amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 HENDRIK CHRISTOFFEL DU PLESSIS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54443&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm HENDRIK CHRISTOFFEL DU PLESSIS (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant has been duly sworn in. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may be seated, Mr du Plessis. Yes, Mr Wagener. EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr du Plessis, during November 1996, you completed an amnesty application which can be found in the bundle from page 208 to 219, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR WAGENER I see on page 208 you state that you are still in service of the South African Police. This was at the time that you signed your application, what is your position today? MR DU PLESSIS At the end of October 1997, I was discharged from the police due to medical reasons. MR WAGENER Very well. Pertaining to the matter that we are here for today, you deal with this from page 217 to 218 of the bundle, and I will request Mr van der Merwe just to place this before you. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER Firstly, Mr du Plessis, in the first paragraph you refer to a church building, namely Khanya House, which is in the first paragraph, can you see it? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER And then in the following paragraph you refer to a group which entered the church building and that you yourself also entered the church building and that you doused the place with petrol. Which church building are you referring to? MR DU PLESSIS I am referring to Khanya House. MR WAGENER Just to be completely certain whether or not you were involved in the same incident as the other applicants, if you look at Exhibit E, on the cover page there is a photo and then on page 2 there is also a photo, is that the place where you were? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER And then in the first paragraph on page 217 you state that you think that the incident took place during 1989, we now know that Khanya House was burnt down on the 12th of October 1988. Would you agree with that? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER Furthermore, in the first paragraph you refer that you were told that there was an earlier attempt to burn this place, namely Khanya House, that you had been informed of this, how certain are you of that? MR DU PLESSIS I think my memory has failed somewhat, I may have confused this matter with another. MR WAGENER Indeed, Mr du Plessis, we have heard evidence indicating that it was with either Khotso House or Cosatu House where there was a previous abortive attempt to attack the place, before the final attack took place. Would you dispute this? MR DU PLESSIS No, I would agree with it. MR WAGENER Then in the second paragraph on page 217 you state, or perhaps I should just take a step back. At the time of this incident you were also a member of the Vlakplaas unit. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER What was your rank at that stage? MR DU PLESSIS I was a Captain. MR WAGENER And you also served under the command of Mr de Kock. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER We heard of an occasion upon which you gathered together at Vlakplaas and received an order with regard to the current incident, were you involved or present during that? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I was. MR WAGENER What was the order that you received? MR DU PLESSIS We had to destroy Khanya House by means of arson. MR WAGENER Can you recall the reason? MR DU PLESSIS Because it was being used for revolutionary objectives by the ANC and the enemy. MR WAGENER In the second paragraph you state "We conducted thorough observation of the place" Were you involved in that observation? MR DU PLESSIS We were informed during the briefing that observation had been conducted. I cannot recall whether it was the day before or that same morning upon which I drove past the place by myself. I stopped and walked up and down on the pavement, that was my share. MR WAGENER What was the purpose with that? MR DU PLESSIS I wanted to see what the place looked like. MR WAGENER During the operation itself, what was your task? MR DU PLESSIS I was part of the group that penetrated the main building and doused the interior with petrol. MR WAGENER Did you yourself also carry petrol? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I did. MR WAGENER Where in the building were you? MR DU PLESSIS I was on the ground level and the first level. MR WAGENER Was that where you doused the area with petrol? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR WAGENER Are you aware of any explosives which were taken with that evening? MR DU PLESSIS No, I do not know about that. MR WAGENER There is apparent evidence of explosives which were found in a section of the building which was known as the documentation centre and apparently this is on the ground floor, do you know anything about this? MR DU PLESSIS I heard about it after the incident, but I don't have any further knowledge pertaining to that. MR WAGENER Furthermore, you heard the initial allegation of Mr Flores in his application that you and he were outside the building together, what is your commentary regarding that? MR DU PLESSIS No, he was not with me, I was a member of the group that entered the main building. MR WAGENER And then on page 218 of the bundle you mention the names of the persons who were present according to you, during the operation. Are you certain of these names? MR DU PLESSIS It took place a long time ago and my memory may have failed me, I may have accidentally mentioned persons in this list who in actual fact were not part of the operation. I would be prepared to conceded to that. MR WAGENER It would appear to me that you've actually omitted the names of other persons who were in actual fact there, as we now know. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR WAGENER As qualified by your evidence, do you then confirm the correctness of your written application as truthful and correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR WAGENER Thank you, Chair, that is the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Wagener. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr du Plessis, among the names that you have mentioned on page 218, the names of Paul van Dyk and Piet Snyders appear, were you here when Mr de Kock testified? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I was present. MR HATTINGH And can you recall that he said that he recalled that these two persons were indeed present? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I recall that. MR HATTINGH So according to your evidence, is it possible that they may have been there? MR DU PLESSIS I spoke to Mr Snyders upon my arrival here in Pretoria and he told me that at the time of the incident he was on study leave, but Mr van Dyk, I don't know, he may have been there. MR DU PLESSIS Then I just want to know from you, how much petrol did you have that you were planning to douse the inside of the building with? MR DU PLESSIS Every one of us carried a can, I think it was 20 litres that we carried in. MR HATTINGH How many of you were there that carried petrol in? MR DU PLESSIS It was about eight or nine of us who entered the building and every person carried a can. MR HATTINGH And the Kok brothers were the ones who unlocked the doors for you? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH Can you recall the position with regard to lighting in the building, when you first entered the building? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot think or recall that there was light, but as far as I recall no lights were on. MR HATTINGH The only light came from the street lamps which shone in through the windows from the outside. MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR HATTINGH Did that provide sufficient light for you to be able to see what you were doing? MR DU PLESSIS We walked around in the dark there, along with the light that came from the street lamps. MR HATTINGH Did you have any precautions in order to render the operation as quiet as possible, or did you move about comfortably, safe in the knowledge that no-one was in the building? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH Is it the latter-mentioned? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH You accepted that were not people in the building. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH And therefore you didn't take any measures to soften your voices or to avoid any noise as such? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you communicate with one another from long distances, such as 10 to 15 metres from one another? MR DU PLESSIS Not that I can recall. MR HATTINGH Do you recall that you went to the first floor? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR HATTINGH Can you recall whether there were any persons higher up in the building, according to what you can remember seeing? MR DU PLESSIS No, I don't know about any other persons who moved higher up in the building. MR HATTINGH And after the operation at any stage, did you hear that there had indeed been persons in the building at the time of the incident? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you surprised at this knowledge? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I was. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr van der Merwe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chair. Mr du Plessis, just one statement that I would like to put. You have already conceded, and I'm also appearing on behalf of Dave Baker, my instructions in this regard are that he was not involved in this incident, but that he was involved in another similar incident but not this one precisely, and you are not certain whether or not he was there. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Mr Nel? MR NEL Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Yes, Sir? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BUNN Mr du Plessis, just one question relating to page 218, obviously my client, Mr Ras isn't there, you'd concede that you might very well be incorrect and he was involved? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct, Chairperson. As I've already stated, there are persons who have testified before the Committee, who were indeed there, whom I could not recall when I compiled my application, so I would concede that my memory has indeed failed me. MR BUNN Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN CHAIRPERSON Thanks a lot. Mr Joubert? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JOUBERT Thank you, Chairperson, only one aspect. Mr du Plessis, you have already stated on page 217 of your evidence-in-chief that there was a previous abortive attempt to burn the place down. I just want to confirm with you, it is my instruction from Mr McIntyre that there was no such previous attempt by Stratcom on Khanya House. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, I concede that I have perhaps made a mistake. MR JOUBERT Than you, Chairperson, nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr du Plessis? ADV DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions and insofar as I'm looking after the interests of my learned friend, Mr Lamey, there are no questions in that regard either. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Mr du Plessis, the amount of petrol that was taken into Khanya House that evening by yourself and your colleagues, do you have any idea how much that was? MR DU PLESSIS I think that every person carried a 20 litre can. MS CAMBANIS And were there instructions to pour petrol on each and every floor of the building? MR DU PLESSIS If I recall correctly, yes. MS CAMBANIS And how was this going to be set alight? MR DU PLESSIS I heard that it would be done by means of an ignition cord. MS CAMBANIS And that would be from each floor? MR DU PLESSIS No, not as far as I can recall. I cannot testify about that, I don't know how it would have been done. MS CAMBANIS You see, unfortunately we don't have the police docket but apparently the fire brigade reports would be that there was this from the outside of the building up unto second floor. MR DU PLESSIS It may have been like that, Chairperson, I cannot testify about it, I simply poured the petrol out, I didn't have anything to do with the ignition itself. MS CAMBANIS It would be - and if there was in fact petrol on all the floors with this ignition tape, once it was lit, what would you expect to have happened to that building? Isn't it that within minutes it would be ... MR DU PLESSIS It is possible that it could have burnt down like that, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS And were you aware that there was a fire brigade just one or two blocks away from Khanya House? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not know about that. MS CAMBANIS Subsequently, did you hear that the fire brigade was on the scene, very shortly after the fire was reported? MR DU PLESSIS I heard that, I don't know if it was the same evening or the day after the incident, but I heard that they were present there. MS CAMBANIS In your experience would you have expected that building to burn out in a very short period of time, with the amount of petrol and preparation that had gone into setting the fire? MR DU PLESSIS I think so, Chairperson, I would not be able to say how quickly, but it would have been like that. MS CAMBANIS Quickly, meaning minutes? MR DU PLESSIS No, such a large building would not burn down in a question of minutes. MS CAMBANIS We understand from the reports that we don't have, that it's the opinion of the fire brigade that it would have actually have been burnt out very rapidly. Can you disagree with that? MR DU PLESSIS I would not be able to make any statements on that, but it certainly is possible. MS CAMBANIS And similarly that had the fire brigade not been on the scene as quickly as it was, due to its location, people would have been trapped and died in the building. MR DU PLESSIS It could have been that way, yes Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Now you say that you think you attended some of the surveillance. Did you say that? MR DU PLESSIS No. MS CAMBANIS No. You did your own surveillance? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS What did you observe when you walked past Khanya House? MR DU PLESSIS I only saw the building, I didn't see any movement or anything else, there was nothing else that I observed on the premises, it was simply the building standing there. MS CAMBANIS I think this happened on a Wednesday, it was a week day. MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall, it must be. MS CAMBANIS It definitely wasn't over the weekend. MR DU PLESSIS No. MS CAMBANIS And what did you do, you walked on the pavement outside Khanya House? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I simply walked past so that I could see what the building looked like, that was the extent of my observation. MS CAMBANIS Morning, afternoon, when was that? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall, I really don't know. MS CAMBANIS But during daylight? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MS CAMBANIS And you didn't see anybody in that building? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not observe anything. MS CAMBANIS You will recall that there were open balconies at that time at Khanya House? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot recall. MS CAMBANIS Look at page 2 of Exhibit E, please. Do you see the second floor? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I see it. MS CAMBANIS The first and second floor's got open balconies and it's in fact on that second floor where people were sleeping that night, some on this side, on various side, but we'll get to that. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I see it on the photo. MS CAMBANIS You didn't see anyone moving around on the balconies? MR DU PLESSIS No, I didn't look that way. MS CAMBANIS Or in the yard? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not see anybody in the yard. MS CAMBANIS Or in the offices on the ground floor? MR DU PLESSIS Not at all. MS CAMBANIS Sir, just explain more fully, at 217 where Mr Wagener has already asked you, your reference "We conducted thorough surveillance of the place" Now as an operative at Vlakplaas, that would be the modus operandi, before an operation there would be surveillance of the area? That's what one would expect. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Do you know of any operation where this procedure wasn't followed? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot imagine anything like that. MS CAMBANIS And in this case you were briefed that thorough observation had been done? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And that would include - sorry, would that include entering the building to check the layout of the building? MR DU PLESSIS From previous evidence before the Committee I've heard that such surveillance was conducted, but I was not involved with that, I wasn't part of that, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Because Mr du Plessis, what we still do not understand is the second and third floors were sleeping quarters and if anyone had have entered, they would have seen very clearly that there were bedrooms on the second and third floor. MR DU PLESSIS I would concede that it could have been that way, if someone entered the premises they would have seen that. MS CAMBANIS You've also explained that you were told it was a "kerk gebou'. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, a church building, Khanya. I don't know precisely how to express it, but Khanya House is actually what I meant in my application. MS CAMBANIS But what you said at 215, which you've already been taken through "Received an order" fourth paragraph. "Received an order to set a church building in Pretoria on fire" And then you repeat that on page 217, relating to the second incident. MR DU PLESSIS What I actually mean is a building which belonged to the church, that is what I meant. MS CAMBANIS That is what you mean today? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS Mr du Plessis, which of your colleagues went onto the second and third floor that evening? MR DU PLESSIS I would not be able to testify about that, I really don't know. MS CAMBANIS But the instructions were to go onto the second and third floor? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Did you see, even though you can't remember who, that people did move to the second and third floor? Or the second floor, at least. MR DU PLESSIS I didn't see anybody who went up there, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Mr Kok in his application says that his task was to open the doors, including on the first floor - Chairperson, I just want to get the reference. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Page 120, Mr du Plessis. Sorry, if you can just start at 119, page 119 at the bottom he says that his instructions were to open all the doors on the first floor so that the operatives from Vlakplaas could search the offices. Did Mr Kok carry out this instruction, did he open up the doors on the first floor? You were on the first floor, you said. MR DU PLESSIS I was there, he unlocked the doors. MS CAMBANIS Yes, and then the offices were searched? MR DU PLESSIS No, our order was to pour the petrol out, we did not search any rooms or offices, there wasn't any time for that anyway. MS CAMBANIS So what happened is that the doors were opened and then you and the other operatives would go into the offices, throw petrol and then go to the next one, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MS CAMBANIS And that was what your instructions were for the first floor, second floor and third floor? MR DU PLESSIS Correct. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chair, that is all. Thank you, Mr du Plessis. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Cambanis. Ms Patel? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just one question, Mr du Plessis. Can you recall whether the igniting cord, Mr Kok says that was wound or it was put on the different levels including the place where the printing press was kept, do you have any recollection of this, can you confirm? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot answer that no, I do not know. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI No questions, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, no, I've got no re-examination, but I would request, on request of Mr du Plessis, he has business to attend to in Kimberly, whether he would be excused from further attendance, if there's no objection? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Any objection? MR HATTINGH No objection, thank you Mr Chairman. MR VAN DER MERWE No objection, Mr Chairman. MR WAGENER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr du Plessis, you are excused from further attendance of these proceedings. WITNESS EXCUSED MR WAGENER Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence by and on behalf of Mr du Plessis. CHAIRPERSON Ms Patel, yesterday you spoke of documents and I stopped you because when you addressed me on that Ms Cambanis was outside taking instructions, this I think is an opportune moment to do so. MS PATEL Yes, thank you Honourable Chairperson. Ms Cambanis, what I'd placed on record yesterday was that I'd in fact obtained the report that you had requested in respect of the missing docket and that a copy of the report was handed to you and that you were satisfied with the contents of the report. MS CAMBANIS I confirm that, thank you Chair. MR HATTINGH May we also have sight of that report, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Well especially Mr Wagener, Chairperson, it actually concerns his client, Mr Engelbrecht. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. Do you have sufficient copies, Ms Patel? MS PATEL I'll have to have extras made, Honourable Chairperson, I'll attend to it now during the lunch break. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Chairman, I thought that at this stage we would have reached openness that these things would be given to us so that we don't have to ask for it. CHAIRPERSON I closed it yesterday, it was open. Ms Patel, I'll give you an opportunity to make those copies and not impinge on your lunch time. We'll take our lunch adjournment earlier today. Thank you, we'll adjourn until? 0What do you suggest, one thirty? Is that okay with everybody? MR JOUBERT Mr Chair, sorry, you will recall I requested you to excuse me at about quarter to one, I have a consultation at one with my leader, I'm just afraid I may not be back by half past one, I anticipated that you'd only be adjourning at 1 o'clock. If I could request that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Quarter to two? MR JOUBERT I'll do my best to be back by quarter to two, otherwise I'll make arrangements with one of my colleagues just to keep watch for me for the few minutes that I may be absent, with your approval. CHAIRPERSON Well we would reconvene at quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We are proceeding with this hearing. I'm in the hands of legal representatives not to break the agreement they had reached. I shall be guided by the legal representatives who is next to testify. MR VAN DER MERWE Very well, Mr Chairman, Francois van der Merwe on record, the next applicant will be Wybrand Andreas Lodewikus du Toit, and he will be giving his testimony in Afrikaans and he will take the oath.