amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-29 PRETORIA 10 EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK AM0066/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54433&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200829pt.htm EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is properly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. You may be seated, Mr de Kock. Mr Hattingh? EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, you are also an applicant in this matter and your application appears from page 1 of the bundle, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Just before I lead you concerning this incident itself, can you just look at this application and when you deal with the incident itself you deal with it on page 7. You deal with this whole incident on one page, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Am I also correct that it was a very cryptical and short version of what your involvement was in this matter? MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH At other matters you've testified about this, that you have a very large application for amnesty where you deal with literally hundreds of incidents, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And when you submitted your application you were in prison. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And was Mr Hugo there as your legal representative? Did he have free access to you at all hours of the day? MR DE KOCK No, Mr Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And in that time while you were busy submitting your, or compiling your application, were you involved in other investigations? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH What other parties did you assist? MR DE KOCK It was the Attorney-General, it was also a section of National Intelligence Service. MR HATTINGH Did these people also make use of your time? MR DE KOCK Yes, a lot. MR HATTINGH The time that Mr Hugo wanted to spend with you for the purposes of your application? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And are you aware that in February last year there was a meeting between legal representatives of applicants and representatives of victims families, under the Chairmanship of Judge Wilson? Were you informed about this meeting? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And during that meeting your legal representatives were told that because of the time restraints that came from government level, these proceedings were supposed to have finished by August last year. MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH And because of that reason the parties were informed that they will not be allowed to give very long evidence and if they wanted to speak ...(end of side B of tape) ... and were there once again problems with access to you concerning supplements that you wanted to make? MR DE KOCK Yes, there were various. MR HATTINGH And at long last the Committee decided not to continue with that decision and they then allowed applicants to supplement their written applications orally. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH When you compiled your application, did you have insight to documents that could assist you in helping you with your memory? MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH Were you given the opportunity to consult with other members in order to assist you in your recollections? MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH After you read the other applicants' applications and documents, was your memory then refreshed because of information contained therein? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Were you approached to assist with an attack on Khanya House, in order to damage it? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who approached you? MR DE KOCK It was Capt Kotze, and the facility had to be destroyed, either by explosives or fire. MR HATTINGH And who would have been involved in this? MR DE KOCK The Explosives Unit and members of Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH And what about Mr WAL du Toit's unit or section? MR DE KOCK Well we co-opted them in terms of opening the locks. MR HATTINGH To get access to the building? MR DE KOCK Yes, and afterwards to also lock the doors behind us so that it does not seem as if somebody broke in. MR HATTINGH Was a reason given why it was decided to damage this building? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, yes, this building was used as a workplace, it was also used for actions against the then government. MR HATTINGH As a workplace by whom? MR DE KOCK By the Catholic Church. MR HATTINGH And according to the information that you received, who was working there then, who were these members? MR DE KOCK It is very difficult to say, I did not know who was there, but members of the Catholic Church, people attached to them or who worked for them and who also launched actions against the State. MR HATTINGH Did you receive any information concerning possible presence of activists? MR DE KOCK No, Vlakplaas' task was the destruction of this facility, it was more the operational side of it. MR HATTINGH Were you informed about who took this decision? MR DE KOCK I was informed that it was a Brig McIntyre, who was Head of Stratcom and I then contacted Brig Schoon and confirmed it with him. He told me yes, it is true, we must assist him. MR HATTINGH And did you then start planning the attack on the building? MR DE KOCK Yes, with Capt Kotze, amongst others, the fires question was, "what is the method that we are going to use?" We then decided on the fire or arson, because in the light of our previous actions at Khotso and Cosatu House one also saw what the destruction or the damage was, the debris and the spreading of it. After the house was shown to me there was a hotel on the west side, or rather the east side or it, on the corner, lower down there was the old Continental Hotel that was used by the police. There were approximately between four and five hundred police members who resided there. We then decided not to use explosives because of the detonation a lot of debris could result in secondary injuries or deaths. MR HATTINGH Were you worried about the fact that there could be people who would be injured or killed in it? MR DE KOCK Yes, the same as with Cosatu and Khotso House, we attempted to prevent all injuries, apart from the problems around such a task especially in an urban area. MR HATTINGH What steps did you take to prevent people from being injured? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I did not know that there was such a place like Khanya House before it was identified to me, we did not work on Churches, but then we observed the house twice or three times afterwards. I could have used some of my members, I do not recall, but at one opportunity myself and one of the Kok brothers entered the terrain of Khanya House on the side of the church. You go through the church and a fence or wall and you get to the back door of Khanya House, and they were then able because of their technical abilities, to open all the locks. We ensured that there were no guards or dogs. MR HATTINGH This access, this time when you got access to the building, was it during the day or the evening? MR DE KOCK It was late that evening and we tried to arrange it in the time in which we would then act, so we could get the feeling of the flow of traffic and the movement of people that time of the night and what would accompany it then. MR HATTINGH At this opportunity did you then actually enter the house, when you did this reconnaissance? MR DE KOCK As far as I can recall we went into the terrain but I cannot recall that we went into the building. I stood guard at the gate, they went in. Our main problem was guards or if possible, dogs. MR HATTINGH Did you see any signs that this building was used, or that people lived in this building? MR DE KOCK No, not at all. MR HATTINGH And this reconnaissance that you did through observation, what time of the day did this occur? MR DE KOCK It was also in the evenings. I think it was twice before that we also observed the house. We attempted to move in once again to get the feeling of it and the nature of the flow of traffic and the movement of people and the direction of movement of people. MR HATTINGH You say that this happened more-or-less during the time when you launched this operation, can you give us an estimate of about what time it was in the evening? MR DE KOCK I think it was just after twelve, I think it was early morning. MR HATTINGH And during this observation with regard to the building, could you then see, were there any signs that people lived there, either temporary or permanently? MR DE KOCK No, Mr Chairperson. The knowledge that I had about this building was that it was a workplace and not a residence. MR HATTINGH Were you under that impression when you launched the attack? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you accept that this operation was necessary after the instruction that was given by Brig McIntyre and the information that he conveyed to you? MR DE KOCK Yes, Mr Chairperson, I did not doubt it and it was also furthermore confirmed by Brig Schoon, who told me to go ahead. In other words, I had no doubt that he knew about it, and we will then later hear in evidence why I say so. MR HATTINGH In other words, you had the authorisation of your Commander to go ahead with this operation? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr de Kock. Where did the final planning take place? MR DE KOCK It was at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH Can you tell the Committee, apart from the applicants whose names appear in the documents, were there any other members of police units who were involved in this incident? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I looked at the names, I do not want to implicate anybody but I think there are maybe three or four people who did not apply for amnesty. It could be even more. MR HATTINGH Are these people from other units or are they from Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK No, they're from Vlakplaas but I do not want to just name names. MR HATTINGH You've mentioned a few names to me of people who you think were also involved in it, please name them although you're not even sure about it. MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I'm quite sure that Capt Snyders was involved, Lieut van Dyk, he could have been a Captain, I've also got a suspicion that there was a person with the surname of Morkel. That is my recollection concerning them. I do not want unnecessarily implicate people. MR HATTINGH But apart from Vlakplaas members, do you know if there were members from other police units who were involved in this operation, who did not apply for amnesty? MR DE KOCK No, not what I can recall now, no. MR HATTINGH Can you recall the amount of people who actually took part in this? MR DE KOCK For such an operation we needed a lot of people, but what we tried to do was to build in some kind of defence system or mechanism, so if there were problems and we encountered problems at the scene, there would some type of backup. MR HATTINGH So you did the planning at Vlakplaas, so everybody who was involved was at Vlakplaas? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And from there you went to Khanya House to execute this operation. MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH At Vlakplaas, during the planning, were there any possibilities mentioned that you would plant weapons in the building? MR DE KOCK Because it was a Stratcom operation, because we are going to act against this group who acted against the State, I on my own initiative decided to leave a few devices at the scene, of a Russian make. MR HATTINGH If you talk about devices, what kind of devices? MR DE KOCK Explosive devices. MR HATTINGH Such as, Mr de Kock? MR HATTINGH Like limpets. I hear they talked about handgrenades, I cannot recall it, but if they say so, it was so. MR HATTINGH And what about magazines for AK47s? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, yes, I also gave the instructions or permission that they had to add a few AK47 magazines and that this must be left at the scene. MR HATTINGH To create what impression? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, it heightens the value of the Stratcom operation and it creates further embarrassment for this group of people who then creates embarrassment for the State. MR HATTINGH While you then decided not to make use of explosives to destroy the building, why did you decide to then place limpet mines there? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, it would have created the impression that people were assisted from that house, assisted people from the ANC or assisted people who acted against the government in a violent way. So that just heightened the whole sense or the issue. MR HATTINGH So this building will then be burnt down? MR DE KOCK Yes, but the devices were not prepared with detonators, in other words they were burnt out. In previous experiences and also in north of Ovamboland, I also worked with landmines that did not have detonators in, so they do burn out with only the container left. MR HATTINGH And we can see in Exhibit D, page 2, paragraph 3 you say emphatically that the landmines and handgrenades were placed there without detonators. Did you give instructions that they must ensure that whatever is placed there must be without detonators? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH That is to prevent them from going off? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH You say that you have personal knowledge of landmines that if they were exposed to heat and if they did not have detonators they will not explode but they will only burn out. MR DE KOCK That is correct. I'd like to just explain. If you've got a detonator in your hand, it can also become so hot that it will detonate, that's also one thing that you teach people who work in mines, that even the heat of your hand can detonate the detonators. MR HATTINGH And if they did have detonators in and were exposed to that heat, they would have detonated and you wanted to prevent that? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Can you recall who took the landmines and whatever was placed there? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I would have given instructions to my people, I do not know who I gave the instructions to. I had the keys for the storerooms, so I would have given the person the keys as well. I can accept that we wouldn't have walked in there with it in our bare hands, we would have placed it in some container. MR HATTINGH You do not know who took it and who placed it there? MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH And did you accept that your instructions would be followed? MR DE KOCK Yes, definitely. MR HATTINGH And it also then seemed that such items were found at the scene. MR DE KOCK That's correct. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr de Kock. It was now discussed at Vlakplaas, you now depart to go to Khanya House to execute this operation. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Would you have according to the planning, entered the building yourself? MR DE KOCK No, Mr Chairperson, I would have remained outside, moved around there, not on the terrain itself, but on the side of the road. I had to observe the guard unit's building. MR HATTINGH Can I just make sure, the guard unit is the unit of the - the unit who stayed at this hotel that was used as police quarters? MR DE KOCK That is correct, people who also then guarded some of the Ministers or the President. MR HATTINGH You then observed them. MR DE KOCK Yes, and we had to be very careful that nobody contacted radio control that there's a group of, or a suspicious group. Because of the time of the evening and the nature in which we had to execute it, it could have drawn attention and in the end it did. In the way in which I moved, I moved in a vehicle with two or three other members and I moved around as a member of the Diamond Branch. I had a blue light in the vehicle and my identification. I would have been the first line of defence if the police were to arrive at the scene or any other group, to then prevent them to get to my people who were busy dousing the house. MR HATTINGH In other words, you and two members were moving around, were there other people who were to remain outside of the building? MR DE KOCK Yes, I had a second vehicle which transported members. I think it was under the command of Mr Bellingan and he then had to look out for the firearm and the provincial library. He had to remain in that area and if I warned him or needed him, he would have been able to come to assist. We were in radio contact. Then I cannot recall if it was two or three, I pointed them to remain at the access gate, or let us say at the back door of Khanya House, I placed them there, who would then protect the backs of the operators in the house. I'm sure I armed them. If somebody passed them they would have had to deal with the next group. MR HATTINGH Let us just stop there. At Khotso House, did you receive any instructions concerning what you should do in case you are surprised by outsiders while you were busy with the operation? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR DE KOCK Yes, we were told to use violence or use the weapons. MR HATTINGH If you talk about violence, what are you talking about? MR DE KOCK Well we had Uzzis with silencers and in the case of Khotso House we also took a 40mm grenade launcher with us, which I think was handled by Mr Hanton. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR HATTINGH Who gave you this instruction to use violence if somebody would surprise you? MR DE KOCK At Khotso House it was Gen Gerrit Erasmus. MR HATTINGH: He was also an applicant in that matter? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Why was it necessary to act against people who surprised you and then using weapons? MR DE KOCK Well first of all, we are an operational unit so everything that we do in that sense, or approached, would have been operational in nature. We do not know what can happen, we do not know what would happen if they pass me first of all, who they were, what the nature of it was and if they killed any of my members. And right through the world with Special Forces, the operators do, their lives come first and whoever attacks them comes second. MR HATTINGH What about the secrecy concerning your participation in operations like these, would that have played a role? MR DE KOCK Yes, secrecy was paramount, we compromise concerning this. ADV BOSMAN Mr Hattingh, can I just interrupt you, I think I've lost Mr de Kock and I'd just like to fill in the gap. Mr de Kock, your Advocate asked you who told you to use weapons in case you were interrupted and you said in Khotso House it was Gerrit Erasmus, but what about in this specific incident? MR DE KOCK I gave the instructions because I was appointed to take this operation further as the operational Commander, so I took all the responsibility. ADV BOSMAN Thank you, you've clarified it, I was just not certain. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson. And for those two reasons you gave an order that if necessary weapons be used? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And you said that you reckon that the two or three persons that you placed at the back entrance should be armed and you gave them the order for this. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH The other members, were they armed? That would be those who were supposed to enter the building. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, they had a cosh, which was some from of a leather baton which one could purchase in stores. They were armed with that and as far as I know we also had shock devices which were hand held and can also be purchased in public. We had a number of those devices among the group. MR HATTINGH Can you recall how many of the members who were involved in the operation would indeed penetrate the building? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I would say that it would have been approximately eight to nine members, because I think that we had ten cans of petrol, 20 litres worth of petrol which we took in with us. I vaguely recall that we may have mixed the petrol with pieces of rubber or soap powder and I'm not certain if we also used steel wool to add to this. It was like metal, but it glowed and it would increase the temperature. MR HATTINGH And these persons who were supposed to penetrate the building had to douse the building with the fuel and set it alight? MR DE KOCK Yes. Furthermore I must state, I don't know if I'm going too fast, but after the completion of this operation and my report of it to Mr Schoon the following morning or upon the first available occasion thereafter, Brig Schoon attack me quite furiously regarding the fact that explosive devices were left in the building. All that I can infer from that is that it wasn't part of the Stratcom plan. In other words, what I did, did not fit in to whatever Stratcom's plan was. He didn't have a problem with the arson, the break-in and the unlawful entry, but he was concerned about the devices which were not part of Stratcom's plan. MR HATTINGH Did he reprimand you quite severely regarding this? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, he wasn't the sort of man to use cuss words, but that morning he certainly did. MR HATTINGH Very well. You heard the section from Exhibit E which my learned friend, Mr van der Merwe read out, the section which appears on page 5 where Brother Jude states "It seems the arsonists were under the impression that there was no-one in the building, as they moved around fairly freely on the ground and first floors." He said that during a press conference shortly after the attack. How does that rhyme with the impression that you had? MR DE KOCK It was my belief that there would not be people in the building. MR HATTINGH Did you give any order to your members to work gently, so that they would not disturb anybody in the building? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, they went in and they themselves went in with the belief that there was no-one in the building. MR HATTINGH Did you inform them as such? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And Mr de Kock, let me ask you this first, if one examines the amount of fuel that you used, it would appear that you wanted to determine and ensure that the building would burn. MR DE KOCK Well that was our task. MR HATTINGH And was it the idea to burn the building down? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH If you had known that there were elderly persons higher up in the building, would you have continued with the attack? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You state in your application that you were severely shocked when you noted that there were indeed persons in the building shortly after it started burning. It's at the bottom of page 7 where you state that. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I state that because the golden rule that I always observed and always held to and which was broken for the first time with this, was that one would never return to a place where one had just executed an operation, one wouldn't even return a day later or a week later, one would never return. And as we all know, C1 would visit a place once and once only, because afterwards there would be nothing to go back to. But in this case I did drive back and that is why I say I think that Lieut van Dyk was with me as the driver, and the fire brigade was already at the scene and I saw that an elderly woman, who was one of the nuns, was being brought down one of the ladders and to me it was a reasonable shock because my unit was aimed against armed persons or terrorists, with the exception of all the other tasks, and this was not our line. It wasn't part of our task description. It wasn't part of our task to attack nuns. MR HATTINGH How do you feel today about the fact that you set a building alight and that you undoubtedly created much fear and anxiety for those who were occupying the building? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I would like to say to those ladies who were climbing down the ladders, that I'm tremendously sorry because it wasn't part of the plan. Our task description was to burn the building down, it was not to kill anybody. And particularly with regard to the fear and the humiliation that they suffered, I'm particularly sorry. MR HATTINGH Let us return. The people penetrated the building, you were securing the building from all sides and then you noted eventually that the building was indeed burning. MR DE KOCK I didn't notice it immediately, as the people started withdrawing and reporting back to me that everybody was back in their vehicles, because one would have to make sure that no-one was kept behind or trapped, as the vehicles reported that everybody was accounted for, they drove away and I departed last of all. We turned back, returned to the building and saw that it was burning, but by that stage the fire brigade was already there. Apparently the fire brigade station was situated approximately 80 metres away from the building. MR HATTINGH It has been put by previous witnesses that the section of the building where the printing press was housed, was actually a small building as it is indicated in a photograph on page 7, were you aware of that? MR DE KOCK No, because I didn't move around on the premises itself and I didn't enter the premises. MR HATTINGH On the photo of the building there is a caption which states: "The Remains of Khanya House Print Unit", do you know what the nature of the print unit was, to which is referred here? MR DE KOCK I didn't see it myself, but I heard that there was indeed a printing facility there. What the nature and size of it was is unknown to me. MR HATTINGH Was that part of the target? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I must state, as a result of the Cosatu House incident, with that incident one of the Scandinavian countries had established a printing unit there and that was part of the target when Cosatu House was targeted. MR HATTINGH Why was that so? MR DE KOCK Because it was used to publish literary documents which were aimed against the State policy, or which criticised State policy. MR HATTINGH And was this also the information that you received with regard to this printing unit which existed in Khanya House? MR DE KOCK Yes, that was part of the information. MR HATTINGH Very well, Mr de Kock. After everybody withdrew, you also withdrew and where did you go then? MR DE KOCK We went straight to Vlakplaas and from that point onwards we ensured that none of us had left any of our equipment behind. We gave a brief session of feedback. Among others, Mr Bellingan reported to me that he had experienced problems with the police. While we were still at the scene he heard on the radio that things appeared suspicious. I myself had also been encountered by members of the uniform branch and I told them that we were busy with a trap and that they had to depart, which they did. MR HATTINGH I think it may be in Mr Ras's application where mention is made of the fact that Brits allegedly stole a television. MR DE KOCK No, there wasn't any time for that. What Mr Brits did tell me at Vlakplaas and what he brought to me was a portable computer or sorts. He made this decision on the ground level, to take the computer because it might contain information, which is why he withdrew it from the scene. I took it from him and we gave it to Radio and Technical, to a Captain there, so that they could then draw whatever information they could from it. I didn't hear if there was any information on it and I never saw the computer again. MR HATTINGH Do you know who was appointed to investigate the incident on behalf of the police? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I only know that approximately three or four weeks later, he was then a Colonel, I think, or he had just become a Brigadier, it was Engelbrecht who arrived at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH Would that be Gen Krappies Engelbrecht who testified here yesterday? MR DE KOCK Yes. And he had two identikit photos with him, two photos of two people and he asked whether or not we recognised these persons. He said the one looked like Bellingan. I looked at the identikit photos myself. I knew that we would not be able to recognise Bellingan from there. Both of these photos were placed on the braai grill for us to view. Why he came directly to Vlakplaas is something that only he will know, none of us knew. By nature of the situation we all denied it. MR HATTINGH Someone in the documents stated or put it to Mr Engelbrecht that one of the identikits resembled you. MR DE KOCK There was no identikit which showed a person wearing glasses. Neither of these identikits had a face which wore spectacles, in fact the one face has freckles and none of the members had freckles. MR HATTINGH Did he ask if any of your members were involved? MR DE KOCK Yes, he did and we said that we didn't know anything. MR HATTINGH And do you know if there was any later information which indicated the chances of an arrest? MR DE KOCK No, not with regard to the Khanya House incident. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether anybody was prosecuted regarding the incident? MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH You request amnesty - just a moment's indulgence, Chairperson, conspiracy, damage to property, accessory to those crimes and transgressions regarding the Arms and Ammunitions Act, as well as the Explosives Act, arson. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then any lesser offences which may emanate from the facts pertaining to this incident. MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then you also request for any civil liability which may emanate from the incident. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then also attempted murder, although at that stage you did not know that they were in the building, but you later were informed of the presence of persons in the building. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Not even dolus eventualis would ... (indistinct) in such a situation, would it? MR HATTINGH I think not, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. Pardon? MS CAMBANIS No, Chair, I'll leave it for argument. CHAIRPERSON Oh, thank you. I don't know what it is, I'd rather listen to it in argument. MS CAMBANIS What it is, Chairperson, is that this is the first time that Mr de Kock has now added attempted murder on to what he asks for. It doesn't appear prior to this. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr de Kock, have you read the other applications of your co-applicants in this incident? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, all I read was the summary in the front. There is a summary in the front and that is all that I read. CHAIRPERSON And that is not precise if you have read this, the summary is not precise. Have you noted that? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, with the sentence that I have, they might as well just add it on if it's so important. CHAIRPERSON No, but what I heard you there to say Mr Brits came with a computer there when you were at Vlakplaas, when you withdrew to Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I think that I have stated here for lesser offences as well, what the nature of that may be. It was the offences which were committed in the course of action where people used their initiative in the operational context. I do take responsibility for that automatically, and of course I also approved it and we did take the computer further to see whether or not there was any information to be gleaned from it. So as far as I'm concerned, it is all part of the operation. I could give you an example, we could attack a house in Swaziland where we were informed there would be six terrorists, but then there are nine, there would be decision that would have to be taken in the heat of the moment as circumstances dictated it. CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Just one question, Mr de Kock. You were not certain of one of the Kok brothers, it is my instruction that it was Japie Kok who was with you. MR DE KOCK I will accept it as that. MR VAN DER MERWE No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr de Kock, just one aspect. My client, Mr Larry Hanton, recalls in his application which is on page 153 of the bundle, that you were one of the person who entered and from your evidence it would appear to be clear that he is mistaken. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I was definitely on the outside. In fact, I went so far with the planning which affected my role on the outside. I contacted Radio Control in Pretoria that night and asked for the rank of the Service Officer, so that I would not be apprehended at the scene by the officer on duty in Pretoria that night and that his rank would be higher than mine. In this case I had to be certain that my rank would be higher and that I could give orders and tell to leave my people alone. We didn't want to have any fight ensuing because of the ranking system while we were busy with an operation. MR NEL Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Nel. Mr Wagener? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr de Kock, on behalf of Brig Schoon, he states that at the time of this incident he was on leave. MR DE KOCK I don't know, Chairperson, because I know that he was furious regarding the fact that I had taken a decision to leave explosive devices at the scene. MR WAGENER Yes, I will come to the subsequent discussion that you have mentioned today for the first time. But he states that at the time of the incident he was on leave and that he was not previously notified of the process, that he did not know about the operation. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I would not have been able to take the order from Mr Kotze, I did not speak to Mr Hattingh and I didn't liaise with Brig McIntyre. I cleared it with him, he told me to go ahead. MR WAGENER Brig Schoon maintains that he himself has submitted a comprehensive amnesty application for very serious cases, even more serious than this case, if he was involved in it, he would have requested amnesty for it, that is why he did not ask amnesty for it. MR DE KOCK Yes, the denials of the hierarchy are legendary by this stage. I will not comment any further on that. MR WAGENER Just so, Mr de Kock, upon that statement of yours, your false evidence is just as legendary by this stage. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, when it comes to falseness, then I think that with regard to Gen Engelbrecht, with the Khotso House situation, he also came to Vlakplaas as a full Colonel of the Detective Branch, along with Mostert from Johannesburg. He visited Vlakplaas and he wanted the names of the members who were involved with Khotso House. I only gave my name and I did not give the names of the other members. So when it comes to liars in this case, Mr Engelbrecht would be first in line. MR WAGENER I am still busy with Brig Schoon, we will deal with Mr Engelbrecht later. Brig Schoon maintains that your memory has failed you in this respect and as I have listened to your evidence today, you have conceded to many aspects as to not having a recollection of it, as to not being certain of it, as to having limited memory and Brig Schoon says that your memory has failed you with regard to his involvement in this operation. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, the scale of my application is of such a nature that for the sake of completion I could not, at that stage, have given specific attention to every minor aspect. All I wanted to ensure was not to involve people unnecessarily and in so doing destroy people lives and the lives of their families. I did not want to create any injustice. MR WAGENER Lastly, with regard to Brig Schoon, the evidence today regarding his reaction upon the feedback situation is new evidence, I do not have instructions regarding this, I cannot take it any further. His instructions were that he was not at his office at the time of the authorisation for this operation. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I recall the incident very well. MR WAGENER With regard to Mr Engelbrecht, his instructions are that immediately after the incident there were already the initial accusations in the media and in the public that the police may have been involved in this incident. Do you remember this? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, no, I cannot recall what the media had to say. MR WAGENER And that the matter enjoyed a high level of prominence from the very beginning, particularly with the Department of Police. Perhaps I could just complete the statement, it led to the fact that a senior officer, Jaap Joubert was appointed to be the overall Commander or person in charge of the investigation. MR DE KOCK Well I cannot recall Jaap Joubert, he never came to Vlakplaas, Col Engelbrecht did, but it would probably have been for the purposes of a cover-up. MR WAGENER Gen Engelbrecht's instructions are that he was requested to assist with a team of investigators in this particular investigation, under the overall command of Gen Joubert. MR DE KOCK Well I simply know that he arrived at Vlakplaas, that's all. ...(end of side A of tape) MR WAGENER ... collected during the investigation that persons in the vicinity of Khanya House were seen that night and that they pretended to be police officers. It appears to be in line with your evidence and the evidence of Mr Bellingan, which we are still to hear. MR DE KOCK Yes, there was such an incident, it was foreseen and it was for this purpose that we made those preparations. MR WAGENER And based upon this, the investigating team received certain identikits. You have also referred to the identikits. That is correct. MR DE KOCK Yes, I believe they did because they arrived there at Vlakplaas with two of these identikits. MR WAGENER Furthermore, Mr Engelbrecht tells me that he didn't go directly to Vlakplaas as you said that he did, you weren't that high on his priority list as you claim to have been, they went to many places with these identikits, based upon the evidence that there were persons who appeared to be policemen, but that they did arrive at Vlakplaas in the process of their investigation with these identikits. MR DE KOCK I said it was approximately three to four weeks later, so quite apparently we were not that high on the list of priorities. MR WAGENER In conclusion he states that he showed the identikit to persons there but he cannot recall who these persons were and that it was said to him that the persons who were depicted in the identikits were unknown. MR DE KOCK Yes, he convened everybody who was there. We were under the "lapa" where the functions were usually held and everybody looked at the identikits. MR WAGENER And then in conclusion, for the sake of interest, it might not be directly relevant, he says that at a later stage he received a statement which basically led to a confession by Mr Barend Strydom, the notorius "Wit Wolf" who was in detention at that stage and that he confessed towards Mr Engelbrecht that it had been he and his unit, or the Wit Wolwe then, who were responsible for burning down Khanya House. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, that wasn't the only one, Gen Engelbrecht boasted about it because this Strydom also accepted responsibility for the explosion of Khotso House and Mr Engelbrecht took that statement with great speed, because it would keep the police clean. I know about it because he told me about it, and it was with much amusement. MR WAGENER I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Mr Joubert - oh, Mr Jansen first. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair. Jansen on record, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT Thank you, Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson. Mr de Kock, the submission of Vlakplaas is already on record, I'd just like to as they say in English "recap" on a few aspects that comes out of the submission and also out of the submission of Gen van der Merwe. ...(transcriber's interpretation) In the functioning of Vlakplaas, it was an operation unit of which you were the Commander and you had the operators under you. Sometimes you got requests from Head Office or branches, other branches. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR LAMEY And as Gen van der Merwe also said in his submission, it happened very often that it is not possible for the operative on grassroots level to really find out what is the political motive behind a certain action. MR DE KOCK Yes, Mr Chairperson, they were always informed about what we are going to do and where we're going to do it so that they can have a choice to withdraw or not, because you do not want to take somebody with you if he doesn't feel physically or otherwise ready for it, but they knew what they were doing all the time. MR LAMEY Let's talk about this incident, you get an instruction or a request, you did some groundwork that led to the decision to go ahead with this operation, if there was a really urgent reason not to go ahead because of certain information, and then question this information this information that came from Head Office and then maybe in the lower ranks you would, if you know that you received the information or the instruction, that you will assess the situation and then trust you in terms what you knew. MR DE KOCK No, they wouldn't have questioned it, and I also take responsibility for my members and all the other members who were there that evening and who were under my command. MR LAMEY I do not know if you are an applicant in that matter, and I also do not know if you have knowledge of it, the so-called Vryburg incident, where a press or something similar was destroyed in a fire. MR DE KOCK Yes, it was the National Union of Mine Workers incident, and I also applied for amnesty for that matter. MR LAMEY I represent an applicant who is under the impression that it was also a church building, but I will leave it there. Was it your impression then, right or wrong, that this Catholic Church was part of the South African Council of Churches? MR DE KOCK Mr Chairperson, I focused only on terrorism, either the prevention of the executing of it. I never worked on trade unions or churches, these were two fields that I never touched and I was led by the needs, the operational needs of other sections. MR LAMEY Very well. Were you and your members aware of the South African Council of Churches, in the sense of their solidarity with other liberation organisations? MR DE KOCK Yes, maybe it's not that important, but in my time of service in the former Rhodesia, we were informed about what the role was of churches and missions. For example, in Ovamboland at a certain stage, myself and my unit members killed members of SWAPO in an attack and we got information that pointed to the Finnish Mission and we also found chevron tracks that came from the same batch. We did not take any action against them. But you cannot really blame them because somebody that arrives there with the gun is at that stage the boss. But at the same time people from those church groups did not report it back to the police, which was approximately three kilometres from that area. So there was some kind of solidarity with the liberation movements. I cannot take it any further because I did not study it. MR LAMEY But what was important in this case, apart from the organisation who owned this building, we are from a South African context where - and the point is that this facility or this building was used to promote the liberation movement. MR DE KOCK Yes, well that was the information that we received, and I did not doubt it all. MR LAMEY And that is what you dealt with most of the time, and that is the fighting of the liberation movements. MR DE KOCK If this was part of it, Mr Chairperson, then I will agree with it, yes. CHAIRPERSON No, but here these people were inside the country, they were merely being vociferous and that wouldn't have fallen within your ambit, because you were just concerned with those people you named terrorists. MR DE KOCK Yes Mr Chairperson, as I said, this was about the destruction of the facility and not a specific member of the Catholic community. If the facility was used for activists or by activists, it would have fallen in an operational category, although Vlakplaas dealt more with active combat situations. MR LAMEY This is not the typical case in which Vlakplaas would operate in, but it is one of the cases like Cosatu and Khotso House, where you were called in and requested to provide cover and support, which is not quite part of your main function but was a request from other institutions or sections. MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes. MR LAMEY Then I'd like to ask you, some of the applicants whom I represent, do you know if they had a desk concerning churches? MR DE KOCK Well at Head Office they had the central desk, but some of the sections and some of the branches, or every Security Branch also had a church section or desk and a trade union section, etcetera. Even on the grassroots level in the branches itself there would a desk for trade unions and churches and from there it went to the section, Head Office and then from there to headquarters. MR LAMEY Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Lamey. Mr du Plessis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one or two questions. Mr de Kock, will you agree with me if I put it to you that Capt Kotze and Lieut Hammond did not have weapons with them in the execution of this operation? MR DE KOCK Yes, I will accept it. MR DU PLESSIS And can you recall - or you say that you went out two or three times to go and observe Khanya House, to do reconnaissance, can you recall, and I specifically refer to the time when you actually entered the terrain, if Capt Kotze accompanied you? MR DE KOCK I cannot. I know one of the Kok brothers accompanied me and I still think that we were three or four. MR DU PLESSIS If he is going to testify that he did accompany you, you will not deny it? MR DE KOCK No, I will not. MR DU PLESSIS And this vehicle that you used when you saw the female climb out of the building and who was assisted by the fire brigade, ... MR DE KOCK Yes, Mr Chairperson, because you ensure first of all that all your men have left the scene, that they are not being followed and in other words, that they are freely on their way and that all the members are present. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall if Capt Kotze was in that vehicle? MR DE KOCK No, I cannot. MR DU PLESSIS If he is going to testify that he was, will you deny it? MR DE KOCK No. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr du Plessis. Mr Cornelius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Just there short questions. You worked on a need-to-know basis, that's the footsoldiers. MR DE KOCK Yes. MR CORNELIUS And there was no doubt on the side of the footsoldiers that this operation was authorised through Head Office. MR DE KOCK That is correct, yes, they wouldn't have doubted it at all. MR CORNELIUS Especially with all the other policemen who worked together? MR DE KOCK And also in the light of Khotso and Cosatu House. MR CORNELIUS This was not a frolic of Vlakplaas. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then in conclusion, I also represent Blackie Swart, I realise that you did not mention him in the list of people who did not apply, but it is my instructions from him that he was not involved in it. MR DE KOCK No, Mr Chairperson, he wasn't. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr de Kock, was anyone wearing disguises or balaclavas during the course of that operation? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, there may have been persons wearing balaclavas, I know that I didn't wear one. MS CAMBANIS Would you have expected some of them would have done that? Would it have been part of your orders? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, because it would break the facial line and that could also then create confusion with possible identification. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, I can't find it in the bundle, but there's reference in the bundle to a kombi, a motor vehicle, they give the licence number place, I don't really expect you to remember, DNW 8452, someone will find it, which turned out later to be a false number plate. There was a kombi used that night with false number plates, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. What sometimes occurred was that we had prepared a whole series of number plates, not only for this particular operation but for many other operations. I'm just explaining that to you for the sake of clarity. We would go and view vehicles which were of the same make, model and year and colour and then we would take that vehicle's number and then we would go the official printers of the police which issued annual third party discs, we would have these printed and keep everything together. So yes, it would have been false numbers, it wouldn't have been able to be traced back to the us. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. The person who refers to this kombi says that there were persons sighted inside, which included black people. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, we did not take any black members with on this operation. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock at page 119 of the bundle, Jacobus Kok will give evidence, or he has said that it was his instruction to open all the doors on the first floor so that the Vlakplaas operators could search the place. It's at 2.4.4. CHAIRPERSON What's the page, Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Chair, it is 119, paragraph 2.4.4 at the bottom of that page. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, by nature of this task and the circumstances pertaining to the high density of force members so close to us, the building wasn't even 50 metres away from the unit and it was a question of entering and exiting as swiftly as possible. For example, the petrol cans were made out of plastic so that we didn't have to take it out again, we could just leave at the scene where it would burn. The plastic cans would burn in the fire. We tried to deal with the operation as quickly as possible, so that we could go in and get out as quickly as possible. MS CAMBANIS And across the page at 120, paragraph 3.3, he says that he carried out the instruction and he in fact did open all the doors on the first floor. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, they had to open the locks. MS CAMBANIS And all you are saying is that it was not for the purpose of search? MR DE KOCK There wasn't time for a search. MS CAMBANIS What would be the point of opening the locks to all the doors? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I know that upon their exit they would have to lock the doors again, so that it wouldn't look as if entry had been gained. It was just a question of sowing more confusion. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, Mr de Kock, I'm misunderstanding. He refers to unlocking doors on the first floor, he's not referring to gaining entry into the building. I understand what you're saying, but what Mr Kok is saying, he's referring to doors inside the building. That's how I read it. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it would be a question of going in as silently and as quickly as possible. Mr Kok and the others were highly capable to the extent that it would take you longer to chop a door open with an axe than what it would take them to go in. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, Mr de Kock, if you can just read the whole, his evidence at 3.3 "After everyone had obtained safe entry to the building complex, I executed my order and opened the doors on the first floor." MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it could be that they also doused that area with petrol. I wasn't in the building, so I cannot give evidence about that, I don't know. MS CAMBANIS Well Mr de Kock, actually the doused the building, the second and third, all the floors were doused with petrol, not just the first floor. MR DE KOCK Well then that must be why they opened the doors. MS CAMBANIS And you dispute that it was to check - it's not to check what was happening in the rooms? To check, for example, if people were there? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, because there was no reason for us to believe that there was anyone there. All we had to do was douse the building with petrol, set it alight and get out. We had no doubt in our minds that the building was indeed empty. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, I think you've given this evidence, I didn't hear. Jakob, the other brother Kok, at 135 his evidence is that you entered with him previously into the building. I think you've said that that's, you dispute that. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, I know that he was present when the outside door was opened and they entered, but I waited there so that we would not be surprised from the back. I have never been inside Khanya House itself, I would not even be able to give you a description today, because if I had been there I would have described it to you, I would have told you if we turned left or right, along which passages we walked and so forth. MS CAMBANIS Yes Mr de Kock, I think he's not talking about - you're talking about a previous recce, is that right? Are we on the same wavelength? MR DE KOCK Yes, I wasn't inside. MS CAMBANIS You dispute that evidence that he will give? MR DE KOCK He might be mistaken. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, and then it will be the evidence of Mr du Plessis, I understand, at page 208, that he says "We conducted thorough observation of the place" And that is what you're referring to, to the two or three times previously during the night when surveillance was carried out? MR DE KOCK For the period that we did it, it was thorough. MS CAMBANIS And it is your evidence that on none of those occasions was there any indication that people were in the building, that is was used as a residence, if I can put it that way. MR DE KOCK That is correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Now Mr de Kock we've heard your evidence regarding the use of force, can I just ask you, do you refer then to the use of force if you were attacked? Not you, or you or your operatives were attacked? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MS CAMBANIS You refer to a self-defence situation. MR DE KOCK I beg your pardon? MS CAMBANIS You're referring to a self-defence situation. MR DE KOCK Yes, not only self-defence, but also a situation of defence, because the operatives were inside the building, so if there was an attack from outside there would have to be sufficient persons to be able to defend or protect themselves. MS CAMBANIS Yes, Mr de Kock, I'm being obtuse, the point is that there wouldn't be unnecessary killing of civilians, that's all I'm trying to say. MR DE KOCK No, definitely not. MS CAMBANIS Yes. If you look at page 265 of the bundle, Mr Leon Flores, in his application he says in the second paragraph "We received information while we were busy with the operation that there nuns on the top floor in (he refers to Kagiso House, we accept that he's referring to Khanya House) who were apparently resident there." MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, definitely not. Then he might have been at Kagiso House, then it wasn't I who was there. MS CAMBANIS Yes. I think he carries on to say "We decided to carry on with the operation notwithstanding the fact that they were in the building." MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it is my belief to this very day that when we entered that building there were no people inside. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Could you just explain, what would be the rank or position of Mr Flores? MR DE KOCK He was Sergeant at that stage. MS CAMBANIS Did he fall under your command? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Would he be able to take a decision like this without your authorisation? MR DE KOCK Could you repeat please. MS CAMBANIS Would he be able to make a decision like this "We decided to carry on with the operation notwithstanding the fact that there were nuns on the top floor" MR DE KOCK Well Chairperson, I cannot say that he would have done this or that, but I believe that he would have withdrawn if there were people and so too my other members, and then we would not have executed the operation. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, let me just understand, what you are saying is that as you understood from the people under your command, they wouldn't have carried through with this operation had they known? MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson, and I also wouldn't have gone and burnt people to death. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, I have nothing further, but I would like to please consult with the persons that I represent just before I keep quiet. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I would allow Ms Patel to continue with her cross-examination and you'll give us an indication if you've got further questions to ask after the consultation. MS CAMBANIS So I should be excused? CHAIRPERSON I'm excusing you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr de Kock, was there a report-back made to you immediately after the operation had taken place? MR DE KOCK Is that at Vlakplaas? MS PATEL Yes. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, all of us came together and then every person would simply state - it was a long time ago, but basically every person would state that he was not identified or that he was not injured or that he hadn't lost any of the equipment and so forth. MS PATEL Can you recall if Mr Flores had mentioned at any stage during that report-back or sometime thereafter, that there were in fact nuns in the building at the time it was set alight? MR DE KOCK He didn't report anything to me, Chairperson. I drove back - when my people were free and away, I was the one who turned around and went back, upon which I saw a woman climbing down the ladder. MS PATEL You've stated that generally with Vlakplaas operations that you never returned back to the scene. MR DE KOCK That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Why did you choose to do so in this case? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I don't know, I'm not one to entertain mysticism, but I must have seen it somehow. I don't want to take it any further than that. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, one can certainly not take that any further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI I've got no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON I'm loathe to excuse you until we hear from Ms Cambanis. MR VAN DER MERWE Excuse Mr Chair, maybe I can help, I've just got two aspects which I want to clear up with Mr de Kock. CHAIRPERSON Are you helping her out? MR VAN DER MERWE I'm helping you out with the time that no-one was here. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VAN DER MERWE There are just two aspects I want to take up with Mr de Kock, with your permission. CHAIRPERSON Okay, you may proceed, Mr van der Merwe. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr de Kock, on page 119, paragraph 2.4.4, my learned colleague asked whether or not it wasn't possible for you to find these persons in the building, but the word "offices" were used, so it was clear that sleeping quarters was not something that was allowed for. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And then on page 135 of the record, Mr Japie Kok's statement, if one were to read his paragraph one would see "A few days later, Lieut-Col de Kock, I and another member did a reconnaissance mission. We obtained access" but no further reference is made to you, which is not necessarily an indication that you were inside the building. MR DE KOCK I agree with that, I was not inside the building. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes Ms Patel, you want to say something? MS PATEL Seeing that we have a few moments at hand, Honourable Chairperson, may I take the opportunity to place on record that the report in respect of the missing docket has in fact come through. I have given Ms Cambanis a copy of it and she is satisfied with the report, Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON She's not here to confirm. MS PATEL Oh yes, alright. CHAIRPERSON We can stretch our legs for a few minutes, we definitely need that. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (s.u.o.) FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr de Kock, on the ground floor was a documentation centre and it's my instructions that that documentation centre was not as damaged as the rest of the first floor, it appears as though petrol wasn't put into that part of the building. It's also my instructions that on the top floor, that floor was not as soaked as the other floors. Did you get any information that people had to withdraw before they had finished the task? A report I mean, sorry. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, no, not that I can recall. I could only ascribe it to haste, possible condensation because petrol is that kind of substance, but I did not receive any kind of report that they had to run. MS CAMBANIS Because one of the people who were present, Bishop Verstrate, he on awakening, found that his door had been opened although he had gone to sleep with it locked. MR DE KOCK I don't know about that, this is the first time that I've come to hear of it. MS CAMBANIS And if that is so, then it would have been one of your operatives that in fact unlocked the door and saw the Bishop sleeping. It must be. MR DE KOCK I don't know, Chairperson, because they did not report to me that they found or saw somebody there. The observation that I conducted and the first time that it came to my knowledge that some of the staff members were there or that there were people sleeping there, was when I returned and saw the lady coming out on the ladder. That was the first time that I became aware that there were persons in that building. MS CAMBANIS Who were the people that distributed the petrol mixture throughout the building? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we will have to ask them, I cannot recall how I divided them into groups. There would have been reasons why certain people went in and others waited outside. We will have to ask them. MS CAMBANIS Yes. How many groups, do you remember how many groups would have been tasked with that? MR DE KOCK I had Bellingan on the outside and another two or three persons. He also transported the greatest number of persons with petrol. And then I had two or three persons at the most exterior door or the back door of Khanya House, so to speak, it would be an access door to the premise, and then there was me. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, what I was referring to is the people that were tasked with pouring the petrol inside the building, was that one group of more? MR DE KOCK It was only one group and I think that it comprised eight to nine members in total. MS CAMBANIS And what did they report to you afterwards? Did they have any incidents? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, they did not report anything regarding incidents, so they didn't experience any resistance there or experience something which bothered them or which was disturbing. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock, I don't know if this is your field, but if there were wire taps or monitoring, electronic monitoring going on at Khanya House, who would be responsible for doing that? MR DE KOCK It would have fallen under the Security Branch of Pretoria, but I don't want you to exclude the possibility that National Intelligence Services and Military Intelligence Services could also not have had any kind of tapping device there. MS CAMBANIS And at this hearing, who would know about that? In this application. MR DE KOCK There is no-one from the Security Branch here. Demolitions wouldn't have worked with it, neither would we have, it would have had to be somebody specific from the branch, from their division. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Mr Hattingh, any re-exam? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Just one question, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, my learned friend, Ms Cambanis, has examined you regarding Flores's allegation that they determined that there were people there and that they decided regardless to continue with the operation. You've already stated in your evidence-in-chief that you informed your members that there was no-one in the building. MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you also tell them that you had made certain that there were not any people inside the building because you didn't want any injuries? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH You've already stated that he was a Sergeant, if he had determined in some or other way that there were occupants in the building, would he have possessed the capacity to decide upon his own initiative to continue with the operation or not? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So if any of the members who entered the building to cause the arson, would they have had any capacity to make such decisions? MR DE KOCK No. Let me just qualify. Perhaps Mr Flores, due to the fact that he worked under my command, had been involved in quite a number of operations, it is possible that he may have mistaken himself or that he may have deviated from the regular course of action. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Thank you very much, Mr de Kock, you are excused. MR DE KOCK Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Anything further, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Not as presently advised, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. There's a possibility that I might proceed with Mr Brits and I think that we can use this time fruitfully. CHAIRPERSON I was thinking about that, to use the term fruitfully. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. There's a document placed before you which I drew, it's the application of Brits. You would note that the application which is bound into the bundle of folio 46, is a very, very ...(indistinct) version and this will represent his testimony. I beg leave to call him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you.