amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT AM3922/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54441&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm ADV BOSMAN Will Mr Tait be testifying in Afrikaans? MR VAN DER MERWE He will speak Afrikaans and he will take the oath, thank you Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Mr Tait, will please give your full names for the purposes of the record. JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is duly sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. You may be seated, Mr Tait. Mr van der Merwe. EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Tait, you are an applicant in this matter and your application appears in the bundle from page 141 to 148, is that correct? MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE You confirm the truth and the correctness of the contents of your application as it appears in the bundle. MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE And you also confirm that you were a member of the operation to damage Khanya House and to set it alight. MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE On page 144 and 145 to 146, you have set out your recollection of how this operation took place, is that correct? MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Could you briefly tell the Committee what your specific role was on that evening with this operation? MR TAIT It was my task to assist in setting the adjacent building in which the printing press was alight and to douse the building with petrol. MR VAN DER MERWE Which building did you douse with petrol? MR TAIT It was the building that stood to the one side in which the printing press was housed. MR VAN DER MERWE Were you ever in the main building? MR TAIT Under no circumstances. MR VAN DER MERWE In your political motivation you have mentioned the ANC and the externally trained MK cadres, when you compiled your amnesty application, did you have any contact with any of the other applicants who are also part of this matter? MR TAIT I had no contact with them. MR VAN DER MERWE In other words, the motivation that you set down there was the motivation as you had it according to your recollection? MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE If the evidence will be from the victims in this matter that there were no trained MK cadres in the building or that it was not a haven for ANC cadres, would you differ from it? MR TAIT I don't understand. MR VAN DER MERWE Would you differ if the members of the church that they never harboured MK members or that they ever accommodated weapons there, would you differ with that version? MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE However, in this matter you were a member of Vlakplaas and you received your orders and instructions from Mr de Kock to participate in this operation. MR TAIT That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you have any independent knowledge pertaining to Khanya House, did you know what was going on there or what was happening there, before you received the instruction? MR TAIT No, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Were you ever previously in Khanya House? MR TAIT No. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Tait, on page 7 of Exhibit E, it is not in the bundle, it is an exhibit, you can look at my copy of it. There we have a building which appears to be an adjacent building which is not part of the main building, is that the building in which you doused the fuel and which you set alight? MR TAIT Yes, it appears to me to be so. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, I've got no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BUNN Mr Chairman, Adv Jansen had to go and attend to some urgent business, Steven Bunn on behalf of applicant Ras, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Joubert? MR JOUBERT Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Just one question, Chairperson. Mr Tait, could you look at Exhibit E, page 2, it is page 2, do you have it? There is says: "the sound of breaking glass" MR TAIT Yes, I have it. MR LAMEY Could you compare that photograph with the one on page 7. What I want to ask you is that on page 2, the photo there, is that on the same outside section as what appears on page 7? MR TAIT It may be. I cannot recall the scene that well in my recollection any longer. MR LAMEY Very well. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Mr Chairperson, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS ]CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr Tait, your legal representative has referred you already to page 146, where you said that the political objective, at paragraph 10(a) you say: "To damage by means of fire, the hiding place which the ANC used in order to store weapons and ammunition and to harbour trained MK cadres" Is that correct? MR TAIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Where did you get this information from? MR TAIT Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was what was conveyed to us as the reason why the building had to be burnt down, because it was utilised by the ANC. MS CAMBANIS Yes, who said that to you? MR TAIT It was during the afternoon, during the planning of the operation that I assume I would have heard it. MS CAMBANIS At the planning meeting? Sorry, did you say at the planning meeting? MR TAIT Yes, that is where I would have heard it. MS CAMBANIS What happened, what was discussed at the planning meeting? MR TAIT There was a discussion regarding every person's participation in the operation, what it would be. MS CAMBANIS Who decided that? MR TAIT Mr de Kock would have decided who was supposed to do what during the operation. MS CAMBANIS And is it Mr de Kock who would have said that this Khanya House had been used as a shelter for ANC persons? MR TAIT That is how I have recalled it. MS CAMBANIS And would he have said that weapons and ammunition was being kept on the premises? MR TAIT Chairperson, that is how I understood it. If he didn't say it as such, it was my own interpretation. MS CAMBANIS Do you know that explosives were in fact found on the premises the following day? MR TAIT Chairperson, not that I can recall it. MS CAMBANIS Do you know anything about explosives being planted at Khanya House? MR TAIT Chairperson, no. MS CAMBANIS Sir, on page 145 of your application, in the last paragraph the fifth line you refer "I am certain that Dawid Brits was indeed in my presence." MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Chairperson, I assume that is the same Mr Brits who has already given evidence before this Commission. MR TAIT I assume so, Chairperson. I wasn't here when he testified, but I assume it is the same person. MR VAN DER MERWE May I assist, Mr Chairman, it's affirmative, it's the same Mr Brits. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Sir. Now what do you mean that you are sure: "I am certain that Dawid Brits was in my presence" MR TAIT That I was certain that he was with me during, or at least, as far as I can recall. When I made this application with my legal representative it was part of my recollection that Dawid Brits was with me, if he says that he wasn't with me, it may be so, but I cannot dispute it. But that is how I recalled it during the deposition of my statement. MS CAMBANIS And that would mean that he had assisted you in your work at the printing house? He was with you when you did your work in the printing house. That's what you remember. MR TAIT That is as far as I had it in my recollection, that he was indeed with me. MS CAMBANIS And do you know if Mr Brits entered into Khanya House itself, later that evening? MR TAIT No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Would he have left at the same time with you? ADV BOSMAN Excuse me, Ms Cambanis, that was really an ambiguous answer. Can you just repeat your question, because he gave a rather ambiguous answer there. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Do you remember if Mr Brits left the premises with you at the same time after the operation? MR TAIT Yes, as far as I can recall all of us who participated in the operation left the premises together in vehicles and returned to Vlakplaas. CHAIRPERSON When you left the places where you were dousing petrol and you say you were sure that you were with Brits, did you leave from that end towards the cars at the same time? MR TAIT Yes, I cannot recall, it may be that Brits and I moved to the vehicles together, but I cannot recall to such an extent that I would say that we were precisely a pace away from each other as we moved back to the vehicles. ADV BOSMAN May I just clarify this again because it's still worrying me. The question was whether you and Mr Brits entered Khanya House and you said no, can you recall whether he entered Khanya House or not? Could you just clarify that? MR TAIT If you refer to Khanya House, the reason why I said no, I'm referring to the big building itself. Are you referring to the main building or the adjacent room? ADV BOSMAN There was the adjacent room and then the main building and if I understood Ms Cambanis correctly, she wanted to know whether Mr Brits entered the main building. MR TAIT No, I don't know anything about that. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. I'm sorry for the interruption, but I was a little confused with his answer. Thank you, Ms Cambanis. MS CAMBANIS But what you do remember is that Mr Brits was with you during the operation. MR TAIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And you confirm that you yourself did not enter the main building. MR TAIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Mr Tait, I don't know if you've given this, were you part of a surveillance team prior to this event? MR TAIT No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Is it your evidence that the first time you knew of this operation was the afternoon or the day of the incident? Is that your evidence? MR TAIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Do you know who was in charge of the - I don't know in English, "brand tou"? MR TAIT No, Chairperson. MR NEL Mr Chairman, may I perhaps come in here, my client Mr Hammond says that it's called an igniter cord, a "brand tou", in English. MS CAMBANIS Thank you very much. Was igniter cord not used to set the printing room alight? MR TAIT Chairperson, I cannot give a precise answer to that because my share was only to douse the building with petrol and to leave. MS CAMBANIS And regarding the printing room you do not know how that was actually set on fire? MR TAIT No, I would not be able to answer that. MS CAMBANIS Sir, do you recall what time you arrived at the premises that evening? MR TAIT No, I cannot recall a specific time. MS CAMBANIS And how long did you stay in the vicinity? From your arrival, did the operation and left, how long would you say that was? MR TAIT Chairperson, if I had to estimate, I would say that it could not have been longer than 30 minutes. MS CAMBANIS While you were outside the main building, did you see any lights being put on or off inside the building? MR TAIT No, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Do you recall that there - you've seen from the photographs there's a ground floor and three storeys. MR TAIT That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And when you arrived, were the lights on in the building? MR TAIT I cannot recall. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me one moment please. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Sir, just one aspect that I'm not entirely sure on, I believe you might have answered it. You state in your application on page 145, that you're certain that Dawid Brits was in your presence and then you say "Afterwards we took a can containing petrol and doused the inside of the building with the petrol" Does that mean Mr Brits assisted you in dousing the section where the printing press would have been? MR TAIT It may have been like that, Chairperson, but I know that I had a can of petrol and that I doused the area with petrol. I don't know whether Brits had petrol on him. There wasn't only one person sent into a building to do the job, it would not have been like that. MS PATEL And then you state further that after whatever you did in the building, you say "And immediately withdrew" which means that Mr Brits then departed immediately with you, is that what you mean to say by that? MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. If one withdrew, then everyone who was in the building would automatically withdraw with that person. MS PATEL And then finally, given that the information that was handed to you at the briefing session prior to operation, was that the building was used a harbouring place for ANC/MK cadres and that arms and ammunitions were in fact kept there, what was the instruction specifically? MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, may I just come in here, it's not a fair question. My clients answer was that that is his recollection of what was told to him, he did not confirm that that is actually what was said, it was his recollection, and I don't think it's fair to put it to the witness that that is what was told to him. ADV BOSMAN He actually added that it might be his interpretation. MR VAN DER MERWE Correct. MS PATEL My colleague, Ms Cambanis seems to recall that that was only in connection with, or in relation to the arms and ammunitions and not in relation to the harbouring of ANC activists. MR VAN DER MERWE I beg to differ, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON He was asked about 10(a), on page 146. MS PATEL Alright, Honourable Chairperson, I will leave it there, but if I may rephrase my question. Given that it is your recollection, or you might have interpreted the information given to you at the planning meeting, if you can recall, given that that might have been the information handed to you, what was the specific instruction that was given in respect of what was to be done at the operation? Was it that only the building was to be set alight, or can you recall whether there were any specific instructions with regard to what was to be done if anyone was to be found on the premises? MR TAIT According to my recollection, we were to destroy the building by setting it on fire. MS PATEL There was no planning in terms of what is to be done if anybody is found on the premises? MR TAIT Not that I can recall, there may have been such a plan, it may have been mentioned, but I cannot recall anything about that. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI Also no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON If you have a look at page 145, just the last sentence on page 145 "At this stage however, I am not at all certain how the outside room's fire was co-ordinated with the fire in the main building." Do you see that sentence? What you were briefed on before your departure, or that afternoon at Vlakplaas, were all the buildings to be destroyed which were on the premises? MR TAIT That is how I have it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you were tasked only with dousing of the adjacent building? MR TAIT That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you got to Vlakplaas, was there a discussion of whether this was a success or not? MR TAIT Not that I can recall. CHAIRPERSON Because on page 146 you say "After we withdrew we left the scene immediately and returned to Vlakplaas, after which all of us departed for our homes." MR TAIT That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That's what your recollection is? MR TAIT That's correct. CHAIRPERSON You were a member of Vlakplaas. MR TAIT That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr van der Merwe? MR VAN DER MERWE I have nothing further to add, thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON No, I thought you would re-examine him, not add. MR VAN DER MERWE Through with the examination, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you. Mr Tait, thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair, I do not propose to lead any further evidence to support Mr Tait's amnesty application. The next applicant will be Mr W R Bellingan, who will give his evidence in Afrikaans, and he's prepared to take the oath.