amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-08-30 PRETORIA 11 JAKOBUS KOK AM3811/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=54446&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/2000/200830pt.htm JAKOBUS KOK (sworn states) ADV BOSMAN The applicant is sworn in, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may take a seat, Mr Kok. Mr van der Merwe? EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Kok, you confirm that your application in this bundle appears on page 108 up and to page 127, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE You also confirm that like your brother in this application, you compiled it yourself without the assistance of any legal representatives. MR J KOK That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE The application then appears - or with the specific details of this incident, on page 116, do you confirm that? MR J KOK Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE You have already heard the evidence of your brother who testified before you and you do confirm that at that stage you were also a member of the staff of Mr du Toit, who already testified, and that you served under his command, do you confirm that? MR J KOK Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE And insofar as it pertains to your brother's evidence, you also confirm that? MR J KOK Yes, I do. MR VAN DER MERWE In this matter you were approached to lend assistance in this instruction and this instruction came from Head Office. MR J KOK That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Your involvement in this matter directly related to access control or possibilities for the purposes of this operation. MR J KOK Yes, I was a support for my brother. MR VAN DER MERWE You also confirm that in the area of the picking of locks, your brother is a bit more capable than you are? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE If we can then continue. You were not involved at all with regards to the target identification of this operation? MR J KOK Yes. MR VAN DER MERWE You were also at no stage involved in the reconnaissance beforehand in order to analyse the target? MR J KOK No, I wasn't. MR VAN DER MERWE Your involvement took place at the stage when this operation was launched and you had to go and act that evening. MR J KOK That is correct. MR VAN DER MERWE Can you tell us what your specific instructions were, what did you have to go and do that evening? MR J KOK Well it was very clear, Mr Chairperson, I was tasked by my brother to lend support in the access to the building and my instruction was to open all the doors on the first floor and that is where it stopped. MR VAN DER MERWE In the run-up to the operation that evening you also assisted in the preparation of the petrol that was placed in containers. MR J KOK Yes, we provided them with containers for the petrol and the petrol was mixed on the premises and we also assisted there. MR VAN DER MERWE On page 119 of the record, paragraph 2.4.4, you wrote "My instruction and support for J F Kok was to open all doors that were locked on the first floor, so that the operatives of Vlakplaas can search them." Can you confirm that that was your instructions? MR J KOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was not quite searching but more a scan, if I can put it that way, it was a scan for documents in the offices. If they saw anything that could contain any information they had to seize it. MR VAN DER MERWE In the process that evening everything happened very quickly, is that correct? MR J KOK Yes, as far as I can recall, yes. MR VAN DER MERWE How long would you say was the longest time that you spent in the building? Or the time you spent there in total. MR J KOK I would say 10 to 15 minutes. MR VAN DER MERWE Mr Kok when he testified said or had the opinion that he was not aware that instructions were given that offices had to be searched, do you have any knowledge if some of the offices were searched that evening or not? MR J KOK People did scan documents and documents were removed. I can also expect that there was some record or document removed, and what happened to that I do not know, Mr Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you at any stage move to any other floor or work on any other floor but the one where you were? MR J KOK No, Mr Chairperson, my instructions were the first floor and I stayed on the first floor. MR VAN DER MERWE You also confirm your instruction to me that was initially wrong or that I made a mistake where I said that the electricity on the first floor was switched off, is that correct? MR J KOK With our consultation on Sunday, and I did not mention it in my statement but with the recollection by the evidence that was given, because it happened 12 years ago, I did recall that our modus operandi was to work in the dark. On the floor on which I worked I did switch off the electricity because I didn't want to be caught kneeling in front of a door with the lights on. MR VAN DER MERWE Well at that stage when you launched this operation, were you at any stage aware of the fact that there would be people in this building? MR J KOK No, I was no stage aware of the fact that there would be people in the building. I did not know Khanya House at all, I did not know what happened there and I just executed my instructions and that is that. MR VAN DER MERWE You also confirm the motivation and the reason why you participated in this operation, was that you were under the impression that this institute was part of a struggle against the government and that they assisted people from this premises. MR J KOK Yes, that's how I understood it the day that I was briefed or was given the task to execute this operation. I also associated myself one hundred percent with this. I went to go and fight the struggle. MR VAN DER MERWE Did you not find it strange that this was a church building or organisation who was part of this target or who formed a target of this instruction? MR J KOK No, Mr Chairperson, it was not strange. I was also involved in the South West conflict and there the churches on a regular basis, lent assistance to the terrorists. And if I can refer to my political motive, the SACP in Setchaba made certain proclamations that the general public will move over or moved over to warfare. "A war in which the entire nation is