amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54438&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm CHAIRPERSON I take it he's going to testify in Afrikaans? MR CORNELIUS Correct, Mr Chair. NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant's duly sworn, Chairperson. EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Vermeulen, you are an applicant for amnesty in this matter and you've given your full co-operation to the TRC, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You were stationed at Vlakplaas, with the general background as has been submitted before to this Committee. What rank did you have at that stage? MR VERMEULEN I was a Warrant Officer. MR CORNELIUS Can you recall this specific Khanya House incident? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS And you stood under the command of Eugene de Kock and worked on a need-to-know basis and followed all his instructions. MR VERMEULEN That is correct. MR CORNELIUS Can you tell the Committee what your role was in this incident. MR VERMEULEN Mr Chairperson, I was only involved in the dousing of the building, the pouring out of the petrol and the setting alight of the building. MR CORNELIUS Was it petrol mixed with something else? MR VERMEULEN Yes, as far as I can recall it was ordinary petrol, but there could have been soap that was added to it, I cannot recall. MR CORNELIUS You did not mix it? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You've heard the evidence of Col de Kock, what section of the building did you set alight? MR VERMEULEN It was on the first floor and the ground floor. MR CORNELIUS And according to your knowledge was there anybody in the building? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You walked freely around on the ground floor and the first floor? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you remove anything from the building? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And afterwards, did you then leave or withdraw? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Were you armed? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Was any disciplinary action taken against you for this incident? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any remuneration for this? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any feelings of malice or revenge against the owners of that house? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You apply for amnesty in front of this Committee for arson, damaging of property, conspiracy and any delicts or offences that may emanate from it and anything that may emanate from what I've just mentioned, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE No questions, thank you Chair NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER I have no questions, Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN No questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT No questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Thank you. No questions, Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr Vermeulen, who went onto the second and third floor of the building? MR VERMEULEN I do not know, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Do you know whether people went onto the second and third floor of the building? MR VERMEULEN I'm not quite sure, I was just involved in the first floor and the ground floor. There could have been people who could have gone upstairs, but as far as I know I cannot recall that the building had so many floors or levels. MS CAMBANIS We know now that there were seven people who were asleep on the second floor of the building, have you heard that, been informed of that? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairperson, but that was after the operation. MS CAMBANIS Did you hear it the following day, that seven people had been asleep on the second floor? MR VERMEULEN I'm not quite sure when I heard it, but I think it was the next day or sometime afterwards. MS CAMBANIS And you don't know who was responsible for going onto the second and third floors? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS You never asked questions? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS It was never discussed between yourselves? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Do you know if there is an applicant who is going to come forward and say they were on the second or third floor? Do you know that, Mr Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN I think there will be one. MS CAMBANIS On person? MR VERMEULEN Yes. MS CAMBANIS And that you know from discussing outside? MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Yes. When was the first time that you ever went to Khanya House, was it that night? MR VERMEULEN That night, yes, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS CAMBANIS Sorry, Chairperson, I do, I've made a mistake. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS CAMBANIS On the ground floor, Sir, do you remember which structures you entered? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can know I just went into the passage and I sprinkled the petrol and I opened a couple of doors that were closed, but they weren't locked. That's all, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS Do you remember a room that looked like it had shelves full of documents? The documentation centre, full of papers, an office? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS You didn't yourself enter that? MR VERMEULEN No. MS CAMBANIS Do remember that there was another office jutting out of the building that was not doused at all? MR VERMEULEN No, I didn't know about that, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS Did you have any instructions to leave certain offices not doused in petrol? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS When did you attend the briefing session? MR VERMEULEN The afternoon before the operation. MS CAMBANIS And you've heard what Mr Ras has said about the briefing. MR VERMEULEN That's correct. MS CAMBANIS And is that your recollection? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, now I definitely do not have any further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Vermeulen, was the building lit when you entered it? MR VERMEULEN Just repeat that question please, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Was the building lit, was there light when you entered through the passages? MR VERMEULEN Yes, yes, it wasn't completely dark, we could see where we're going. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I'm not saying it's semi or what, was there light like we are in this room? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recollect it was, ja, there were lights in the passage, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON The other rooms which you found not locked, was there light in them? MR VERMEULEN Not all of them, as far as I can recall, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Vermeulen. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions for this witness. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI No questions, thank you Chair. MR VAN DER MERWE Excuse me Chair, with your permission, through your questions there's just one aspect which I have to put to the witness of evidence that will come. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Thank you, you may do so, Mr van der Merwe. ADV SANDI Just before that, I've said I have no questions, I do in fact have one. Can I just ask you, you've just said ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Could we have Mr van der Merwe first and then the Panel last. ADV SANDI Okay, sorry. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Vermeulen, I appear on behalf of Kobus Kok and my instructions from him were that when he did go into the building he did switch off all the lights on all the levels, do you know about that? MR VERMEULEN No, I do not bear knowledge of that. MR VAN DER MERWE So when they entered the building they did switch off the power. MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recall it was light because we could see what we were doing. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Advocate Sandi, I'm sorry about that. ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. You've just said there was light in the building, but were you not concerned that you could be identified? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chair. ADV SANDI Weren't you wearing a balaclava or something? MR VERMEULEN I had one on when we were travelling in the bus, but I don't think I had it on, I took it off because it was quite hot, Mr Chair. ADV SANDI Were you the only one who had a balaclava covering his head? MR VERMEULEN Not as far as I know, I think there were more people, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Now finally, any re-examination, Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I've no re-examination, that concludes this application. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Vermeulen, you are excused. MR VERMEULEN Thank you, Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you leading further evidence in respect of Mr Vermeulen, or are you calling another applicant, Mr Cornelius? MR VAN DER MERWE I'm not leading any further evidence. My learned colleague, Mr Nel will proceed with Mr Hanton, Mr Chair. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chair, my client Mr Hanton and Oom Snor will be travelling to Durban after he's testified and ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He's travelling with Mr Snor. MR NEL He's travelling with Mr Snor. CHAIRPERSON Not Mr Snor, Oom Snor. MR NEL Mr Chairman, Mr Hanton will be testifying in English and he will take the oath.