amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-29 PRETORIA 10 DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS AM3745/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54434&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200829pt.htm DAWID JAKOBUS BRITS (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may be seated, Mr Brits. Mr Cornelius? EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Brits, you are an applicant in this matter and your initial application you prepared yourself without legal assistance. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you put it very short or you gave a brief version in your application and it was also signed under oath by you. MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS In the amendment on page, paragraph 7(a) and (b) in the initial application should read that you were a supporter of the National Party and that the word "none" must be removed or deleted. MR BRITS That's correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS You do confirm your career in the South African Police as it appears in page 1 of the document, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You also confirm the personal circumstances as you set it out on page 2 of the document. MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then thirdly, do you also confirm your political motivations as a policeman, as it appears on page 3? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS You were attached to Vlakplaas, the so-called C-Section of Eugene de Kock, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS During the Khanya House incident what was your rank? MR BRITS I was a Warrant Officer. MR CORNELIUS It is common cause out of the evidence that you got an instruction to assist in the arson or the setting alight of Khanya House. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Can you just in short tell us what you did. MR BRITS I was part of the group who took the petrol to the house. I was part of the group who doused the house. MR CORNELIUS You then also entered the house? MR BRITS Yes, I did. MR CORNELIUS What did you do with the petrol? MR BRITS I doused it, or I poured it out over the floor. Some of the people were busy unlocking doors. MR CORNELIUS They unlocked the doors and moved in and you poured out the petrol? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR CORNELIUS On the merit part of your application you said when you left the area you took it with you, you took something with you, what did you take? MR BRITS It was part of a computer. MR CORNELIUS Why did you do it? MR BRITS It was a very short or quick decision, I thought it may contain some information that could provide us with more information concerning the house or what it was used for. MR CORNELIUS It is common cause that sometimes documents or computers were removed from scenes that were searched, is that correct? MR BRITS That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What did you do with it? MR BRITS When we arrived at Vlakplaas I handed over the computer to Col de Kock. MR CORNELIUS Did you accept that this operation was approved by Head Office? MR BRITS Yes. MR CORNELIUS Various other sections of the Police were also involved in this. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you think that there were people in this building? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Very well. No disciplinary actions were taken against you and you followed the instructions as it was given to you. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Col de Kock also testified that everybody worked on a need-to-know basis. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS So you did not ask any questions? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any personal feelings of malice or revenge towards the owners of this house? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any remuneration for this? MR BRITS No. MR CORNELIUS Except for the salary. MR BRITS Yes, I only received my salary. MR CORNELIUS You apply for amnesty for arson, damaging of property, conspiracy, the use of explosives, defeating the ends of justice and any possible delicts that may arise from this. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you will agree with me that the computer was stolen by you and I assume that you also then apply for amnesty for the theft of the computer. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Brits, I do not know if you were there when we read from the book, I think it was Exhibit E, the version of one of the people who were in the building that states that ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS Sorry ...(inaudible) MR HATTINGH Oh I'm sorry. May I have a little booklet and then rather quote from it, Mr Chairman, lest I might mislead the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed with your question. Mr Cornelius, we'll mark the affidavit or the "aanvullende", Exhibit F. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. I made the inference that the person was in the building, but I was informed that I was wrong. A section in this version of this person to which is referred to as Brother Jude, he says: "It seems the arsonists were under the impression that there was no-one in the building, as they moved around fairly freely on the ground and first floors." Two questions arising from this and I'd like to put to you, where you under the impression that there were no people in the building? MR BRITS That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you move freely in the building without trying to - without making any noise, because you thought there was nobody in the building? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE No questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL No questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER I have no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Mr Jansen? MR JANSEN For the record, Jansen. Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT I have no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, for a moment I lost you. MR LAMEY Thank you, I see it's me, I lost myself Chairperson. I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Brits, were you with Mr Flores that evening? MR BRITS That is correct, yes, he was part of the team. MS CAMBANIS And when you entered the building you were one of the people that threw petrol, where did you go? MR BRITS Inside the house. MS CAMBANIS You will recall that has a ground floor and three storeys, do you recall that? MR BRITS Yes, I can recall that. MS CAMBANIS Yes, and so then were you on the ground floor, the top floor, all the floors? MR BRITS As far as I can recall ...(end of side B of tape) MS CAMBANIS ... was he? MR BRITS I do not know, Mr Chairperson, it was very early in the morning, it was still dark. MS CAMBANIS Who was with you on the ground floor and the first floor? MR BRITS I cannot recall, there were various people, approximately eight or nine. MS CAMBANIS You never went up to the first floor, is that correct? MR BRITS I was on the ground floor and as far as I can recall I was on the first floor. CHAIRPERSON He was on the first. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, I beg your - I'm sorry, Chairperson. From the time that you entered the building till when you left, how long would you estimate that was? MR BRITS From when we arrived at the scene until we completed it, I would say approximately 10 minutes maximum. MS CAMBANIS Inside the building distributing petrol, that's approximately 10 minutes? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS And the laying of the cordite, is that included in that time? MR BRITS Can you just repeat that please. MS CAMBANIS "Die brand tou". MR BRITS I do not know anything about that, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Mr Brits, do you know anything about the theft of a TV? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, I did not steal a TV, I took part of a computer. MS CAMBANIS From where? MR BRITS Out of one of the offices that was unlocked. MS CAMBANIS By whom was it unlocked? MR BRITS I do not know. MS CAMBANIS Was the computer taken from the ground floor? MR BRITS As far as I can recall, yes. MS CAMBANIS You've heard the comments about your colleague, that it came to his attention that there were nuns on the top floor at the house. MR BRITS We heard about it afterwards, yes. MS CAMBANIS Did you not get that information while you were inside? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS And the evening of the operation, was that the first time that you had personally been to Khanya House? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just one question, Mr Brits. In your application to us you've stated that amongst the members who were present during the operation, or who were present, you've mentioned Capt Snyders, who is not an applicant here today. Can you recall what his involvement was? MR BRITS I can recall that he was part of the planning, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say with great certainty that he was there. As I said, it was in the evening, it was dark, but it's possible that he could have been there. CHAIRPERSON When you left Vlakplaas, was it dark as well there, or where you assembled? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON So where you assembled you couldn't see each other? MR BRITS No, we could see each other, but it was a long time ago, I cannot exactly recall who was in which vehicle. CHAIRPERSON You may proceed, Ms Patel. MS PATEL Are you certain that Mr Snyders was the planning meeting at Vlakplaas? MR BRITS As far as I can recall, yes. MS PATEL But you can't say what his involvement was subsequent to the operation? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Do you know whether he was present at the report-back meeting at Vlakplaas? MR BRITS I cannot recall. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi ADV SANDI No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Brits. Mr Cornelius, any re-exam? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Only one questions, Mr Chair, thank you. You did not steal the television set? MR BRITS That's correct. MR CORNELIUS And it seems as if there's a confusion between the television and the computer. MR BRITS That is correct. MR CORNELIUS It wouldn't have made sense to in the middle of the night steal a television set and then walk down the street with this television set on your back or on your shoulders. MR BRITS No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MS CAMBANIS Sorry Chairperson, I've received an indication from my clients to consult, can I just please be excused just to take instructions regarding this matter? CHAIRPERSON With Mr Brits? MS CAMBANIS Yes, with Mr Brits. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson, may I put a question to Mr Brits? CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Mr Brits, I'm instructed that the only place that you could have taken the computer from was from the documentation centre on the ground floor. Do you agree? MR BRITS That is so, yes, I will agree with that. MS CAMBANIS And is that also the area where you doused the area with petrol? MR BRITS Yes, that is correct. MS CAMBANIS Because Mr Brits, that is the area that in fact didn't burn extensively. MR BRITS It is possibly so, I wasn't there afterwards. MS CAMBANIS But it's your evidence that you did douse it as thoroughly as you did the rest of the building? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS And the documentation centre, do you know who else entered into that area? MR BRITS I cannot recall, no. MS CAMBANIS Because that is also the place where the limpet mines were found in a cupboard. MR BRITS I cannot testify about that, I do not know anything about the limpet mines. MS CAMBANIS You don't know who brought the limpet mines to Khanya House? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS So at the time you didn't know and to this day you don't know? MR BRITS That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS Did you know at the time that limpet mines would be placed? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS And while you were in the documentation centre, you never saw who placed anything other than petrol? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Was there anyone else in the documentation centre? MR BRITS As I said, we were eight to nine people who were in the building at that stage, it was dark, I do not know who was there with me. MS CAMBANIS Sir, this is where the computer was taken from, it's an area you would remember. MR BRITS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS I'm asking about that area where you took the computer, did anyone else enter into that area with you? MR BRITS I took the computer when we were busy leaving the building. MS CAMBANIS Mr Brits, in the area from which you took the computer, was anyone else in that area with you? MR BRITS We were eight to nine people in that area, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say who was with me at that stage in the office. MS CAMBANIS Then say that, Mr Brits. Were you the only person in that area, or don't you know? MR BRITS We were eight or nine people in that area. I cannot recall who was with me at that stage, maybe I was alone. MS CAMBANIS It's possible that you were the only person that went into that area. MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson, because I did not open the doors. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS ADV SANDI Sorry, can I just ask a question here just to get clarity. When you say "that area", which part of the building are you referring to? Are you referring to the ground or the documentation centre? MR BRITS I'm talking about the ground floor. ADV SANDI Were the only person who entered the documentation centre? MR BRITS No, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Do you have anything to clear, Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS No, I don't have anything, thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, Mr Brits, you are excused. MR BRITS Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you leading any other evidence in respect of Mr Brits, Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS No Mr Chair, thank you, that concludes his application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. I see we have hit four and from the gathering of documentation people are suggesting that we end the day just here. We shall adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS