amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES AM4361/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54440&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm ADV BOSMAN Will you be testifying in Afrikaans? MR FLORES In English. ADV BOSMAN In English, well it's over to the Chairman then. CHAIRPERSON Could you give us your full names for the record, Mr Flores. LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you may be seated Mr Flores. EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Flores, you're an applicant for amnesty in this matter and your application is to be found on folio 245 of the bundle, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Just for the sake of completeness, as far as paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) is concerned, were you a supporter of the National Party? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS We find your political objectives set out from page 245 up until page 263 of the bundle, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Do you confirm this to be your political belief at that time? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At the time this operation took place you were station at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS What was your rank? MR FLORES Sergeant, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Now on page 263 you refer to Kagiso House operation, what are you referring to? That's page 263, Mr Chair. MR FLORES I'm referring to Khanya House, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Do you wish that to be corrected then? Is that the way you thought the spelling used to be at that time? MR FLORES I don't know where I got that word from, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Fine, but this obviously refers to the Khanya House operation? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Could you give a brief outline of what your actions were that specific day? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, yes, after we were briefed we were allocated certain ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Where were you briefed? MR FLORES At Vlakplaas. MR CORNELIUS What was your brief? MR FLORES We were basically just briefed what the set-up was of Khanya House and that the main objective was to destroy a printing press situated in the premises. MR CORNELIUS By what means? MR FLORES Arson, by burning it. MR CORNELIUS Were you involved in the direct planning or was this done on a different level? MR FLORES I was just at the briefing but in the direct planning, not at all, I wasn't present. MR CORNELIUS I see. There's evidence that has been led which was not disputed, that professional locksmiths were taken with to gain entrance, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Now what did you exactly do on the scene, what was your actions at Khanya House? MR FLORES My task, Mr Chairperson, I had to just, once they opened the gates we had to enter and we were allocated to certain positions just to secure the perimeter. MR CORNELIUS What did you do? MR FLORES I went, if I can recall correctly, to the north side of the building. As I put in my application, I was accompanied with Capt du Plessis, but as previous applicants said, I was apparently with Mr Ras, which could be possible, I may have been confused. MR CORNELIUS I see. You're in doubt about that fact? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS I see. Were you armed? MR FLORES I was armed with a pick handle. MR CORNELIUS Mr Ras said there's a possibility that you might have had a .22, what have you got to say about that? MR FLORES I cannot recall that. I won't dispute it, but I cannot recall it. MR CORNELIUS As far as you are concerned you had pick axe? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Was that purely to attack or of a defensive nature? MR FLORES Defensive, just in case someone did come in, we had to apprehend them, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Now you made two statements on page 265 or your application which we don't find in any other applications, where you say you received information "while we were busy with the operation that there were nuns on the top floor in Kagiso House, who were apparently resident there" and then you say: "We decided to carry on with our operation, notwithstanding the fact that they were in the building." Are you sure about these facts? MR FLORES That is in my application, Mr Chairperson, but in the last two days listening to other applicants, definitely I was confused there, I must have heard that just after the incident or ...(indistinct) MR CORNELIUS When you drew your amnesty applications, did you have a long period of time to consider all the merits and did you have a period of time where you could consult with the other members involved? MR FLORES Not at all, I had 24 hours, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And how many applications did you have to draw? Were you under pressure from the investigation team? MR FLORES Yes, I was, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And if I recall correctly, you were also under pressure to be assistant with the exhumation of bodies and various things which placed a lot of pressure on you, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS In this 24-hour period of time, how many applications did you have to prepare? MR FLORES 18 in total, 18 different incidents, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Is that at your place of residence in Phalaborwa? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Was it done at the local hotel, if I remember correctly? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you have knowledge that there were people in the building? MR FLORES Prior to the execution of the ...? MR CORNELIUS Yes, prior to the execution. MR FLORES Not at all. MR CORNELIUS When did it come to your knowledge that there were people in the building? MR FLORES As I've just said, Mr Chairperson, in my application I've stated that, as I've just said it was wrong, that while we were doing the security of the perimeter, but only afterwards. MR CORNELIUS How did it come to your knowledge then? MR FLORES It could have been later the evening when we returned back to Vlakplaas, that Col de Kock ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Are you sure of this fact or are you guessing? MR FLORES I'm just speculating by myself. MR CORNELIUS Yes, you must be precise. Did you move around freely in the building? MR FLORES No, I was just securing that one section. MR CORNELIUS Did you get any impression that there were people sleeping there? MR FLORES Not at all. MR CORNELIUS You heard what I read previously to a previous witness, Exhibit E, that it seems to be the impression of certain people at press conferences as well, that you people didn't know that there were people there, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any bonus, except your salary, for your participation in this project? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any hate directed against the owners of the building? MR FLORES None whatsoever. MR CORNELIUS You are applying for amnesty to be granted for arson, malicious damage to property, conspiracy to commit a crime, possible offences under the Explosives Act, obviously defeating the ends of justice because you didn't disclose your participation and the true facts and then all delicts that may flow from your acts, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Cornelius. Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I do not have any questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE No questions thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL No questions, thank you Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr Flores, I am appearing on behalf of Capt du Plessis and I just want to be certain, he will testify - I'm sorry, the witness gave evidence in English. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's correct. He doesn't have earphones, would you attempt to communicate with him in English? MR WAGENER Capt du Plessis will testify that he was in fact one of the people that went into the building with petrol and that he did not stay outside with you. That will be his evidence. MR FLORES I won't dispute that, Mr Chairperson. MR WAGENER Thank you, Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Mr Jansen? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair. Mr Flores, your role was purely that of a minor operative in this operation. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR JANSEN If something had gone wrong inside the building or outside the building, it would not have been your decision to abandon the operation or to continue with it? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR JANSEN I know there's been a lot of argument in the entire process of the TRC, as to who has what discretion at what stage, but at least at the very most, either the people inside the building would have made such a decision to either continue or withdraw, or they would have relayed information to Col de Kock and he would have made those major decisions, correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR JANSEN At the time that you were guarding this building, you did not have contact with either the people inside the building or with Mr de Kock? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR JANSEN Did you have any other contact with any of the other operatives guarding the building on the outside? MR FLORES Nothing whatsoever, except for the person with me. MR JANSEN Yes, and that was Ras? MR FLORES That's correct, I understood it now. MR JANSEN Thank you, Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Jansen. Mr Joubert? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you, Chair. Mr Flores, just a single question. When you refer to a directive, it's on page 263 of your application, received from the Security Branch in Pretoria, are you merely referring to the instructions that were given to you by Col de Kock during the briefing session? MR FLORES That's correct, I actually assumed it was the Security Branch and only at these hearings heard that it was Stratcom. MR JOUBERT I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY I've got no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Sir, are we to understand from your evidence today that you did not at all enter the structure of Khanya House? MR FLORES Not all, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Where were you? MR FLORES I was placed, designated on the north side, as I stated, and when Mr Ras gave his version his version just now I did recall that he was correct, at a gate under like a dome, if that's the right word I'm using. CHAIRPERSON You may take them off, he's testifying in English. You may take the earphones off, he's testifying in English. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, I have a ... CHAIRPERSON Oh, an ear problem. MS CAMBANIS Sorry. CHAIRPERSON No, no that's okay. MS CAMBANIS Mr Ras said that as he recalled, that he was positioned on a carport, a roof of a carport, I think was the translation. MR FLORES That could be possible. MS CAMBANIS Your legal representative is pointing to a picture on page 7, if you can just look at that, of Exhibit E. MR FLORES That could be possible. MS CAMBANIS It's possible that it's that? MR FLORES Yes, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Just read the writing next to it. It says it is the remains of Khanya House print unit. MR FLORES That's correct, as I said, it could be possible. The evening we entered was the first time I ever saw the premises and have never been back since, so it's difficult to recall exactly where I was. MS CAMBANIS But the place that you were standing, were there operatives that entered the building that you were standing on? MR FLORES No, no, if I recall correctly there was some sort of gate. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Sir, I don't know your previous evidence, Sir, were you involved in how many arson attempts? How many applications involving arson have you applied to, to the TRC? MR FLORES Including this one, two, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS What was the other one? MR FLORES The other one hasn't been heard yet, it's still coming forth. It's an incident in Witbank. MS CAMBANIS Does the incident in Witbank involve a church? MR FLORES Yes, it does. MS CAMBANIS In which there were occupants at the time of the ...? MR FLORES No, there wasn't occupants, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Of the two arson events for which you apply, is this the only one which involved people being in the structure at the time that the operation was carried out? MR FLORES Just repeat that please. MS CAMBANIS You apply for two arson incidents. MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS This one and the one in Witbank. MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS The one in Witbank, no occupants at the time of the operation? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS So therefore this is the only one that people were in during the time? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Just look again at page 265, Mr Flores. Before you look at that, in any of your other applications for anything else, were nuns involved? MR FLORES No, no, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Was the church involved? MR FLORES Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Which one? MR FLORES The one in Witbank, I don't know what church it was, what denomination it was, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Now Sir, as it turns out the fact is that there were people in Khanya House that night and your sentence is factually correct to the extent that people were there at the time of the event, you know that now. MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Just please, it baffles me, can you explain to me where this sentence comes from? MR FLORES If I can put it as such, I think I totally misplaced and misphrased this section, Mr Chairperson, and as I previously stated as well, I did 18 different incidents within 24 hours. MS CAMBANIS Yes, Sir, and that is why I asked you about the nature of the operations and whether you were confusing it with one of the other 17 or 18 events. MR FLORES That's correct, but I think one can make a mistake, Mr Chairperson, if you are told after the incident that there were people in, like Mr de Kock gave in his evidence, saying that he saw a lady or a woman being carried down by fire department people and being a church, one would say that obviously it's going to be nuns and in that case it's just totally confused. If I can refer, I've got different names, I'm misplacing people, so this whole application of mine is a confusing one at present. MS CAMBANIS No, no, where have you misplaced names, Sir? MR FLORES I placed Mr du Plessis ...(intervention) MS CAMBANIS One error, yes? What other error is there? MR FLORES I said Kagiso House and not Khanya House. MS CAMBANIS Yes, and what else? MR FLORES I referred to Mr Ras saying I had a weapon and I say I had a pick handle. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR FLORES That's basically it. MS CAMBANIS Sir, just please tell me this, can we agree that there is no other of your applications which you could have confused with this incident? MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Yes. As a matter of interest, why do you say it being a church you would have associated it with nuns? MR FLORES Being Catholic, they say it was Catholic, so I refer to women in Catholic churches as nuns. MS CAMBANIS And the Bishops that were present? MR FLORES It could have been Fathers. MS CAMBANIS Is this a laughing matter, Sir? MR FLORES Are you referring to me now? MS CAMBANIS Yes, I'm referring to you. MR FLORES I wasn't laughing now, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Being frivolous, Sir. MR FLORES Not at all. MS CAMBANIS Do you have anything to say to the people, the 70-year old nun, it being Catholic, that had to be rescued from the second floor that night? MR FLORES I can just state as Mr de Kock and Mr McIntyre have stated, is that my humble apologies for any inconvenience and the trauma they had at that stage and I apologise, I'm sorry for what happened. MS CAMBANIS Are you aware that seven people were trapped on the second floor that night? MR FLORES Only afterwards we were notified, yes. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Now if you look at page 265, you've made this inconceivable error, look at the next sentence "We decided to carry on with our operation, notwithstanding the fact that they were in the building." MR FLORES That's correct that I state it there, but that is also wrong there. MS CAMBANIS Yes, I've heard you say that is wrong. Do you see that that stands separately, that's a separate concept to the one in the second? MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS And what do you say about besides that it is wrong? How is it possible? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I can't answer on that. MS CAMBANIS When you were writing this, who is the "we" that you refer to? At the time that you make this application, who is "we decided"? MR FLORES I presume if one would write "we" in the statement, it would say everyone involved in that specific incident. MS CAMBANIS And as you recall when you were recalling at the time of making the statement, how would that decision have been made out, amongst all of you in the operation? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, one again, this is totally misinterpreted by me in the wrong manner and I can't answer on that. MS CAMBANIS Look at page 264, Mr Flores, the third sentence "The operation was carried out with military precision" MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Is that still correct today? MR FLORES That's correct. MS CAMBANIS Explain to us what you mean by that please. MR FLORES Military precision is terminology we use that there was a planning of the operation, certain people were allocated certain tasks and the Intelligence network and in covert operations one would refer to as military precision, Mr Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair, I have nothing further for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Flores, in your evidence-in-chief you stated that you were briefed at Vlakplaas, can you recall whether this was a general briefing session with all the operatives present? MR FLORES If I recall correctly, I could be wrong, Mr Chairperson, I presume we are all present at the general briefing. MS PATEL You also stated that you were told what the set-up of Khanya House was, what did you mean by that, can you elaborate? MR FLORES Yes, Mr Chairperson, basically the set-up is where we would enter, the north side where I was allocated to, what side the printing works would be, basically the infrastructure how it would be. I mean we wouldn't just enter not knowing where to go, what position. MS PATEL Okay. So was there a map or a plan there that was drawn, where you were shown where you were to be positioned? MR FLORES I can't recall any photos or plans as such, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL But the layout of the building was definitely described to you. MR FLORES Yes, it would have been. MS PATEL Then also, you've stated in your, you give quite a lot of detail in your application, amongst others you state that a device was planted in the printing works and your instructions were to apprehend anyone who gained access to that area. You also say that a certain Capt Kotze planted the device and set it, do you confirm that? MR FLORES That's what I stated there, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL But you stand by that testimony? MR FLORES I can't say that, listening to all the previous applicants, that Mr Kotze did plant it. MS PATEL Then there's not much that one can then rely on in terms of your application, because you're basically retracting a lot of it. MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, if I could just notify the Commission as well, as I've stated I did 18 applications in 24 hours, the original copy was then lodged in Cape Town at the TRC's offices, we had to then rewrite everything again, which was not on any computer disk or anything. MS PATEL And your application was lodged in 1996, is that correct? MR FLORES '97 or '7, that is possible. MS PATEL It's '96. And you've had four years in-between, well almost four years in-between then and now, to think about the various incidents and to supplement your papers before you came here and before you listened to the testimony of everyone, not so? MR FLORES That's correct. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Patel. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Flores, just one question. How many of your applications have been heard thusfar? You said you applied for 18 incidents. MR FLORES I think it's 11, Mr Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN About 11. Have you had the same difficulties in those applications, that your evidence, your oral evidence did not correspond with the written applications? MR FLORES There are a couple, Mr Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN What do you sort of, how do you explain it? It's a general occurrence that you have difficulty with the discrepancies between the document and the oral evidence. MR FLORES Chairperson, well I'm human, I make mistakes, I can't recall everything. ADV BOSMAN No, no, that I understand, but is there no other explanation except that it's a memory problem? MR FLORES It could be a memory problem, I don't know, I haven't been checked on that, Mr Chairperson, I can't ... ADV BOSMAN So as far as you know you're not suffering from a general memory disability problem at all? MR FLORES Up till now not, I hope not. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Thank you, Chair. The Witbank incident you've mentioned, is that also a Roman Catholic Church? MR FLORES I have no idea what denomination that one is, Mr Chairperson, the church. ADV SANDI If it had been discovered that there were people inside the Khanya House building, would it have been decided that - I know that this would not have been your decision, what would have happened, would it have been decided that you carry on with the burning down of the place, nevertheless? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, would that be prior to entering the premises? The knowledge of persons ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Let's say when you entered the premises before it was doused with petrol. MR FLORES There persons in charge would have aborted the mission. ADV SANDI Ja, but why did you - just as part of the enquiry to get some explanation of the mistake you say you have made, but why do you say "We decided to carry on with our operation, notwithstanding the fact that they were in the building" Why do you say that there? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I've no idea why I stated this, those two, three sentences as such. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Flores, just on page 245, this is what I don't understand, 8(b) you say "(1) Sergeant: 15 years (2) No rank: 2 years" Is that within the Police Services? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, could you just repeat that paragraph, so I could just find it. CHAIRPERSON 8(b). 245, the written portion of the application. MR FLORES Yes, number (1) where I say "Sergeant: 15 years" that was while I was a member of the South African Police at that time. CHAIRPERSON And the "no rank" one? MR FLORES "No rank" was, I was a member of the Directorate of Covert Collection, Military Intelligence. CHAIRPERSON Director? MR FLORES Directorate of Covert Collection. CHAIRPERSON But does that not fall within the Police? MR FLORES I was appointed as a civilian working for Military Intelligence, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-exam? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Flores, if I recall correctly, you were under treatment of Dr Russel Matthews, a Clinical Psychologist at one stage, is that correct? MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS That was following quite a severe nervous breakdown. MR FLORES That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Furthermore, you were the rank of a Sergeant at the time this Khanya House attack took place, was that the lowest rank available on the scene that day or not? Of all the operatives at the project, were you the lowest rank? MR FLORES Chairperson, yes, I don't think our unit had Constables at that stage, so a Sergeant would be the lowest then. MR CORNELIUS Yes. And you worked on the need-to-know basis, you testified that. MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Would it have been expected of you to make decisions on the ground? MR FLORES Not at all, Mr Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS This was a highly planned operation, I can see it clearly from the documents. MR FLORES That's correct. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS ADV BOSMAN Mr Chairman, may I just ask one more questions, if you will allow me please. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I would. Mr Flores, what is your level of education? MR FLORES Standard eight. ADV BOSMAN And 15 years in the Police and you reached the rank of Sergeant, is that not rather slow progress? MR FLORES That is correct. ADV BOSMAN What is that due to? MR FLORES Maybe I just didn't have it up here, Ma'am. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Flores, you are excused. MR FLORES Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON I see we have just gone past eleven, we'll take the tea break. We'll adjourn for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Who is next? MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Van der Merwe on record, the next applicant will be Mr Tait.