engaged. Umkhonto weSizwe, the people's army, workers, the rural masses." CHAIRPERSON Where are you reading from? MR VAN DER MERWE It's page 124. I beg your pardon, Chairperson, page 124. MR J KOK "MK, the peoples army, workers, the rural masses, women, intellectuals, the religious community, selectively in groups or as organised individuals who used all forms of revolutionary warfare, armed or non-combat, legal and illegal means to attack and destroy all symbols, structures and organs of apartheid power, including all those who manned them." So I saw it as war and that was part of my motivation, Chairperson. MR VAN DER MERWE In this matter you did not have direct information about what was going on in Khanya House and there relied on people higher up in the hierarchy and on information that they received. MR J KOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, that is correct. The target identification, the analysing and the decision to act in this regard had already been taken. We were a support unit and we were tasked to lend that support to an operational group. ...(transcriber's interpretation) MR VAN DER MERWE You heard that they referred to, on page 120, paragraph 3.5 where you say that "Fire ignition cord was used in the different levels" MR J KOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. I heard that when we withdrew that there was a - they left a cord on the ground floor up to the printing press. If I'm talking about the levels, it's the ground floor and the first floor. This is Afrikaans that I'm using. MR VAN DER MERWE May I ask you if at any stage you were on the second or the third floor of the building? MR J KOK No, at no stage. MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. There will be apparent evidence that there was a door which was locked on the second floor but later was found to be unlocked and based upon the conclusion of your evidence-in-chief, you did not go to the second floor to open a lock there. MR J KOK No, there wasn't any time for that. MR HATTINGH And you didn't see your brother go there either? MR J KOK I did not see him there at any point. I didn't see him, I knew that he was busy on the ground floor, I was focusing on my task. MR HATTINGH And when you moved out from the first floor, did you exit via the same door that you entered with? MR J KOK Yes, that is as far as my memory serves me. MR HATTINGH And can you recall whether or not you saw your brother on the ground floor? Could you see whether he was going out of the door or whether he had already left by the time you arrived there? MR J KOK We were some of the last people who left the building, because we withdrew after the guys on the ground floor withdrew. It happened quite quickly. MR HATTINGH So by the time you got to the ground floor there were no more of the group that was working on the ground floor left? MR J KOK If I recall correctly, some of the guys were already at the vehicle that we were going to use to get away from the scene. MR HATTINGH These persons who were dousing the first floor with petrol, were they different members than those that were dousing the ground floor with petrol, or did the same team work on the both floors? MR J KOK It is difficult to answer, it may be that some of the ground floor team served the first floor as well. I would recall that Snor was with me on the first floor, because I heard his name at a certain point. I didn't really notice who was dousing petrol. MR HATTINGH You heard his name while you were busy on the first floor? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH From that I infer that people were talking to one another. MR J KOK Yes, there was communication. MR HATTINGH And were they speaking in a regular tone of voice? MR J KOK Somewhat silenced but regular, yes. MR HATTINGH In your background as you have summarised it in your application, I do not find an indication that you yourself completed a lock-picking course, was that an oversight, or did you indeed complete such formal training in lock-picking, similar to what your brother had? MR J KOK That is correct, Chairperson, I did not receive formal training at the same institution as him, I actually received it from him. MR HATTINGH Is that why you say that he was much better qualified in those techniques than what you were? MR J KOK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Hattingh. Mr Nel? MR NEL Mr Kok, just one question. After your brother testified, I asked your attorney but apparently he is just as ignorant as I am, what is a "tap gatslot"? MR J KOK It is a regular clover lock, it is one that one would use for the regular house keys. MR NEL Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Wagener? MR WAGENER Chairman, I have no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions further? MR BUNN Thank you Mr Chairman, no I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BUNN CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR JOUBERT Joubert on record. Thank you, Mr Chair, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JOUBERT CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, just one question. Mr Kok, as I understand your application, paragraph 3.3, your brother Japie achieved the first line of access in unlocking the locks, that first line would be the access from the outside to the premises. MR J KOK If I recall correctly, Chairperson, we were dropped off in Skinner Street, I'm not certain but there was a steel gate that had to be opened first and then after the steel gate there were a number of doors, so it wouldn't really help if we stopped at the first or the second door and all of us stood there not knowing what to do. So he established the first line of access. MR LAMEY That was our terminology and that is where Mr Nortje provided the necessary assistance? MR J KOK That is correct. MR LAMEY But inside the building it wasn't necessary for Mr Nortje to provide backup, because he wasn't in the building? MR J KOK He must have been in the building, Chairperson, because the order was to watch his back, so if he wasn't in the building, he wouldn't be doing his job. MR LAMEY But are you certain of that or are you uncertain, because my instructions from Mr Nortje are that he did not enter the building himself? MR J KOK I cannot differ from him, I could concede, but if someone is given an order to provide backup, you would have to do so at all times. Going into the building and working there would be dangerous because the unforeseen could always happen. If he says that he didn't go into the building, I cannot dispute it. MR LAMEY But at that stage there were also other Vlakplaas members in the building. MR J KOK Yes, but they were busy with their own tasks. MR LAMEY Very well. I put it to you that his recollection is that he did not enter the building, but that he was outside. MR J KOK I cannot dispute it. MR LAMEY Then it would appear to me that some of the members remained behind to light the ignition and that the others left, is that correct? MR J KOK I cannot say, I don't have any recollection of who ignited the ignition cord or how they did it, at what stage they did it. As far as I can recall we withdrew, the operational group which was in the printing press withdrew and we left in the two minibuses. I don't know who remained behind and why. MR LAMEY You don't know if this was some sort of final action which was necessary to light the ignition cord and that it would be necessary for certain individuals, one or two, to remain there? MR J KOK It was logical that it was the final action, because one couldn't simply light the cord, there was quite a high level of evaporation, so the fire was going to be quite severe. That would have been the final action, I don't who specifically remained behind. MR LAMEY Would you have to be a safe distance from the premises once this was going to happen? MR J KOK Yes, that is why there was a delay mechanism mentioned. MR LAMEY Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. He wouldn't have asked questions, would he? MR DU PLESSIS No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Cornelius? MR CORNELIUS I don't have any questions, thank you, Mr Chair. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Chair. Sir, did I right that you said that you did switch the light off on the first floor? MR J KOK It certainly must be so. It wasn't a light, it was the main switch that I switched off. MS CAMBANIS And you said because you didn't want to be caught standing outside a door picking the lock? MR J KOK Yes, that is correct. MS CAMBANIS That you refer on the first floor? MR J KOK In the area where I worked, definitely. MS CAMBANIS Who did you think would be able to catch you standing outside a door? MR J KOK We were not speculating about who would apprehend us, it's just a modus operandi, it was a standard working procedure, we knew that we were working at night, because we had to do this work when it was dark. MS CAMBANIS But you were on the first floor or an unoccupied building, on your evidence. MR J KOK I did not say that I knew that there was someone there or not, the unforeseen could always take place. The police had barracks on the opposite side in Potgieter Street and on the other side there was a petrol station with workers, the mint was there, there were all sorts of movements, so we were always prepared for the unforeseen. MS CAMBANIS Yes Sir, but you were on the first floor, why were you worried if you were on the first floor, of being caught? MR J KOK Chairperson, the office that I was supposed to open might have an access to the street and if there was a light burning at 11 o'clock at night and someone from the street could see it, it would not be to our advantage. MS CAMBANIS Yes, that's true, but you said you did not want to be caught standing at the door. MR J KOK Chairperson, I hope that we are not engaging in semantics, but it was standard if I were to gain illegal access to a building I would do as much as possible to protect myself and that was my manner of doing so. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Kok. You were at the briefing at Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR J KOK During the last presentation or briefing session before the deployment, yes, that evening. MS CAMBANIS And is it your understanding that the entire building had to be damaged and burnt? From that briefing session. MR J KOK Yes, Chairperson, it had to be damaged, it should be rendered unusable. MS CAMBANIS Including the second and third floors? MR J KOK It was a necessary consequence of the fire, Chairperson. MS CAMBANIS Yes Sir, in Exhibit E page 5, just above the much quoted Brother Jude, he refers to the fact that the corridors of the ground floor and the first and second floors were doused with an inflammable liquid, he speculates probably petrol and paraffin. MR VAN DER MERWE May we just ascertain where exactly on that page? CHAIRPERSON Page 5. MS CAMBANIS Above the ...(inaudible) MR VAN DER MERWE Thank you. MS CAMBANIS Do you have any comment to make? MR J KOK Chairperson, as I have stated, I did not have any involvement in the pouring of the petrol, my task was exclusively to deal with the locks. Whether it was thrown or not, I cannot say. MS CAMBANIS Did you yourself ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr van der Merwe. Did you observe anyone moving to the second or higher floors? MR J KOK Chairperson, my brother also mentioned it earlier, it was dark, one would be using both one's hands to do the job and one would have a torch in the mouth, one couldn't concentrate on anything other than that, so I cannot tell you who did what. I heard Snor's name, I saw George Hammond once on the first floor and that is all. MS CAMBANIS Thank you, Mr Kok. Thank you, Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Patel? MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Bosman? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Advocate Sandi? ADV SANDI No questions, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any re-examination? MR VAN DER MERWE No thank you, Mr Chair. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Kok, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VAN DER MERWE That concludes the evidence on behalf of Mr Kok, and my act of leading of witnesses at this hearing. Thank you, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We are a few minutes before four, tomorrow, it's a request that was made last week that we should commence at quarter past eleven tomorrow. We shall commence at quarter past eleven, and I could I implore members of the Correctional Service that they make such arrangements. We adjourn for the day. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS