amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 WILHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN AM5283/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54442&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm WILHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is sworn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr van der Merwe. EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr Bellingan, you are an applicant in this matter and your application appears on page 120 up until page 345, is that correct? MR BELLINGAN Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Do you confirm the correctness and truthfulness of your application in as far as your recollection goes? MR BELLINGAN That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Your application is specifically then contained, concerning this matter, from page 337 in the bundle. MR BELLINGAN That's correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE During this incident you were a member of Vlakplaas and you fell under the commander of the Commander, Mr Eugene de Kock. MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Do you confirm that you were not involved before in this incident and that you were only involved by Col de Kock, who gave you the instructions to participate in it? MR BELLINGAN That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Your role in this operation, can you just shortly tell the Committee what you had to do. MR BELLINGAN Mr Chairperson, I drove the covert kombi to transport the people who were involved in this, from Vlakplaas to the scene, I then waited in that area and then observed certain areas and monitored the police radio for the police and while they were busy and got into the kombi, I then took a detour and took them back to Vlakplaas. MR VAN DER MERWE In other words, you yourself were never in the building itself? MR BELLINGAN No, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr de Kock testified yesterday that you were in charge of a group of people and that you were also tasked to, I think, monitor the fire brigade. MR BELLINGAN That's correct, Chairperson, or anybody in that area who could give us any problems at that stage. MR VAN DER MERWE You confirm that in this matter you had nothing to do with Khanya House. MR BELLINGAN That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Was this the first time that you were in the area of Khanya House with an operation of this nature? MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you return back to the scene at any stage? MR BELLINGAN No, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE During the planning session that took place at Vlakplaas, can you assist us if there was an indication that they expected people to be in this building? MR BELLINGAN No, not as far as I can recall, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE The instruction that was given to you and the reason why you had to participate in this operation, what was the purpose of it? MR BELLINGAN It was to set Khanya House alight because it was used by terrorists, that was the explanation that was given to us as far as I can recall. MR VAN DER MERWE Very well. If I can just ask you briefly and if I'm not going to ask you this, my learned colleague will, your political motive to participate in this operation, appears on page 341 and the purpose was to destroy a building that was used by the ANC as a basis for the revolutionary war against the Republic of South Africa. Ms Cambanis has mentioned before that the ANC did not make use of this building but the church used it, but was this the way in which you interpreted this instruction? MR BELLINGAN Yes, that's they way I interpreted it, because we got the instruction from the Stratcom desk and I do not think they would have attacked an innocent church building, there was a reason behind it and that's how it was explained to me. MR VAN DER MERWE You yourself did not have any evidence that the ANC specifically operated from this building? MR BELLINGAN No, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE You were a footsoldier in this matter, who followed the instructions of Col de Kock, and did not have a say in the choosing of the target or the evaluation of the target. MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Nel? MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got no questions for Mr Bellingan. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER I have no questions, thank you Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER MR BUNN Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Joubert? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you, Honourable Chair, I only have one issue which I'd like to clarify. Mr Bellingan, on page 338 you refer in the first paragraph that Col de Kock also mentioned to you that Brig McIntyre, the Head of the Stratcom desk, gave him the instruction for this specific task. Mr McIntyre's evidence is that there was never any communication between him and Col de Kock, can you deny that or dispute it? MR BELLINGAN No, I cannot. MR JOUBERT And you then furthermore will accept that any instruction which you received from Col de Kock, possibly was channelled via Col Hattingh and the other persons? ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes, as I later heard. MR JOUBERT I've got no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Joubert. Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis? MR DU PLESSIS I have no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Sir, I just want to understand your answer, you said if it transpired that this wasn't used as an ANC base. MR BELLINGAN That is correct, as I mentioned on page 341, "the destruction of a building that was used by the ANC as a basis for the revolutionary warfare against the Republic" is a very wide statement. That is how I interpreted it, today they say it was not the ANC who was involved in it, but that's how I interpreted it when I applied for amnesty. MS CAMBANIS But your understanding of what your job was at that point, would be that if it wasn't the base for the ANC, then you have no reason to attack, is that how you understood your job at the time? MR BELLINGAN I received an instruction and I followed it. MS CAMBANIS Yes, Sir, I accept that, I accept your are a footsoldier and you're following instructions. MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS But why you did follow this instruction was because you were told it was an ANC base. MR BELLINGAN Yes, and I believed what they told me. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Sir, where was your kombi parked during this operation? MR BELLINGAN It was parked at various points around that block, it was Skinner, Bosman and Visagie, or Potgieter or Schubart Streets, because the police bothered me so I had to move around. I was then on the south side or north side and I moved around. MS CAMBANIS So when you were in Visagie Street you had sight of Khanya House, the main building? MR BELLINGAN Yes, it could be so, or it could have been that I drove past it in Schubart Street, I cannot say exactly where, under which tree I stood or where I was. MS CAMBANIS Yes, but could you see Khanya House from where you were, at some stage? MR BELLINGAN Yes, it could be so, I will not dispute that. MS CAMBANIS And what did you notice about the building? Lighting? MR BELLINGAN I cannot recall today, I will have to lie if I say. MS CAMBANIS You don't recall that lights were being put on and off in the building? MR BELLINGAN Not what I can recall, no. MS CAMBANIS Now Sir, this radio that you refer to at page 338, I don't understand, is that a radio that you would be in communication with Col de Kock, or is that - how does it work, this radio? MR BELLINGAN I may have had two radios for internal communication and one to monitor the police patrol frequency, because if I can hear that the stations say there's some suspicious looking characters, I could then warn them through the other radio. If you understand my answer. MS CAMBANIS Yes, thank you. The radio control with the members in the operation, was that - what kind of radio was used for that communication? MR BELLINGAN It could have been some of our security radios with a closed channel, walkie-talkies. MS CAMBANIS Yes, walkie-talkies. And that would have also been for the people who were inside on the operation? MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS And what would be the purpose of having walkie-talkie communication with the people inside the building? MR BELLINGAN It would be that if I see suspicious uniformed members or police activities outside and then they had to leave the scene immediately and I would have been able to warn them. That is why I was in contact with Col de Kock and also why I had a monitoring radio. MS CAMBANIS Because the main - your first prize is to keep your own men safe? MR BELLINGAN That is correct, yes. MS CAMBANIS And it's unthinkable that in an operation like this involving so many people, you wouldn't have planned to keep your own men safe? MR BELLINGAN Yes, that is definitely a possibility. MS CAMBANIS Yes. Mr Bellingan, on the top of 338, if I understand, what you understood from the instruction was that it was to destroy - sorry if I could just go back, just over the page "The building was used for publishing of terrorist propaganda material" MR BELLINGAN That's how I interpreted it, yes. MS CAMBANIS And the witness prior to you, Mr Tait, you don't recall that it was used as a base for the ANC cadres? What do you recall? MR BELLINGAN I will not dispute that. MS CAMBANIS But you don't recall hearing that? MR BELLINGAN No. MS CAMBANIS Could you assist us, do you know at your briefing session, was there subsequent briefing sessions? It seems to be that there were several briefing sessions to different groups. MR BELLINGAN I cannot say with certainty, but it could be that we were briefed together and also separately in different groups. MS CAMBANIS Mr de Kock has given evidence that there had been some recces carried out prior to the briefing session you attended. MR BELLINGAN It may be so that I was part of the late afternoon, driving by, just looking at what the place looks like, it could be so. It's possible that I accompanied him or went alone. I will not dispute it because I do know Pretoria, I had my own vehicle there, so it's not an impossible target that I did not know where it was. I could have gone with them on this reconnaissance. MS CAMBANIS And it's possible you were on reconnaissance, do you remember who else was on the reconnaissance? MR BELLINGAN I cannot recall today, no. MS CAMBANIS Were you told - if you look at WAL du Toit's application on page 313, he talks about the residents of the Catholic Church. MR BELLINGAN I cannot recall such a thing, no, I was never in the terrain. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Bellingan. It's become a habit with me, Mr Chair, I apologise, I have to just put something else. 274 of the bundle, Mr Bellingan - I beg your pardon, 275, the top paragraph, it refers to the visit by one, Brig Engelbrecht to Vlakplaas, do you recall being at a - do you recall Brig Engelbrecht visiting Vlakplaas after this? MR BELLINGAN I know that I saw him on Vlakplaas, if it was immediately after the incident or when it was, I cannot say with certainty. MS CAMBANIS Do you recall identikits being brought to Vlakplaas? MR BELLINGAN MS CAMBANIS And from the rumours that were going around, did you hear that it was alleged that you were recognisable in one of the identikits? MR BELLINGAN It was rumour that I heard at a later stage. MS CAMBANIS That you were identifiable, that was the rumour? MR BELLINGAN No, there was just an identikit and the one looks like me, but I never saw it. MS CAMBANIS And was the rumour also that the other identikit looked like Mr Eugene de Kock? MR BELLINGAN It's once again a rumour, I never experienced that. MS CAMBANIS But from what you heard, you agree with this applicant's information? MR BELLINGAN Yes. MS CAMBANIS Mr Bellingan, do you know who was armed - were you armed that night? MR BELLINGAN I believe I would have had my official weapon with me, a false police record. If we were confronted we would have said we were from the Diamond Branch, but I'm sure that I had my own weapon with me. MS CAMBANIS Mr Bellingan, in the bundle there's reference to a witness noticing a kombi vehicle with false registration plates. That would have been the modus operandi, Mr de Kock has already said that you would have used false ... MR BELLINGAN Yes. MS CAMBANIS That same witness refers to citing 11 persons inside the kombi and cites that were black people present, black members. MR BELLINGAN Chairperson, I cannot recall, it is possible. I do not see any of the applicants that are black, because I do know that it was a covert kombi, it was a closed one that you cannot see from the outside in and it could be that there were other people. MS CAMBANIS It's possible that some of the black members of the police were present that night? MR BELLINGAN Yes, but I cannot say with any certainty. MS CAMBANIS Yes. MR BELLINGAN I have got no recollection of it. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Bellingan. Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Before I give you an opportunity, Ms Patel, I've been requested to make an announcement that a white bakkie with the registration letters and numbers, DNC 521 NW, is blocking some way. If such a person is with us here, could you quickly just move the bakkie. Thank you, you may proceed Ms Patel. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Bellingan, just one aspect. Was there a report-back meeting after the operation, at Vlakplaas? MR BELLINGAN I believe we did gather together to hand in the weapons again, but I believe Col de Kock would have reported to somebody, it's logical, but there wasn't again a very big meeting or something like that. MS PATEL Okay. So at this meeting - the purpose of that meeting would have been just to see that everybody is safe, there wouldn't have been a report-back, as far as you recall? MR BELLINGAN Yes, and all equipment was safe, we could not leave behind a weapon or something like that. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI I've got no questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MR VAN DER MERWE No thank you, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Bellingan, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence to be adduced on behalf of Mr Bellingan, I believe that Mr Wagener will now be leading Mr du Plessis. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, the next applicant will be Mr du Plessis. You will find his application in the bundle from page 208 and onwards. He will testify in Afrikaans and he will take the oath.