amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-28 DURBAN 1 MUSA MAHAMBANE AM6172/97 MURDER OF MR WALTERS, BANK ROBBERY AND ATTEMPTED HI-JACKING https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54426&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200828db.htm CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon. The Panel is the same as we were constituted this morning. I'm going to ask the legal representatives to announce themselves for the purpose of the record. MS LOONAT Good afternoon. My name is Zarina Loonat ...(indistinct). I'm representing the applicant in this matter today, Mr Musa Mahambane. Thank you. MS DE KLERK Good afternoon Members of the Panel. I'm Marcia de Klerk. I'm representing the victim, Mrs Walters, Martin Craven, Mrs ...(indistinct), Mrs ...(indistinct) and Mrs Smith. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Is it Ms de Klerk? MS DE KLERK That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Could you just go by those names of the people, of the victims again please? MS DE KLERK Mrs Walters who's the next of kin of Derek Walters who is ... CHAIRPERSON Deceased? MS DE KLERK That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And who else? MS DE KLERK Mr Craven, Martin Craven. Then Mr de Grubb. However Miss de Grubb hasn't been included in the indictment, you know, for the trial. He hasn't suffered any injuries. CHAIRPERSON But is he willing to participate in the process because he can still be regarded as a victim? MS DE KLERK Well Mr de Grubb, I have got his instructions to oppose the application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Then? MS DE KLERK Then there's Mrs Barkor who is present. Mr Barkor is the wife of Vic Barkor who was shot in the eye outside the NBS, who has subsequently a few months later died. CHAIRPERSON As a result of his injury? MS DE KLERK Well, that hasn't been ascertained as a definite conclusion. Mr Barkor died of a brain haemorrhage which could have been as a result of the injuries sustained. Then there's Mrs Catherine Druft. Mrs Druft has also indicated to me, well given me her instructions to oppose the application. However, she's unavailable to attend the hearing today on the basis that she underwent an operation on Friday and she's still hospitalised. And then there's Mrs Gloria Smith. She said that she's not interested in attending the hearing or anything, but she does oppose the application. CHAIRPERSON Does not, or does? MS DE KLERK She opposes the application for amnesty. However, she's not interested in attending the hearing as such. CHAIRPERSON Now before we carry on, I see you have possibly 6 people who could be regarded as victims, all of whom are opposing the application. On what basis would they be opposing the application given the requirements of the Act? MS DE KLERK The basis of the opposition is the fact that they don't feel that the robbery as such, or the murder of Mr Walters, was politically motivated. They can't see the political object which the applicant was striving to achieve. It seems to be common amongst all the victims that this was just a blatant robbery, an attempted hijacking, whereby an innocent person, because he couldn't get loose of a seat belt, was murdered. In terms of ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Who was that, Mr Walters? MS DE KLERK Mr Walters. In light of that, that the applicant doesn't fulfil the requirements in order for him to succeed in the application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Ms de Klerk in the meantime I think it'd be wise for you to get some information where applicable, where people have died, whether there are any children left as well, because they would, in the event of us granting in this case amnesty, they in addition to the surviving spouse, would be regarded as victims. Yes, Ms Loonat. Does your client speak Zulu? MS LOONAT Yes, Mr Chairman. MUSA MAHAMBANE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, you were born on the 29th of March 1966 in Newlands in Durban, you are a South African citizen, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. MS LOONAT You are now 34 years old and you have spent, according to the record, 7 years in prison of your 20 year sentence, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. MS LOONAT The sentence was imposed on you on the 23rd of May 1993, for committing the following offences on the 26th of October 1991, at the NBS, the Natal Building Society, in Umhlanga, namely robbery, attempted murder of Mr Barkor, Messrs Barkor, Reed and Craven and the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON In respect of who are the attempted murder application made? MS LOONAT Mr Barkor, Mr Reed and Mr Craven. Your Honour, this is on page 64 of the bundle, line 20. CHAIRPERSON Mr Barkor, Mr ? MS LOONAT Reed and Mr Craven and I get that from the bundle on page 64. CHAIRPERSON And the murder of? MS LOONAT The murder of Mr Walters. CHAIRPERSON Ja and? MS LOONAT The unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Anything else? MS LOONAT May I proceed Your Honour? Thank you. Sir, are you married? MR MAHAMBANE No. MS LOONAT Do you have any children? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I have two children. MS LOONAT Where do you live? Where do your children live? MR MAHAMBANE They live with my mother. MS LOONAT So were you employed prior to this offence? MR MAHAMBANE I used to be a taxi driver. MS LOONAT Do you have any previous convictions? MR MAHAMBANE No. MS LOONAT What political party do you belong to? MR MAHAMBANE The ANC. MS LOONAT Are you a registered member of the ANC? MR MAHAMBANE I am not a card carrying member. MS LOONAT Why didn't you get ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON At the time, were you? MR MAHAMBANE No, at that time it was not very important to have a card MS LOONAT How long were you a supporter of the ANC? MR MAHAMBANE I started supporting the ANC in 1985 after Mrs ...(indistinct) death. MS LOONAT Before we proceed, could you please tell the Panel what your level of education was at the time? MR MAHAMBANE Up to standard 9. MS LOONAT So it was after standard 9 that you got involved in politics, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE I was saying so, but we also used to have political meeting at school. MS LOONAT Do you own a firearm? MR MAHAMBANE No. MS LOONAT Are you trained to use one? MR MAHAMBANE We received very basic training on how to use a firearm. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR MAHAMBANE In the township. CHAIRPERSON By whom? MR MAHAMBANE By Mandla. CHAIRPERSON Who's Mandla? MR MAHAMBANE Mandla Mlambo was our leader. CHAIRPERSON What kind of leader? MR MAHAMBANE He is the person who used to issue out instructions when we held meetings. CHAIRPERSON For what? MR MAHAMBANE At the time, we were under constant attack from Lindelane residents and the police, so we were involved in defending our community. CHAIRPERSON What type of instructions did he give? MR MAHAMBANE As to strategising as to how to best defend ourselves against these attacks. CHAIRPERSON And he taught you how to use a firearm? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, he was the person who demonstrated to us. CHAIRPERSON How many lessons did you have? MR MAHAMBANE It was not very thorough, but he just showed us the firearm and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How many lessons did you have? MR MAHAMBANE I will say two occasions. CHAIRPERSON Two occasions. In kwaMashu? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How many students were there when you were trained on these two occasions? MR MAHAMBANE We were not more than 10. CHAIRPERSON So he would do at least, or most, 10 at a time? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, we'd never be more than 10. CHAIRPERSON What kind of gun or firearm were you trained in? MR MAHAMBANE It was a 9mm and a pump gun. CHAIRPERSON Was that at the same lesson or on different lessons? MR MAHAMBANE He first brought the pump gun and then subsequently he brought smaller firearms. CHAIRPERSON And each of the students would be trained in a gun? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I will say so. CHAIRPERSON Now how did it come you were part of this training session? MR MAHAMBANE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON How did it come that you were part of the training programme? MR MAHAMBANE I was a little bit older than my colleagues. CHAIRPERSON Ja and then? MR MAHAMBANE I'm saying, he had faith in me. CHAIRPERSON Maybe you misunderstand the question. How did it come that you were told to go to this training session? MR MAHAMBANE I realised the severity of the situation in the area at that time and decided that one should receive training. ...(END OF TAPE) on how to use a firearm. CHAIRPERSON For what purpose? MR MAHAMBANE To defend ourselves, so that we would be in a position to fight the attackers. CHAIRPERSON When you got the training, were you employed at that time? MR MAHAMBANE No, I was not. CHAIRPERSON Were you not looking for work at the time? MR MAHAMBANE I was looking for work. CHAIRPERSON How long did these sessions take? MR MAHAMBANE It would be less than an hour. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Loonat. MR LAX Can I just ask something Chair, while you're at it? When did these training sessions take place? What year? MR MAHAMBANE I do not recall precisely, but this happened after 1985, around 86, 87. MR LAX Thank you. MS LOONAT Thank you. Sir, you say Mandla was the person who taught you the use of firearms. How did he become a leader in your eyes? MR MAHAMBANE Mandla used to reside in G Section but he was requested by the people from L Section to come reside in our area, so that he could help to protect the community and he was also the person who used to liaise with people in senior positions. MS LOONAT Who is Bheki Manzi? MR MAHAMBANE He's a school principal and he is the person who fetched Mandla from G Section and let him stay at his home for the purpose of helping in the protection of the community. MS LOONAT So you say that Mandla was brought from G Section to L Section to assist you all with training and things to do with the ANC party, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE He was brought from G Section to K Section. MS LOONAT Is that where you resided, K Section? MR MAHAMBANE I resided at L Section. MS LOONAT Please tell the members of the Panel what got you interested in politics? MS LAX Sorry, can I just clarify something. Sorry to interrupt. You said earlier that he was requested by the people of L Section to come and live in your area, now you're saying he lived in K Section. What Section did you live in? MR MAHAMBANE Bheki Manzi brought Mandla from G Section and let him stay in his house in K Section and he was there to assist in protecting the community. I resided at L Section. MS LAX You spoke about Bheki Manzi. MR MAHAMBANE Yes. MS LAX Your evidence was and I've got a note here, that he used to reside in G Section, he was requested by the people of L Section and he came to live in our area to protect the community. Then you were asked about Bheki Manzi and you said Manzi went and fetched him from G Section. CHAIRPERSON Well, clear it up perhaps. MS LAX Just clarify it for us please. CHAIRPERSON Where was he staying? Where were you staying? MR MAHAMBANE Mandla used to reside at G Section. Bheki Manzi fetched him to stay at his home so that he could assist. I resided at L Section. MS LAX So what section was he assisting to defend? MR MAHAMBANE K Section. MS LAX Not L Section? MR MAHAMBANE No. MR LAX So how did you come to be involved in protecting K Section? MR MAHAMBANE We were protecting our Section, L Section, not K, it's Mandla who was brought to K Section. MR LAX Anyway you can clear it up in due course. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, please tell the Honourable Members of this Panel what got you interested in politics from your school days? What events led up to your interest, your active participation in politics? MR MAHAMBANE Firstly it was the death of Mrs ...(indistinct). After that incident all shops were burned down in the township. CHAIRPERSON When was Griffiths killed? MR MAHAMBANE Please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON When was he killed? Was it Victoria? When was Victoria killed? MR MAHAMBANE 1985. CHAIRPERSON Did you know her? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON How did you know her? MR MAHAMBANE She used to represent comrades. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR MAHAMBANE In 1987, her boy, who was my neighbour, Sikumbuso Ndlovo, as killed in Lindelane. The people who killed him who were Mr Tshabalala's men, were arrested but later released. MS LOONAT Who is Mr Tshabalala? MR MAHAMBANE He was a leader in Lindelane. MS LOONAT Leader of which party? MR MAHAMBANE The IFP. MS LOONAT And this is when you witnessed the death of your friends, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE There were seven of them who were found dead in Lindelane and one of them was my neighbour, Sikumbuso Ndlovo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mahambane, now you got interested in politics, in 1985 you joined the ANC, correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And I assume that that was after Victoria Ntenye was killed. MR MAHAMBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You were not a comrade before then? MR MAHAMBANE Everyone in the township was a comrade. CHAIRPERSON Excuse me? MR MAHAMBANE We were all comrades in the township. CHAIRPERSON Well then maybe you understand comrades not the way I do. And you learned to use a firearm in 1986/87 you say? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON As a comrade, under which banner did you, or let me put it this way, were you politically active? MR MAHAMBANE What do you mean? CHAIRPERSON Did you do anything under a political banner? MR MAHAMBANE We would hold meetings at the township. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? You'd only have meetings? MR MAHAMBANE We also used to guard over the township at night. CHAIRPERSON What were the meetings about? MR MAHAMBANE We used to discuss means of securing funds to be able to buy ammunition and firearms to defend ourselves. CHAIRPERSON In 1986/87? MR MAHAMBANE Around that time. CHAIRPERSON Yes and what were the means discussed and decided upon of acquiring funds? MR MAHAMBANE I would inquire from Mandla if the organisation had no funds available and he said there were none, so we were supposed to take our own initiative on how to secure funds. CHAIRPERSON Like what? MR MAHAMBANE At the time, we used to hold discussions on the issue, but no decision would be taken. CHAIRPERSON But surely some ideas must have been raised at that meeting. MR MAHAMBANE What used to happen was when funds were available, people used to use them to go into exile. CHAIRPERSON Maybe you don't understand the question, I'm going to put it one more time. You say in the meetings you used to discuss funding of the organisation. Now what was suggested there in those meetings regarding the accumulation of funds? How would you people be able to get funds? MR MAHAMBANE There were many ideas put forth, for example the stealing of vehicles. MR LAX Yes, carry on. MR MAHAMBANE I cannot recall other ideas. CHAIRPERSON Yes and these meetings were being conducted since about 1985 you say, when you joined the organisation? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON For how long did these meetings take place where ways and means of getting funds were discussed? I'm not asking how long each meeting lasted, I'm saying these meetings were held over a period, which, can you give us an idea as to what that period was? MR MAHAMBANE Our meetings would not last long because we could not arrive at a decision. CHAIRPERSON Now did such meetings - such meetings were held in 1985, correct? MR MAHAMBANE They were held from 1985. CHAIRPERSON 1986? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON 1987? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When did these, as far as you're concerned, when did these meetings stop? MR MAHAMBANE Some comrades fled into exile during that course of time, but they lasted up until 1990's. CHAIRPERSON So every year from 1985 to 1990, you attended various meetings regarding the accumulation of funds, am I correct? Do I understand you correctly? MR MAHAMBANE It was not only the question of funds that was discussed at those meetings, there were other issues that were raised. I just regret the fact that I'm addressing people who do not know what type of life we led at the township at that time. CHAIRPERSON Let me rest you assured that each and every one of us are aware of what type of life was lived in South Africa. Apart from that, the quality of life we lived, different people, has nothing to do with the question. All I'm asking is as far as you're concerned, when did you stop attending such meetings? MR MAHAMBANE We used to attend those meetings even in 1990, 1991. CHAIRPERSON Now you can remember the only method of accumulating funds that you remember, you say, was stealing vehicles. That was one of the suggestions, correct? MR MAHAMBANE It was not only that, but there was also a suggestion for every person to contribute something towards that fund. CHAIRPERSON Now were you told now what to do with this, or how was this car going to help your treasury? MR MAHAMBANE It would have been sold. CHAIRPERSON Who would sell it? CHAIRPERSON There are people who buy stolen cars in the township. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that's not the question. Who would see it, not who would buy it. Who would sell it? MR MAHAMBANE I could have sold it because I know of certain people in the township. CHAIRPERSON I see, that's what I was getting at. What I'm trying to find out is once a car is stolen, what would be done with that car? Would the thief go sell it or would you be expected to hand it in to certain official of the organisation for him to sell it? What would be the position? MR MAHAMBANE We would have approach Mandla about the latter and he would have to decide how to dispose of the car. CHAIRPERSON I ask that question because we've heard this type of evidence before, but yet you tell me you could have sold it. What is the correct position? MR MAHAMBANE The primary issue was getting the funds, it was not so important who sold the vehicle. We could have sold it on our own and brought the money back to Mandla. CHAIRPERSON Wasn't it the rule that once you stole a car, you should go to your Commander and say: "Look, we have succeeded in stealing a car. We have it. What must we do now with it?" Wasn't that the practice? MR MAHAMBANE Unfortunately no vehicle was stolen, but it was an idea that was raised at a meeting. CHAIRPERSON So in the five or six years that you were involved in these meetings where amongst other things ideas as to how to raise funds, including the theft of vehicles, you were not party to such an event, am I correct? MR MAHAMBANE There were many things that took place. CHAIRPERSON Can you just repeat that, Ms Interpreter? INTERPRETER The applicant said there were many things that took place at the time. MR LAX Didn't he also say he couldn't remember as a result? INTERPRETER Some of which he could not remember. CHAIRPERSON Where's Mandla now? MR MAHAMBANE I have been in prison for a while, so I do not know whether he's still alive. MS LOONAT Your Honour, may I add to that please? This matter was set down last year and because it was remanded for this year at that time because we couldn't get hold of Mandla, the investigation wasn't properly done. At the time we were in Pietermaritzburg and Lulama Mtanga was the Evidence Leader and whilst we were there in Pietermaritzburg, she phoned a telephone number that my client had given her. It was the neighbour of Mandla, and that is when she realised that there was such a person, when the person at the other end answered and so this is why we remanded for this year, because there was some truth in what he was saying. It was a gentleman, or somebody called Kholane, who answered and said: "Yes, Mandla does live next door" and this was when the matter was remanded for this year because investigations weren't complete and I believe it's still not been followed up. I personally tried to phone this number when I was given instruction again this year and the number's dead. The number that was given then is 503 5077 and that is what I believe Ms Mtanga dialled while we were there, so there was an existence of such a person. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON So you tell us that over a period of 5 to 6 years, you cannot recollect whether there was a motor car theft, do I understand you correctly? Am I correct? There was never a car theft during that five or six years that you were attending these meetings? MR MAHAMBANE No, there was not. CHAIRPERSON Was there any other idea, or other way of raising funds for the organisation that was in fact put into operation? MR MAHAMBANE Will you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON You say that there was never a car theft during that period. Did the organisation or was the organisation able to raise funds in any other way during that period? MR MAHAMBANE There was a time when comrades collected or contributed towards assisting others to cross into exile, but that was not much. MR LAX But that had nothing to do with the collecting of money for firearms, that was for a different purpose, correct? MR MAHAMBANE It was not much, so it could not have bought firearms. We just gave it to the comrades who were going into exile. MR LAX So the only reason - the only manner collecting money that you know of that was discussed at all these meetings, was the stealing of vehicles? Do we understand you correctly? MR MAHAMBANE No, that is not so. We also managed to contribute or to collect some monies amongst ourselves, but it was not enough. MR LAX And besides that, was there any other manner of collecting money, besides the two you have now mentioned? MR MAHAMBANE Eventually Mandla realised that the issue of collecting funds was not progressing, so it was decided that we should go rob a bank. CHAIRPERSON When did that happen, or when was that decided? MR MAHAMBANE In 1990. CHAIRPERSON Was it in one of these meetings? MR MAHAMBANE Because he trusted me, Mandla called me aside. CHAIRPERSON Was it at one of these meetings? MR MAHAMBANE It was after the meeting that he approached me. CHAIRPERSON Did he approach you privately, or in front of others? MR MAHAMBANE He just called me to the side. CHAIRPERSON Yes and then? MR MAHAMBANE Then he told me that because of our failure to secure funds in any other manner, he realises that we would have to rob a bank and there was one bank that he knew of. He also instructed me to get two other people to assist in that mission. CHAIRPERSON Did I hear you correctly, he told you which bank to go to? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And you say this instruction came in 1990? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON More or less in which month? MR MAHAMBANE It was towards the end of the year. CHAIRPERSON Yes and then what happened? MR LAX Can I just check something, if I may. Did he also say to you that you should get two others to help you? Did I hear that properly? MR MAHAMBANE He said because he could not identify anybody he trusted in the meeting, I should look two other people who would assist me. MR LAX So he didn't know of any other comrades to help you with this, therefore he told you to find two other people. Is that right? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I think so, that's how we saw it. MR LAX Well did he tell you that or didn't he? MR MAHAMBANE The comrades were busy at K Section, so they could not have assisted us. MR LAX But you told us a few seconds ago that it was because he didn't have anyone he trusted. You told us a few seconds ago, you told us that he didn't have anyone that he trusted therefore you should look for someone else. Do you understand the question? MR MAHAMBANE Please repeat that question. MR LAX I said to you, I was trying to clarify whether he had told you to find other people or not and you said yes, there was no-one else that he trusted at the meeting, no other comrades that he trusted that were present there and therefore you should find other people. MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I was supposed to look for two other persons. MR LAX Yes. The issue here is the reason why you should go and look for other people. You don't understand what I'm saying to you? MR MAHAMBANE I would not be able to say or state the reason with certainty because he was the one who told me to go and look for other persons. CHAIRPERSON Why would you answer like that if you're not sure? You were asked, how did it come that he asked you and you said he didn't trust other people in the meeting. MR MAHAMBANE I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON Then take my word for it, that was your answer. That he asked you, Mandla called you aside and told you that you should go rob a bank and you should go find assistance with two other people and he did so because he didn't trust anybody else in the meeting, but you. MR LAX Is that right? MR MAHAMBANE Ja, it's right. MR LAX So it wasn't a question that there were comrades that were busy at K Section and therefore they couldn't help you? MR MAHAMBANE Those comrades were from K Section, we resided at L. MR LAX Carry on. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, you have us understand that it was Mandla who instructed you to rob the bank in Umhlanga, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. MS LOONAT You had two co-accused with you. Who chose the two co-accused to assist you that day? MR MAHAMBANE I did. MS LOONAT Why did not Mandla chose them to help you? MR MAHAMBANE He said because I was going to be responsible for that job, I should decide on who to take with. MS LOONAT Were the two accused, members of the ANC party as well? MR MAHAMBANE No, they were just criminals. MS LOONAT Why did you chose two criminals to assist you in what was a politically motivated attack? MR MAHAMBANE I knew that they were criminals who were always after money. I knew that it would not be easy for them to refuse. MS LOONAT To refuse what? CHAIRPERSON To refuse the attraction of robbing a bank? MR MAHAMBANE They would not have refused to rob a bank because they were criminals who used to. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know of a few others who love money too. Now tell me, when you approached these two people, what was the arrangement you had with them? MR MAHAMBANE I informed them that there was a bank we were to rob. I informed them that there was a bank that we were supposed to rob and they said they wanted to go see it. CHAIRPERSON Tell us that whole story now. One of the things you must do to get amnesty, you must tell us everything. I want to know how you approached these people, how did you persuade them to participate? MR MAHAMBANE As I knew that they were criminals who were attracted to money, I was convinced that they would not refuse to accompany me, so when I arrived I told them that there was a job to do and they asked: "What?" I said it was a bank to rob and they wanted to go see the bank and we went. MR LAX But how did you know these people? MR MAHAMBANE They resided in the township and there aren't that many people. You know your fellow residents. MR LAX So they weren't friends of yours, they were just people you knew? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I knew them from afar, they were not my friends. MR LAX So they were really strangers to you, just people you knew that lived in the township and you knew that they were criminals. MR MAHAMBANE I would not call them strangers because we would sometimes meet at the soccer ground or wherever in the township. CHAIRPERSON In any case, you were supposed to be the main person in control, the Commander of this group to go rob a bank, correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I was. CHAIRPERSON What did you tell them why this job must be done? Did you tell them that? MR MAHAMBANE I did not give them any reasons. They would not have accepted my reasons, that it was for political reasons, because these were criminals. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell them that: "Look here ..." How did you propose to then share the money? This job -this robbery of this bank was supposed to be done and committed for the benefit of your organisation totally. How were you planning to get away with 100% of what you robbed that bank of and give it to Mandla or whoever, because here you had two accomplices who were criminals and lots of money? How were you going to overcome that? MR MAHAMBANE Before we left for that mission, we actually left from Mandla's home and we had planned that we would return there. CHAIRPERSON And, were they not told: "Look, when we go on this robbery, this is not a normal robbery like happened in the old days in Texas where we share the money. All this money we take, we're going to give it to the organisation", did you not tell them that? MR MAHAMBANE No, they would have refused, had I told them so. CHAIRPERSON Did Mandla tell them that? MR MAHAMBANE He did not tell them. CHAIRPERSON How were you going then to overcome this problem when they said: "Look, we want our share of the money. We're going to split it three ways." MR MAHAMBANE That would have been decided on our return. CHAIRPERSON I want you to think about that. We're going to adjourn for five minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MS LOONAT Your Honour, may I have permission first to address one matter that arose early in the evidence when I questioned my client about a previous conviction. At the time he denied it, but it's been worrying him because he did admit it to me and it seemed to have escaped my mind. He did have a previous conviction for stealing a purse, for which he got 4 strokes, he was 19 years old and he just wanted to clarify that before he proceeds. CHAIRPERSON ...(indistinct - mike not on) MS LOONAT Okay. Would you like me to question? Thank you. MUSA MAHAMBANE s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT (cont.) Mr Mahambane, you and your co-accused were instructed by Mandla to attack the bank and you left from Mandla's house at the time. The question is, when you obtained - if your robbery was a success, how were you going to convince two criminals who were not ANC supporters or members to hand over the money to Mandla? MR MAHAMBANE I trusted that Mandla and Bheki Manzi would be able to convince these two persons to hand over the money. I was the person, the primary person in that operation. I had the cash when we left the bank and from there we were going to go straight to Mandla's home. MR LAX Just clarify something. So Bheki Manzi knew about this plan as well? MR MAHAMBANE No, he did not know. MR LAX Well then how would he convince them if he didn't know about it? MR MAHAMBANE There is a person from whom Mandla received his instructions, I assumed that they would be able to convince these two persons between themselves. MR LAX Surely if he was going to convince them, he would have to know about the plan? He would have to know what they had done, to convince them to part with the money, surely? MR MAHAMBANE With regards to Bheki Manzi, I am just assuming that he should have assisted but the person who was close to me and whom I dealt with directly, was Mandla. CHAIRPERSON What makes things worse is that you took these two crooks to Mandla's house and you three leave from Mandla's house on this escapade of yours and yet you don't discuss it with Mandla as to: "Look here, I'm going to bring them back here with the money, you better see to it that you are able to convince them to part with the money", you just assume that Mandla and somebody else is going to be able to do so. How's that? MR MAHAMBANE I hoped that they would understand our mission because they were also aware of the circumstances under which we lived in the township. MR LAX So are you saying, they would understand that you were on a mission for the ANC? MR MAHAMBANE Even if it was not an ANC mission per se, but it was directed at defending our community, because the primary objective was to be able to buy ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Now tell me something, this crime was committed in 1991 October, correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON The ANC was unbanned in February 1990, correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON By October 1991, Umkhonto weSizwe was fully operational within the country, do you recall that? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, but at that time attacks on the townships had not stopped. We were still being attacked by the KwaZulu police. CHAIRPERSON Let me finish. Do you recall that Umkhonto weSizwe was operative in the country then? Correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I do recall. CHAIRPERSON And by then the ANC or MK had already structured self-defence units, correct? Do you recall that? MR MAHAMBANE They were not formed in the township. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure about that? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I am because there were still no-go areas in L Section. CHAIRPERSON That's precisely the point. No-go areas was a phenomenon that arose with the advent of self-defence units. Before the self-defence units came into operation, those that were causing strife had a free hand in the Council and when the SDU came about, that is when people said: "Look, there's no go areas and this is our area, that is your area. Let's keep apart and try to keep peace." Do you recall that? That's how it used to work, isn't it? MR MAHAMBANE I recall that, but I do not remember any SDUs at L Section, KwaMashu. CHAIRPERSON But you recall that, as I put it to you? MR MAHAMBANE I do recall and I used to hear about the establishment of SDUs, but it did not happen in our township. CHAIRPERSON You see why I'm raising that with you is that the SDUs, because you say Mandla was attached to through the ANC and the MK connections, the SDUs were being provided with firearms largely at that early stage. It's only long after that, well not so long, the period after that they found it necessary to embark on their own fund raising methods to obtain further ammunition and firearms, but not at that early stage. That's why I'm raising the issue of the SDU with you. Do you follow what I'm saying? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Now can you deal with that please. MR MAHAMBANE We did not receive any assistance from the organisation in terms of firearms. MR LAX Was Mandla linked to any SDUs as far as you know? MR MAHAMBANE No, I don't recall. I don't even understand the nature of the SDU's role, because it was something that I just heard about. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, all of you were armed on that particular day, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. MS LOONAT Where did you obtain these firearms? MR MAHAMBANE Mandla brought them. MS LOONAT Did you intend to use these loaded firearms that day? MR MAHAMBANE It was not our intention to go and kill anyone on that day, we just wanted to get the money. CHAIRPERSON Why was it necessary to come forward then? MR MAHAMBANE It was to be used as a threat so that they would hand over the money, because we did not shoot anyone at the bank. CHAIRPERSON One firearm would have done that. Is that not so? If it was to be used as a scare mechanism, then whether you have one gun or three guns, you'll have the same result, not so? MR MAHAMBANE I do not see how my accomplices would have agreed to go there unarmed. CHAIRPERSON That is so. When robbers go to a bank, they expect resistance, is that not so? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON And isn't that the reason why you people armed yourselves, to overcome the expected resistance? You know that at that time already banks were being guarded at the front door and in the bank by private guards, not so? MR MAHAMBANE Before we carried out the robbery, we went to survey the area and we did find out that there was no-one who guarded the bank and the staff inside the bank were all female. We thought that it was going to be easy to go in there and get the money. CHAIRPERSON I'll ask the question again. If it was going to be that easy, why take the guns? You knew that there could be resistance, is that not so, and all three of you were going to use your firearms if that resistance materialised. Correct? MR MAHAMBANE We did not know that there was going to be resistance, we just thought that we would just go in there, take the money and leave. CHAIRPERSON That only happened in Alice in Wonderland. You must have known that there was going to be resistance, you expected you, all robbers expect it. Now tell me, did all three of you go into the bank? MR MAHAMBANE I was in front because I carried the shotgun. Two of us went in and one remained outside. CHAIRPERSON And how did you get there? MR MAHAMBANE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON How did you get there? MR MAHAMBANE We drove there. CHAIRPERSON By taxi, car, what? MR MAHAMBANE We used a private vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Who drove? MR MAHAMBANE The driver fled once we were inside the bank. CHAIRPERSON Who drove the car? MR MAHAMBANE It was Themba. CHAIRPERSON Four of you went to the bank. One was driving, one guarded outside the bank and two of you went inside? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now where did Themba come from? It's the first time we're hearing about Themba now. MR MAHAMBANE Themba was the driver of the vehicle. He fled. He could not even be found. CHAIRPERSON Ja, you've already told us he fled, but who asked him to drive the car, or who asked him to participate in this robbery? MR MAHAMBANE I asked him. CHAIRPERSON What's his surname? MR MAHAMBANE I cannot recall his surname. CHAIRPERSON Was he also one of these crooks? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, he was. CHAIRPERSON When did you approach him? MR MAHAMBANE After I had approached these two persons, I realised that we needed a driver. CHAIRPERSON So you were going to have to overcome the problem of three other people wanting their share of the booty, not so? MR MAHAMBANE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON So you were going to go on this escapade on behalf of a political party to rob a bank for what could easily be only a quarter of the booty, correct? MR MAHAMBANE The primary aim was to obtain money to buy firearms. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any more questions Ms Loonat? MS LOONAT Yes, Your Honour. Mr Mahambane, there are affidavits in the record which is submitted by your two co-accused, denying any knowledge of the political motive of the robbery. Please will you comment on that. MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is so, because I did not disclose to them the objectives of robbing the bank. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, please tell us what happened, how did it come about that Mr Walters was killed on that day? MR MAHAMBANE Because the driver of the car had already fled when we got out of the bank, we realised that we did not have transport, so we had to look for a get-away car. Accused number 3 went to the driver's side and I went to the passenger's side. Mr Walters tried to unfasten his seat belt and because of the commotion at that time, my co-accused got a fright and fired at Mr Walters. MS LOONAT Did you fire any shots on that day? MR MAHAMBANE I do not recall firing any shots. When I was running away, I had the firearm pointed upwards all the time. MR LAX May I just ask a question, if I may. Mr Mahambane, in the judgment the Judge talks about, you were carrying the pump gun weren't you, it was a shot gun? MR MAHAMBANE That's true. MR LAX But that talks of several shot gun cartridges being picked up at the scene of the crime in the Judgment. If you like I'll find it for you and your lawyer can canvass it with you, but you can take my word for it. Was anyone else armed with a shot gun? MR MAHAMBANE As far as I can recall, I am the only person who had a shotgun. MR LAX Yes. And as far as you recall, you didn't fire it? MR MAHAMBANE I do not recall firing ...(indistinct) MR LAX Ja. Please carry on. MS LOONAT For the record, I did canvass the one shot that was fired, because I explained to my client that he did say that although he can't remember clearly, one shot did go off and he hurt himself with it accidentally, but he did not shoot at anybody at any time. Thank you. On page 45 of the bundle, line 10 it confirms that there was the unfired rounds in the magazine and one fired round in the chamber, for the record. So you did not form the intention at any time to kill or even shoot at anyone, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE No, I did not have any such intentions because even before we left, I did explain to my accomplices that we are not going out there to kill, but to obtain the money. MR LAX You see, it's all very well quoting from the record, but now you've drawn my attention to the portion that made me think of the question in the first place. It's patently clear from this, I'll read to you "It's clear from his own evidence as to the number of cartridges which were loaded and those found in the gun which was taken from him, that he's not being frank in this regard." So it's clear that there were several shots fired, not just one and that's what the Judge found in the matter. He's telling us he can't remember firing a single shot. At the trial he remembered firing one. MS LOONAT Ja, he does admit, he remembers admitting that he did fire one, which was by accident. MR LAX Well he doesn't say that here. His evidence here before us has been that he doesn't remember firing at all. You can't give evidence for him. CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat it goes further, that last paragraph. MS LOONAT Ja, the last paragraph. CHAIRPERSON In the trial it is found that he endeavoured to suggest that only one shot was fired almost by accident, in which he injured himself. So it is clear from his own evidence as to the number of cartridges which were loaded and those found in the gun when it was taken from him, that he's not being entirely frank. Do you follow what I'm saying? So even if he admits to shooting one now, it is in conflict with what was found in the criminal case, although the Judge doesn't go as far as to say how many shots were fired at this stage, in this part of the Judgment, it is suggested that many more than just one accidental shot was discharged. MS LOONAT Your Honour, on the same page, line 10, is what I put to my client and that is where it says, on the 11th line, that one five round was found in the chamber, only one and we could - I couldn't find anywhere else others being shot from that particular shot gun. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but if you read the whole record, the number of cartridges found from shot gun and he says he's the only one, as far as he can remember, that was in possession of such, it is clear from the Judgment that he discharged more than the accidental one shot and that's the point the Judge is making in the Judgment. I may just add, what crossed my mind is that if they were going to use these guns as mechanisms to create fear and to facilitate the robbery, why fill the gun up with ammunition? I just make the point to you because he says that that was the intention. I'll leave it to you to argue the point. MS LOONAT My client did - I did put the question to him Your Honour and my client submitted that his co-accused were just thoroughbred criminals and they would not go into a bank with firearms that had no ammunition at all, but the instruction was not to use the firearms and in his simple mind, a man who is not committed with no criminal record, honestly believed that it would be very simple, they just go and they rob and they walk away and if that did not happen, they would still not use the firearms. CHAIRPERSON One would have to be very naive to accept that, isn't it? MS LOONAT As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON I'm not talking about your client. Carry on. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, who shot at Mr Barkor on that day? MR MAHAMBANE It was accused number 1. MS LOONAT Were you anywhere near accused number 1 at the time. MR MAHAMBANE Accused number one remained outside whilst I and accused number three went inside the bank. MS LOONAT So you are not aware when Mr Barkor was shot by accused number one, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE I heard the gun going off whilst I was inside the bank. MS LOONAT Do you know who shot at Mr Kouvaris and Mr Craven? MR MAHAMBANE No, I cannot. CHAIRPERSON You were there, isn't it, surely you can tell us who. You were present. MR MAHAMBANE The victims that I remember clearly were Mr Walters and the other person who was shot in the eye. I do not recall with regards to the others. CHAIRPERSON Who shot the one in the eye? MR MAHAMBANE It was accused number one who was outside. CHAIRPERSON The same person who shot Mr Walters? MR MAHAMBANE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON The same person who shot Mr Walters? MR MAHAMBANE No. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said accused number one. Did you not just say number one shot Mr Walters? MR MAHAMBANE No, accused number one shot the person who was outside. Mr Walters was shot by accused number 3. MR LAX Yes, that was Mr Ziane? MR MAHAMBANE Ziane, yes, he shot Mr Walters. MR LAX This Themba that you talk about, this driver. MR MAHAMBANE Oh, he ran away. MR LAX ; Yes. Where was he from? Also from KwaMashu? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, he was from KwaMashu. MR LAX Was he ever arrested? MR MAHAMBANE No, he was not arrested. MR LAX And he didn't take part in the gun battle that led to your arrest? MR MAHAMBANE No, I think he fled at the time when Mr Ivaco was shot and he was perhaps mistaken for a member of the public, so he just left. MR LAX You see the newspaper report of this incident says that four heavily armed men were involved in a gun fight, but on your version there were only three. MR MAHAMBANE They are mistaken. The driver fled from the scene. MR LAX So only three people were involved in the gun fight, according to your evidence? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, the three of us. MR LAX Now Themba's name wasn't Mavundla, was it? His surname? MR MAHAMBANE Mavundla was accused number three. MR LAX Because his nickname was Themba Mavundla. MR MAHAMBANE His other alias was also Siyane. MR LAX Please carry on. MS LOONAT Mr Mahambane, you have served seven years of your twenty years sentence and you've had plenty of time to think about what happened on that day. How do you feel about the aftermath of your criminal deeds today? MR MAHAMBANE I have never rested since the commission of that crime because I'm aware that people died and some were injured. The primary aim of lodging this amnesty application was for me to apologise to those people and explain to them that I did not really have intentions to harm them, but it was because of the situation or circumstances that we lived under at the time and things did not go according to the plan, so I take this opportunity to ask for forgiveness from them, even though I did not fire the gun directly, but I was responsible for the fact that I approached these criminals and I was the primary person in this mission. I extend that apology, particularly to Mrs Botha who lost her husband. I am not really concerned about my freedom, I have spent some time in prison and I still wouldn't mind to spend more time in prison. It's not the most important thing to be free, but what is of more importance is to ask for forgiveness for the people who were injured and those who lost their loved ones in that attack. MS LOONAT I have no further questions, Your Honour, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT MS DE KLERK Thank you Mr Chairperson. I don't know - can I please clarify something before I start with my cross-examination? Did I mention that there's a Mr Reed as well, when you asked me the names of all the victims? MR LAX No, you didn't. MS DE KLERK Please can I include Mr Reed as a victim as well please? MR LAX What are his initials, just for the record? MS DE KLERK All I have, his name is spelled Reed, but I don't have his... Apparently it's R, for Robert Reed. I did consult with Mr Reed personally and Mr Reed advised me that he didn't consider himself as a victim, however he wished to oppose the application for amnesty. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS DE KLERK Mr Mahambane, did you at any time during the criminal trial, advise anyone that your role that you played in the robbery was politically motivated? MR MAHAMBANE No. MS DE KLERK Can I ask you why? Did you not feel that it was necessary? CHAIRPERSON Ms de Klerk, my experience was that the judges of the day regarded it as aggravation. MS DE KLERK I understand that but in some of the applications that I've moved for amnesty, on occasion my applicant had actually advised them and there was reference in the Judgement to, although it was disregarded, that this wasn't done. CHAIRPERSON I accept that. Proceed. MS DE KLERK Would you like to answer the question please? MR MAHAMBANE I don't think there would be anyone who would believe that story. That would be taken as plain robbery, but I knew inside of me that the intention of this robbery was politically motivated. They would not take me seriously if I would turn this bank robbery into something that was politically motivated. They would think that I'm insane. MS DE KLERK Who is Zitho Ncumalo? MR MAHAMBANE That is Mandla. MS DE KLERK Is it correct, I understand from your evidence, okay, is it correct that accused number 3 joined you later at Mandla's home? MR MAHAMBANE No, I don't know that. Will you please repeat the question, maybe I do not understand? MS DE KLERK Is it correct that accused number three in the trial met you at Mandla's home? MR MAHAMBANE No, I know nothing about that. MS DE KLERK Will the Panel please bear with me, I'm trying to find the ... Okay, we'll come back to that when I get to it. You've said that at the meetings that were held, you discussed various ways that you'd be able to raise funds and one of the ways was where you'd steal military vehicles, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. MS DE KLERK But you made no mention of a bank robber in order to obtain these funds, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE That came later on in the 90's because it became apparent because there was no other way to raise funds. We started with our meetings from 1985, 1986, up to 1987 but later in the 90's we came up with this idea of robbing the banks. MS DE KLERK So was it only this one particular bank that you aimed to rob and no other bank? MR MAHAMBANE No, there was no other bank. MS DE KLERK So all the while, you must correct me if I'm wrong, from 1985 right up until 1990, even though you were having meetings and you were discussing means of raising funds, you didn't take any action towards - other than the two that you've mentioned to us - you didn't fulfil any other acts to raise funds? MR MAHAMBANE There was no other action that was taken except for those. MS DE KLERK You said earlier on in your evidence that you were going to see the motor vehicle, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, although that never happened, but that was our intention and that was also part of discussion in our meetings. MS DE KLERK So in your evidence, you've also told us that Mandla instructed you to get two other accomplices to help you, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. MS DE KLERK And it was put to you by the Panel that there were actually more than just three of you, there were actually four of you, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE At first there were three of us, but we had no driver and I had to organise someone to drive the car. MS DE KLERK And Themba, sorry, was that accused number one that drove the car? MR MAHAMBANE No. MS DE KLERK But who drove the vehicle? MR MAHAMBANE Themba. His name is also Themba, but he was never arrested. MS DE KLERK So you did make a statement, a plea of guilty, in respect of the charges that were brought against you, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I pleaded guilty in Court. MS DE KLERK And in your plea of guilty, you've omitted to involved Themba in the whole robbery as well, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is true. MS DE KLERK And in your plea of guilty, you've also associated yourself with accused number one and accused number three in the actual robbery, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Will you please repeat the question? MS DE KLERK In your plea that was tendered by you, you pleaded guilty to the robbery as well as the murder of Mr Walters in respect of your relationship with accused number 3 and accused number 1, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. MS DE KLERK And is it also correct that at no stage you ever mentioned that this was politically motivated or that the objective was because of the furtherance of your political organisation, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE I did not mention that to my co-accused. MS DE KLERK I know that. You told us in your evidence that you didn't mention it to your co-accused, but what I'm suggesting to you is that you also didn't tell it to the Judge as well. MR MAHAMBANE The Judge wouldn't believe me because I was charged for bank robbery and I was going to be dismissed because they couldn't reconcile the two. Any person who was there was going to dismiss that statement that the robbery was politically motivated. MS DE KLERK Who represented you at the trial? MR MAHAMBANE I cannot remember, but he was coming from the Legal Aid. I cannot remember the surname. He was coming from the Legal Aid Board. MS DE KLERK So did the ANC not pay for your legal representation at your trial? MR MAHAMBANE I cannot say so, but I do not remember any payment being made. MS DE KLERK And did you advise your legal representative about your political motives and your political objectives? MR MAHAMBANE No, I did not mention that to him. MS DE KLERK In respect of Mrs Walters, who is the wife of Derek Walters, are you aware of the fact that Mrs Walters has - well is since a widow and that she now has to go through the rest of her life without her husband and dealing with the trauma of seeing her husband being murdered? MR MAHAMBANE That is the sole reason for me to forward this amnesty application, because I have mentioned that for me it is not important to be freed from prison, but I wanted to reconcile with Mrs Walters, because I remember very well that she was at the scene when her husband died and I even have bad dreams time and again in prison, that is why I decided to use this opportunity to come and reconcile with Mrs Walters, although I'm not the person who actually pulled the trigger, but I know that this happened and it happened because of me, more especially the trauma that she suffered and she's still suffering. He was shot at while far away from the bank. The people who were much nearer were not affected, but a person who was at a distance of at least a kilometre from the bank, is the one who was affected. MS DE KLERK Surely, you were very close at the time that accused number three shot Mr Walters, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I was very close. MS DE KLERK Isn't there anything that you could have done to have prevented the loss of Mr Walters' life? MR MAHAMBANE There was nothing for me to do, because when we moved from the bank going up, it was quite a distance from where Mr Walters died, because we were being chased by the police from the bank and even Mr Walters was shot at by mistake because accused number 3 thought that as he was reaching for his waist, he thought that he was reaching for the firearm and when I tried to open the door. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that? MR MAHAMBANE After the incident, I asked him why did he shoot at the white man and then he said he couldn't see properly because we were being followed by a hail of bullets and by mistake the trigger was pulled and then he was shot at. MS DE KLERK But you're telling us something different now. Initially you told us that Mr Walters was shot because he reached in his side, in other words suggesting that he was going to reach for a firearm or something. Now you're expanding on it and you're changing your version now. Now you're saying that it was because it was done by accident. What is the true position? MR MAHAMBANE As I'm saying accused, as we were discussing after this incident, I asked him why he shot at the white man and then he told me that it was a mistake because he thought that the man was reaching for a firearm on his waist, only to find out that he was unfastening the seat belt, that was the discussion that took place after this incident. MS DE KLERK So then how does the accident part come into it then? MR MAHAMBANE I got that from him, that it was not his intention to shoot him, but as we were being chased, we were running away and he panicked and he pulled the trigger. MS DE KLERK I understand from the Judgment that Martin Craven, one of the victims, was one of the persons whom you attempted to murder, in that you had fired a shot at him. Do you know if this is correct, or - he's one of the members of the local police services and he was pursuing you, that's my instructions. He was actually pursuing you. MR MAHAMBANE I do not understand the question. MS DE KLERK Okay, in terms of the Judgement, okay, and also what Mr Craven has told me, okay, he was the person whom you were shooting at when you were trying to get away after attempting to rob the bank. MR MAHAMBANE Though I cannot remember that, this happened very quick. MS DE KLERK Do you agree, if not - if you couldn't identify Mr Craven, but would you agree with me that you did fire shots at certain protection service gentlemen who were in pursuit of you and your co-accused? MR MAHAMBANE As I've mentioned before, I cannot remember pulling a trigger, because even in Court no-one ever mentioned that he was shot at with the pump gun, because they were different from the other firearms. MS DE KLERK We've heard your evidence in respect of Mr Barkor, that you were inside the bank and accused number one was outside the bank and it was accused number one that shot Mr Barkor. MR MAHAMBANE Yes. MS DE KLERK In light of that, I'm not going to put any questions to you in respect of Mr Barkor. In respect of Mrs Druft, what was your role that you played in the actual bank robbery. When I'm speaking about the bank robbery, I'm speaking about in the bank. What did you do when you were inside of the bank? MR MAHAMBANE I am the one who was on the forefront. I'm the one who started the whole thing and instructing the people to lie down and I went straight to the counters and we collected the money with accused number 3. MS DE KLERK Were you the one that snatched Mrs Druft's chain from her neck? MR MAHAMBANE No, that was accused number 3. Even in Court he pleaded guilty to that. MS DE KLERK So you played no part in the fact that Mrs Druft's chain was snatched from her neck? MR MAHAMBANE We did not intend to take jewellery, but with me - we wanted to take the money, that is why I did not take part in that. My focus was on the money, that's all. MS DE KLERK And you were the leader of this whole group, according to your evidence, is that correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. MS DE KLERK Did you advise your co-accused that you were only going for the money, you weren't going to snatch any jewellery or anything like that? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I told them from the beginning that we're not going there to kill anyone, we are just going there to get the money. We had an agreement. MS DE KLERK And you believed them that when they agreed with you that they weren't going to kill anyone and they weren't going to steal anyone's chain from their necks, or any jewellery from anyone? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I believed them. MS DE KLERK Even though you didn't know them personally, they weren't personal friends of yours, you believed them? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I believed them. MS DE KLERK Even though you knew that they had previous convictions and that they were criminals, so you called them, you believed them, you trusted them, I think those were your words, you trusted them. MR MAHAMBANE I also wanted to do the job and if we get the money, that would be finished, so we were not looking for any other thing. MS DE KLERK In respect of Mrs Smith, did you at any time point a firearm at her whilst you were in the bank and instruct her to open the safe? MR MAHAMBANE Yes. MS DE KLERK So will I be correct in saying that you were the one that took Mrs Smith then from the controllers room through to the tellers? MR MAHAMBANE Even that Mrs Smith, I cannot remember her identity. I cannot remember which one is Mrs Smith. MS DE KLERK Who was the one that took, was it you or was it accused number 3, that took the lady with the key through to the safe? Was it you or was it accused number 3? MR MAHAMBANE I think it was accused number 3, because I was busy collecting the money from the tellers. MS DE KLERK So am I correct in saying then that your whole role in this whole bank robbery and the subsequent murders and stuff, was that you recruited accused numbers one, three and the driver who had fled, you went into the bank, all you did was collect the money, accused number three, he snatched Mrs Druft's chain off her neck, he pushed Mrs Smith at gun point with the keys to the safe, all, your whole role was just merely to get the money, that was all. Am I correct? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is true. MS DE KLERK Thank you. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DE KLERK MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Mahambane, with regard to the shooting of Mr Barkor, do you think it was necessary for him to be shot at? MR MAHAMBANE No, it was not necessary at all, but we were inside the bank. The person who shot at Mr Barkor was outside the bank at the door. We heard the gun shot as we were still busy inside the bank. MS THABETHE Having your answer in mind, would you say then that the act of shooting Mr Barkor had anything to do with the political objective of your organisation, ANC? MR MAHAMBANE No, it's got nothing to do with that. MS THABETHE Now coming to the shooting at the policemen, that is Mr Reed and Mr Craven, the policemen who were chasing you, do you think that was necessary? MR MAHAMBANE No, it was not necessary. MS THABETHE And do you think this action would have in any furthered the objectives of the ANC? MR MAHAMBANE No, not at all. MS THABETHE Now coming to the murder of Mr Walters, the guy who was in the vehicle, why didn't you try and overpower him? There were two of you, he was the only one in the car. Why didn't you try and then chuck him out of the car and then take the car and run instead of shooting at him? MR MAHAMBANE As I have already mentioned that I came through the passenger door and accused number 3 came to the driver's door and on the passenger side the door was locked and accused number three proceeded for the driver's door and opened the door and we couldn't see properly, it was becoming dark at that time and there was noise and we were being chased with a hail of bullets and there was confusion, we couldn't think properly because we were not yet used to that situation and we also panicked. MS THABETHE Do you agree with what he did? Do you agree with his decision to shoot Mr Walters? MR MAHAMBANE No, I totally disagree that is why I even asked the question as to why did he shoot at him and then he explained to me that he couldn't see properly, it was a mistake. MS THABETHE And would I be correct to say it cannot be even justified politically? MR MAHAMBANE In your opinion, bank robbery is just plain bank robbery. Even in Court I didn't mention any political motivation, but my intention was to come here and apologise to the people who were traumatised more especially Mrs Walters. It is up to you to associate it with political objective, but to me, this is an opportunity for me to come here and apologise to the people who were wronged. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS LOONAT IN RE-EXAMINATION Your Honour, I just want to clarify one point on the question of Mr Craven. It is my understanding, on page 63, line 7, that there was in fact some confusion and line, the first paragraph on page 63, I quote, it says that "Accused number three fired directly at him when he was in his vehicle" and it goes on to say that: "Mrs Johns and Holman both agree that accused number 3 did the firing" and not my client. My client was unaware of the firing from the outside. I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT MR LAX Mr Mahambane, there's just one issue that I'm a bit puzzled about and maybe if you'll clear it up for me. Zitho Ncumalo, you said that that was the name of Mandla, is that right? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX That's Mandla who came from G Section to L Section to train you and he was your Commander, is that the same Mandla? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Now in the Judgment at page 42 of the bundle, there's reference made to Zitho Ncumalo being present on the scene. MR MAHAMBANE Please repeat the question Sir. MR LAX In the bundle page 42 of the papers and your lawyer's showing you the section, it says "When they were dealing with the weapons by themselves and by Zitho Ncumalo..." and then it carries on and then it says: "Accused number three said the weapon he saw protruding from Zitho's belt was an automatic pistol." Now you've told us nothing about Mandla being present on the scene, yet it's clear from here that he was present. Why haven't you told us about this? MR MAHAMBANE Mandla was not present. MR LAX Well who is this Zitho Ncumalo they're talking about who was present, who had a gun protruding out of his belt? MR MAHAMBANE Zitho Ncumalo is Mandla, but I think this is a mistake, because Mandla was not there. MR LAX Well was Mandla maybe not the driver who ran away and was never arrested and that's why you're not telling us about it? MR MAHAMBANE No, that is not true. MR LAX why was his name mentioned at the trial at all? MR MAHAMBANE You were there, I wasn't there. I'm asking you, how did his name come up at the trial as Zitho Ncumalo? In what context was the name mentioned at the trial? MR MAHAMBANE We were asked where we got the firearms from. We mentioned his name. That's how he was implicated. CHAIRPERSON You pleaded guilty in this case, isn't it? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You advocate, did your advocate hand in a written summary of what you admitted that you had to sign? MR MAHAMBANE I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't testify at the trial, did you? Did you testify at the trial when you pleaded guilty? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, I pleaded guilty in court. CHAIRPERSON Ja and you didn't take the oath and tell the Judge what happened, did you? It was not necessary, you pleaded guilty, or did you? I don't know, I'm asking. MR MAHAMBANE I think I remember testifying. CHAIRPERSON Well did you testify on the merits or on sentence? MR MAHAMBANE I cannot remember. MR LAX Just one last thing and that is that - did only two of you enter the bank? MR MAHAMBANE Yes, that is correct, the third person remained at the door. MR LAX Outside or inside? MR MAHAMBANE At the door. He was just there at the door. MR LAX You see, if you read this judgment it's clear from this Judgment that Mr Kouvaris and two of the ladies who were inside the bank who testified, speak about three people coming inside the bank. If you like, I'll show you the portions. CHAIRPERSON Can you explain that, because it does appear in the Judgment. MR LAX Page 42 - sorry, just bear with me one second, I'll give you the specific reference. CHAIRPERSON It doesn't matter. I'm telling you it's in the record, in the Judgment that three people entered the bank. What have you got to say about it? Have you got an answer? In the record it states that three people entered the bank. What have you got to say about it? MR LAX Page 38, lines 27 onwards. MR MAHAMBANE I cannot dispute that because as we got into the bank, the two of us, the one who remained at the door was regarded as inside, though he remained there at the door. That is why the person is saying three people entered the bank. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, did you not even foresee that there may be shots fired at the bank when you people took firearms? MR MAHAMBANE That was possible, because as we were trying to get out of the bank, we were shot at. CHAIRPERSON When you went there, did you foresee that it is possible that you people may have to use the firearms and somebody may be killed? You must have foreseen it, that's why you took the guns. Not so? MR MAHAMBANE Do you mean the shooting would take place inside the bank? CHAIRPERSON Ja. MR MAHAMBANE It wouldn't be possible to fire inside the bank. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. You're excused WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat are there any other witnesses? MS LOONAT No, Your Honour, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms de Klerk, have you got any witnesses? MS DE KLERK No thank you Mr Chair. Mrs Barkor has asked if she could be excused. She's not feeling too well with what she's heard. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe have you got any witnesses? MS THABETHE No witnesses, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat have you got any submissions to make? MS LOONAT Just my final address, Your Honour. CHAIRPERSON Ja. MS LOONAT Okay. MS LOONAT IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee, my Learned Colleagues, Ladies and Gentlemen, my client is today seeking amnesty for this horrendous crime. In his evidence he states that he was 19 years old when he committed the first offence which was stealing a purse to the value of R4 for which he received four strokes. He has since had a clean record. ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat, we're not really interested in his personal factors and his previous convictions. Tell us how does he comply with the requirements of the Act. Firstly, how do you say that what he did was based on a political decision. MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, okay. Can I just go on to how he has made full disclosure etc throughout the evidence? okay He admits that the horrendous crime that he embarked upon in the company of two others, namely the pre-planned armed robbery at the Umhlanga Centre, on 26th of October 1991, ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was it with two or three others, that's the first. MS LOONAT When I was liaising with him, he mentioned the two co-accused, he'd not mentioned the driver which came about during proceedings. It has left him full of remorse. More so as one person lost his life that day and another lost the sight in his one eye. My client has maintained throughout this hearing that it was a politically motivated attack. Having been subjected to an incessant political warfare in the 80s where he lived and having witnessed the death of friends and the ambushing of the school children and even the death of a lady he most respected, Mrs Ntenye, an ANC stalwart, he knew he had to retaliate to protect his home, his people, their possessions. After all, he was a fully trained cadre of the ANC Military Wing. CHAIRPERSON Fully trained? MS LOONAT So he said in his application. Lack of finance to procure the necessary weaponry was the only obstacle to obtaining peace, or so Mandla propagated at their meetings. Mandla, a leader in the ANC, who trained my client and supplied the shot gun and other weapons used by all the accused on that fateful day. He planned the robbery and instructed that the spoils be handed to him to further the cause. The instructions were not to use the firearms. Human nature being what it is, things went awry and panic rained that day. My client admits to removing cash from the tills. He was in charge of the cash at all times. He did not assault anybody, including the lady who lost her gold chain. It was not him, according to his evidence. My client admits that the cash, all of it, was in a maroon bag which was in his possession at all times. He knew that he had to hand over same to Mandla that day. This was how the instructions, the political objective was planned and he knew that he would convince, or he thought he would convince his co-accused, in Mandla's presence, that the cash would be used to promote a peaceful climate to live in, thereby handing it all over to Mandla, the leader. My client admits that Saturday was a busy day. Lots more cash would be available and as no-one was to be injured, it made no difference that it was a busy, busy day. Therefore it did not occur to him that more people's lives would be at risk, as a result of their actions. My client did not fire at or injure anyone that day and he stands by that. He's trying to make full disclosure as far as he can remember. He still maintains that one shot went off from his gun whilst running away and that shot almost injured him. He admits that whilst he was trying to enter late Mr Walters' motor vehicle via the passenger side, it was his co-accused number three, who did in fact shoot at Mr Walters in panic because he thought, that is number 3 thought the gentleman was reaching for a gun when in actual felt he was trying to loosen his safety belt. He knows now that he was in fact trying to do his seatbelt. My client is deeply saddened by this tragic death, saddened by the whole event. Money, not murder and mayhem was uppermost in his mind when he set out on this actions. Money, not for personal gain, as he's been maintaining, but for the cause, peace and protection against attacks, political attacks in his section and surrounding. The police did nothing to assist. To quote the Honourable Judge Wilson on page 62, line 20: "The killings were not committed during the course of the planned robbery, it was during the course of the get away, after arrangements had collapsed" There was no mens rea until after the get away car wasn't there and foiled their plans, hence the death penalty was not imposed. In fact my client was only trying to enter Mr Walters' motor vehicle to use as a get away, when the co-accused pulled the trigger. Indeed Mr Mahambane admits to hand picking his co-accused, without Mandla's instructions to pick these particular men, but he did not inform them deliberately that the proceeds had to be handed to Mandla for the course. Mandla, the mastermind, who was my client's mentor, who trained him in firearm use and who had the wherewithal to procure more if necessary, all not for personal gain but for the cause. My client except for that one shot that went off accidentally, injured no-one, not even when he fled in panic and things went awry. Today he advises that he wish to express personally to the victims families his deep remorse, to Mrs Walters for the loss of her husband, whom his co-accused shot in panic and to the other victims that day. At that time he was full of hate because of the political situation which existed in his area for several years in KwaMashu especially. Today he's full of contrition. The attack that day on the NBS was politically motivated in his mind, to obtain cash for firearms and ammunition for the cause, a far cry from that R4 that he stole. He has made full disclosure today as far as he can remember. He acted on an instruction from a leader who propagated ANC slogans, policies, at their clandestine meetings in the late 80's and early 90's. I humbly submit that the honourable members of the Committee grant my client amnesty in terms of Section 20(1)(2)(a), (d), (f), (g) and (3) (a) to (f). Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Ms de Klerk, we don't need to hear you. We don't need to hear you also. We'll take our time deliberating this matter and we'll issue a decision in due course. MS THABETHE Sorry, Mr Chair, can I just find out something. With regard to Mr Grubb, ... MR LAX Yes, he's mentioned in the Judgment as a protection services person who was shot at with Mr Craven. If you'd like, I'll give you the page reference. MS THABETHE Yes, in the Judgment, the person who was charged, who is, I think its accused number - page 57, says he was not found guilty and there was no evidence led of any attempt to murder or ...(indistinct), so I wanted to know whether he is part of the victims? MR LAX Just because there was no evidence led about it in the trial, doesn't mean that he wasn't there. We know he was there, but it's ... MS THABETHE He was there in his capacity as a police officer, but what I'm questioning is, was he - would we say he's one of the victims in the fact that there was no evidence led as to whether he was shot at or not, so can we really conclude that he was a victim? MR LAX It becomes academic in any event. CHAIRPERSON No, but whether the criminal court found that or not, we've got to go on what was led here and if it's proved to us that he was there and shot at, then he would, in a normal situation, be a victim by definition. Okay. We'll adjourn till 9.30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS