amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-29 DURBAN 2 DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI AM1106/96 MURDER OF ZWELIBANZI NTUNI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54429&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200829db.htm CHAIRPERSON ... the legal representatives to identify themselves on record for the purposes of that record. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Ms Mohamed from the firm Dehal Incorporated, on record for the applicant Mr Nyathikazi. MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Chairman. I represent the victims of the Nyathikazi application, namely the Ntuni family and my name is S Panday. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday while you represent the victims, how many are there that you represent? MR PANDAY Mr Chairman it's the Ntuni family, that's the mother and the brother who are present. I'm given to understand that at the time of the incident the deceased was not married. MR LAX Did he have any children? CHAIRPERSON Ja, he may still have children. MR PANDAY No, from what I understand there are no children. CHAIRPERSON For what it's worth, I think only the mother then becomes the victim in terms of the definition of the Act, while his brother may very well be an interested party. MR PANDAY Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are they opposing this application? MR PANDAY Yes, Mr Chairman, they are opposing. CHAIRPERSON On what basis? MR PANDAY On the basis that they believe that the act was not politically motivated and the basis for the non political motivation, that the family recognises the applicant to have more criminal agendas behind the incident as opposed to political agenda. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nyathikazi, what language would you prefer to use? MR NYATHIKAZI Zulu. DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, before you have a bundle of documents. I'm going to refer you to that bundle of documents, okay. Now isn't it correct that a copy of this bundle was handed to you at prison last week? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Have you read the bundle and familiarised yourself with the contents? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Thank you. Now I'm going to take you to the bundle itself. Isn't it correct that you've made two applications for amnesty, you filled in two forms for application for amnesty? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Okay. Now look at pages 1 to 3 of the bundle. Is it correct that this is the first application that you filled in and it's dated the 22nd of ...(intervention) MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED It was signed on the 3rd of May? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Look at the signature on page 3, is that your signature? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, it is. MS MOHAMED Okay. I'm going to refer you to the next application from pages 4 to 6 and is that your signature on page 6? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Thank you. Now on pages 14 to 18 of this bundle, there's a hand-written affidavit. It was drawn on the instructions that you gave to Ms Mkhize when she called at ...(indistinct) prison, isn't that correct? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Now Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that you are applying for amnesty for the murder of Zwelibanzi Ntuni which occurred on the 14th of April 1994? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED Isn't it also correct that you were convicted for this offence? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED What - sorry, what sentence did you receive? MR NYATHIKAZI I was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment. CHAIRPERSON What was the date of the murder? MS MOHAMED 14th of April 1994. Now Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that in the early 1980's you were a member of the ANC? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MS MOHAMED What was your role within the ANC? MR NYATHIKAZI I was a member of the Street Committee. MS MOHAMED Did you occupy this position throughout your involvement with the ANC, or did your membership at any stage change? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, I was a member of the Street Committee. MS MOHAMED Did your membership of the ANC change at any stage? MR LAX Sorry, what do you mean, did his membership change? MS MOHAMED Sorry Mr Lax, I'm trying to ascertain whether he remained a member of the Street Committee throughout his membership of the ANC. MR LAX When did you join the ANC? MR NYATHIKAZI During the 80's. MR LAX And you remained a member until this incident? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MR LAX When did you join the Street Committee? MR NYATHIKAZI In 1984. MR LAX 1984? MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MR LAX And you were part of that structure until this incident? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. I was also involved in other activities for example marshalling during ANC activities. MS MOHAMED Mr Nyathikazi, you say in your affidavit on page 11 that you joined MK. MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. MS MOHAMED When did you join MK? MR NYATHIKAZI In 1989. MS MOHAMED Where did you receive your training? MR NYATHIKAZI In Tanzania. MS MOHAMED And when did you return to South Africa? MR NYATHIKAZI In April 1991. MS MOHAMED Now Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you to the day in question of this incident, that is the 14th of April 1994. Now on the day in question, were you in the vicinity of Road 8 in Chesterville? MR NYATHIKAZI I was at Road 8. MS MOHAMED Who was with you? MR NYATHIKAZI I was with Jabulani Mzweli. MS MOHAMED What were you doing there? MR NYATHIKAZI We were distributing pamphlets about the upcoming elections. MS MOHAMED Okay and then what happened? MR NYATHIKAZI We were on a motor bike in Road 8 when two men approached. One was Zwelibanzi Ntuni and the other was Wiseman. They came closer to us and asked are we continuing with distributing these pamphlets. They then started shooting at us at which time we fled. MR LAX Sorry. Was the Wiseman, Wiseman Ntuni? What's his surname? MR NYATHIKAZI I forget his surname. MS MOHAMED And then what happened? MR NYATHIKAZI Jabulani was hit on the leg. but we managed to flee although we parted ways as we were running away. MS MOHAMED Okay now isn't it correct that at some stage you later returned to the scene of this shooting? MR NYATHIKAZI That is correct. MS MOHAMED Okay. How did you proceed to the scene, in other words? MR NYATHIKAZI I then went back to the scene. On my way I met Sitembiso Msimanga and Robert Ngobane walking down the road. They accompanied me are inquired what had been happening because they had heard gun shots. I told them what had happened. CHAIRPERSON Who were the two people, Robert Ngobane and who else? MR NYATHIKAZI Sitembiso Msimanga. CHAIRPERSON Tembo? MR NYATHIKAZI Sitembiso. MS MOHAMED Okay and then what happened? MR NYATHIKAZI We later met Mondo Mkhize and they all accompanied me to go look for the motor bike and the pamphlets. When we arrived at the scene, we could not find that motor bike, so we turned back along Road 13. MS MOHAMED Okay. Then what happened? MR NYATHIKAZI As we were walking along the road we met Mondo Mkhize's girlfriend. MS MOHAMED What's her name? MR NYATHIKAZI I have forgotten her name. MS MOHAMED Okay, then what happened when you met her? MR NYATHIKAZI Mondo and his girlfriend stopped and chatted for some time. As they were parting, the girlfriend indicated using her eyes, pointing towards the side. When I followed her eyes, I noticed some people standing around there. The people were standing next to a tree in a certain house. Mondo then went towards that house and went inside the premises. MS MOHAMED And then what happened? CHAIRPERSON Tell me, why did you go back to Road 8? MR NYATHIKAZI I went to look for the pamphlets that were left there, as well as the motor bike. CHAIRPERSON Now if you had found it what would you have done with it? MS MOHAMED I would have taken them back to my home. CHAIRPERSON Which is where, of which was where? MR NYATHIKAZI It was in Road 15. CHAIRPERSON Now Road 8 and Road 15, are they parallel to each other, or do they run off each other, or what? How do you - okay, carry on, answer. MR NYATHIKAZI They are a distance away from one another. CHAIRPERSON Parallel with each other, or do they run at right angles or any angle to each other? MR NYATHIKAZI They are not parallel, they are far from each other and they are not in a straight line. CHAIRPERSON What is the shortest distance one has to use to get from Road 8 to Road 15? MR NYATHIKAZI You go along Road 13 and then that takes you to Road 14 and then you would get to Road 15. CHAIRPERSON Now is Road 13 at right angles to Road 8, or is there another way you could use ... MR NYATHIKAZI They are at right angles. CHAIRPERSON Is there another route you could use to get to Road 15 from Road 8? MR NYATHIKAZI You could also go along Road 1, but that will take you longer. CHAIRPERSON Now these people who had objections to your distributing pamphlets and so forth, were they known to you? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, I knew Zwelibanzi well, but the other one was just a resident who was not close to me. CHAIRPERSON Now were they known political opponents to... MR NYATHIKAZI One that I was aware of as being a political opponent was Zweli who to me was similar to an askari. CHAIRPERSON Now did you know where he was staying? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, he resided at Road 18. CHAIRPERSON I see. And in Road 13 were there any known political opponents there? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, prior to this incident, there were some people who resided at Road 13 who had been our political opponents, but that was no longer the case. The war was over. CHAIRPERSON Now, tell me, when you went back to Road 8, you say that you went there to recover the pamphlets and the motor cycle. MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you armed? MR NYATHIKAZI No I was not armed. CHAIRPERSON Did you have intention of fighting with anybody at that time? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not have any intention at that time. CHAIRPERSON Now, when you went up Road 13, did you have any intention of fighting with anybody? MR NYATHIKAZI No, there was no intention. CHAIRPERSON Now I see in your affidavit, you say that you did not - well, Ms Mohamed, this affidavit that I have is not signed. MS MOHAMED Sorry, Mr Chairman, the statement. CHAIRPERSON Well whatever, it's not signed. Have you got one that's signed? MS MOHAMED I'm sorry ...(indistinct), but the contents have been read to him and he understood and confirmed that. CHAIRPERSON Well, can I rely on the contents in order to ask him certain questions? MS MOHAMED Yes, Judge. CHAIRPERSON I see in this statement that you intend signing, you say you associated yourself with the ultimate action of killing the deceased on the basis that it was political. Now I need you to deal with the following issue. If you had no intention while being in Road 13 of even fighting with anybody, how could you associate yourself with the killing, on whatever basis? MR NYATHIKAZI At the time that he was killed, I was also present. CHAIRPERSON But you had no intention to kill him, isn't it? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not. CHAIRPERSON You didn't even have any intention of fighting with him? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I had no intention of fighting with him. CHAIRPERSON And actually you don't know why he was killed? MR NYATHIKAZI I learned about it later during that day. CHAIRPERSON Ja, but at the time when he was killed, you didn't know why he was killed? MR NYATHIKAZI At that time I did not know the reason. CHAIRPERSON And you did not contribute to his death, is that not so, in any way? MR NYATHIKAZI I did not contribute anything. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Mohamed. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you back to a point earlier in your evidence when you said that, this is the point at which Mondo's girlfriend made some eye signs and you followed her gaze to a point where you noticed people standing next to a tree and there was a certain house alongside this and Mondo then went inside that house. MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, that's what happened. MS MOHAMED Okay, now where were you when this was happening? MR NYATHIKAZI I was standing on the road with Robert Sitembiso. MS MOHAMED Do you know why Mondo went into that house? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, Mondo went in there to shoot at the deceased. MS MOHAMED Do you know whose house that was? MR NYATHIKAZI I only knew the son by the name of Hewa who resided at that home, who was a taxi driver. MS MOHAMED Okay now when Mondo went into that house, what did you do? MR NYATHIKAZI I remained standing on the road. When the gun shots went off, we all scattered in different directions. MS MOHAMED Could you see who was firing the gun shots? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. MS MOHAMED And who was that? MR NYATHIKAZI It was Mondo Mkhize. MS MOHAMED Now when you said that you heard the gunshots going off, you all scattered. Where did you go to? MR NYATHIKAZI I ran towards Road 14. MR LAX Sorry, can I just interpose. Why did you run away? MR NYATHIKAZI I could not tell who was shooting who because I began to hear gun shots from the direction of the tree. MR LAX But you've just said that you saw Mondo shooting. MR NYATHIKAZI That's correct. MR LAX So who else was shooting? MR NYATHIKAZI I did not see anybody else shooting. MR LAX So again, why did you run away? MR NYATHIKAZI I was trying to save myself, because the bullets were flying all over. MR LAX Was that because Mondo was shooting randomly? MR NYATHIKAZI He was shooting towards the deceased. MR LAX Well then how could bullets be flying all over, if he was shooting at the deceased and not in your direction? MR NYATHIKAZI There were shots that were coming from the direction of the tree and I was not sure if the people at that house were also returning fire, but I did not see anyone. MR LAX You didn't see anyone shooting at you. MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not see anyone shooting at us. MR LAX Did you see any flashes of gunfire coming from that house? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not see any gunfire because there was a fence. MR LAX Please continue. MS MOHAMED Thank you. MR NYATHIKAZI I fled and later met Robert Sitembiso and Mondo Mkhize. I inquired if no one amongst them was injured and they confirmed that no one had been injured. CHAIRPERSON What is Robert's surname? MR NYATHIKAZI Ngobane. MS MOHAMED What else did they tell you? MR NYATHIKAZI It's only Mondo who told me that he has shot at the deceased and he was not sure whether he had died. MS MOHAMED So when did you hear that the deceased had died? MR NYATHIKAZI I heard when I was informed that police had been at my home. MS MOHAMED Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you to an affidavit in this bundle ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on there, when you were in Road 13 and Mkhize's girlfriend indicated the presence of these people, as I understand you, you say this group of people were standing near a tree. MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And at some stage during your testimony, you said you could not see who was actually shooting, because they were at this tree, did I understand you correctly? MR NYATHIKAZI Will you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON For some reason you could not see who was shooting there in Road 13, correct? MR NYATHIKAZI I said Mondo was shooting but I did not see anybody from amongst those people who was shooting. CHAIRPERSON Well, did you know who these people were? MR NYATHIKAZI I just knew the girls from the township as well as the deceased and Wiseman. CHAIRPERSON Could you identify them when you were there standing in Road 13 when Mkhize's girlfriend indicated or pointed to this group of people? MR NYATHIKAZI I could clearly identify the men from the clothes that they were wearing on the previous occasion when they shot at us. CHAIRPERSON So you knew at that stage that they were possibly armed, correct? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you run away at that stage already, because last time you had met them, they were shooting at you? MR NYATHIKAZI As I have mentioned before, there was a tree that blocked my view and they were also in the company of women, so I did not know whether they were armed. MR LAX But these were the people who had given you trouble before. CHAIRPERSON Shortly before. MR LAX According to you, at any rate. MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. CHAIRPERSON So why didn't you run away from your attackers, people who were not your friends, they were trying to kill you. MR NYATHIKAZI As I have already mentioned there were women, but I was worried because I realised that Zwelibanzi was amongst them. This also happened very quickly, because when Mondo went inside the house, went inside the yard, he just started shooting and that was when I ran away. MR LAX How far were you standing from this house where the tree was in the garden? MR NYATHIKAZI I was on the road, perhaps on that opposite wall to where I'm sitting. MR LAX About four, five metres, just the width of an ordinary road? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, it was a tarred road. CHAIRPERSON Did you know Mkhize was going to go there and shoot the deceased? MR NYATHIKAZI I did not know that he was going to go in there. MR LAX Did you not know that that was the deceased's girlfriend's house? MR NYATHIKAZI I did not know that. MR LAX But you knew the deceased. MR NYATHIKAZI yes, I knew him. MR LAX Well, didn't you know who his girlfriend was, if you knew him? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not know his girlfriend, I only learned about it at the trial. MS MOHAMED Mr Nyathikazi, I'm going to take you now to the bundle of documents. Isn't it correct that you are aware that Mondo Mkhize has put up an affidavit which is included in this bundle? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, I'm aware of it. MS MOHAMED Now in that affidavit on page 20 in paragraph 11 Mr Mkhize sets out the reason for killing the deceased. Now do you care to comment on that paragraph? MR NYATHIKAZI I would say that I was not aware that Mondo was going to do anything to the deceased, because as we had been together, he had not shown any signs of wanting to harm anyone. MR LAX Yes, you were asked to comment on the reason he gives here and the reason he gives here is that there was a grudge between them. He says he killed him out of a grudge, as mentioned earlier on, which I do not consider as political from my point of view. That's what you were asked to comment on. MR NYATHIKAZI As I've already mentioned, I met Mondo on the way. He did mention afterwards that he had killed the deceased because of a certain grudge, because the deceased had killed his friend. I think what he wrote here was advancing his reasons that he had a grudge against the deceased and for him it was not politically motivated. MS MOHAMED Isn't it correct that you associated yourself with the death of the deceased in this matter? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, I did associate myself with his death because when he was killed, I was also present, that is why I have applied for amnesty, for the reason that I was present when Mondo shot Zwelibanzi. CHAIRPERSON I've never known a "deader" horse to rise. MS MOHAMED Sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Nyathikazi, there's also an affidavit in this bundle which has been put up by Wiseman Ntuni. MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. MS MOHAMED Now in his affidavit he says that Zwelibanzi was still a member of MK as at the date of his death. MR NYATHIKAZI I believe he has written so because the deceased was his brother and also for the reason that he had been to exile. MR LAX Could I ask a question? If you had a problem with this deceased, why didn't you just call him before the Comrades Committee of MK as existed in most places, and arrange for him to be disciplined according to your code? If he was a comrade who was behaving badly, why didn't you just call him before the Street Committee or before the MK Committee? MR NYATHIKAZI His behaviour indicated that he was no longer part of MK. He behaved like an askari, so it was not easy to call him to a meeting where there would be people who would not necessarily be his comrades. MR LAX Well, did you at least report him to your committee? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes. MR LAX And what did you do ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) Please continue. MR NYATHIKAZI Ms Mohamed we're waiting for you. MS MOHAMED Oh I'm sorry Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, have you any questions? MR PANDAY In the light of the evidence produced, not too many questions at all. CHAIRPERSON I'm surprised that you have one. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Mr Nyathikazi, isn't it correct that when the incident at Road 8 had completed, or when you were attacked in Road 8, that incident was completed and you had no intention of seeking any form of retribution? MR NYATHIKAZI I did not have any intention of retribution. MR PANDAY And isn't it also correct that you came across Mondo Mkhize by chance on the day in question? MR NYATHIKAZI Yes, it was not pre-planned. MR PANDAY And you would have no idea of what sort of plan Mondo Mkhize had against Zweli Ntuni? MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not. MR PANDAY So finally isn't it correct that based on your evidence there is no way that you can be associated with the killing of Zweli Ntuni? MR NYATHIKAZI What associates me with his death is the fact that I was present when he was shot. MR PANDAY Isn't it also correct then that the killing of Zweli Ntuni by Mondo Mkhize was not political? MR NYATHIKAZI As far as Mondo is concerned, it was not politically motivated, but that does not apply to me. MR PANDAY Why do you say it does not apply to you? You had no idea that Zweli was going to be killed on that day. MR NYATHIKAZI I did not know. MR PANDAY So if you did not know Zweli was going to be killed on that day, you cannot know about his intentions. MR NYATHIKAZI I did not know what he had intended. MR PANDAY Now the family of Zwe Ntuni maintains that Zwe was an ANC member and supporter right up until the day he was murdered. Why do you suggest differently? MR NYATHIKAZI I believe that Zwelibanzi in whatever he did, he may not have told them what his activities were at the time. I may understand that they are heartbroken because they lost their son. MR PANDAY When did you learn that he is no longer an ANC member? In what year did you learn this? MR NYATHIKAZI It was after a while. MR PANDAY In what year? Can you recall the year that you learned that he was no longer ANC according to you? MR NYATHIKAZI In 1993. MR PANDAY And did you report this to anybody? JUDGE POTGIETER It's hearsay, why must we - what is the value of this, he heard somebody say something? MR PANDAY I accept, Mr Chairman. JUDGE POTGIETER How does it help us? MR PANDAY I accept the point Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Nyathikazi, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY MS THABETHE Just a few questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Nyathikazi, according to a statement written by Lindiwe, the girlfriend to the deceased on page 29, she says she saw you, amongst others, and she took note of you because she knew you to be their enemies - to be enemies with and you were harassing the deceased, Nkosinati Ntuni. Do you want to respond to that? MR NYATHIKAZI As a girlfriend, she had lost her loved one so she could very well say anything. MS THABETHE And you were not enemies? MR NYATHIKAZI No, we were not enemies. MS THABETHE ...(indistinct) MR NYATHIKAZI No, I did not. MS THABETHE Also I just want to clarify one more factor. According to Noma Langa in her statement on page 33 of the bundle and Mantombi Ngobane on page 36, they both say that they saw you together with a group, you were all carrying guns, hand guns, yet in your evidence you've stated that you did not carry a gun. What ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) MR NYATHIKAZI I was not carrying a firearm. She may have seen us on the street, but it is not true that I was carrying a firearm. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE MS MOHAMED I have no questions Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Ms Mohamed, are there any other witnesses you're going to call? MS MOHAMED No, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses to call. MR PANDAY Mr Chairman, it's just the brother of the victim. I'll just be very brief with him and that's merely to confirm his continued existence with the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Whatever, I mean you can call him. MR PANDAY Wiseman Ntuni. WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY Mr Wiseman Ntuni, what is your relationship to the deceased Zwe Ntuni? MR NTUNI He was my brother. MR PANDAY Is it correct that you had deposed to an affidavit for the purposes of the application of Dannyboy Nyathikazi, opposing the application? MR NTUNI That's correct. MR PANDAY I'm just showing you pages 26, from page 26 to 27, is that the affidavit that you've deposed to? MR NTUNI Yes, it is. MR PANDAY And do you confirm the contents of that to be true and correct? MR NTUNI Yes, I do. MR PANDAY Now in the evidence given by the applicant, he alleges that your brother Zwe Ntuni had defected from the ANC. Can you comment on that evidence? MR NYATHIKAZI He had not defected, he was still a member of the ANC. MR PANDAY And more particularly on the day that he was murdered, was he still a member of the ANC? MR NTUNI Yes, he was. MR PANDAY Now in your affidavit in paragraph 4 you mention of there being gangs, Mondo and his gang, now do you know what effect this gang had on your brother, or were there any problems between this gang and your brother? MR NTUNI They were a group of gangsters who used to shoot at one another in the township. MR PANDAY When you say: "They were a group of gangsters), who are you referring to? MR NTUNI I would say all of them belonged to different gangs, because Dannyboy belonged to one group and my brother to another, but this had nothing to do with the ANC. CHAIRPERSON What kind of gangs were they, tsotsies? MR NTUNI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Interfered with the community and to fight against each other? MR NTUNI They were fighting amongst one another. CHAIRPERSON Nothing to do with politics? MR NTUNI No, it had nothing to do with politics. MR PANDAY So at the time your brother, although he was member of the ANC, he was very much involved in a gang, is that correct? MR NTUNI Yes, he was a member of a gang, although he also belonged to the ANC. MR PANDAY And the gang that he belonged to was in conflict with other gangs in the area? MR NTUNI No, they were not in conflict. MR PANDAY Do you know of any problem that existed between Mondo's gang and his gang? MR NTUNI I do not know what was the problem between them. MR PANDAY Now is it correct that you are opposing the application being brought by Dannyboy Nyathikazi? MR NTUNI Yes, I am opposing the application. MR PANDAY Can you state the reason for you opposing the application? MR NTUNI Firstly, I would say Mr Nyathikazi has told lies before the Committee. MR PANDAY What sort of lies has he told? MR NTUNI That my brother had defected, had become an askari. What is an askari? MR PANDAY What other lies has he spoken? MR NTUNI This re-opens old wounds. MR PANDAY We need you to help us, Wiseman. Can you think of any other lies that's he's given in his evidence? MR NTUNI The lie that my brother was an askari. Also that he was standing on Road 13. How could he have seen him? It is also a lie that my brother was preventing people from canvassing for the elections. CHAIRPERSON How do you know that that didn't happen? MR NTUNI How could he do that? Because he was young, I would have known about it. MR PANDAY Now tell me, the area that your brother lived in and the area that the applicant says they were canvassing, what political party dominated the areas? MR NTUNI It was the ANC. MR PANDAY Now do you believe that the murder of your brother was politically motivated? MR NTUNI No. MR PANDAY Thank you Mr Ntuni, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Ntuni. Mr Ntuni it has been your evidence that the applicant was part of a criminal gang. Now it's Mr Nyathikazi's instructions to me that he was never part of any criminal gang, can you comment on that? MR NTUNI He is lying. MS MOHAMED Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE No questions Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Have you got any re-examination Mr ... MR PANDAY No, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Ntuni. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Have you got any more witnesses Mr ... MR PANDAY Yes, Mr Chairman, we call Mondo Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Who is that? MR PANDAY That is the first accused in the matter, Mr Chairman. But before we call him, Mr Chairman, could we have a short recess just to confirm with him certain issues? CHAIRPERSON What is the point of calling him? MR PANDAY Well Mr Chairman, he was the accused ... MR LAX We know who he was. You can rest assured we know who he was. The Chairperson's question stands. MR PANDAY He'll merely verify the sequence of events that took place on the day in question. CHAIRPERSON Well has the been put in dispute? MR PANDAY It might not be so, it serves no purpose to call him as such. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any other witnesses? MR PANDAY No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, have you got any witnesses? MS THABETHE None at all, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Is that the end of the evidence? Looks like it. Ms Mohamed, have you got any submissions to make? MS MOHAMED IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairman, apart from saying the evidence has been led and the applicant still seeks amnesty, I can't take it any further. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Panday, we don't need to hear you, nor do we need to hear you. MR PANDAY No, I will keep quiet Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We'll reserve Judgment in this matter and we'll hand a decision down in due course. MS MOHAMED As the Committee pleases.