day in question, unfortunately two of us had gone out on another mission, so when they raided the place, they found one cadres, that is Mbule Longono, who was at the residence at the time. We only came back the following morning, not aware that the place had been raided. When we became aware, because we had started in another area when we got this information that the place had been raided, so we went to the place which was raided because we thought that he might still be lingering around, to try and salvage. That was the following day after the raid. Unfortunately we had an engagement with the Security Services before we could reach the place where he was, that is the shop in Logwaiso. I'm not aware of any injury or death in that incident. We were not out to assault, but we were mainly disengaging from the Security Services, because as I'm saying, it was early in the morning, at about, I think if I'm not mistaken it was between 8 and 10 in the morning, so we didn't fight with the purpose maybe to inflict injuries or casualties, but we were mainly disengaging, so that we can retreat in safety and that's what we did. That was myself and Makadeza. We later established communication and contact with Mbule Longono who also managed to get out of that situation. I am aware that one police officer, if I'm not mistaken, might have got injured in the ensuing battle, but I'm not aware of any fatalities. MR MGIDLANA When you say in the ensuing battle, at the time that you were already there, or before you arrived? MR MAFU I'm not sure, I suspect that it might have been when they raided the place, that is when Mbule Longono was there, but I won't dispute if it's said he got injured in the second encounter, that is with ourselves and Makadeza. CHAIRPERSON I'm not too clear on this one. You say your unit was hiding out at Mr Japhta's house and at some time it was necessary for two of you to leave that house for some other reason. While you were away, you were informed that the police had raided that house. MR MAFU On our way back. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but you weren't at the house yet. MR MAFU Pardon? CHAIRPERSON You were not at the house yet. MR MAFU We were not at the house. CHAIRPERSON Now, you then decided to go to that house. MR MAFU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MAFU We went to the house because one of us we had left there the previous day. CHAIRPERSON Who was that? MR MAFU It was Mbule Longono. JUDGE POTGIETER Was he also called Kaya, you said? MR MAFU Kaya Sizabane. JUDGE POTGIETER Was that his combat name? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? JUDGE POTGIETER Was that his combat name? MR MAFU That's his combat name. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now you left Longono there and then you wanted to go see what - why did you go there now? You say you left him there the previous day. MR MAFU We left him there the previous day and the house was raided when we were not there, so when we came back, we got information that there had been a raid and it was our moral and military responsibility to go and establish exactly what happened and rescue him out of that situation because our concern was that he was alone and we were two who had left. CHAIRPERSON On your way there, you encountered the police. MR MAFU Yes. CHAIRPERSON And there was a firearm engagement. MR MAFU That's right. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR MAFU As I'm saying, I'm not aware of any fatalities in that ... CHAIRPERSON There was shooting across. MR MAFU There was shooting across, they also brought in a helicopter. CHAIRPERSON Now, do you know how your colleague Longono got injured? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON How did he get injured? MR MAFU No, he was not injured in that situation. He got out of that situation, as we later joined with him. CHAIRPERSON So his injury had nothing to do with this incident? MR MAFU No, no, no, it was somewhere - he didn't die in that situation. CHAIRPERSON No, but did he get injured? MR MAFU No. CHAIRPERSON Did he get injured in a separate matter? MR MAFU The injury I was talking about, I was saying I think there might have been a policeman who got injured in that situation, not Mbule. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR MGIDLANA When you met with these Security Forces, how far were you from the or to the Japhta shop? MR MAFU Well as we were approaching the Japhta shop, there is a hill. As we were coming over the hill, that's when we saw the police officers and they were travelling in a Golf, then they pursued us from there, so we were almost next to the - I think we were less than a kilometre from the Japhta shop. MR MGIDLANA When you say you later met up with Longono, where were you? Were you still at Logwaiso or somewhere else? MR MAFU No, no, we were not in Logwaiso. After the shoot-out we manoeuvred to Butterworth and he had taken the route to Umtata, so we established communication and joined up. MR MGIDLANA Alright. Then did you assist Longono then to escape out of the Transkei, or did he remain inside the Transkei area? MR MAFU No, we left Transkei after some two weeks or so into Lesotho. CHAIRPERSON Was he in police custody when you returned, or planning to return to that safehouse? MR MAFU To the? CHAIRPERSON Safehouse. MR MAFU No, he was not arrested. He managed to escape. CHAIRPERSON No, that's what I'm trying to get at. During the raid, was he found at that house? MR MAFU Yes, he was in the house. CHAIRPERSON So he was arrested there. MR MAFU He was not arrested, he out-manoeuvred the police. They had surrounded the homestead, but he managed to get out of the homestead. CHAIRPERSON So your engagement with the police, had nothing to do with his freedom? MR MAFU We didn't know by then that he had managed to get out of the house, because this had happened overnight and we were returning in the morning. CHAIRPERSON I know that, but now that you know what the facts are, I'm just confirming with you that his freedom was not the result of your engagement with the police? MR MAFU No. MR MGIDLANA Then in your application you also mention the Mzamba incident. How were you involved in respect of that incident. MR MAFU I was involved in the Mzamba incident in terms of supplying weaponry to Mayapi and Zamela, who were in my unit. MR LAX Did you help with the planning at all? MR MAFU Pardon? MR LAX Did you help with the planning of that? MR MAFU Well I would say it was preliminary planning in the sense of just identifying the target, not specifically where the limpet mine would be placed. MR LAX And did you give approval for that operation? MR MAFU I did give approval for the operation. MR LAX And what was the object? MR MAFU The object was the Wild Coast Casino. MR LAX Yes, I know. What was the objective of the attack there? MR MAFU The objective of the attack was to make a political statement in the area and in terms of taking the war to everybody. MR MGIDLANA When you say everybody, what do you mean? MR MAFU Everybody, even those fraternised the casinos. CHAIRPERSON You say you supplied the firearms, or the ammunition. MR MAFU I supplied the limpet mines as well as the firearms, but there were no firearms used, it was only placing of the limpet mine. MR MGIDLANA So in respect of all these incidents, except for the Logwaiso one where you did not supply the weaponry, did you supply any weapons to Longono? MR MAFU Yes, I did supply weapons to him because he was falling under my unit. MR MGIDLANA So in respect of all these incidents, you had supplied weaponry when you - were these licensed firearms and explosives, did you have any authority to possess this weaponry? MR MAFU No, they were not licensed firearms. They were weapons of Eastern origin. These weapons we brought into the country for purposes of pursuing the armed struggle. CHAIRPERSON Just get this thing straight there with me, I'm not too clear on it. You say this Mzamba holiday resort was in actual fact a resort which included a Casino. MR MAFU Yes, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Was it targeted, the resort targeted because it had a casino? MR MAFU Not necessarily the Casino, because it had a Casino. As I'm saying the purpose then was to take war to everybody, there was an escalation of armed struggle. If I remember well then the clarion call by the ANC then was to take war even to the white suburbs, if I remember, so this was in that light. CHAIRPERSON But wasn't the call and I'm not sure of my dates now, 8th of January 87 I think, was in fact that call, but wasn't it a qualified call to take it to State institutions? MR MAFU I may not be sure of the exact dates and maybe in terms of the briefings that filtered to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, let us not talk about the dates then, but that particular call to take it even to the white suburbs, was that not a qualified call to take it to the white suburbs, but to attack State institutions, like police stations? MR MAFU Well at the time, and may be Casino was all, the one ...(indistinct) was also owned mainly by the Transkei Government, that might have qualified as a State institution. I'm not referring to the people inside because care had been taken in that operation not to place it maybe in the machines where the people ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON You say care was taken to minimise any casualties. MR MAFU I don't understand. CHAIRPERSON You said care was taken to minimise any casualties. MR MAFU Yes. CHAIRPERSON When you planned this and approved of this attack, was that the reasoning that the Casino should be targeted because it was owned by the then Transkei government and therefore qualified as a State institution? MR MAFU Yes. Yes, Judge, because in our understanding it was that it was generated income for the Transkei Government and therefore supported that regime. CHAIRPERSON Can I just be absolutely clear, this Casino you're talking about is what's known as the Wild Coast Sun. MR MAFU That's right. MR MGIDLANA In your application you also make some kind of a general application in the sense that you claim responsibility ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you go to there Mr Mgidlana, is he entitled to make such an application? MR MGIDLANA In actual fact I was trying to get to that exactly Judge, because in my view, he can't be ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well isn't that a legal matter that you must advise your client on? MR MGIDLANA In fact I just wanted him to comment on it, be very difficult for him to say what specific incidents. CHAIRPERSON Well I will accept that you cleared it with him and he was unable to do so and that's the end of the matter. MR MGIDLANA As it pleases. CHAIRPERSON But I'm not going to stop you, if you really want him to give that answer, then proceed, but it's not going to make much difference. MR MAFU Yes, thank you Chair. Are there any other incidents that probably you now recall? CHAIRPERSON Well it's a bit too late, the date has gone by. MR MGIDLANA Well, they may have been covered under that general application. He will then be recalling them now Judge. CHAIRPERSON You would be in the same position whether he recalls it now or not. MR MGIDLANA There's another issue that has been brought up regarding an incident that took place in the Maclear ...area regarding policemen. CHAIRPERSON Did he make application for that? MR MGIDLANA He hasn't Judge, but it's just that it came up from the TRC evidence analyst, so I just want him to comment on it. CHAIRPERSON But in his application, he doesn't make mention of it? MR MGIDLANA He doesn't make mention, yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the purpose of you raising that incident? For him to apply for amnesty? MR MGIDLANA No, Judge, I just wanted him to clear us out, whether he was involved or not. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MGIDLANA Thank you Judge. Involving policemen that were shot. You may have heard about it from the evidence analyst from the TRC, is that correct? MR MAFU Yes, I heard about it. MR MGIDLANA Were you in any manner involved? MR MAFU I was not involved, but I know of the incident since it was involving members of the unit under me. MR LAX I didn't hear your answer, members of? MR MAFU Of my unit. MR LAX Of your unit, sorry. MR MGIDLANA So you were not involved in the planning and even the execution thereof? MR MAFU It was not a planned operation, I think it was just a meeting engagement between two members of the unit and the police patrol van. MR MGIDLANA So you are not seeking any amnesty in respect of that? MR MAFU No. MR MGIDLANA That is the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Now Mr Mgidlana, can you give us an indication in respect of each incident, what he actually applied for? Let us take the incident, the Borris Sedawu. MR MGIDLANA In respect of the Borris Sedawu incident Judge, he's seeking amnesty in respect of the possession and supplying of unlicensed firearms, unlawful and unlicensed explosives and explosive devices in this form of the limpet mine, as well as malicious damage to property. It could be viewed as attempted murder or assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm in respect of the person that was injured, as well as what could be generally called conspiracy to commit an offence, which if he were to be charged, it could be said to be unknown to the State in respect of his involvement in the planning. MR LAX Does he remember precisely what kind of limpet mine it was? MR MAFU No, I can't remember. MR LAX Was it a standard used ... MR MAFU Standard. CHAIRPERSON ...subject to what you've got to say, is it not, is this matter not a question of an application for amnesty in respect of sabotage in the attacking that building? What you've mentioned is all competent verdicts that arise out of that incident and if we were to grant him amnesty, it would be in fact for sabotage of that building. MR MGIDLANA I agree with that Judge. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay. Let's get onto the second. MR MGIDLANA In respect of the second incident which is Madeira police station. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR MGIDLANA Again it will be sabotage in respect of that incident. Murder, because we now know that there were people who were killed. CHAIRPERSON How many people died there? Seven? MR MGIDLANA Excuse me? CHAIRPERSON How many people died? MR MGIDLANA It seems there are about eight Judge. CHAIRPERSON Eight? MR MGIDLANA About eight yes, even though I don't know whether they died there and then, or subsequent to that. CHAIRPERSON Five people were injured? MR MGIDLANA Yes, it could be in respect of them attempted murder as well as alternative loss of ...(indistinct) Excuse me Judge? CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA Malicious injury to property as well. Possession and supplying of explosives and firearms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct- mike not on) MR MGIDLANA Grenade ja, a hand grenade. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA And firearms, according to his evidence. He says there was ... CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA In the Logwaiso incident it will be possession of unlicensed firearms as well as ammunition, which they used to ... CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA Yes, that was our incident as well as, if anyone was injured, attempted murder or assault, yes. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA Yes, that could be attempted ... We are not so sure as to whether any police vehicles were damaged, but in the event that they were, Judge, we will be also seeking amnesty in respect of malicious injury to property. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MR MGIDLANA Yes. In respect of that one, it is the supply ... yes, yes, as well as the possession of the explosives and firearms and ammunition that he supplied those operatives with. Again understanding that there was murder and some people who were injured in that incident, in the event that it could be said that he could have been charged under the common purpose doctrine, we would apply for amnesty in respect of that murder as well as alternatively attempted murder and assault. Mali-cious damage to property as well in respect of that one. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? MR MGIDLANA Over and above, there's these offences I mentioned of conspiracy to commit an offence unknown to the State. That will be all. I may as well indicate that I'm also certain, I'm just subject to being given guidance by the Committee, insofar as his failure to report to the police that the people who committed these various offences are so and so and so when he knew them. CHAIRPERSON I know that that is a technical point that the academics normally raise, but I can think, for the life of me, that a person who commits a crime has any intention of walking into a police station and saying: "Look, I committed this." The fact that he committed a crime means he doesn't want anybody to find out, so he would want to go there. I don't know even if there's a duty. MIKE TURNED OFF ...to explore. Is there anything else? MR MGIDLANA I think then on that note Judge, that is all. Again of course unless there are others that the Panel ... NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA CHAIRPERSON Mr Nontenja. MR NONTENJA At this point, Judge, I'd ask for a short adjournment so that I can take proper and further instructions from my client in respect of the application made by the applicant and the revelations which were not to our knowledge. CHAIRPERSON How long will you need? MR NONTENJA I don't think it's going to be too long Judge, it could be less than 10 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BASIL DUMISANE MAFU (s.u.o.) MR NONTENJA Thank you Judge. Judge, we have just a few questions to the applicant according to my instructions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NONTENJA Mr Mafu, in respect of the Borris Sedawu incident, you're saying the timing of the bomb was intended to explode before 8 o'clock, is that correct? MR MAFU Correct, Sir. MR NONTENJA Why was it so? MR MAFU It was timed to explode before 8 o'clock, because after 8 o'clock there are people who are working in Borris Sedawu. MR NONTENJA Okay. If I understand you well, it was your intention not to injure ordinary citizens in your operation, is that correct? MR MAFU Correct, Sir. MR NONTENJA Now in respect of the Madeira incident, your timing was 10 p.m., is that correct? MR MAFU Correct, Sir. MR NONTENJA And I take it that you are aware that at 10 o'clock, 10 p.m., people were in great numbers, rushing for the curfew permits at the charge office, is that correct? MR MAFU Our experience was that towards 10 o'clock, at about quarter to, police start chasing people away to say it's almost curfew time, go now. So we were under the impression that by 10 o'clock, at least it's already cleared with people who had come to request permits. MR NONTENJA I take it that you are aware that at the time of the arrival of the members, of your members, members of your unit, they could clearly see before commencing their attack, that there was quite a number of people inside the charge office before attacking. MR MAFU I may not be sure of that. MR NONTENJA But now, according to the statistics and in terms of the bundle of papers, the number of victims consists of ordinary citizens, instead of police officers, is that not so? MR MAFU I'm not sure about the statistics. MR NONTENJA You didn't peruse the bundle of papers? MR MAFU I beg your pardon? MR NONTENJA Did you peruse the bundle of papers? MR MAFU Yes. MR NONTENJA First page, to the second page. Let me rephrase my question. The number of people who died is more the police officers who were at work at that point in time. Are you aware of that? MR MAFU I'm not aware Sir. I see some are referred to in their police denominations, others are not. I'm not sure who's a civilian, who's not a civilian, in the list as it stands. MR NONTENJA Now are you aware that one of the victims was attacked far away from the Madeira Police Station during your operation at that point in time? At Sprigg Street, to be precise. MR LAX Sorry, will you repeat that name for us please. MR NONTENJA The victim? MR LAX The name of the street. MR NONTENJA Sprigg Street. MR LAX Spruit Street? MR NONTENJA S-P-R-I-G-G. MR LAX Sprigg. MR NONTENJA Yes and her name was Mama. Are you aware of that? MR MAFU I'm not aware Sir, but I wouldn't say that would be impossible. I don't know what must have happened. There might have been some hiccup or misunderstanding in the heat of the moment. CHAIRPERSON What does that mean? MR MAFU As I'm saying Judge, I'm not sure of what happened. There might have been some obstruction which might have been misinterpreted by people in that emotional situation, I mean from members from my unit. As I'm saying, I'm not sure exactly of what happened. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Nontenja, you're saying that the person you refer to as the deceased, was killed as a result of the attack for which Mr Mafu makes application? MR NONTENJA Exactly, exactly, Judge. CHAIRPERSON Have you got more details as to how that happened? MR NONTENJA Those at the instructions from my client. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but surely when you consulted, you must have got details? MR NONTENJA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So let's hear those details, put it to the witness. MR NONTENJA Thank you. Immediately after the attack at the Madeira police station, a street on the other street, which is named Sprigg street, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you know where is Sprigg Street in Umtata? MR MAFU ...(indistinct - mike not on) CHAIRPERSON Do you know where is Sprigg Street? MR MAFU Yes, I know. CHAIRPERSON Can the witness get one of these things? MR LAX English is on Channel 2. CHAIRPERSON Do you know where Sprigg Street is in Umtata? MR MAFU Yes, I know Judge. CHAIRPERSON It's apparently off Madeira Street, or near Madeira Street. MR MAFU It's a street parallel to Madeira Street. CHAIRPERSON Now it's been put to you that something occurred in Sprigg Street immediately after the attack on the police station at Madeira, am I correct? MR NONTENJA That is correct, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now can you tell the witness what exactly you're referring to, what happened and where? MR NONTENJA In fact are you aware of that incident which occurred immediately after ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He said it might have happened, it doesn't know. Have you got details for him to try to remember or to deal with? MR NONTENJA My Lord, I just - I wanted to ask him, in fact, as he indicated right from the beginning that he was not personally involved in that operation, I just wanted to find out from him whether he was aware of this incident which occurred at Sprigg Street. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware of an incident that occurred in Sprigg Street immediately after? MR MAFU No, I was not aware of anything that happened in Sprigg Street. CHAIRPERSON You see, I appreciate what your position is because it's not been put to you in any detail. We talk about the incident. We must now assume it was a violent incident related to your unit's activities, that's why I asked Mr Nontenja, you know, give us some details so that we could connect it. It may be some other incident, like a knife stabbing or something that had nothing to do with your unit. We don't know and that's why I think it's better to clearly put it to the witness, maybe he can say: "Look, I know" or "I don't know". MR NONTENJA Thank you Judge. Mr Mafu, it is alleged that immediately after the commission of the operation at Madeira Street the members of your unit attacked person in Sprigg Street. Are you aware of that? MR MAFU I'm not aware of that incident, Mr Nontenja. What I know is that during the commission of the operation there was another member of the unit who was deployed outside the police station, because there were some policemen coming in, so I know there was shooting and outside the police station. I'm not aware of Madeira Street. CHAIRPERSON Of Sprigg Street. MR MAFU Of Sprigg Street, I'm sorry. MR NONTENJA My Lord, I don't have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NONTENJA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Mafu, I also don't have any questions with regard to the incidents you've applied for, except just to clarify the issue of dates and maybe one other aspect. On page 27 of the bundle there's a newspaper article, do you have sight of it? MR MAFU Yes. MS THABETHE Okay. In the third column towards the end, there's a line which says "Following a bomb attack at Mzamba One Stage hotel on April 18 1986..." then it goes on. Would you concede that this is the date? Do you have any problem with that, that this is the date on which this incident happened? MR MAFU As I'm saying Ma'am, I might not be sure of the sequence of events. I'm not sure. I can't dispute that that was the date. MS THABETHE Okay. Also on page 27 of the bundle, the second column now, further up, there's a paragraph starting with "After details of shoot-out ..." Do you have sight of that paragraph? MR MAFU Yes. MS THABETHE It makes mention of Zolile Nklati as the Commander of the ANC's military machinery in Transkei. Do you have any knowledge of this person? Was this person the military Commander? MR MAFU Well as you are aware Ma'am, this was not written by me, it must have come from somewhere else. I know that we went under very different names. At some stage, Makadeza was Zolile, he had gone under different names. I don't know who Zolile Nklati is. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA Thank you Judge. Just a follow up Mr Mafu on this Zolile Nklati. You'll see that it appears there that there were four people involved in this incident, as mentioned in that report. How many people were involved in that particular operation? MR MAFU In the operation we were three. As I've mentioned, it was Kaya, Maziz, Makadeza and myself. MR MGIDLANA Sorry you were saying that people were going under different names. Did I get you as mentioning Makadeza as one of the persons commonly known as Zolile? MR MAFU Yes, I'm saying that at one stage he went under the name Zolile. MR MGIDLANA So shall we take it therefore that that could be a repetition, one and the same person? MR MAFU Maybe. MR MGIDLANA But otherwise you are certain that there was no other person by that name involved in that particular incident? MR MAFU That's correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA MR LAX Mr Mafu, you'll accept if one looks again at page 27 in the first column towards the bottom there's an underlined portion which refers to the shoot-out as having occurred on the 21st and 22nd. From that we will infer that your involvement was on the 22nd. MR MAFU Correct. MR LAX It just helps us peg the date clearly. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mgidlana, have you got any argument. Before that, have you got any other witnesses? MR MGIDLANA No, there's no other witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nontenja, have you got any witnesses? MR NONTENJA No witness to call. MS THABETHE No witnesses. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any submissions to make? MR MGIDLANA Yes, very few Judge. MR MGIDLANA IN ARGUMENT My submission is that from the evidence of the applicant, it is clear that he committed these particular offences as a member of an identifiable political organisation, namely the African National Congress as well as being a member of the Military Wing of the ANC, namely Umkhonto weSizwe. Furthermore it is clear that the targets were targets that were associated with the political order in existence in the area called Transkei. They were indeed Government installations, even in respect of Mzamba, we have heard that the Transkei Government was owning the portion of whatever share holding was there and as such deriving some funds for the operation of that Government. There is no evidence suggesting that the applicant committed these offences in furtherance of his own ambition, personal ambition. He was involved in all these incidents in furtherance of the struggle, he being on the side of the liberation movement, fighting against an oppressive government that we all know was in existence in that area and as such he did not derive any benefit. There hasn't been any suggestion made to the effect that he has not made any full disclosure and as such my submission is that his evidence has just been so clear and is in compliance with the promotion of Reconciliation Act and as such he has made full disclosure and it is my submission that he qualifies to be granted amnesty and I therefore apply that such amnesty be granted in the favour of the applicant. That is all. MR NONTENJA Thank you. Thank you Judge. MR NONTENJA IN ARGUMENT According to the instructions of my clients, although they are not opposed to the granting of the application, but they do not have the final detail to that effect, it is therefore in the hands of this Honourable Committee to make a finding accordingly. Thank you. MS THABETHE I have no objections to amnesty being granted. NO ARGUMENT BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. We will reserve our decision in this matter and it will be delivered in due course. MR MGIDLANA Thank you Judge. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, what is the position at the moment? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, the position is that I had set down three matters for today. The Mafu matter, Mahambane matter and the Pilay matter. I haven't seen Mr Pilay yet. Mr Mahambane is here. I had requested the legal representatives to be here at 2, the representatives in the matter of Mahambane, but I did telephone them and requested them to come earlier. The lawyer for the victims is present, I've seen her. Ms Loonat is on her way. She said she'd be here by half past 12, so I would request an indulgence of maybe five to ten minutes and I'll let the Committee know as soon as they are here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so be it. MS THABETHE Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS